I think flying camps is causing crossess to be softer(lbs)?

[juanlee337]

Hi all i have gamma x-2(drop weight with flying clamps) and i been noticing that my mains are high but at least are pretty consistent but my crosses although consistent are much lower tension than mains and I believe this is caused by flying clamps . I do 48 lbs on both mains and crosses . Gamma tension tester tool shows that my tension shows around 54 bls on mains but crosses are 44 lbs. 10lbs difference between main and cross seems pretty wide . I am not worred about the lbs accuracy as this testing testing tool is provides relative weight , but the difference between the lbs between cross and main is worrysome.
I tried my best and pull the cross twice and let it sit on drop weight for at least 30 seconds so it stretches and also straighten out the strings while tension pulling. but still seems to be ending up softer.

anybody else this issue? how do I fix this? should I just add more lbs on crosses?

 

[jim e]

Are your cross strings straight when you pull tension? If they are curved and straighten later, you will lose tension.

 

[juanlee337]

Are your cross strings straight when you pull tension? If they are curved and straighten later, you will lose tension.

I straighten my corssess during tension pulling so I can get is more accurate but still not accurate. I also pull twice.

 

[esm]

Can I ask how many floating clamps do you use for the crosses?

 

[juanlee337]

Can I ask how many floating clamps do you use for the crosses?

just one

 

[Irvin]

The Gamma tension tester, like the Tournament StringMeter, are not calibrated to accurately measure cross string tension. No matter how you string the racket the crosses will always measure lower than the mains. You X-2 has nothing to do with it.

 

[juanlee337]

The Gamma tension tester, like the Tournament StringMeter, are not calibrated to accurately measure cross string tension. No matter how you string the racket the crosses will always measure lower than the mains. You X-2 has nothing to do with it.

really? why is this? i mean, its just sideways right? what is the difference?

 

[struggle]

The Gamma tension tester, like the Tournament StringMeter, are not calibrated to accurately measure cross string tension. No matter how you string the racket the crosses will always measure lower than the mains. You X-2 has nothing to do with it.

Yes, please elaborate. It’s called a Stringmeter, not a MainStringmeter.

I look forward to your response. Please incorporate some basic physics and factual info into your description on why the device only properly works on mains.

FWIW, I’d say the crosses are lower due to the friction when pulling through the mains and it has zero to do with the device knowing the difference between mains and crosses.

But I’d love to hear your dissertation on your statement above. Thanks in advance.

 

[juanlee337]

FWIW, I’d say the crosses are lower due to the friction when pulling through the mains and it has zero to do with the device knowing the difference between mains and crosses.

why would only have friction on the crosses and not on the mains?

 

[Slasher]

No matter how you string the racket the crosses will always measure lower than the mains.

Mains are typically strung first.

Crosses are typically strung last.

Because the crosses weave under and over the mains, I have always doubted whether the intended target tension by a restringing machine can ever be the true tension the crosses are strung to given the drag and friction with the mains.

If that is true, then the intended tension by a restringing machine needs to be higher for the crosses to compensate.

But, by how much? That is the $64,000 question.

Maybe one of you should try stringing the crosses at around 10lb or 15lb higher on the crosses than the mains and see what the meter says after that.

The International Tennis Federation stipulates the hitting surface shall not exceed 39.4cm (15.5") in overall length, and 29.2cm (11.5") in overall width.

Most frames extend out to the maximum overall width of 29.2cm (11.5") for the hitting surface - so whatever correction factors are found, it should be reasonably accurate and universal - although not completely - as the surfaces of each of the different strings have different coefficients of friction.

It is interesting the top professionals usually string polyester on the crosses at a lower tension and natural gut on the mains at a higher tension - 3lb difference for Djokovic.

I wonder if the natural gut mains don't drag as much with the polyester crosses and this is why many of the top professionals prefer the hybrid setup because it gives them some uniformity for the crosses and mains - when combined.

In theory, if you did a two piece restringing and did the crosses first, the meter should accurately show the tension if it is accurate at all and has been correctly calibrated - for the crosses.

