Is an Angell Right for Me?

[pfrischmann]

Hi Guys,
I'm stuck. In the short time I've been playing, I've made it through most of the usual frames and I can't find anything that really scratches the itch. I get close but...

I've been playing for 5 years and I work very hard at it. I am a 4.0 lefty. I'm told I am a mid to high 4.0.
For the longest time, I used an Aero Pro Drive. As my game developed I started to notice shortcomings in the racquet. It's great on the base line and I get tons of top-spin. For some reason, when I pick up this stick, my forehand comes alive. I can do all kinds of ridiculous angles and dips. I love that part of my game and miss it. I tend to pop up half volleys with it and volleys aren't very stable/predictable, they also tend to come over a bit high. Serve is decent but lacks plow through. After demoing a few other sticks, I realized there is't much feel to this stick either. The newer Pure Aero is worse IMHO.
I use this stick leaded up to 11.8 ounces with a SW of 322.

I went to the PS-97 and it is everything the APD is not. Very stable and very good on half-volleys and volleys.
I have a better all court game but I gave up the spin, which I really love. I also hate the Wilson grip. I love the feel of the PS-97 though.I feel very connected to the ball, even with a full bed of tour-bite. On serves, the flat with the PS is great but the kick isn't as good.

Also, me and my friends agree, the PS-97 is a bit of a pig. It swings much heavier than it's specs. mine is 11.9 ounces, 32cm balance and 320 sw and feels much heavier than the APD at the same specs.

So,
Is there an Angell that...
can spin close to the APD (big ask I know) and swing as easy.
have the stability and feel of the PS-97 (is that the foam core feel?)
Have the predictability on half volleys and volleys of the PS-97
Give me the 1st serve oopmh of the PS-97
Give me the 2nd serve spin of the APD. ?

That's all

 

[unclenimrod]

Hi Guys,
I'm stuck. In the short time I've been playing, I've made it through most of the usual frames and I can't find anything that really scratches the itch. I get close but...

I've been playing for 5 years and I work very hard at it. I am a 4.0 lefty. I'm told I am a mid to high 4.0.
For the longest time, I used an Aero Pro Drive. As my game developed I started to notice shortcomings in the racquet. It's great on the base line and I get tons of top-spin. For some reason, when I pick up this stick, my forehand comes alive. I can do all kinds of ridiculous angles and dips. I love that part of my game and miss it. I tend to pop up half volleys with it and volleys aren't very stable/predictable, they also tend to come over a bit high. Serve is decent but lacks plow through. After demoing a few other sticks, I realized there is't much feel to this stick either. The newer Pure Aero is worse IMHO.
I use this stick leaded up to 11.8 ounces with a SW of 322.

I went to the PS-97 and it is everything the APD is not. Very stable and very good on half-volleys and volleys.
I have a better all court game but I gave up the spin, which I really love. I also hate the Wilson grip. I love the feel of the PS-97 though.I feel very connected to the ball, even with a full bed of tour-bite. On serves, the flat with the PS is great but the kick isn't as good.

Also, me and my friends agree, the PS-97 is a bit of a pig. It swings much heavier than it's specs. mine is 11.9 ounces, 32cm balance and 320 sw and feels much heavier than the APD at the same specs.

So,
Is there an Angell that...
can spin close to the APD (big ask I know) and swing as easy.
have the stability and feel of the PS-97 (is that the foam core feel?)
Have the predictability on half volleys and volleys of the PS-97
Give me the 1st serve oopmh of the PS-97
Give me the 2nd serve spin of the APD. ?

That's all

Probably the tc100 but what do you mean predictability on half volleys? What's your play style that your hitting a lot of half volleys (to the point where you notice a difference btw how racquets handle them)?

 

[pfrischmann]

I do hit a lot of half volleys. My style is changing from "baseline basher" to "serve and volley" I guess. In reality, I'm really liking to come in to the net and put pressure on my opponents. Especially in doubles. I find that my volleys and half volleys sit a little high with the APD. At first, I thought it was my technique and to some extent, that is true. Then I noticed the "popping up" got worse with a Wilson Steam 99S and learned about a racquet's launch angle.. I just don't want to give up my singles strokes and I hate adjusting to more than one racquet. (one for singles/one for doubles)

 

[pfrischmann]

I realize I'm pretty much talking to myself in this thread. I just had a lesson with my pro today and hit with both the PS-97 and the APD. According to him, I hit a bigger ball with the PS-97 and a "thinner" ball with the APD. I tend to have better consistency with the APD. I play differently with them too. I'm much more of an all court player with the PS-97, half volleys, chips and more of a top-spin hitter with the APD.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

Angell could be one of the routes to go, but the two rackets you are talking about are catered to different play style. The APD is mainly a baseliner's racket use to hit heavy spin and grind out points. Great for singles. The PS 97 is going to cater to players with more of an all court game and will volley much better due to mass and it's headlight balance. You typically don't see many doubles players or serve and volleyers playing with the APD or PAD.

