JRs vs Adults

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I belong to a family tennis club. One of its weakness has been supporting JR players that become competitive. Most players, by the time they are almost to varsity tennis leave to another club. I really don't have that option (distance and cost) to send my kid to another club. Plus, he splits his time between two sports so it's not like he can consistently train in a 5-days/wk class. He has used the time very efficiently and has improved to being one of the top varsity players at his school (for this year, he has the highest UTR. Last year, he was the 3rd highest with #1 and #2 having UTR11), qualified for State from the toughest league. I've been working with the tennis directly since a few years ago about supporting our competitive juniors so they don't feel like they need to move to another club.

Now, we are not talking singles State level (UTR 10) or on track to be picked up by a college (UTR 11). We are talking solid varsity players.
I checked their UTRs and most are 7. My son is 8.

So the director created a class to have them work out with a pro. He also opened it up to 4.0+ adults. I was watching last night and it was pretty interesting. The boys had a hard time concentrating as they were having too much fun trying to hit winners against the adults. Lots of UEs of course. So finally the pro (it was the director this class since the normal pro was out of town) challenged them to not lose a rally against "old guys". Albeit, respectable adult players (one is actually an ex- pro baseball player).

What I observed was that in general, the JRs had more consistent strokes when they toned things down. The JRs ran down everything; winner lobs or drop shots would be run down. The adults had a bit better shot selection and angles. I think if the kids can keep their concentration and not get caught up in the us vs them, they can learn a thing or two from the adults on shot selection and overheads. The adults can get a taste of what it's like to play against speed, consistent baseline, solid volley but maybe not the best shot selection. I could see in the short time, the kids were picking up on some of the shots the adults hit that beat them and turning it around and using it against the adults.

Some girls from my son's JTT was interested in participating, but the initial response was the class was for boys. I'm wondering if that is for their safety? I think there is only one or two adults from our club that I'd worry about safety for the girls. But these girls have played MXD and have seen hard serves and OH.

We'll see how the format goes with the adults. I see they can add a lot of value if the kids can maintain their focus. But I can also see it not being as productive if the pro lets them goof off with trick shots and such. My main focus is to have a place my son and his doubles partner can get training in until their State play-offs which is in May.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

those Jrs should be playing with 4.5s not 4.0. I dont think 4.0s would really be able to hold a solid rally against them

As for the girls, its def not for safety rules but how good are the girls? A 4.5 girl is like a 4.0 guy so that should work out fine

 

[Traffic]

those Jrs should be playing with 4.5s not 4.0. I dont think 4.0s would really be able to hold a solid rally against them

As for the girls, its def not for safety rules but how good are the girls? A 4.5 girl is like a 4.0 guy so that should work out fine

Yes, I agree that 4.5 is more appropriate level of players. The one "BUT" is that these boys would play well against 4.5 singles. But in doubles, I don't know how they would fair. My son and his partner would probably take out a good 4.0 pair just by consistency and quality of strokes. But they lack a bit of court position and shot selection. This weakness might make it hard to beat a good 4.5 pair.

Last night's drills were more singles type. There was a short amount of doubles point play. But for the most part, the 4.0 adults didn't have the consistency that the juniors had.

As far as the girls, I think they are UTR 6 and 7.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Yes, I agree that 4.5 is more appropriate level of players. The one "BUT" is that these boys would play well against 4.5 singles. But in doubles, I don't know how they would fair. My son and his partner would probably take out a good 4.0 pair just by consistency and quality of strokes. But they lack a bit of court position and shot selection. This weakness might make it hard to beat a good 4.5 pair.

Last night's drills were more singles type. There was a short amount of doubles point play. But for the most part, the 4.0 adults didn't have the consistency that the juniors had.

As far as the girls, I think they are UTR 6 and 7.

