It's legal but should I have done it?

luvn10is

New User
I recently captained an 8.5 combo team where the best player on our team by a wide margin was rated 4.0 but in actuality is a high-4.5/low-5.0. Big Baller played DII tennis a decade ago and after graduation was a computer rated 4.5 for 2 or 3 years until she injured her back and had surgery. BB then sat out for 5 or 6 years during which time her game went soft and she gained a lot of weight. When she came back last summer, she, quite frankly, sucked and truly earned her losing record. Not illogically, USTA bumped her down to 4.0 at year end (they bumped her back to 4.5 this August ESL).

Over the past year, she has worked out, went from a bear to a stallion body-wise and is now scary good. Although she was rated 4.0, she continued to play 4.5 and so far this season is undefeated in singles.

When BB signed up for combo, I'd planned to use her as one of my 4.5s but then I saw the roster and, like any captain worth their competitive salt, I thought BONUS! I didn't play 4.5 this season so I had no idea she was hitting this well when I paired her with a 4.5 the first combo match. During the match, on two separate occasions she cracked the ball so hard the opposing 4.5 fell down on her butt fighting off the shot. I'm not talking about an overhead at the net player, these were groundstrokes from behind the baseline that the woman couldn't volley.

After the match, the 4.0 came off the court and stood with her captain a few feet directly behind where I was sitting, animatedly recounting the many times BB had scared skid marks out of her and her partner. When she said BB was probably illegally sandbagging, I turned around and politely told them Big Baller was computer rated so there was no point protesting. They quickly changed the subject.

To my knowledge, nobody else complained after playing her and we cruised to the finals. Our opponent was the same team from the first match and BB again found herself across the net from the 4.5 she'd knocked down. When they got on the court, one of the first things the other 4.5 said was she was so scared she wanted to cry. If she was hoping this would make BB ease up, it was a total fail. Fourth game of the match, BB tagged the woman's partner with a reflex volley while all four were in net. With tears in her eyes, the 4.5 promptly packed up her stuff and walked off the court.

Though we won that point, the other lines were more of a challenge. It had rained off and on all weekend so on Sunday, the last day, they told us we'd have to play a 10-game, no ad set and if it was rained out we'd have to do a coin toss. We may have fared better in the coin toss. They swept the last two points and took the automatic berth to State. But even though we didn't win, there's a good chance we'll still get a wildcard.

So, my question is, if you were me, would you play Big Baller at State?
 

Turbo-87

G.O.A.T.
The answer seems pretty obvious, really. Why even worry about it if your superwoman got in the head of one 4.5 player? The way the story is written, it sounds like Big Baller was out there like Rambo with a fifty cal. :)
 
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tenniscasey

Semi-Pro
This isn't a close question. If she's got a computer rating, she's not sandbagging.

Some players think their opponents should be penalized for improving before the computer figures out they improved. I am not one of those people.

Good luck with the WC.
 

OrangePower

Legend
Of course play her - you've been playing her during the course of the season, so why stop now?

Would have been a different question if you were asking before the start of the season. In which case you would need to decide how cutthroat competitive you want the team to be, and take it from there. But in reality unless BB was deliberately manipulating her rating, I would play her. As long as she wants to play of course - she might be tired of beating up on chumps.
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
Nice well-written, seemingly objectively told story first of all.

Second, are you nuts for even considering not playing her? I'd start a pool to see how many more players she makes cry instead.
 

luvn10is

New User
Not sure why you wouldn't. Why are you considering not playing her?

No, I'm not thinking about it. Besides, if I tried the only thing that'd happen is my teammates would vote me off the island and play her anyway.

Honestly, the thought never crossed my mind until the finals. I've known the 4.0 (the one who was hit in the final) for several years so she felt comfortable telling me how she felt. She pulled me aside and said that, on the court, I was one of the fairest people she knew so she was surprised I'd cheat like this. Cheating? Really? To me, those are strong words but I didn't cuss her out. I took it as sour grapes and blew her off. But then BB told me that when she went to report scores, she overheard the USTA rep at the desk tell somebody that though we were within the rules, she felt we're going against the spirit of the game.

