Is loose grip really a good thing?

[Shroud]

Interesting enough, there's a thread where they say using heavy thin-beam racquet is a man's ego thing. Now RHS as well. What else? Non-slice BH? Poly strings? Powerful serve? Multiple racquets? Tennis generally?.. huh, seems I've got the answer! Should we be ok with ego/mojo bringing us to the courts? Competition is an ego thing.

but rocket science is a bridge too far...

 

[ballmachineguy]

Just noticed this today, because I normally have all fingers on grip, but if your ring finger is at the end of the butt cap (pinky off) you get more forehand lag and it keeps me from gripping too tightly.

 

[Curious]

Just noticed this today, because I normally have all fingers on grip, but if your ring finger is at the end of the butt cap (pinky off) you get more forehand lag and it keeps me from gripping too tightly.

Yeah same story, same illusion. Lag, racket head speed, pace and so on.
That sort of grip is what exactly I’m trying to avoid, I’m trying to put even the pinky on the handle not just the ring finger.
I don’t care about the lag and pace, I want a very stable grip, steady racket face at contact.

 

[Dragy]

I don’t care about the lag and pace, I want a very stable grip, steady racket face at contact.

Use 280-290g unstrung racquet with SW of 300-310 - you'll be in full control!

 

[Curious]

Use 280-290g unstrung racquet with SW of 300-310 - you'll be in full control!

Static weight less than 340g, sw less than 330 doesn’t feel right.

 

[Dragy]

Static weight less than 340g, sw less than 330 doesn’t feel right.

My judgement... you don't get control over decently heavy frame by gripping tight. Even on volleys, you still pull the handle, and head follows, and you stop handle, and head pivots inertially. Even for very compact volleys.
Maybe 2-handed style both sides? Clearly an improvement for racquet face control at contact!

 

[Deleted member 369227]

Both tennis pros I have been practicing with in the past told me to keep my arm relaxed during the swing until a moment before contact with the ball, then to grip the racquet very firmly through the contact, and then relax it again immediately after. For me, it feels like a short "squeeze" of the handle that lasts about ~0.2-0.3 seconds, and it surely takes some practice to master.

IMO, holding the racquet tightly throughout the entire swing may lead to wrist and elbow injuries over time. Fighting the natural pendulum movement of the racquet with your muscles is (1) tiresome on the long run (2) stressful for your small arm muscles and tendons.

 

[Dragy]

For me, it feels like a short "squeeze" of the handle that lasts about ~0.2-0.3 seconds, and it surely takes some practice to master.

Hope this worked well for you right off the bat. I feel some risk of tightening not only the grip, but whole arm, slowing down the swing.
What I suggest to do is tightening not for conact, but aiming for full extended position - that will ensure continuous swing through contact without deceleration, and firmer grip around contact. To picture it, you accelerate with loose arm around here:

And then you tighten up from before the contact towards the extention position:

Oops that weak player didn't grip the handle properly, caught a mishit and got the hoop twist, what a shame!

 

[Deleted member 369227]

Hope this worked well for you right off the bat. I feel some risk of tightening not only the grip, but whole arm, slowing down the swing.
What I suggest to do is tightening not for conact, but aiming for full extended position - that will ensure continuous swing through contact without deceleration, and firmer grip around contact. To picture it, you accelerate with loose arm around here:

And then you tighten up from before the contact towards the extention position:

Oops that weak player didn't grip the handle properly, caught a mishit and got the hoop twist, what a shame!

You cannot really tell from that video how tightly Stan holds the racquet right through the contact with the ball (I frequently see him playing with his fingers taped due to blisters - why if he has a completely loose grip?)

Also, don't make judgments based on a "cherry-picked" practice video, when most players are intentionally very relaxed and warming up. There are other match play videos of Stan hitting very hard paced forehands clearly off-center and his racquet head not twisting at all.

Regarding the fully extended position of the arm, yes, I mostly hit the ball with my arm fully extended (except when not ideally positioned for the shot). A guy who has a very "whippy" forehand and hits the ball with his arm fully extended through the contact is Rafael Nadal. His fingers are always full of blisters and taped - can you explain that? Out of professional players, only Federer looks like the guy who has a relatively relaxed grip through the contact.

