kick serve, how to change direction?
- Thread starter gull_man
- Start date
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
You need to take some time and study what internal shoulder rotation is on a serve. For a kick serve, the chest is pointing more to the right (for a RH server.) There are other changes also that affect the direction that the strings face, amount & timing of ISR, amount & timing of pronation (probably set in before the forceful ISR begins, a learned thing) - all of which affect the direction that the strings face at impact.
When you are confident to think in terms of ISR on the serve you will see how the variables that you mention fit together. But knowing them is still a lot more work, requiring 3D high speed motion capture systems. If you have another serving technique, such as the Waiter's Tray, none of it pertains. That is why you should get a high speed video of your serving technique.
Nobody is going to be able to make it clear in a paragraph of text. It is possible to see the ISR in high speed videos as well as the direction that the strings face. You will also see that string direction changes very fast, say, 1 degree per millisecond. You can't describe these complex motions very well in text.
ISR is clear in most of these videos BUT it lasts only 1/4 second when a 240 fps recording is played back at 30 fps. Look at these videos until you can see the very forceful and rapid rotation of the straight arm just before impact. That is, in about the 7 frames just before impact.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos
Search TW: internal shoulder rotation Chas Tennis
When you are confident to think in terms of ISR on the serve you will see how the variables that you mention fit together. But knowing them is still a lot more work, requiring 3D high speed motion capture systems. If you have another serving technique, such as the Waiter's Tray, none of it pertains. That is why you should get a high speed video of your serving technique.
Nobody is going to be able to make it clear in a paragraph of text. It is possible to see the ISR in high speed videos as well as the direction that the strings face. You will also see that string direction changes very fast, say, 1 degree per millisecond. You can't describe these complex motions very well in text.
ISR is clear in most of these videos BUT it lasts only 1/4 second when a 240 fps recording is played back at 30 fps. Look at these videos until you can see the very forceful and rapid rotation of the straight arm just before impact. That is, in about the 7 frames just before impact.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos
Search TW: internal shoulder rotation Chas Tennis
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Tight Lines
Professional
Direction depends on the racket face angle at impact. There is no magic formula here, except to practice a lot of serves. For me, the cue that I use is the direction of my front foot (left foot in my case). I point it slightly differently depending on whether I want to serve to body, right or left. That doesn't mean it works all the time.
If you have a platform serve, you might want to try that with your back foot. I remember seeing a youtube video some time ago by some Russian pro who says you can control the direction by the way your back foot is pointing.
Harry
If you have a platform serve, you might want to try that with your back foot. I remember seeing a youtube video some time ago by some Russian pro who says you can control the direction by the way your back foot is pointing.
Harry
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
It is a little more complicated.
At impact, the vertical component of the racket's strings changes - closes - at about 1 degree per millisecond as can be seen in high speed videos from the camera side view. The horizontal component rapidly rotates from ISR. Also impact lasts about 3-5 milliseconds during which time the strings deform. The center of the racket strings also moves in various directions for different serves.
Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection for light and elastic balls bouncing off of hard plane surfaces. Maybe there is a pretty close analogy for a near stationary racket and low velocity tennis ball. ? I do use the concept in volleying....
Maybe Rod Cross has dealt with some cases, experimenting with stationary rackets. But I would like to see some science before buying that the angle of the strings at impact determines the ball direction. There is an angle at contact but it changes considerably during the 3-5 milliseconds of impact.
At impact, the vertical component of the racket's strings changes - closes - at about 1 degree per millisecond as can be seen in high speed videos from the camera side view. The horizontal component rapidly rotates from ISR. Also impact lasts about 3-5 milliseconds during which time the strings deform. The center of the racket strings also moves in various directions for different serves.
Angle of incidence equals angle of reflection for light and elastic balls bouncing off of hard plane surfaces. Maybe there is a pretty close analogy for a near stationary racket and low velocity tennis ball. ? I do use the concept in volleying....
Maybe Rod Cross has dealt with some cases, experimenting with stationary rackets. But I would like to see some science before buying that the angle of the strings at impact determines the ball direction. There is an angle at contact but it changes considerably during the 3-5 milliseconds of impact.
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Do you mean change the direction of the racquet from the drop or the ball?
Topspin Shot
Legend
This. 10 char
JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
The kick serves wide in the ad and down the T in the deuce are the product of left ball placement first and foremost.
But the rotation of the hand arm and racket in the upward swing is critical, driven by what biomechanicists call internal shoulder rotation. I've taken a close look at this recently as it happens.
In high level serves, the racket face turns over until it is basically perpendicular to court in the followthrough.
BUT on the kick serves the turning of the racket face starts sooner. The racket does not stay on edge--a few milliseconds before contact it is rotating rapidly.
This changes the angle of racket approach and the angle of the racket face at contact.
The difference between hitting the corners in the service boxes is only a few degrees in the timing of the turning of the racket face. Some players just do this by feel. But if you want to develop it specifically you need to understand the rotation and then, using high speed video feedback, work to develop the differences in the timing until you can incorporate them into a natural feel and a mental image.