Basically, you're just looking for more spin if I understand you correctly. Personally, I'd just stick with the PS97 and work on technique or changing your strings/tension. You may be getting less spin than with the APD, but I'm pretty sure there's adjustments you can make to compensate: String choice, tension, or more brush up on your strokes.

 

[djNEiGht]

I generally like thin beamed player type frames. Head i.Prestige is my go to right now followed by the Pro Kennex Redondo 98. I also like playing with a Prince POG Mid and the OS. The Mid has very little forgiveness in my game and I attribute that to smaller head size and often slumping game. When I am in a groove, this is another beast I enjoy hitting with. The i.prestige is a tad bit lighter than the Redondo which mean a whole lot in terms of 3 plus games a day and staying fresh

I'm testing the Babolat PATour and love the extra weight (compared to APD/PA/PD), forgiveness, free power, and spin. I do notice a bit of sluggishness at the net for volleys and the stiffness might be starting to show it's carnage on my joints. Shoulder and wrist isn't feeling up to par but I am still able to play as well as can be. I believe the wrist is because I'm playing x2 sizes smaller than I normally do. The shoulder could be from the kick serves. I've been tossing in a few more kick serves just because the PAT really delivers some serious movement in the ball. I play tested the PD over a year ago and felt a bit of an awkward sensation in the shoulder as well and was doing the same with the amount of kickers versus flat serves.

I've eyed the Angell line for a while and have been also reading up on the recent threads. the TC100 at 320 g at 7/9 pts HL in the open pattern might be my 1st choice followed by the 95. Not sure about stiffness as I heard that the 70 RA was actually mid 60 RA.

 

[AMGF]

I don't know if Angell can be the solution for you. They do sound like very nice frames and I'm in the process of having a frame custom made for me by Paul Angell. But I do this mostly because I know the specs I want and can't find them in any other frame on the market.

If I were you, I'd demo a whole lot of different frames. If I read correctly, you played the APD and PS97. There are so many other good frames that you could demo and find a better tool for your game. But in the end, no racquet is perfect and all have compromises one way or the other.

You seem to want a stability (for volleying) spin, feel and power, I'm sure you can find that in a frame. In fact, to me, my leaded Graphene Prestige Pros with full bed poly do all that. But you might not like them. Only you would know as everyone is different.

If not, an Angell TC95/100 in 16x19 and 70ra built at your desired weight and balance could be done. Worst case, you sell it in the classifieds and lose some money. Good luck!

 

[Backhanded Compliment]

Yeah your polarities of play are so different. I think a TC100 RA70 would be a good go between but many frames are. The problem here is that Angell is kinda what you try when you know what you want so you just go and spec what you need. He does provide foam filled frames that other manufacturers dont do so often anymore.
Besides the TC100 look at demoing a Volkl, Pacific X force Pro and a few others. Demoing is the way to find what you want... Angell is a way to get what you want once you know what it is you are after. I dont think you would go wrong with a TC100 RA 70 though. At your level choice of frame can really define how you play so I bet youll do like a lot of players and pack a variety of frames depending on your mood.

One very cool frame that gets overlooked is the wilson six one 16x18. it is an absolute beast power and spin wise but still a player's stick and good flat hitting + vollies. Demo at least 5 frames then if nobody makes what you want in terms of specs try Angell.

 

[michael valek]

i suggest also the pacific pro 97 / pro 1 252 both hit a heavy ball as opposed to the thin babolat ball, which i fully understand.

 

[pfrischmann]

Thanks guys,
Points well taken. I really appreciate the feedback. I can't get it locally. I feel like I've demoed just about every frame out there at this point. Way too many to list. I settled on the PS-97 as the most versatile and best compromise. Actually, I love the RF-97 but I just lost too much on my serve due to the weight. I agree that part of my problem is a split personality as a tennis player. I don't think my technique is the issue. Although it can be better, with virtually any other stick I can top-spin my opponents onto their heels. I'm known for the kinds of top spin that jumps up chest high.