4.5 is a large range in skill level... they can be really bad (where they can't even hold a rally against me) but the good 4.5s would demolish 2, 3 star ranked juniors in doubles dropping just a few games (6-2, 6-3 ish). Most 4.5s are lower collegiate players and juniors as well. There was a 4 star recruit who is playing 4.5 and hes only 22. Juniors just don't have the power, experience, and volleys of an adult.

Singles would favor the juniors more but it depends who they play. it'd usually be down to 1 break of serve or a tiebreak

 

[Traffic]

Juniors just don't have the power, experience, and volleys of an adult.

We are talking 15/16 y/o juniors. They serve and hit as hard as adults. Maybe 14s don't have the power.
Experience is definitely on the side of adults. But the consistency and speed of the juniors is tough to overcome. Adults would have better angled volleys, but juniors again have the quick hands that keep the ball in play. Basically the longer the match goes, the more it favors the juniors.

 

[BlueB]

15-16 yo competitive juniors should be absoluty destroying the 4.0 adults and mostly winning against 4.5, playing singles.

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[dominikk1985]

Gasquet won a set against the eventual winner costa at the 2002 French open at age 15. I think tomic had an atp win at age 15 too. Nationally competitive juniors age 15-16 should easily beat 4.5 mens league players. 12-13 is different and 14 is in between but kids grow a lot between age 13 and 15 and by 16 they are almost adults with the strength.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

We are talking 15/16 y/o juniors. They serve and hit as hard as adults. Maybe 14s don't have the power.
Experience is definitely on the side of adults. But the consistency and speed of the juniors is tough to overcome. Adults would have better angled volleys, but juniors again have the quick hands that keep the ball in play. Basically the longer the match goes, the more it favors the juniors.

how old of an adult are we talking about? and how highly ranked are these juniors?

I'm talking about a 18-35 yr old adult at 4.5 and I'm from OC SoCal so this is were I base my level of 4.5 vs juniors. The good 4.5s here will smoke any 3/4 star junior 18 yr old on a given day.

 

[Traffic]

how old of an adult are we talking about? and how highly ranked are these juniors?

I'm talking about a 18-35 yr old adult at 4.5 and I'm from OC SoCal so this is were I base my level of 4.5 vs juniors. The good 4.5s here will smoke any 3/4 star junior 18 yr old on a given day.

Yeah, you SoCal players are higher than average. (But they were beat out by Texas and Mid-West(?) at JTT Nationals).
Adults are like 35-50. The juniors are UTR 7 and 8.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Juniors just don't have the power, experience, and volleys of an adult.

having lost to 2 12y old *girls* before (and boys)... they don't need the power... they just borrow mine.
1 girl went to play d1
1 girl is currently on tour
neither weighed more than 100lbs. and i was benching close to 315 at the time!
they have the timing, to counter punch...
my serve was bigger, but they are good at just blocking it back deep
their anticipation is excellent when i try to draw them in
and they are really good at keeping the ball deep, preventing me from coming in easily (or if i do, they have alot of space to hit low to my feet, or pass)
the matches were close, but don't think that because juniors are little, they can't compete with adults through 4.5 (i was very low 4.5 at the time)

by 15/16, they are crushing balls... and competing at 5.0 level (obviously talking about juniors playing deep into L1's)

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

having lost to 2 12y old *girls* before (and boys)... they don't need the power... they just borrow mine.
1 girl went to play d1
1 girl is currently on tour
neither weighed more than 100lbs. and i was benching close to 315 at the time!
they have the timing, to counter punch...
my serve was bigger, but they are good at just blocking it back deep
their anticipation is excellent when i try to draw them in
and they are really good at keeping the ball deep, preventing me from coming in easily (or if i do, they have alot of space to hit low to my feet, or pass)
the matches were close, but don't think that because juniors are little, they can't compete with adults through 4.5 (i was very low 4.5 at the time)

by 15/16, they are crushing balls... and competing at 5.0 level (obviously talking about juniors playing deep into L1's)