Since then I've been wondering if my thought process is effed up. Is it just sour grapes are are we being bungholes?
 

luvn10is

New User
Of course play her - you've been playing her during the course of the season, so why stop now?

Would have been a different question if you were asking before the start of the season. In which case you would need to decide how cutthroat competitive you want the team to be, and take it from there. But in reality unless BB was deliberately manipulating her rating, I would play her. As long as she wants to play of course - she might be tired of beating up on chumps.

Yep! She said she'll see this through with us but after that she's going to play (in her words) "where I can be me without people complaining".
 

luvn10is

New User
This isn't a close question. If she's got a computer rating, she's not sandbagging.

Some players think their opponents should be penalized for improving before the computer figures out they improved. I am not one of those people.

Good luck with the WC.

Thank you very much. That's what I felt in the beginning so it's nice to hear it.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
No, I'm not thinking about it. Besides, if I tried the only thing that'd happen is my teammates would vote me off the island and play her anyway.

Honestly, the thought never crossed my mind until the finals. I've known the 4.0 (the one who was hit in the final) for several years so she felt comfortable telling me how she felt. She pulled me aside and said that, on the court, I was one of the fairest people she knew so she was surprised I'd cheat like this. Cheating? Really? To me, those are strong words but I didn't cuss her out. I took it as sour grapes and blew her off. But then BB told me that when she went to report scores, she overheard the USTA rep at the desk tell somebody that though we were within the rules, she felt we're going against the spirit of the game.

Since then I've been wondering if my thought process is effed up. Is it just sour grapes are are we being bungholes?


I asked for clarification because I saw two different messages.

You wrote "No, I'm not thinking about it.", then went on to explain why you are thinking about it: is it in the spirit of the game?... are you being bungholes?, etc. That was also what I picked up on in your original post... so you did explain in the 2nd post why you really ARE thinking about not playing her. You want to play her, but maybe its female peer pressure you are worried about?

Does BB want to continue to play, or does she feel maybe she shouldn't? If she wants to keep playing, and you want to field the best team you can, then let her play and let things work out as they will.

If BB feels bad aboout how the other ladies feel about her playing, or if YOU are worried that the other ladies will think less of you because you are winning/advancing and they are not... then that is a decision of personal principles that really only you or BB can decide.

I'd play her, and would also realize your team might face opponents that also have their own BB... and they decided to put their BB in the lineup vs your team with no qualms.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Can you summarize this?
I'm gonna say you were wrong. No innocent person writes this much to explain.
I recently captained an 8.5 combo team where the best player on our team by a wide margin was rated 4.0 but in actuality is a high-4.5/low-5.0. Big Baller played DII tennis a decade ago and after graduation was a computer rated 4.5 for 2 or 3 years until she injured her back and had surgery. BB then sat out for 5 or 6 years during which time her game went soft and she gained a lot of weight. When she came back last summer, she, quite frankly, sucked and truly earned her losing record. Not illogically, USTA bumped her down to 4.0 at year end (they bumped her back to 4.5 this August ESL).

Over the past year, she has worked out, went from a bear to a stallion body-wise and is now scary good. Although she was rated 4.0, she continued to play 4.5 and so far this season is undefeated in singles.

When BB signed up for combo, I'd planned to use her as one of my 4.5s but then I saw the roster and, like any captain worth their competitive salt, I thought BONUS! I didn't play 4.5 this season so I had no idea she was hitting this well when I paired her with a 4.5 the first combo match. During the match, on two separate occasions she cracked the ball so hard the opposing 4.5 fell down on her butt fighting off the shot. I'm not talking about an overhead at the net player, these were groundstrokes from behind the baseline that the woman couldn't volley.

After the match, the 4.0 came off the court and stood with her captain a few feet directly behind where I was sitting, animatedly recounting the many times BB had scared skid marks out of her and her partner. When she said BB was probably illegally sandbagging, I turned around and politely told them Big Baller was computer rated so there was no point protesting. They quickly changed the subject.