My thinking was that I think I like the feel and stability I get from sub-100 sqin racquets and the foam filled pro staffs seem to keep coming up as a good feeling racquet. The PS-97 swings heavy for it's weight for some reason. I wonder if a similarly spec'd racquet with a thinner beam and a slightly more headlight balance would be what I am looking for. keep the good stuff and up the rhs/spin quotient a bit.

a bit of racquet history FWIW.
Recently.. Most recent on top

Traded RF-97 for its junior. the PS-97 (current racquet)
Bought RF-97 (A little too heavy over head to swing in long matches)
Bought the Volkl Organix 8 super G..(didn't like the grip and has no touch)
Friend gave me a St. Vincent PS-85..um wow..REALLY not ready for this but.. I get it.
Bought a PS-90 for fun..so that's what they mean by "touch and feel"..not ready for this. Not a good enough player
Bought the APD 2013..Not stable enough inside the baseline even with weight at 2 and 10
Bought the 6.1 95s ..not quite enough pop. 95 might have been a bit too small at this time
Bought Dunlop Max 200g..hurt my arm
Bought APD GT...wanted something with more plow through, more stable on volleys
Bought Pure Drive..need more spin
Prince triple threat OS...1st racquet, thought I needed a "real racquet"

 

[topspn]

I realize I'm pretty much talking to myself in this thread. I just had a lesson with my pro today and hit with both the PS-97 and the APD. According to him, I hit a bigger ball with the PS-97 and a "thinner" ball with the APD. I tend to have better consistency with the APD. I play differently with them too. I'm much more of an all court player with the PS-97, half volleys, chips and more of a top-spin hitter with the APD.

i hate to tell you what your pro is not telling you. You should not be hitting so many half volleys. Your technique is a problem and i suspect at least a good portion relates to foot work. Angell racquets are amazing regardless of my comments. Sorry, if my comment sounds a bit rough.

 

[Backhanded Compliment]

Thanks guys,
Points well taken.
Bought Dunlop Max 200g..hurt my arm
Bought Pure Drive..need more spin

The only way a 200g can hurt your arm is by trying to wrist or am such a heavy stick... something to keep in mind.
Also not enough spin from a Pure Drive? also could not possibly have been the stick. I think you did the smart thing by chosing the PS97 so you can focus on what you are doing because those two things you mentioned are red flags... not trying to be a TT scold just point out something so you dont hurt yourself.

 

[pfrischmann]

i hate to tell you what your pro is not telling you. You should not be hitting so many half volleys. Your technique is a problem and i suspect at least a good portion relates to foot work. Angell racquets are amazing regardless of my comments. Sorry, if my comment sounds a bit rough.

Thanks for the post. Help me understand why you say this. What's wrong with half-volleys? How many is too many? Isn't it a pretty regular stroke in higher end doubles?
Why is my technique a problem? which part of my technique is a problem? Having never seen me hit, how can you make such a strong prognosis and go even deeper to say it's my footwork?

I know you're a regular poster here but I cannot remember your level. It's possible I need a new coach or you are reaching a bit far.

 

[Soundbyte]

Half volleys are relatively uncommon, I would say it's even less common at higher levels.

 

[pfrischmann]

The only way a 200g can hurt your arm is by trying to wrist or am such a heavy stick... something to keep in mind.
Also not enough spin from a Pure Drive? also could not possibly have been the stick. I think you did the smart thing by chosing the PS97 so you can focus on what you are doing because those two things you mentioned are red flags... not trying to be a TT scold just point out something so you dont hurt yourself.

Thanks BHC. I didn't help myself by posting my previous racquets or comments. You are right on the 200G and I do not believe I'd have that issue now. That was two years ago..My technique is leaps and bounds better than when I had the 200G. The grip was a little too small for me as well. Something I figured out along the way. Regarding the Pure Drive, it does hit flatter than the APD and has a little more power. So jumping from the PD to the APD for more spin is a logical step for more spin. It's all about perspective, right? I'm sure if I picked it up again I would have no problem generating Top Spin with it. I have no problem generating top spin with a PS-90, just not as much as the APD...I'm not worried about the TT scold. I know your coming from a good place and I opened myself up for it with my post. Ultimately, I'm here to learn and get better.

As I mentioned, I've been playing for 5 years and I got heavily bitten by the tennis bug. I do something every day to improve my tennis. Practice, work out, shoulder exercises. static drills. I am progressing quickly and starting to compete with tennis pros and high school kids. I can hang there. I'm not killing it but I can hang. I've grown quickly and my game has changed just as quickly. As an extension of that, my racquet journey is moving at an accelerated pace. It's all in fast forward..more or less.

I added a little weight to the bottom of the PS-97 and It moves much better. It's 12.5 oz 31cm and 320sw. The counter balance reminds me more of a lighter RF-97. Another stick I played with and won a bunch of matches with but felt it left me a little exposed on the serve. I still hate the grip..