to be perfectly honest, I find that quite strange having hit with you. You should be able to beat any 12 yr old unless you weren't playing too well or feeling well.
By bigger serve and them blocking I usually would kick it wide and serve and volley and they have a hard time getting it back deep or solid. I have only seen 2 kids at that age competing at open level and winning. Most can only compete in juniors and thats why adults are paid as hitting coaches so juniors get used to adult pace and beatdown juniors who dont hit as hard.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

to be perfectly honest, I find that quite strange having hit with you. You should be able to beat any 12 yr old unless you weren't playing too well or feeling well.
By bigger serve and them blocking I usually would kick it wide and serve and volley and they have a hard time getting it back deep or solid. I have only seen 2 kids at that age competing at open level and winning. Most can only compete in juniors and thats why adults are paid as hitting coaches so juniors get used to adult pace and beatdown juniors who dont hit as hard.

thx, i appreciate the compliment... but i think you're underestimating how good some 12y olds are.
on avg, they mostly suck... but the top competitive ones, going deep into L1's or itf's... they are taking everything on the rise, and placing it well...
placement beats power any day, everyday.

my goto serve is a kicker to the bh,... especially against someone my height or shorter (both these girls were shorter than me)... and they move in, take it on the rise asap.

more proof... itf 12's:
https://www.juniororangebowl.org/what-we-do/sports/tennis.html
G12 – Linda Fruhvirtova (CZE) def. Alexandra Eala (PHL) 6-7(4), 6-3, 6-2
Linda - UTR12 - https://www.myutr.com/profiles/275641
Alexandra - UTR11 - https://www.myutr.com/profiles/382173

i'm only utr9, so i expect both these girls to crush me... obviously this is best in the world... but you can imagine that the draw was utr10-12 (all still better than me)... my point is, that by 12 the kids (b & g) have the ability (timing) to beat 4.5 rec adults who are 2-3x phsyically stronger than them.

 

[ReopeningWed]

That tennis club sounds way too casual and I'm not surprised that the competitive boys are leaving.

 

[jmnk]

how old of an adult are we talking about? and how highly ranked are these juniors?

I'm talking about a 18-35 yr old adult at 4.5 and I'm from OC SoCal so this is were I base my level of 4.5 vs juniors. The good 4.5s here will smoke any 3/4 star junior 18 yr old on a given day.

ok, so according to TennisRecruiting the 100th ranked senior (i.e. 18y r old) is a 4 star player. He happens to have 11.92 UTR ranking. Please let me know a computer ranked 4.5 that has UTR ranking remotely close to that. Or, since any good 4.5 should 'smoke' such 18 yr old 4 star junior, let me know a 4.5 player that is like mid 12 on UTR as he would have to be around 12.50 to 'smoke' anyone with ~12UTR.

 

[FiReFTW]

ok, so according to TennisRecruiting the 100th ranked senior (i.e. 18y r old) is a 4 star player. He happens to have 11.92 UTR ranking. Please let me know a computer ranked 4.5 that has UTR ranking remotely close to that. Or, since any good 4.5 should 'smoke' such 18 yr old 4 star junior, let me know a 4.5 player that is like mid 12 on UTR as he would have to be around 12.50 to 'smoke' anyone with ~12UTR.

As far as I know juniors are rated higher than adults, theres been some discussion on this forum already, so a 11UTR adult would be very competitive with such a player and able to beat him.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

ok, so according to TennisRecruiting the 100th ranked senior (i.e. 18y r old) is a 4 star player. He happens to have 11.92 UTR ranking. Please let me know a computer ranked 4.5 that has UTR ranking remotely close to that. Or, since any good 4.5 should 'smoke' such 18 yr old 4 star junior, let me know a 4.5 player that is like mid 12 on UTR as he would have to be around 12.50 to 'smoke' anyone with ~12UTR.

i dont have a real UTR rating bc i mainly play doubles but I am a hitting coach for 4/5 stars (im paid to play with them) and i usually smoke the 4 stars as a 4.5 computer rated. You don't need to have a UTR rating to be at a certain level especially when its a fresh system

 

[rogerroger917]

i dont have a real UTR rating bc i mainly play doubles but I am a hitting coach for 4/5 stars (im paid to play with them) and i usually smoke the 4 stars as a 4.5 computer rated. You don't need to have a UTR rating to be at a certain level especially when its a fresh system

Are those 4 or 5 stars 12? The 5 stars 17 or 18 year olds are going into D1 college teams. They all have 12 plus utr. You are not beating any of them. Did you play D1?