To my knowledge, nobody else complained after playing her and we cruised to the finals. Our opponent was the same team from the first match and BB again found herself across the net from the 4.5 she'd knocked down. When they got on the court, one of the first things the other 4.5 said was she was so scared she wanted to cry. If she was hoping this would make BB ease up, it was a total fail. Fourth game of the match, BB tagged the woman's partner with a reflex volley while all four were in net. With tears in her eyes, the 4.5 promptly packed up her stuff and walked off the court.

Though we won that point, the other lines were more of a challenge. It had rained off and on all weekend so on Sunday, the last day, they told us we'd have to play a 10-game, no ad set and if it was rained out we'd have to do a coin toss. We may have fared better in the coin toss. They swept the last two points and took the automatic berth to State. But even though we didn't win, there's a good chance we'll still get a wildcard.

So, my question is, if you were me, would you play Big Baller at State?
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
This isn't a close question. If she's got a computer rating, she's not sandbagging.

Some players think their opponents should be penalized for improving before the computer figures out they improved. I am not one of those people.

Good luck with the WC.

I completely agree with this.

I am a computer rated 3.5 but most people I play think I'm a 4.0. Even had one guy start complaining after the first game of our match how he was sick of having to play against 4.0's in a 3.5 league. I politely sympathized with him and explained my situation and that I'm almost guaranteed to be bumped at the end of the year but until then I'm playing out the rest of my year at 3.5.

I took it easy on him (beat him 6-3,6-4), we chatted, and he left relatively happy from what I could tell.

I guess this is my long winded way of saying
#1 play her .. her rating is honest the computer just hasn't caught up with her yet.

#2 If someone complains ... have an ounce of sympathy as it sucks to be on the losing side this situation.
 

struggle

Legend
I always hate the whining from the weaker players in a given division (you usually don't see this in 4.0 and above) as if
they all consider themselves the upper echelon and only gripe when someone comes along who is clearly better.

Perhaps these folks are actually rated too high....
 

schmke

Legend
I completely agree with this.

I am a computer rated 3.5 but most people I play think I'm a 4.0. Even had one guy start complaining after the first game of our match how he was sick of having to play against 4.0's in a 3.5 league. I politely sympathized with him and explained my situation and that I'm almost guaranteed to be bumped at the end of the year but until then I'm playing out the rest of my year at 3.5.

I took it easy on him (beat him 6-3,6-4), we chatted, and he left relatively happy from what I could tell.

I'm all for having sympathy, but by taking it easy on him and not winning by what the computer expected you to, your rating could go down. If you do this enough times, you may not get bumped up as expected and you'll be in the same situation next year.

Unfortunately, the computer doesn't understand this human element and to rate players accurately assumes each player is playing to their current abilities in each match. With enough matches, the oddities get averaged out and aren't a big impact, but if you consistently play below your ability, your rating won't reflect where you should be.

Note, I'm not suggesting you did this intentionally to stay a 3.5, just pointing out a possible effect of taking it easy in a match like this.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
I'm all for having sympathy, but by taking it easy on him and not winning by what the computer expected you to, your rating could go down. If you do this enough times, you may not get bumped up as expected and you'll be in the same situation next year.

Unfortunately, the computer doesn't understand this human element and to rate players accurately assumes each player is playing to their current abilities in each match. With enough matches, the oddities get averaged out and aren't a big impact, but if you consistently play below your ability, your rating won't reflect where you should be.

Note, I'm not suggesting you did this intentionally to stay a 3.5, just pointing out a possible effect of taking it easy in a match like this.

gmatheis... I think schmke just called you a sandbagger! :) (j/k)
 

asimple

Semi-Pro
I am a computer rated 3.5 but most people I play think I'm a 4.0. Even had one guy start complaining after the first game of our match how he was sick of having to play against 4.0's in a 3.5 league. I politely sympathized with him and explained my situation and that I'm almost guaranteed to be bumped at the end of the year but until then I'm playing out the rest of my year at 3.5.