 

[pfrischmann]

Half volleys are relatively uncommon, I would say it's even less common at higher levels.

Maybe I'm over emphasizing how many I hit. I'd much rather get in close to hit a volley (in doubles, I serve and volley on just about every point) but with the way people can "dip" the ball today a half volley can be needed when moving forward. In that split second where you have to decide to take it out of the air or take the half volley, I'm prepared to do either with equal enjoyment. I see so many guys bum rush the net and stab at low volleys just to avoid hitting a simple half volley deep into the court. They tend to lunge or get jammed because they are moving to fast. Why be scare of the half-volley?

 

[Backhanded Compliment]

Thanks BHC. I didn't help myself by posting my previous racquets or comments....

I added a little weight to the bottom of the PS-97 and It moves much better. It's 12.5 oz 31cm and 320sw. The counter balance reminds me more of a lighter RF-97. Another stick I played with and won a bunch of matches with but felt it left me a little exposed on the serve. I still hate the grip..

Yeah sounds like you've found a good weight... 12.5 oz is healthy.

Personally I dont think I can use any stick in match play that isnt at least that heavy... but that's just me. There is something about a 12+ oz stick that forces you to do things the right way and prep properly etc. It is all good. My interest in Angell stems simply from the fact that most manufactuers are not making what I want and it all seemed to happen all in one year.... despite many of the best players still using what Im looking for (Im a big returner and I find that many big returners prefer softer RA sticks... I grew up with the Max 200G... it is a return beast because it has such a large sweet spot despite the small head).

You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders.

 

[unclenimrod]

Thanks for the post. Help me understand why you say this. What's wrong with half-volleys? How many is too many? Isn't it a pretty regular stroke in higher end doubles?
Why is my technique a problem? which part of my technique is a problem? Having never seen me hit, how can you make such a strong prognosis and go even deeper to say it's my footwork?

I know you're a regular poster here but I cannot remember your level. It's possible I need a new coach or you are reaching a bit far.

Half volleys are what you hit when you aren't in position to hit volleys in time. In doubles (unless you are playing really fast doubles) you will likely only hit one half volley per point at most. And if you are hitting half volleys in singles a lot, you are timing your approaches poorly (unless you're saying you hug the baseline and try to play like davydenko). That's what he means by footwork.

 

[pfrischmann]

Thanks unclenimrod. That makes sense. I would agree too. half-volley is the second choice and a distant second at that. Inside the base line, my preference is always to take it out of the air. I'd say one half-volley per point would even be a lot. I definitely use it more in doubles to close to the net. I'd argue that if I am hitting to many half volleys, it's more a possible issue with my anticipation or my choice of balls to close on than my foot work. I do judge racquets with the half volley as it requires good timing and touch. Although to me, saying hitting too many half volleys is like saying you are hitting too many backhands. I've never really counted how many I hit. I just hit the best ball I can. A controlled half volley is better than a lurching or stab volley. My first volley is between the baseline and the service line and is almost always the 2nd shot I've hit in a point. It can often be a half-volley depending the ball my opponent hits.

 

[topspn]

Thanks for the post. Help me understand why you say this. What's wrong with half-volleys? How many is too many? Isn't it a pretty regular stroke in higher end doubles?
Why is my technique a problem? which part of my technique is a problem? Having never seen me hit, how can you make such a strong prognosis and go even deeper to say it's my footwork?

I know you're a regular poster here but I cannot remember your level. It's possible I need a new coach or you are reaching a bit far.

Hi,

My comment did not mean to be insulting and perhaps its totally not my business, just caught my attention. I interpreted that you are using a 1/2 volley a lot. What is a lot? In high level play, it is a rarity to hit 1/2 volleys unless purely reactionary in split second timing. It is far superior in both punch and control to take the volley. Why footwork? recreational players for most part all have bad footwork. Unless, they were coached from a young age and then played competitively so retained the understanding of movement. As you move forward you may be loosing balance (not splitting or taking stutter steps to regain balance) and when out of control you're stabbing at the 1/2 volley. Or you are getting balance then stopping to take a 1/2 volley as apposed to good technique and still moving forward with outside foot of where you are moving to stepping over and leaning in with a forward compact volley. Either way, you are doing yourself a disservice and 1/2 volley are certainly not the way to go. I haven't seen you so apologies for the conjecture but feel free to bring it up with your coach. Perhaps you can get away with it with whoever your currently playing but it is still something to work on.