 

[rogerroger917]

As far as I know juniors are rated higher than adults, theres been some discussion on this forum already, so a 11UTR adult would be very competitive with such a player and able to beat him.

Stop talking about things you have no experience with. I know kids that play adult open against adult men. Utr stacks up very well. My son played in some opens and against 5.0 ntrp with established utr and those scores track very well. He plays ITF as well and the utr tracks well adults vs jr. My 17 year old kid is utr 12plus and a ntrp 5.0 is not beating him anytime. Unless he has similar utr. A 10 utr adult is not beating a 12 utr junior 17 year old.

but yes a 11 utr can beat a 12 utr regardless of age. thats close enough.

Only on here is some 4.5 adult that didn't even play in a D1 or D2 team thinks they can beat a 12 utr junior. Not happening. These kids at 12 plus utr are going to play at good D1 schools as freshmen.

 

[rogerroger917]

Do you guys know how many matches it takes to get to a 12 plus utr for a junior?

 

[jmnk]

As far as I know juniors are rated higher than adults, theres been some discussion on this forum already, so a 11UTR adult would be very competitive with such a player and able to beat him.

two points.
1) there are indeed many threads on UTR to NTRP rankings comparison. Most of them are based on a single instance of some adult with NTRP ranking playing a non-sanctioned match against UTR ranked junior, and then declaring that the official conversion table is all wrong. When you read all of those threads, and comparison examples, you would actually notice that the official conversion is not that far off.
2) let's say we agree that adults are under-rated. So instead of good 4.5 male mapping to ~9UTR let;s assume he should be like UTR 10.30. He is still not beating a junior that is 11.92. And he is definitely not smoking him.

 

[jmnk]

i dont have a real UTR rating bc i mainly play doubles but I am a hitting coach for 4/5 stars (im paid to play with them) and i usually smoke the 4 stars as a 4.5 computer rated. You don't need to have a UTR rating to be at a certain level especially when its a fresh system

I'm not suggesting that _you_ are not beating 4/5 stars 18 yr old. I'm saying that if you _do_ you are not 4.5 player. You are apparently way better than that. And because of you being apparently grossly misrated in NTRP you should not be using yourself as an example of what a properly ranked NTRP 4.5 male player would be able to manage against 3/4/5 star 18 yr old.
p.s. Didn't you in fact mentioned in the past that you play doubles almost exclusively to, ahem, 'hide' your true level?

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Are those 4 or 5 stars 12? The 5 stars 17 or 18 year olds are going into D1 college teams. They all have 12 plus utr. You are not beating any of them. Did you play D1?

16/17 yr olds. I played club tennis for USTA: Tennis On Campus and community college. I haven't beaten any 5 stars but I give them good matches

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

I'm not suggesting that _you_ are not beating 4/5 stars 18 yr old. I'm saying that if you _do_ you are not 4.5 player. You are way better than that. And because of that no properly ranked NTRP 4.5 male player is beating such 3/4/5 star 18 yr old.
p.s. Didn't you in fact mentioned in the past that you play doubles almost exclusively to, ahem, 'hide' your true level?

Well I was a 5.0 appeal but I have lost some 4.5 matches against solid players so 4.5 is pretty dang strong (making me a 4.5). But they are 4.5 who went undefeated throughout nationals so they're probs 5.0 technically. I play doubles bc I enjoy it more. Singles is just a grind. Doubles I actually hit shots to win the point.