I don't think the meter will accurately give a true tension as the drag at the woven crossover points will create inaccuracies.

It is an International Tennis Federation regulation the crosses and mains must be woven between adjacent strings in an under / over continuous sequence.

 

[Slasher]

After a restringing, my crosses are never straight and parallel - they are always wavy - although the mains stay reasonably straight and wavy.

After I receive it back from the restringer, I always have to straighten them - especially the crosses - and the mains a little too - especially the outer mains.

 

[esgee48]

The string [on the cross] that is between the flying clamp and the frame will always be less than ref tension. With fixed clamps, you can get really close to the frame. Not so with flying clamps. When you pull tension on the next cross, you move the string up and down, then straight to remove the effects of string friction. If you now clamp, you still have a section of string on the previous cross that is less than ref tension [capstan effect]. To fix that, you should let your DW continue to pull as you remove the previous flying clamp and jiggle that section, move the string under tension up/down, then clamp the pulled string. That's why fixed clamps are so much better than regular flying clamps.

If you receive a racquet back with crooked crosses, I would find a different stringer. When you straighten the crosses, they are not even close to ref tension.

 

[Slasher]

When you pull tension on the next cross, you move the string up and down, then straight to remove the effects of string friction.

I don't see how that would relieve drag / friction?

At least not when the full tension of the drop weight or continuous tension pull matters.

 

[BenC]

I don't see how that would relieve drag / friction?

At least not when the full tension of the drop weight or continuous tension pull matters.

Someone will probably say it better than I can, but each main/cross intersection has friction resisting the pull of the tensioner (drop weight or otherwise). Jiggling the string changes the static friction to (lower) sliding friction which will allow the sections of the cross furthest from the tensioner to be more fully tensioned. I've found this matters more with 'stickier' string like synthetic gut - in some cases you can see the drop weight arm fall further after jiggling.

Separately, when the crosses are tensioned they will bend the mains out of place, applying further tension to them. Some amount of the tension that was applied to the crosses will be applied to the mains. Try using a tension tester on the mains before and after stringing the crosses. Or, use it on the crosses before and after cutting out the mains on a racquet you're about to restring.

 

[Slasher]

Are you referring to the case in which the crosses and the mains are the same single piece of string?

Or are you referring to the case in which the crosses are one single piece of string and the mains are another single piece of string?

Yes, I have been helpfully informed of the technique described in the first paragraph of your aforestated post. In theory, it could help a little. However, I am not entirely convinced it will completely overcome the friction and drag.

Many on here believe the crosses and mains do not even out and it is impossible to even them out - even when they are strung in one single piece because when you hit, the strings vibrate and shake and the wiggle helps overcome the friction and drag in the grommets.

I wonder if when using a continuous tension restringing machine if it would be helpful to select the prestretch or overstretch function of between say 7.5% and 15% for the crosses and this would negate the drag and friction?

A continuous tension restringing machine seems to have closer tensions on the mains and crosses when strung to the same target tension without the overstretch function.

 

[Dags]

Hi all i have gamma x-2(drop weight with flying clamps) and i been noticing that my mains are high but at least are pretty consistent but my crosses although consistent are much lower tension than mains and I believe this is caused by flying clamps . I do 48 lbs on both mains and crosses . Gamma tension tester tool shows that my tension shows around 54 bls on mains but crosses are 44 lbs. 10lbs difference between main and cross seems pretty wide . I am not worred about the lbs accuracy as this testing testing tool is provides relative weight , but the difference between the lbs between cross and main is worrysome.
I tried my best and pull the cross twice and let it sit on drop weight for at least 30 seconds so it stretches and also straighten out the strings while tension pulling. but still seems to be ending up softer.

anybody else this issue? how do I fix this? should I just add more lbs on crosses?

Don't overthink this. Do you like how the racquet plays? Then leave it how it is. Do you want the crosses to be tighter? Increase the tension. Pulling the crosses twice, waiting for an unknown period of time - these are unnecessary, and will make your results less repeatable.

Measuring tools have their place, but really it's just for consistency between string jobs. Performance on court should be your primary yardstick.