 

[SeeItHitIt]

OP - I don't want to get off topic (from being able to comment on an Angell) but I will. I play at a slightly lower NRTP than you but my game is following the same evolution. Starting with a '13 APD after I came back to tennis, the spin from the baseline was intoxicating...I didn't know (but later learned) that for me it had no feel, couldn't pick-up a volley or lacked plow through (but there are many than can make it do all those things). So the racquet evolution went through a similar path to you with 6.1 (18x20 though as it matched an old PS I had), RF97 (LOVE for this but I can't produce enough of a 1st serve with it), the little brother PS97 and my wife's hand-me down Ai98s (she went to the 100's and much happier).

My $.02 is to try that Yonex for grins. It's not an Angell, but to me/for my game has me switching back and forth with the PS. Weighted up a little to 340g (12 o'clock lead, overgrip, balance ~327) it's solid (if not muted) but feels faster than the PS does stroke for stroke. With some lead up top it produces really good serve spin/kick (using cyclone 16 or 17 or Revolve), has enough oomph for defense and serve return and supports an all-court game (at least at my level). YMMV and if you find an Angell that works I'd love to know which one too -

 

[pfrischmann]

Hi,

My comment did not mean to be insulting and perhaps its totally not my business, just caught my attention. I interpreted that you are using a 1/2 volley a lot. What is a lot? In high level play, it is a rarity to hit 1/2 volleys unless purely reactionary in split second timing. It is far superior in both punch and control to take the volley. Why footwork? recreational players for most part all have bad footwork. Unless, they were coached from a young age and then played competitively so retained the understanding of movement. As you move forward you may be loosing balance (not splitting or taking stutter steps to regain balance) and when out of control you're stabbing at the 1/2 volley. Or you are getting balance then stopping to take a 1/2 volley as apposed to good technique and still moving forward with outside foot of where you are moving to stepping over and leaning in with a forward compact volley. Either way, you are doing yourself a disservice and 1/2 volley are certainly not the way to go. I haven't seen you so apologies for the conjecture but feel free to bring it up with your coach. Perhaps you can get away with it with whoever your currently playing but it is still something to work on.

No Sweat Topspin, Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen the Brian brothers hit a half volley. I really don't think so..

 

[pfrischmann]

OP - I don't want to get off topic (from being able to comment on an Angell) but I will. I play at a slightly lower NRTP than you but my game is following the same evolution. Starting with a '13 APD after I came back to tennis, the spin from the baseline was intoxicating...I didn't know (but later learned) that for me it had no feel, couldn't pick-up a volley or lacked plow through (but there are many than can make it do all those things). So the racquet evolution went through a similar path to you with 6.1 (18x20 though as it matched an old PS I had), RF97 (LOVE for this but I can't produce enough of a 1st serve with it), the little brother PS97 and my wife's hand-me down Ai98s (she went to the 100's and much happier).

My $.02 is to try that Yonex for grins. It's not an Angell, but to me/for my game has me switching back and forth with the PS. Weighted up a little to 340g (12 o'clock lead, overgrip, balance ~327) it's solid (if not muted) but feels faster than the PS does stroke for stroke. With some lead up top it produces really good serve spin/kick (using cyclone 16 or 17 or Revolve), has enough oomph for defense and serve return and supports an all-court game (at least at my level). YMMV and if you find an Angell that works I'd love to know which one too -

Hi SeeitHitit,
I tried an AI98 briefly and I found it to feel very muted and the sweet spot seemed high to me. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try it again.

 

[unclenimrod]

Thanks unclenimrod. That makes sense. I would agree too. half-volley is the second choice and a distant second at that. Inside the base line, my preference is always to take it out of the air. I'd say one half-volley per point would even be a lot. I definitely use it more in doubles to close to the net. I'd argue that if I am hitting to many half volleys, it's more a possible issue with my anticipation or my choice of balls to close on than my foot work. I do judge racquets with the half volley as it requires good timing and touch. Although to me, saying hitting too many half volleys is like saying you are hitting too many backhands. I've never really counted how many I hit. I just hit the best ball I can. A controlled half volley is better than a lurching or stab volley. My first volley is between the baseline and the service line and is almost always the 2nd shot I've hit in a point. It can often be a half-volley depending the ball my opponent hits.

The one half volley that is hit a lot in rec tennis is the reply to your opponent's return of serve. That's the "one per point" I'm talkin about. If your serve is relatively quick it can be tough to get to that serve return without taking it on the rise instead of out of the air. And semantically speaking, yes it seems anticipation and timing of the approach is more accurate than footwork.

That said, an Angell can be right for anyone. They are great sticks. You have played with enough sticks it seems to figure out the questions you would want to ask Paul angell in order to pick an Angell you'd like.