Anyway, I am not advocating that the way I was taught to grip the racquet through the contact is the right way or the best way. If you play consistently with a loose grip through the entire swing, and can control your shots even against hard hitters, good for you. It is definitely "healthier" to be as relaxed as possible.

 

[Dragy]

You cannot really tell from that video how tightly Stan holds the racquet right through the contact with the ball (I frequently see him playing with his fingers taped due to blisters - why if he has a completely loose grip?)

Also, don't make judgments based on a "cherry-picked" practice video, when most players are intentionally very relaxed and warming up. There are other match play videos of Stan hitting very hard paced forehands clearly off-center and his racquet head not twisting at all.

Regarding the fully extended position of the arm, yes, I mostly hit the ball with my arm fully extended (except when not ideally positioned for the shot). A guy who has a very "whippy" forehand and hits the ball with his arm fully extended through the contact is Rafael Nadal. His fingers are always full of blisters and taped - can you explain that? Out of professional players, only Federer looks like the guy who has a relatively relaxed grip through the contact.

Anyway, I am not advocating that the way I was taught to grip the racquet through the contact is the right way or the best way. If you play consistently with a loose grip through the entire swing, and can control your shots even against hard hitters, good for you. It is definitely "healthier" to be as relaxed as possible.

I was actually not going to argue against you - I started writing the post, picked Stan vid to illustrate my ideas, then it appeared to be a mishit and twist, which was funny. So it ended as it did.

I suggest, if you focus on tightening the grip - do it in unison with pushing arm into extension to avoid tightening at contact location and decelerating.

 

[Shroud]

Yeah same story, same illusion. Lag, racket head speed, pace and so on.
That sort of grip is what exactly I’m trying to avoid, I’m trying to put even the pinky on the handle not just the ring finger.
I don’t care about the lag and pace, I want a very stable grip, steady racket face at contact.

Is it not steady now? What is it doing at contact?

 

[Curious]

Is it not steady now? What is it doing at contact?

No contact for 6 weeks due to lockdown. Just theorizing.

 

[Shroud]

No contact for 6 weeks due to lockdown. Just theorizing.

Ah. Ok. Then when you shadow swing with loose grip what does the racquet do at contact?

 

[Curious]

Ah. Ok. Then when you shadow swing with loose grip what does the racquet do at contact?

Also just moved house so couldn't do what you said. Will do later.

 

[Shroud]

Also just moved house so couldn't do what you said. Will do later.

Ok.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

What a big illusion to think that you need a lot of racket head speed unless you’re a very high level player. It’s mostly a men’s ego thing! Never seen girls obsessing that much about racket head speed, serve speed, forehand speed...
This illusion will not get you pro-like shots, it will only bring a hefty unforced error count and a sore elbow!

Not the girls I know, they look up to power WTA players not Radwanska.

Fixed grip is more likely to give you more tennis elbow.

 

[mcs1970]

IMO, if you focus on the grip or grip tightness you are focusing on the wrong thing. IMO focusing how to generate energy so that your arm stays relaxed has to be the key. If you can consistently do what it takes to get relaxed power, you will never think about your grip again.

This Mayotte clip has been posted before but I still find it the best in terms of a very small but rarely mentioned thing that Roger does to generate tremendous power with relaxed looking strokes.

 

[Curious]

IMO, if you focus on the grip or grip tightness you are focusing on the wrong thing. IMO focusing how to generate energy so that your arm stays relaxed has to be the key. If you can consistently do what it takes to get relaxed power, you will never think about your grip again.

This Mayotte clip has been posted before but I still find it the best in terms of a very small but rarely mentioned thing that Roger does to generate tremendous power with relaxed looking strokes.

Hip first as he describes in the video requires great timing. Not for everyone. And irrelevant to rec player.

 

[Shroud]

Hip first as he describes in the video requires great timing. Not for everyone. And irrelevant to rec player.

This is a strange reply. Its like you are lost on a journey and someone hands you a gps device and you say nah I am good gps is irrelevant. FWIW I think that has a ton to do with your original question. Its like the kinetic chain and timing go hand in hand with grip pressure.

 

[mcs1970]

Hip first as he describes in the video requires great timing. Not for everyone. And irrelevant to rec player.