After a restringing, my crosses are never straight and parallel - they are always wavy - although the mains stay reasonably straight and wavy.

After I receive it back from the restringer, I always have to straighten them - especially the crosses - and the mains a little too - especially the outer mains.

You just have a lazy stringer.

 

[Rabbit]

why would only have friction on the crosses and not on the mains?

The mains don’t touch anything but the grommets during installation ergo the tension on them is closer to reference.

 

[Trinity110]

First, can we agree that the number the Tournastringer comes up with is a useful reference number for comparison, string job to string job, or over time on a racquet, but it is not meant to point out a failure in a machine that is actually pulling accurate tension.

If we don't worry about that, let's refer to a string job with machine tension at 60#. Best machine in the world, best stringer. The mains are pulled first. Care is taken over every silly millimeter of possible tension loss with crossovers, tie offs, just like we all do. Then what happens? These rude cross strings come along and bend the mains into a crooked path, up and down, up and down, 18-20 times. What was once a straight shot, top to bottom has been made tortuous, adding tension. The crosses also are following a crooked path, but it is along that path that our good stringer and machine set those strings' tension. So their initial tension state does not get distorted like the mains.

So when a player, John Doe, or Jane Grand-Slam, says they love their racquet at 60#, they really love the end result of the machine being set at 60#. The mains have a higher tension. But the stringbed stiffness is what plays.

That's how I see it.

 

[am1899]

Assuming same reference tension setting on the machine (or even a slight differential), the crosses won’t be pulled as tight as the mains. Largely this is due to the friction of the crosses being woven against the mains. Trying to overcome that friction (“jiggling”) and forcing the crosses as close to straight as possible are good practice to maximize cross tension. But don’t overthink this or adjust the tension setting on your machine on account of it alone - all things created equal, the crosses aren’t supposed to be as tight as the mains.

Many on here believe the crosses and mains do not even out and it is impossible to even them out - even when they are strung in one single piece because when you hit, the strings vibrate and shake and the wiggle helps overcome the friction and drag in the grommets.

Here we go. We don’t believe that’s the case. We know it is.

 

[Rabbit]

Assuming same reference tension setting on the machine (or even a slight differential), the crosses won’t be pulled as tight as the mains. Largely this is due to the friction of the crosses being woven against the mains. Trying to overcome that friction (“jiggling”) and forcing the crosses as close to straight as possible are good practice to maximize cross tension. But don’t overthink this or adjust the tension setting on your machine on account of it alone - all things created equal, the crosses aren’t supposed to be as tight as the mains.



Here we go. We don’t believe that’s the case. We know it is.

Along those lines, a tour stringer, Tom Parry suggested to me long ago that stringing the crosses 4 - 6 pounds looser than the mains would lengthen dwell time thereby increasing pocketing and spin. I tried it once and loved it, so I still string the crosses looser than the mains by 4 pounds these days. I also play Yonex now and they used to require crosses strung 5% looser than mains. I think this was due to breakage as their frames used to be much squarer than they are now.

I took the liberty of bolding part of @am1899 's post. Trust me, I've been so guilty of this but the worst thing you can do for your tennis is overthink your gear. The best players worry about their game, not their gear.

 

[am1899]

Along those lines, a tour stringer, Tom Parry suggested to me long ago that stringing the crosses 4 - 6 pounds looser than the mains would lengthen dwell time thereby increasing pocketing and spin. I tried it once and loved it, so I still string the crosses looser than the mains by 4 pounds these days. I also play Yonex now and they used to require crosses strung 5% looser than mains. I think this was due to breakage as their frames used to be much squarer than they are now.

I took the liberty of bolding part of @am1899 's post. Trust me, I've been so guilty of this but the worst thing you can do for your tennis is overthink your gear. The best players worry about their game, not their gear.

Indeed @Rabbit. I happen to string for a former Fed Cup player. She likes the overall stringbed to be tight - high 50’s, full poly. But, she always requests the crosses 2lbs looser. She explained to me exactly what you articulated from Tom Parry.