FYI Matthew Lin is also a 4.5 who has beaten 4 & 5 stars as well. He gave Joseph diGuilio (UCLA varsity) a good match at junior sectionals for 18s

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Do you guys know how many matches it takes to get to a 12 plus utr for a junior?

a lot, at that level they can win easily against most players just bc they played so much tennis (they just know how to win). But with me being around 8-10 yrs older, I have played and seen more.

 

[rogerroger917]

16/17 yr olds. I played club tennis for USTA: Tennis On Campus and community college. I haven't beaten any 5 stars but I give them good matches

Why don't you play some men's opens singles and get a singles utr rating? And a singles ntrp rating. If you can hear 4 star and keep up with utr 13 5 star you are not a 4.5 in singles.

My son is a 12.56 utr. He has beat every 5.0 adult we know at the club. Easily. Including all the coaches.

I don't know what club usta or tennis on campus is. So don't know what level that is.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Stop talking about things you have no experience with. I know kids that play adult open against adult men. Utr stacks up very well. My son played in some opens and against 5.0 ntrp with established utr and those scores track very well. He plays ITF as well and the utr tracks well adults vs jr. My 17 year old kid is utr 12plus and a ntrp 5.0 is not beating him anytime. Unless he has similar utr. A 10 utr adult is not beating a 12 utr junior 17 year old.

but yes a 11 utr can beat a 12 utr regardless of age. thats close enough.

Only on here is some 4.5 adult that didn't even play in a D1 or D2 team thinks they can beat a 12 utr junior. Not happening. These kids at 12 plus utr are going to play at good D1 schools as freshmen.

5.0s are all filled with former D1 players

 

[rogerroger917]

Well I was a 5.0 appeal but I have lost some 4.5 matches against solid players so 4.5 is pretty dang strong (making me a 4.5). But they are 4.5 who went undefeated throughout nationals so they're probs 5.0 technically. I play doubles bc I enjoy it more. Singles is just a grind. Doubles I actually hit shots to win the point.

FYI Matthew Lin is also a 4.5 who has beaten 4 & 5 stars as well. He gave Joseph diGuilio (UCLA varsity) a good match at junior sectionals for 18s

But he was also a top.junior right? It wasn't like Matt Linn played him as an adult. He was just like diGuuilio

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Why don't you play some men's opens singles and get a singles utr rating? And a singles ntrp rating. If you can hear 4 star and keep up with utr 13 5 star you are not a 4.5 in singles.

My son is a 12.56 utr. He has beat every 5.0 adult we know at the club. Easily. Including all the coaches.

I don't know what club usta or tennis on campus is. So don't know what level that is.

I play men's opens for doubles but I have only 1 lung so I don't play singles much and I just don't really enjoy singles as much as doubles. As for Matt Lin yeah he was a junior but hes been playing men's opens (doubles tho) and beating the juniors that appear there

 

[ChaelAZ]

I belong to a family tennis club. One of its weakness has been supporting JR players that become competitive. Most players, by the time they are almost to varsity tennis leave to another club. I really don't have that option (distance and cost) to send my kid to another club.

Been there too with my son. Our club didn't have coaches who could push kids past a certain point, so we ended up having to have him play at another club. However, we still had him in certain classes at our local club for practice. The mentality there is, no matter WHO is around you hitting, you are fed balls to you and YOU need to hit your shots. Not ideal, but manageble. We also had my son work into our 4.0 practices and hit with some of the 4.5 and college players as well. With all that, I have had a lot of opportunities to hit with a good variety of levels. With lower level juniors I can challenge them, but with higher ranked juniors and up, I am basically a decent warm up or just rally ball. Haven't hit with too many of them in the last year, just based on my issues and movement.

But even hitting with one of the college kids a few months back, we had a decent warm up, but he didn't need to be muddling with 4.0 players too much, even in off-season. So yeah, while we are always supposed to be able to impose and play our game against whomever we play, playing down too much can also have detrimental effects with loosing pace and competitive edge. It is always better practice for the lower ranked players in those situtations.