But the rotation of the hand arm and racket in the upward swing is critical, driven by what biomechanicists call internal shoulder rotation. I've taken a close look at this recently as it happens.
In high level serves, the racket face turns over until it is basically perpendicular to court in the followthrough.
BUT on the kick serves the turning of the racket face starts sooner. The racket does not stay on edge--a few milliseconds before contact it is rotating rapidly.
This changes the angle of racket approach and the angle of the racket face at contact.
The difference between hitting the corners in the service boxes is only a few degrees in the timing of the turning of the racket face. Some players just do this by feel. But if you want to develop it specifically you need to understand the rotation and then, using high speed video feedback, work to develop the differences in the timing until you can incorporate them into a natural feel and a mental image.
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taurussable
Professional
something I am always puzzled with: is it serve direction controlled more by the timing of pronation or by the foot orientation?
The pros like Federer seem to have the same feet orientation for both T and wide serves. Maybe rec players can get by simply by reorienting the feet?
No he doesn't. No person on this planet needs to understand "internal shoulder rotation" to hit a great kick serve. Omg at this "internal shoulder rotation" mumbo jumbo.
It's one nutcase carrying on and on about it.
Kick serving isn't rocket science. Throw the ball over your head, brush upwards, practice. If you can hit a top spin groundie and understand what your doing, apply the same principle to serving, and then PRACTICE.
OMFG. How overly complicated can you make things on this forum?!?!?!
No one needs to think when serving in terms of ISR and no one needs a 3D high speed motion capture system to hit a good serve. This is garbage and everyone on this forum should see it for what it is.
taurussable
Professional
opinions vary but I find the more technical posts here very helpful: especially for someone like me who doesn't have a coach
corbind
Professional
As a general rule, I prefer to have very technical info on most things. Yea, the amount that glazes over the collective eyes of most readers. I also want concise video or real-world application in addition to augment the reading.
In college I never once hit a topspin/kick serve. Yet when I got back into tennis after a long layoff I learned one. Learned it not by reading anything just trial-and-error during matches. Initially there were a ton of errors but now kickers are my go to serve.
I thing the vast majority of people can't learn it via text. In an ideal world I'd have 3 camera videoing simultaneously. Then at playback have all three play on one screen simultaneously each 1/3 the screen. And playback would be back at 5% normal speed. Would be even better with some visual cues on the screen like a ball toss flight path superimposed and some feet/inches/meter markers for vertical, horizontal planes.
Or we can go old school. How do kids learn kickers without books or videos? Monkeying around until it somehow works.
In college I never once hit a topspin/kick serve. Yet when I got back into tennis after a long layoff I learned one. Learned it not by reading anything just trial-and-error during matches. Initially there were a ton of errors but now kickers are my go to serve.
I thing the vast majority of people can't learn it via text. In an ideal world I'd have 3 camera videoing simultaneously. Then at playback have all three play on one screen simultaneously each 1/3 the screen. And playback would be back at 5% normal speed. Would be even better with some visual cues on the screen like a ball toss flight path superimposed and some feet/inches/meter markers for vertical, horizontal planes.
Or we can go old school. How do kids learn kickers without books or videos? Monkeying around until it somehow works.
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So NOW you are telling me that? AFTER I've spent my family retirement funds on 3D high speed motion system to improve my serve and see what this ISR is? Couldn't you at least wait till I realize it does not help one bit, and I try to sell this system to some common sense challenged poster here....
you are a bad man, a very, very bad man ..... :wink:
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President
Legend
I went out today and hit a bunch of serves, I'm finally getting some decent kick on my kick (or are they twist?) serves. Just takes practice, I guess.
it does take practice, but also some piece of knowledge can make a difference too. i see some high A grade junior players struggle on their serve (faulting badly, or no topsin at all), and i think there is just something they don't know or do that would fix it. i think this because their fh and bh are much better - they can hit the ball well enough, but their serve is a mess for some reason.
i seem to have gotten a break through today on my second serve. see my next post (new topic - serve placement ) if interested. . .
and i'm very grateful for all the posts. i do read them - even the technical ones.
i seem to have gotten a break through today on my second serve. see my next post (new topic - serve placement ) if interested. . .
and i'm very grateful for all the posts. i do read them - even the technical ones.
Tight Lines
Professional
For me, what I try to achieve is a slight change in swing path. My foot placement seems to work to vary the swing path. The reason why you don't see it in the pros is that at that level, I believe the opponent can read it even though the foot angle may be slight.
Harry
FogerRederer
Rookie
Lol all at his technical mumbo jumbo. I learned it by watching pros do it, watching my friend do it, and with a basket of balls until they went dead. IMO, the one thing that holds most people back (at least the juniors at my club) from learning the kick serve is that they don't produce enough racquet head speed to actually impart enough top-spin. They're too scared of hitting it out, that they prevent the one thing that will keep the ball from going out.