Different strokes for different folks, though. Another Fed Cup player I strung for a couple times, some lady named Seles (some might have heard of her? ), she requested the same tension throughout - 69 pounds with Tecnifibre TGV, on an oversized Yonex.

 

[Rabbit]

@am1899 Yep, as I've mentioned (probably ad nauseum) on here before, I had a player who wanted her strings at 86 (86 because that was the max tension on a Wise). She played with Lux Alu and broke two sets a day (just amazing). The 3rd year I strung for her, she had backed that down to 75. Note that she had moved from a 16 X 18 pattern to a 16 X 19. The third year I strung for her she brought me her frames the first day and she said "OK, 75 this year....aren't you proud of me?"

 

[Cup8489]

After a restringing, my crosses are never straight and parallel - they are always wavy - although the mains stay reasonably straight and wavy.

After I receive it back from the restringer, I always have to straighten them - especially the crosses - and the mains a little too - especially the outer mains.

Time for a new stringer I would say. That's the first rule of stringing really. Consistent and one right. wavy strings mean they aren't straightening during the tensioning, and thus it's an inferior job.

 

[esgee48]

I don't see how that would relieve drag / friction?

Please look up the definition of static vs dynamic coefficient of friction. There is a big difference in that number. By moving the cross, you move into the dynamic realm which allows a CP machine to pull more accurately. That's the reason we say that you straighten the cross while it is being pulled.

 

[ChimpChimp]

A wavy or straightened cross differs by less than 5 degrees on my DW, at 48 to 50 pounds. 5 degrees = 0.4 % man (cosine 5 deg). That is 0.2 pounds. I would still straighten each cross though not for tension.

 

[BenC]

First, can we agree that the number the Tournastringer comes up with is a useful reference number for comparison, string job to string job, or over time on a racquet, but it is not meant to point out a failure in a machine that is actually pulling accurate tension.

If we don't worry about that, let's refer to a string job with machine tension at 60#. Best machine in the world, best stringer. The mains are pulled first. Care is taken over every silly millimeter of possible tension loss with crossovers, tie offs, just like we all do. Then what happens? These rude cross strings come along and bend the mains into a crooked path, up and down, up and down, 18-20 times. What was once a straight shot, top to bottom has been made tortuous, adding tension. The crosses also are following a crooked path, but it is along that path that our good stringer and machine set those strings' tension. So their initial tension state does not get distorted like the mains.

So when a player, John Doe, or Jane Grand-Slam, says they love their racquet at 60#, they really love the end result of the machine being set at 60#. The mains have a higher tension. But the stringbed stiffness is what plays.

That's how I see it.

The biggest revelation I had when learning to string is that saying "mains at X lbs and crosses at Y lbs" refers to the instructions, not the result.

 

[Rabbit]

And I have to say that for whatever reason, I find the string jobs off the Mighty Sensor are straighter than any other machine I've ever used. I don't know if it's the layout of the machine, the tension head, an improvement in my technique or a combination of the factors (the Sensor lends itself to better technique). But the string jobs I produce off the Mighty Sensor are really consistent. And I don't charge a dime more for it

 

[Slasher]

Here we go. We don’t believe that’s the case. We know it is.

Let me guess - we know (safety in numbers of like minded folk clutching and clinging to a belief) because of a theory in physics which presumes constant and uniform contact with the surface and other presumptions which do not apply or are unrealistic in the real world application - which rarely applies in real world applications - most certainly does not apply with vibrating tennis strings in a frame - but because some phlunkie "expert" published some interpretations of a flawed experiment - which you believe is the gospel truth.

For you Capstan disciples out there to successfully and properly apply Capstan::

* the string needs to be on the verge of full sliding - which is never is

* the string cannot be rigid - which it most certainly is - to an extent - hold a small piece out horizontally - it doesn't bend too much at all - much like wire

* the string is not elastic - which it most certainly is

In addition, the string is plastic - to an extent - which is cannot be to successfully and properly apply Capstan.

So there is your Capstan for you Capstan huggers - left behind at the bus stop with Cletus at Biloxi - along with your other excess baggage.

Throw Capstan overboard.......