From my experience, the best way to deal with this is to beat a weaker player as quickly and badly as possible. They seem to take this much better or at least might be embarrassed enough to make a big deal. I lost a maximum of 6 games per match at 4.0 singles this year and had no issues related to the "sand-bagging" aspect although had a few issues related to standard 4.0 silliness.

My story is similar to the original topic though and while I have avoided playing 4.0 tennis I am really looking forward to combo season. My avoidance was due to boredom though as I am still a 4.0 player until I get bumped at the end of the year.
 

OrangePower

Legend
My story is similar to the original topic though and while I have avoided playing 4.0 tennis I am really looking forward to combo season. My avoidance was due to boredom though as I am still a 4.0 player until I get bumped at the end of the year.

So then the real question then is... at 8.5 combo, will you pair with a 4.5, or will you play as the 4.5 and partner with a 4.0?
 

gmatheis

Hall of Fame
I'm all for having sympathy, but by taking it easy on him and not winning by what the computer expected you to, your rating could go down. If you do this enough times, you may not get bumped up as expected and you'll be in the same situation next year.

Unfortunately, the computer doesn't understand this human element and to rate players accurately assumes each player is playing to their current abilities in each match. With enough matches, the oddities get averaged out and aren't a big impact, but if you consistently play below your ability, your rating won't reflect where you should be.

Note, I'm not suggesting you did this intentionally to stay a 3.5, just pointing out a possible effect of taking it easy in a match like this.

Good point except that this is in the summer singles league which doesn't count towards our rating. :twisted:
 

asimple

Semi-Pro
So then the real question then is... at 8.5 combo, will you pair with a 4.5, or will you play as the 4.5 and partner with a 4.0?

I'm definitely going to play as a 4.0 and have a couple of very strong 4.5 (borderline 5.0) partners lined up. I'm really looking forward to beating some people I know badly :).

I'll probably get bored of this too but I think it will be fun for a couple of matches.
 

sam_p

Professional
I'm definitely going to play as a 4.0 and have a couple of very strong 4.5 (borderline 5.0) partners lined up. I'm really looking forward to beating some people I know badly :).

I'll probably get bored of this too but I think it will be fun for a couple of matches.

Indeed, the only way to really do well at combo is to have a team composed of the stronger players at whatever level. In other words, people who will be bumped at the end of the year. The last year I was on an 8.5 team that did very well (did well at districts, a super tiebreak away from sectionals) we had four guys who were bumped up to 4.5 and one bumped to 5.0 so we were fielding a mixture of 9.0 and 9.5 teams all the time.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Sure, play her. My answer would be different if she were a self-rate.

She should use common sense, though. If you can win the point by passing someone, why go right at them and knock them on their butt?
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
Sure, play her. My answer would be different if she were a self-rate.

She should use common sense, though. If you can win the point by passing someone, why go right at them and knock them on their butt?


Hey, if its good enough for Nadal (to give Djokovic some chin music), then it should be good enough for us commoners to buzz our opponents!
 

SwankPeRFection

Hall of Fame
This thread is useless without pics. Is BB hot or not? lol This is the only thing that will decide if she should play state or not.

But seriously, her ESL is now 4.5. For next season, she has to play as a 4.5, but this season she's still technically a 4.0. Is it an advantage that she plays as a 4.5? Sure, but at state there's Combo people that play exclusively Combo because in their part of the country they don't lose their self rate because of this. So, I guess what I'm saying is... at state, you have two kinds of teams. Those who played hard to win their local leagues and have legit ratings and they probably won't make it past their own bracket and then you have the ringers who have a team full of sandbagging cheats. I say f* them up and play her. F* it if they can't deal with it.