Not disagreeing. I already preached on another thread about copying Lendl and Sampras fh for most rec players. So despite the Fed infatuation on this board I am not suggesting this is easy to copy. However if you are hellbent on copying Federer as many seem to be then that video does provide a different take than most videos.

All I am saying is that focusing on whether your grip is too tight or relaxed is missing the forest for the trees. The aim should be a nice repeatable motion that consistently works for you. If you have that then you will go through matches and not even fret about your grips.

 

[Curious]

Not disagreeing. I already preached on another thread about copying Lendl and Sampras fh for most rec players. So despite the Fed infatuation on this board I am not suggesting this is easy to copy. However if you are hellbent on copying Federer as many seem to be then that video does provide a different take than most videos.

All I am saying is that focusing on whether your grip is too tight or relaxed is missing the forest for the trees. The aim should be a nice repeatable motion that consistently works for you. If you have that then you will go through matches and not even fret about your grips.

It’s hard to quantify the grip firmness and it’s quite subjective. So I guess I’m done with it, I know what feels right for me and it’s on the firmer side. That’s ok. But the other part of my point is maybe more important: choking up on the handle rather than just holding it very close to the buttcap. I strongly believe that’s a better way for a repeatable steady, solid contact. Nishikori style that is.

 

[Curious]

This is a strange reply. Its like you are lost on a journey and someone hands you a gps device and you say nah I am good gps is irrelevant. FWIW I think that has a ton to do with your original question. Its like the kinetic chain and timing go hand in hand with grip pressure.

What if the gps device has no battery?
Is it still relevant??

 

[mcs1970]

What if the gps device has no battery?
Is it still relevant??

But your answer was more like “the gps has all these fancy schmanzy buttons. Give me the good old map and my intuition. Now get off my lawn!!!”

The video by itself showed how Federe gets relaxed power. When a lot of questions here talk about grips or breaking down a stroke to the most anal degree, that is the question they are really asking. So that’s why I thought it was relevant. Might not help you or me, but might help some others.

As for your other post on choking up a bit, I totally agree. Side on, choking up a bit more are not popular advice but can help a lot of casual rec players. Plus it is more stress free on the body. Open stance, full blooded strokes are better for those who are more fit and can devote a lot of time for reps.

 

[Curious]

https://imgur.com/EDTyEK6

 

[LeeD]

I wonder how the serve goes for Curious?

 

[Curious]

I wonder how the serve goes for Curious?

Shadow swings only due to lockdown.

 

[Shroud]

What if the gps device has no battery?
Is it still relevant??

they hook into the cigarette lighter these days.

Look it is a ***** to go from arming to timing. Its one of the hardest things to do in tennis IMHO except forehand serves and two handed everything. But you can do it and well there is light at the end of the tunnel. If you can get there you will be better because you can play like it says in the inner game alot easier.

 

[Curious]

they hook into the cigarette lighter these days.

Look it is a ***** to go from arming to timing. Its one of the hardest things to do in tennis IMHO except forehand serves and two handed everything. But you can do it and well there is light at the end of the tunnel. If you can get there you will be better because you can play like it says in the inner game alot easier.

Arming vs kinetic chain.
I'm all for arming. Kinetic chain is cool and that but it may turn out to be a waste of time trying to achieve that and failing in the end. Yes, kinetic chain requires perfect timing as long as you want consistency as well. If you wanna hit a few good shots every now and then, sure go for it.
I'm ok even with pure arming. If I engage the body simultaneously it will be better. But engaging the hips first, then torso, then shoulders then the arm and so on is a ridiculous endeavour.

You can become a legend by arming the ball.

 

[Shroud]

Arming vs kinetic chain.
I'm all for arming. Kinetic chain is cool and that but it may turn out to be a waste of time trying to achieve that and failing in the end. Yes, kinetic chain requires perfect timing as long as you want consistency as well. If you wanna hit a few good shots every now and then, sure go for it.
I'm ok even with pure arming. If I engage the body simultaneously it will be better. But engaging the hips first, then torso, then shoulders then the arm and so on is a ridiculous endeavour.

You can become a legend by arming the ball.

To be clear I think you are not giving yourself enough credit. Mac is not a legend because of his groundstrokes btw. To embrace your arming paradigm you better work on that serve/ volley game of yours.