Fine line there from what I have seen.

 

[jmnk]

[...] As for Matt Lin yeah he was a junior but hes been playing men's opens (doubles tho) and beating the juniors that appear there

[...]
FYI Matthew Lin is also a 4.5 who has beaten 4 & 5 stars as well. He gave Joseph diGuilio (UCLA varsity) a good match at junior sectionals for 18s

ok, I'm now confused as to what your argument is. Matt is a very high 4.5, if he played USTA singles and not 'trying' to stay at 4.5 he would likely be 5.0. Now. Which is what, 6-7 years after he played Joseph? He was likely at least 5.5 back when he played him, at the time when he actually actively practiced at least semi-seriously. I do not know how that argument supports your thesis that 4.5 can smoke UTR 11.50?
Matt is indeed playing some open USTA tournaments now. He is doing very well. Still, he is not beating any player that is above like 10.50. Which is pretty sad for all of us 4.5 players, but that is the truth. And yet you claim that a solid 4.5 can smoke UTR 11.90 player...... That is just not supported by any facts.

How about that. There are few open or UTR tournaments where players with both USTA and UTR rankings play. Why don't you find few verifiable examples where a computer ranked NTRP 4.5 player beats UTR 11.50 and above?

 

[rogerroger917]

5.0s are all filled with former D1 players

Yeah and you think a guy 35 years old playing 3 times a week at most can hang with a kid going to Stanford playing tennis that's been training 6 days a week for the past 6 years?

 

[rogerroger917]

I play men's opens for doubles but I have only 1 lung so I don't play singles much and I just don't really enjoy singles as much as doubles. As for Matt Lin yeah he was a junior but hes been playing men's opens (doubles tho) and beating the juniors that appear there

Sorry about the health issue. But you sort of prove my point. Matt was not at 4.5 level as a junior. I'd say past 5.0 if he played sectionals and advanced a few round. In so cal. Glad he can still play but come on. He is still young so yes can be very good.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Well I was a 5.0 appeal but I have lost some 4.5 matches against solid players so 4.5 is pretty dang strong (making me a 4.5). But they are 4.5 who went undefeated throughout nationals so they're probs 5.0 technically. I play doubles bc I enjoy it more. Singles is just a grind. Doubles I actually hit shots to win the point.

FYI Matthew Lin is also a 4.5 who has beaten 4 & 5 stars as well. He gave Joseph diGuilio (UCLA varsity) a good match at junior sectionals for 18s

just checked... 4.5S
and he beat one high 4.5 pretty handily
utr10... so probably close to 5.0, but he's managing his ntrp rating.
mostly plays dubs... so i'd put my money on sandbagging, which is cool... as i get to play a higher qual person if i play him

[edit]
looked at his tourney record.. lost to all 11's, mostly decisively...
so he's probably a high 4.5, or low-mid 5.0
the 5.5 on my club 5.0+ team, is a utr11 (formerly played futures, but is now out of shape)

***

also how old are these 4/5 star recruits?
ie. as 12y 4/5 star might be utr8-9 (i have lost/won against this level)
but a 17y old 4/5 star might be utr11-13 (i have no chance)
https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/Boys.asp

 

[FiReFTW]

Stop talking about things you have no experience with. I know kids that play adult open against adult men. Utr stacks up very well. My son played in some opens and against 5.0 ntrp with established utr and those scores track very well. He plays ITF as well and the utr tracks well adults vs jr. My 17 year old kid is utr 12plus and a ntrp 5.0 is not beating him anytime. Unless he has similar utr. A 10 utr adult is not beating a 12 utr junior 17 year old.

but yes a 11 utr can beat a 12 utr regardless of age. thats close enough.

Only on here is some 4.5 adult that didn't even play in a D1 or D2 team thinks they can beat a 12 utr junior. Not happening. These kids at 12 plus utr are going to play at good D1 schools as freshmen.