Still want pics though. :p
 

LuckyR

Legend
I recently captained an 8.5 combo team where the best player on our team by a wide margin was rated 4.0 but in actuality is a high-4.5/low-5.0. Big Baller played DII tennis a decade ago and after graduation was a computer rated 4.5 for 2 or 3 years until she injured her back and had surgery. BB then sat out for 5 or 6 years during which time her game went soft and she gained a lot of weight. When she came back last summer, she, quite frankly, sucked and truly earned her losing record. Not illogically, USTA bumped her down to 4.0 at year end (they bumped her back to 4.5 this August ESL).

Over the past year, she has worked out, went from a bear to a stallion body-wise and is now scary good. Although she was rated 4.0, she continued to play 4.5 and so far this season is undefeated in singles.

When BB signed up for combo, I'd planned to use her as one of my 4.5s but then I saw the roster and, like any captain worth their competitive salt, I thought BONUS! I didn't play 4.5 this season so I had no idea she was hitting this well when I paired her with a 4.5 the first combo match. During the match, on two separate occasions she cracked the ball so hard the opposing 4.5 fell down on her butt fighting off the shot. I'm not talking about an overhead at the net player, these were groundstrokes from behind the baseline that the woman couldn't volley.

After the match, the 4.0 came off the court and stood with her captain a few feet directly behind where I was sitting, animatedly recounting the many times BB had scared skid marks out of her and her partner. When she said BB was probably illegally sandbagging, I turned around and politely told them Big Baller was computer rated so there was no point protesting. They quickly changed the subject.

To my knowledge, nobody else complained after playing her and we cruised to the finals. Our opponent was the same team from the first match and BB again found herself across the net from the 4.5 she'd knocked down. When they got on the court, one of the first things the other 4.5 said was she was so scared she wanted to cry. If she was hoping this would make BB ease up, it was a total fail. Fourth game of the match, BB tagged the woman's partner with a reflex volley while all four were in net. With tears in her eyes, the 4.5 promptly packed up her stuff and walked off the court.

Though we won that point, the other lines were more of a challenge. It had rained off and on all weekend so on Sunday, the last day, they told us we'd have to play a 10-game, no ad set and if it was rained out we'd have to do a coin toss. We may have fared better in the coin toss. They swept the last two points and took the automatic berth to State. But even though we didn't win, there's a good chance we'll still get a wildcard.

So, my question is, if you were me, would you play Big Baller at State?

This story brings up all kinds of issues but the OP asked a particular question.

A silly question, but a specific one. The reason I use the word "silly" is: I can't even make up a logical reason why a captain would not use BB at State. I can come up with reasons (as the OP can, hence the thread) why BB should have been played differently during the season, but after you made the decision (good or bad) to play her during the season, there is NO reason to change the plan for State.
 

Frayed Mains

New User
Sure, play her. My answer would be different if she were a self-rate.

She should use common sense, though. If you can win the point by passing someone, why go right at them and knock them on their butt?

Agree with you on the distinction between self and computer rating. Shouldn't even be a tough choice if she is computer rated.

As for passing someone vs. going at them, sometimes it's useful to buzz someone or put a dot on them...opponents don't stand their ground so much after they've taken one off the sternum, and many points are won when they just turn their backs at the first high ball. If someone makes me wear one, I don't begrudge them, I just look for the best opportunity to repay the favor!
 

asimple

Semi-Pro
Agree with you on the distinction between self and computer rating. Shouldn't even be a tough choice if she is computer rated.

As for passing someone vs. going at them, sometimes it's useful to buzz someone or put a dot on them...opponents don't stand their ground so much after they've taken one off the sternum, and many points are won when they just turn their backs at the first high ball. If someone makes me wear one, I don't begrudge them, I just look for the best opportunity to repay the favor!

I play aggressive doubles and have no issue being hit or hitting other although I always play away from the opponents when I have the opportunity.

I think the original point was that if you are a level up you should at least be a bit cautious with your shots as the pace level can be drastically different from one level to another. In this case you already have a serious advantage so there isn't really a need to blast the other team off the court or hit them. In addition when you hit twice as hard as people are used to you don't need to buzz them to get them to back down.
 
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