Also you are just being silly. You engage all that stuff at different times when serving for instance. you don't just toss up the ball and swing your arm without firing other parts of the kinetic chain. Try pure arming your serve. Timing is not that hard with some work.

We got hit by hurricane Sally. I was in the yard picking up leaves and twigs with a rake and a trash bag. The neighbor came out of his back yard riding the very vehicle I was telling myself someone should invent. It vacuumed up the leaves and twigs and shredded them. He cleared his yard in alot less time and it was a much better job. I was arming things and he was using the kinetic chain. I know which one I want to do.

 

[Curious]

To be clear I think you are not giving yourself enough credit. Mac is not a legend because of his groundstrokes btw. To embrace your arming paradigm you better work on that serve/ volley game of yours.

Also you are just being silly. You engage all that stuff at different times when serving for instance. you don't just toss up the ball and swing your arm without firing other parts of the kinetic chain. Try pure arming your serve. Timing is not that hard with some work.

We got hit by hurricane Sally. I was in the yard picking up leaves and twigs with a rake and a trash bag. The neighbor came out of his back yard riding the very vehicle I was telling myself someone should invent. It vacuumed up the leaves and twigs and shredded them. He cleared his yard in alot less time and it was a much better job. I was arming things and he was using the kinetic chain. I know which one I want to do.

I just watched Schwartzman Nadal match replay. Schwartzman is amazing. Tennis is all about movement and consistency. Kinetic chain is at the bottom of the list!

 

[Shroud]

I just watched Schwartzman Nadal match replay. Schwartzman is amazing. Tennis is all about movement and consistency. Kinetic chain is at the bottom of the list!

Kinetic chain IS movement. Its optimal movement.

 

[Curious]

Kinetic chain IS movement. Its optimal movement.

I thought it was a power generating motion only. I was referring to moving on the court.

 

[Shroud]

I thought it was a power generating motion only.

And spin. Which leads to consistency. Basically its s force multiplier.

The loose grip is key. Take a board and a whip. You can swing both identically but only one breaks the sound barrier.

 

[Curious]

And spin. Which leads to consistency. Basically its s force multiplier.

The loose grip is key. Take a board and a whip. You can swing both identically but only one breaks the sound barrier.

You fall into the same trap as many others do: obsessing about speed, power. Irrelevant unless playing at high level ( 5.0 plus ).

 

[Shroud]

You fall into the same trap as many others do: obsessing about speed, power. Irrelevant unless playing at high level ( 5.0 plus ).

Speed and power irrelevant?? In tennis??

More like obsessing about technique that can lead to speed snd power and spin.

Nothing wrong with trying to get better and play with better fundamentals. Thats a better trap to be in than the hack trap.

 

[Curious]

Nothing wrong with trying to get better and play with better fundamentals. Thats a better trap to be in than the hack trap.

I get your point but let’s be honest, it’s a sad reality that a lot of people try to play/ look like pros which unfortunately doesn’t yield results in the end.

 

[Shroud]

I get your point but let’s be honest, it’s a sad reality that a lot of people try to play/ look like pros which unfortunately doesn’t yield results in the end.

Yes but that is were your ambition makes up for your lack of talent

 

[Curious]

Yes but that is were your ambition makes up for your lack of talent

 

[Arak]

Arming vs kinetic chain.
I'm all for arming. Kinetic chain is cool and that but it may turn out to be a waste of time trying to achieve that and failing in the end. Yes, kinetic chain requires perfect timing as long as you want consistency as well. If you wanna hit a few good shots every now and then, sure go for it.
I'm ok even with pure arming. If I engage the body simultaneously it will be better. But engaging the hips first, then torso, then shoulders then the arm and so on is a ridiculous endeavour.

You can become a legend by arming the ball.

All Japanese martial arts stipulate that any movement should originate from the hips. But since I have done that for the last 35 years of my life, I can tell you that it’s true and you get much more speed and power when the hips lead the movement. But, when the situation gets serious, you forget about the hip thing and you hit purely with your arms

 

[Dragy]

I just watched Schwartzman Nadal match replay. Schwartzman is amazing. Tennis is all about movement and consistency. Kinetic chain is at the bottom of the list!

You fall into the same trap as many others do: obsessing about speed, power. Irrelevant unless playing at high level ( 5.0 plus ).