Im not claiming anything tho, I just said that theres some discussion ongoing on this forum in a few threads and most people seem to claim that adult UTR is underrated and not accurate.

Personally I have no clue and no experience about this at all, so no clue whats correct or false here, but alot of people here seem to claim its wrong.

 

[BlueB]

Matt is much higher then 4.5, from what we've seen from him in the past.

Marina is the guy who aced Djokovic (for real). It was a trick serve but still aced him.

Just for perspective...

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[rogerroger917]

just checked... 4.5S
and he beat one high 4.5 pretty handily
utr10... so probably close to 5.0, but he's managing his ntrp rating.
mostly plays dubs... so i'd put my money on sandbagging, which is cool... as i get to play a higher qual person if i play him

So.... don't people really dislike players that play down and lose games on purpose to not get bumped? Or it it ok now?

 

[rogerroger917]

Matt is much higher then 4.5, from what we've seen from him in the past.

Marina is the guy who aced Djokovic (for real). It was a trick serve but still aced him.

Just for perspective...

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

So guy like Matt shows up for league match and he has to play a guy like Shroud? How is that even the same thing? I think Shroud is a low 4.5 if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Im not claiming anything tho, I just said that theres some discussion ongoing on this forum in a few threads and most people seem to claim that adult UTR is underrated and not accurate.

Personally I have no clue and no experience about this at all, so no clue whats correct or false here, but alot of people here seem to claim its wrong.

by virtue of ntrp including singles/doubles results... i'd only use utr as the sole measure
then you can compare apples to apples... +/-1 UTR should be competitive with one another...
there are some inaccuracies, but usually because folks don't have enough matches (or don't want to accept the truth)... for the most part, utr seems accurate

 

[Deleted member 23235]

So.... don't people really dislike players that play down and lose games on purpose to not get bumped? Or it it ok now?

i always appreciated sandbaggers as a free lesson.

 

[Deleted member 54265]

I play with some of the best juniors in my country, I dont know much about rankings, but I guess I am about 5.0 or so +/-, here is my take.

Top 10 juniors, who play international tournaments:

Boys age:

12: No problem, they cant match the power.
13: Getting closer, but I still have the edge, but it is a close call..
14: Now I am in problems, but still a close call. I have a better serve.
15: Forget about it, I am beeing outplayed by a big margin
16: One junior here just had a win over a top 400 ATP player.

Girls: one year behind boys up til about 14-15, then the boys take off.

Girls, the breaking point are about 14-15, then I am out.

Remember we are talking about really really good junior players.

Cheers, Toby

 

[FiReFTW]

by virtue of ntrp including singles/doubles results... i'd only use utr as the sole measure
then you can compare apples to apples... +/-1 UTR should be competitive with one another...
there are some inaccuracies, but usually because folks don't have enough matches (or don't want to accept the truth)... for the most part, utr seems accurate

Yes good point.

Whats your take on NTRP conversions to UTR and their accuracy?

According to Myutr, a 8UTR is already a 5.0 NTRP player, seems quite ridicilous, since I know 8UTR and 9UTR junior girls from around here and im pretty sure 5.0 NTRP should beat them.

 

[BlueB]

I play with some of the best juniors in my country, I dont know much about rankings, but I guess I am about 5.0 or so +/-, here is my take.

Top 10 juniors, who play international tournaments:

Boys age:

12: No problem, they cant match the power.
13: Getting closer, but I still have the edge, but it is a close call..
14: Now I am in problems, but still a close call. I have a better serve.
15: Forget about it, I am beeing outplayed by a big margin
16: One junior here just had a win over a top 400 ATP player.

Girls: one year behind boys up til about 14-15, then the boys take off.

Girls, the breaking point are about 14-15, then I am out.

Remember we are talking about really really good junior players.

Cheers, Toby

There, finally some sanity, in this thread.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

 

[rogerroger917]

Yes good point.