Walk the plank.............................Capstan....................................

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..........................shiver me timbers matey.............................

Aye, aye................Capstan...........................

 

[am1899]

@Slasher if there was any truth to your theory, explain to me why a stencil on a strung racquet doesn’t move, so long as string(s) don’t break.

Unless you can hit one string, and one string only, and do so repeatedly, the friction between the grommets cannot be overcome.

By the way, pro tip for you: labeling people “phlunkies” (spelled correctly, it’s flunkies btw) and whatever else...during a conversation...doesn’t prove your point, nor does it help your credibility.

 

[Rabbit]

@Slasher
Unless you can hit one string, and one string only, and do so repeatedly, the friction between the grommets cannot be overcome.

@jim e @fritzhimself

Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only.

 

[am1899]

 

[fritzhimself]

...........

 

[McLovin]

...a tour stringer, Tom Parry suggested to me...

Would that be the same Tom Parry formerly of Pacific?

 

[am1899]

Getting back to the OP...aren't flying clamps superior to fixed clamps? So said the experts?

 

[Sardines]

Just to add a practical side to the "science", I notice on the constant pull machines straightening the crosses, will usually make the machine adjust tension slightly tighter

Getting back to the OP...aren't flying clamps superior to fixed clamps? So said the experts?

Haha well, flying clamps hold "a" tension, it's often just not as repeatable as fixed. I feel a difference in play. I even blind tested it, both strung to the same tension, and flipped the test racquets. I could tell which racquet was strung with the flying clamps. It plays a tad more inconsistently, like it was 1-2lbs lower in tension. The difference is quite clear when hitting the upper ⅓ of the hoop. It's not drastic, and is barely noticeable. Adjusting tension doesn't really work because it's not as consistent across the stringbed. It's minor but to the fastidious obsessive type, or a touring pro, it'd be a thing.

 

[am1899]

@Sardines i totally agree. I was being a little (ok, maybe a lot) facetious if that wasn’t obvious.

 

[Sardines]

I know. But I added to that just a little! haha

 

[fritzhimself]

...............

 

[esgee48]

Stringing using fixed clamps vs flying clamps is slightly different. Not by much, but different because of drawback or twisting by OEM flying clamps and the issue of NOT being able to clamp as close to the frame. If you take the time to adjust for this, your string bed can be just as consistent us using a fixed clamped machine. With flying clamps, you really need to pull out the string between the clamp and tension head which is on another string. That's the only way you can get that section of string to be close to ref tension. With fixed clamp, this string length is minimal because you can clamp right next to the frame. I showed someone with an X2 this and he could see the weight drop some more, from slightly above horizontal to horizontal. We pinged out the results and you can hear and see the difference with RT.

 

[Wes]

Stringing using fixed clamps vs flying clamps is slightly different. Not by much, but different because of drawback or twisting by OEM flying clamps and the issue of NOT being able to clamp as close to the frame. If you take the time to adjust for this, your string bed can be just as consistent us using a fixed clamped machine. With flying clamps, you really need to pull out the string between the clamp and tension head which is on another string. That's the only way you can get that section of string to be close to ref tension. With fixed clamp, this string length is minimal because you can clamp right next to the frame. I showed someone with an X2 this and he could see the weight drop some more, from slightly above horizontal to horizontal. We pinged out the results and you can hear and see the difference with RT.

^^^
Right.
And don't even get me started on all these people who start tensioning their mains with a flying clamp positioned/clamped in the middle of the two center mains.
They actually think they're getting reference tension on those strings.

 

[Folsom_Stringer_Musa]

Along those lines, a tour stringer, Tom Parry suggested to me long ago that stringing the crosses 4 - 6 pounds looser than the mains would lengthen dwell time thereby increasing pocketing and spin. I tried it once and loved it, so I still string the crosses looser than the mains by 4 pounds these days. I also play Yonex now and they used to require crosses strung 5% looser than mains.

My default is 3-4lb lower on cross unless otherwise specified.
Default works great for me.

Trust me, I've been so guilty of this but the worst thing you can do for your tennis is overthink your gear. The best players worry about their game, not their gear.