You really bring up highest level ATP match and immediately post the irrelevance post?

Schwarzman did amazing ball striking, as always. It’s not just movement and sending balls back, he always pressures his opponents with rhythm, ball quality, ability to counter-attack sharply and finish aggressively.

 

[Curious]

You really bring up highest level ATP match and immediately post the irrelevance post?

Because the take home message for me from Schwartzman’s game is consistency and movement not the kinetic chain.

 

[Dragy]

Because the take home message for me from Schwartzman’s game is consistency and movement not the kinetic chain.

Yeah ok, you can take home whatever you like. But think for a moment how such a small guy keeps up with top players striking quality? Not by arming the ball

 

[Curious]

Yeah ok, you can take home whatever you like. But think for a moment how such a small guy keeps up with top players striking quality? Not by arming the ball

Cool. That can be your take home message. Not mine.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Yes, kinetic chain requires perfect timing as long as you want consistency as well. If you wanna hit a few good shots every now and then, sure go for it.

While some may struggle with the concept of the kinetic chain, that is not the case for everyone. Where did you get the idea that perfect timing is required for successful (consistent) kinetic chain implementation? After all, the kinetic chain is present in more than just the modern forehand.

Compare the two guys hitting above. Both use the kinetic chain, but Goffin's forehand is less extreme with a more traditional large loop used for timing and power. Also, I would've thought efficient use of the kinetic chain would produce more consistent results than straight arming, in part due to the fatigue factor.

Next question: Do players like Mertens, Pliskova and Halep use the kinetic chain on their forehands? I would like to think they do.

 

[Curious]

While some may struggle with the concept of the kinetic chain, that is not the case for everyone. Where did you get the idea that perfect timing is required for successful (consistent) kinetic chain implementation? After all, the kinetic chain is present in more than just the modern forehand.

Compare the two guys hitting above. Both use the kinetic chain, but Goffin's forehand is less extreme with a more traditional large loop used for timing and power. Also, I would've thought efficient use of the kinetic chain would produce more consistent results than straight arming, in part due to the fatigue factor.

Next question: Do players like Mertens, Pliskova and Halep use the kinetic chain on their forehands? I would like to think they do.

If their arms and the racket move at the same time and direction as their hips and torso they probably don’t use the kinetic chain in an optimal way. That’s why they don’t get any racket flip that you see on Federer’s forehand.
As clearly explained in this video.

 

[Dragy]

If their arms and the racket move at the same time and direction as their hips and torso they probably don’t use the kinetic chain in an optimal way. That’s why they don’t get any racket flip that you see on Federer’s forehand.
As clearly explained in this video.

Demonstration in this video has BIG exaggeration built in. That's possibly good way to communicate points, especially during life sessions. But you don't actually see the same visuals in actual pro plays.

 

[Curious]

Where did you get the idea that perfect timing is required for successful (consistent) kinetic chain implementation?

Simple logic. How can you rely on a stroke in which at the beginning your hips and torso go one way while the racket goes another to eventually catch up and come around and hit the ball cleanly? You gotta be either lucky or talented like Federer.

 

[Curious]

Demonstration in this video has BIG exaggeration built in. That's possibly good way to communicate points, especially during life sessions. But you don't actually see the same visuals in actual pro plays.

Yes, demonstration is exaggerated but explanation is spot on.

 

[Digital Atheist]

If their arms and the racket move at the same time and direction as their hips and torso they probably don’t use the kinetic chain in an optimal way. That’s why they don’t get any racket flip that you see on Federer’s forehand.
[..]
As clearly explained in this video.

So I'm guessing no for kinetic chain use on Goffin's forehand?

Your position seems to be if you can't hit the modern Federer-style forehand utilising a perfect kinetic chain, then don't use any kinetic chain at all, just arm it. You know that's not the only other option, right? I wouldn't be letting you near the bath water, that's for sure.

 

[Curious]

So I'm guessing no for kinetic chain use on Goffin's forehand?

Your position seems to be if you can't hit the modern Federer-style forehand utilising a perfect kinetic chain, then don't use any kinetic chain at all, just arm it. You know that's not the only other option, right? I wouldn't be letting you near the bath water, that's for sure.

I think I have a problem with racket flip like Federer style. That really requires a lot of skill. I’m ok with anything else.