Whats your take on NTRP conversions to UTR and their accuracy?

According to Myutr, a 8UTR is already a 5.0 NTRP player, seems quite ridicilous, since I know 8UTR and 9UTR junior girls from around here and im pretty sure 5.0 NTRP should beat them.

8 utr is a 4.5 men Intermediate level. Utr 9 starts 5.0 men. Which seems accurate to me. Little girls at utr 9? Yes the power of adults can overwhelm. But then again. I've seen a 4 ft 5 12 year old girl dismantled a 4.5 adult. I don't know her utr. She was just tiny and smashed the ball. Hitting out of her shoes every shot.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Yes good point.

Whats your take on NTRP conversions to UTR and their accuracy?

According to Myutr, a 8UTR is already a 5.0 NTRP player, seems quite ridicilous, since I know 8UTR and 9UTR junior girls from around here and im pretty sure 5.0 NTRP should beat them.

guessing you’re using the heat map... just use the red as a starting point.
like most you’re probably comparing the “the best 5.0 In your area” as the “avg 5.0”. what’s the 5.0’s utr?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ChaelAZ]

So guy like Matt shows up for league match and he has to play a guy like Shroud? How is that even the same thing? I think Shroud is a low 4.5 if I'm not mistaken.

@Shroud

 

[Deleted member 54265]

Just foud out via Myutr that one of my regular hitting partner has a registred UTR @ 13 - we only just have friendly hits, play a few games (no wins for me ever) but it is so great to just hit balls with a gret player.

Only the very very best juniors past 16/17 can take him on.

Cheers, Toby

 

[FiReFTW]

guessing you’re using the heat map... just use the red as a starting point.
like most you’re probably comparing the “the best 5.0 In your area” as the “avg 5.0”. what’s the 5.0’s utr?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to the heatmap its

Men 3.5 NTRP = 3UTR - 6UTR
Men 4.0 NTRP = 4.5UTR - 7.5UTR
Men 4.5 NTRP = 6UTR - 9UTR
Men 5.0 NTRP = 8UTR - 11UTR

What I find intereting is that the differences are so little, the average 4.0 is 6UTR, the average 4.5 is 7.5UTR, only a 1.5 difference and 1-+ UTR is a very competitive match, but as far as I know an average 4.5 would completely dismantle the average 4.0, or am I missing something?

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

Sorry about the health issue. But you sort of prove my point. Matt was not at 4.5 level as a junior. I'd say past 5.0 if he played sectionals and advanced a few round. In so cal. Glad he can still play but come on. He is still young so yes can be very good.

https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=652462 (4 star)
https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp (5 star, now plays for NYU - used to beat him all the time growing up but now I lose competitively, hes a family friend so it could be im just used to his game with 10 years playing against him)
https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player.asp?id=672078 (4 star; former blue chip - still beat him to this very day; also family friend, hes actually playing 4.5 now)

UTR:
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/77183 just lost in a men's open doubles semis to him; first set i got creamed but second set was a tiebreaker

Both matt and I have beaten jordan (4 star) at sectionals for tennis on campus 6-2. This guy had a really good team tho to carry and they went to get third in the nation, we lost in the mixed doubles at sudden death WTT

 

[Shroud]

@Shroud

I will never tell.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

So guy like Matt shows up for league match and he has to play a guy like Shroud? How is that even the same thing? I think Shroud is a low 4.5 if I'm not mistaken.

well the thing is 4.5 is a huge population and spectrum. You'll find guys like me and matt, then guys better than us, and guys much worse. I guess the average 4.5 isn't close to our level but we are still 4.5 and we haven't managed our rating. We're competitive and not down to disrespect our tennis or other's tennis by letting up on ppl.

Being in Socal I'll see guys who played for Cal Poly SLO varsity playing 4.0, UC Irvines team being at 5.0 playing the mixed season, etc. So it could be that California's average 4.5 is really high vs other places but where we're at, Im a normal 4.5