Great point.

 

[Folsom_Stringer_Musa]

@am1899 Yep, as I've mentioned (probably ad nauseum) on here before, I had a player who wanted her strings at 86 (86 because that was the max tension on a Wise). She played with Lux Alu and broke two sets a day (just amazing). The 3rd year I strung for her, she had backed that down to 75. Note that she had moved from a 16 X 18 pattern to a 16 X 19. The third year I strung for her she brought me her frames the first day and she said "OK, 75 this year....aren't you proud of me?"

75lb and a lady! Lot of stress on the clamps.
She might be well trained, otherwise TE will knocking at the door.

 

[Sardines]

I would rather put it this way - flying clamps are hardly worth mentioning.
Although - there are also many people who buy classic cars (but as an investment).
These wishy-washy machines without proper and stable (torsion-free) turntable and fixed clamps fill the topics.

Well that's a little harsh. Small systems do work well enough. I questioned the validity of the pro-stringer when my kid asked me for the advance. All the videos looked flimsy and not very even in tension. However, it turns out a portable machine like the pro stringer, with a few additions to the standard package, can do a good job, if the stringer is somewhat careful. The ability to pack up everything into something smaller than a shoe bag is awesome. In fact, my kiddo has a kit of folding table and chair, where she can break it out and restring anywhere with a plug between matches. I can't fault that part of the equation. Flying clamps are as good as fixed, but it's not that far off, especially with good technique.

 

[am1899]

I think it depends some on the context and application. If we’re talking about hobby stringers and recreational players, then I think flying clamps are fine. If we’re talking about a retail environment, and/or more advanced players...flying clamps are less than ideal, IMHO.

 

[Irvin]

Flying clamps are as good as fixed, but it's not that far off

There are good and bad fixed and flying clamps. Flying clamps except for the first few crosses can be clampEd as near to the frame as fixed clamps (sometimes closer.) One disadvantage of flying clamps is you need to clamps every string on each end. personally I much prefer fixed clamps but flying clamps have their advantages. One advantage is on an ATW pattern I never have to clamp a string outside the frame which could weaken the string I can clamp the string inside the frame to free up a flxed clamp. Or if you‘re stringing with an ATW pattern with flying clamps there is no need for a starting clamp.

 

[Rabbit]

I've used both....and given a choice I'd never use a flying clamp ever ever ever ever ever again.

 

[am1899]

I've used both....and given a choice I'd never use a flying clamp ever ever ever ever ever again.

“...and I shall see her face...never more, never more, never more...”

 

[struggle]

I've used both....and given a choice I'd never use a flying clamp ever ever ever ever ever again.

Yes, no one with any intelligence would choose flying clamps over fixed, given a choice.

However, flying clamps do have their place (duh).

 

[Sardines]

I think it depends some on the context and application. If we’re talking about hobby stringers and recreational players, then I think flying clamps are fine. If we’re talking about a retail environment, and/or more advanced players...flying clamps are less than ideal, IMHO.

Well when touring pros and competitive juniors are using something like the Pro Stringer with starting and flying clamps, flying clamps aren't significantly off, and can be compensated with a bit of tension change, and a longer warm up before the match to acclimate. In fact, we are in LV now doing the J4, and she just changed tension between matches for the conditions and singles to dubs., stringing 2 racquets in an hr. And she's still in both.

 

[am1899]

Well when touring pros and competitive juniors are using something like the Pro Stringer with starting and flying clamps, flying clamps aren't significantly off, and can be compensated with a bit of tension change, and a longer warm up before the match to acclimate. In fact, we are in LV now doing the J4, and she just changed tension between matches for the conditions and singles to dubs., stringing 2 racquets in an hr. And she's still in both.

I have no doubt that some touring pros, college players, etc. use a machine like The Pro Stringer. And I’m sure, once they get the hang of it, they’re able to put out consistent work.

Still, if consistency is king...I’d put my money on a machine with fixed clamps, rather than one with flying clamps (assuming both machines are of similar quality and in good working order). But again, that’s just my humble opinion. YMMV.