Forehand - Minimizing Lag to Improve Trajectory Control

[rosheem]

Hi all,

Sharing some learnings here as I continue working on my strokes and bringing my game from strong 4.0 to strong 4.5.

My most common error on the forehand is hitting the ball higher than I intend and missing long.

Of all the possible causes, I had been suspecting that my racquet face was opening during the lag/catch-up transition into the forward swing as I was pulling the butt cap forward.

(There is a similarity to my golf swing here, where too much lag/wrist action in the backswing can cause the club face to open, resulting in a slice)

I've been trying to play around with different tweaks to minimize the opportunity for the face to open during this lag/catch-up phase.

What has worked really well is trying to completely eliminate the lag. It's probably more of a feel thing vs. a real thing...I'm sure there is still some lag going on, but it's happening in a much more controlled, abbreviated, compact way. This seems to prevent that momentary loss of feel of racquet head orientation, resulting in much more consistent trajectory without sacrificing any spin or power.

I'm going to need to get some video to see what is actually happening vs. what it feels like. But for now, it's been very helpful to understand that for me, a massive lag and snap isn't really necessary for spin and pace.

 

[nyta2]

Hi all,

Sharing some learnings here as I continue working on my strokes and bringing my game from strong 4.0 to strong 4.5.

My most common error on the forehand is hitting the ball higher than I intend and missing long.

Of all the possible causes, I had been suspecting that my racquet face was opening during the lag/catch-up transition into the forward swing as I was pulling the butt cap forward.

(There is a similarity to my golf swing here, where too much lag/wrist action in the backswing can cause the club face to open, resulting in a slice)

I've been trying to play around with different tweaks to minimize the opportunity for the face to open during this lag/catch-up phase.

What has worked really well is trying to completely eliminate the lag. It's probably more of a feel thing vs. a real thing...I'm sure there is still some lag going on, but it's happening in a much more controlled, abbreviated, compact way. This seems to prevent that momentary loss of feel of racquet head orientation, resulting in much more consistent trajectory without sacrificing any spin or power.

I'm going to need to get some video to see what is actually happening vs. what it feels like. But for now, it's been very helpful to understand that for me, a massive lag and snap isn't really necessary for spin and pace.

something to consider...
there's at least a handful of folks at the 4.5 level i play with that have been trying to incorporate lag into their swing, with the intent of hitting "bigger"
they are control players with very good accuracy, but when playing bigger hitters, they just get hit off the court
one camp just stuck with no-lag, control play - and focus on consistency and weathering the big hitters but keeping them off balance
other camp fully committed to the lag swing - required quite a bit of training, but you can tell a difference in the power/spin they were generating
(third camp, does a flip simulating what the lag looks like, but to me looks more like a wta swing - which is fine, but they got there trying to do an atp style lag fh)

doing the flip lag thing... it is common for beginngers i teach to open their face... some ways to combat that
* put a tennis ball on their racquet in the "pat the dog" phase, and encourage them to keep it their as long as possible
* challenge them to hit with the top edge of the frame
* at the "pat the dog" phase, touch the ground behind them
* practice hitting the topspin pro (or net), dozens and dozens of times (keeping the bend in their wrist the entire time).. until it's learned
* slowly swinging, hold the tip of their racquet, so they can pull and feel where their hand should be (common issu is straightening their wrist which flisp the racquet open)
others?

 

[rosheem]

* put a tennis ball on their racquet in the "pat the dog" phase, and encourage them to keep it their as long as possible
* challenge them to hit with the top edge of the frame
* at the "pat the dog" phase, touch the ground behind them
* practice hitting the topspin pro (or net), dozens and dozens of times (keeping the bend in their wrist the entire time).. until it's learned
* slowly swinging, hold the tip of their racquet, so they can pull and feel where their hand should be (common issu is straightening their wrist which flisp the racquet open)
others?

Those are all great, thanks for sharing!

One other note I'll mention related to the stretch-shortening cycle and how it relates to lag: There are times when I'm using the rebound effect between full supination of the forearm and pronation: like allowing the forearm to twist open during the lag, and then letting in "untwist" or pronate, through contact. This can definitely add some zip to the ball, but it introduces the need to find perfect timing between that supination/pronation transition in order to get the face at the perfect angle. Again, similar in golf to letting the face open during the backswing and then needing to consciously close it through the forward swing. Requires great timing that can easily be thrown off.

One way to allow the arm to fully supinate before "un-twisting" through contact would be to use a more full western grip, where even if you pronate way late and after contact, your racquet face is still slightly closed, even in the fully supinated/open/underhand stone-skipping orientation. For me, this grip is to extreme, so finding ways to minimize supination has been more helpful.

 

[nyta2]

Those are all great, thanks for sharing!

One other note I'll mention related to the stretch-shortening cycle and how it relates to lag: There are times when I'm using the rebound effect between full supination of the forearm and pronation: like allowing the forearm to twist open during the lag, and then letting in "untwist" or pronate, through contact. This can definitely add some zip to the ball, but it introduces the need to find perfect timing between that supination/pronation transition in order to get the face at the perfect angle. Again, similar in golf to letting the face open during the backswing and then needing to consciously close it through the forward swing. Requires great timing that can easily be thrown off.

One way to allow the arm to fully supinate before "un-twisting" through contact would be to use a more full western grip, where even if you pronate way late and after contact, your racquet face is still slightly closed, even in the fully supinated/open/underhand stone-skipping orientation. For me, this grip is to extreme, so finding ways to minimize supination has been more helpful.

there's definitely a timing component that needs to be learned with you start "lagging"... but rather than deliberately trying to lag, maybe just focus on a loose grip?
a drill i do sometimes is rallying with only 2 fingers on the fh... (mini first, then lightly from the baseline)
because you can't grip it hard, the racquet will naturally lag when you pull the racquet forward....
that's the way i was taught... but back then i don't think "lag and snap" was even a thing (at least not in my vocab, or of the folks teaching me)...

 

[Fintft]

something to consider...
there's at least a handful of folks at the 4.5 level i play with that have been trying to incorporate lag into their swing, with the intent of hitting "bigger"
they are control players with very good accuracy, but when playing bigger hitters, they just get hit off the court
one camp just stuck with no-lag, control play - and focus on consistency and weathering the big hitters but keeping them off balance
other camp fully committed to the lag swing - required quite a bit of training, but you can tell a difference in the power/spin they were generating
(third camp, does a flip simulating what the lag looks like, but to me looks more like a wta swing - which is fine, but they got there trying to do an atp style lag fh)

doing the flip lag thing... it is common for beginngers i teach to open their face... some ways to combat that
* put a tennis ball on their racquet in the "pat the dog" phase, and encourage them to keep it their as long as possible
* challenge them to hit with the top edge of the frame
* at the "pat the dog" phase, touch the ground behind them
* practice hitting the topspin pro (or net), dozens and dozens of times (keeping the bend in their wrist the entire time).. until it's learned
* slowly swinging, hold the tip of their racquet, so they can pull and feel where their hand should be (common issu is straightening their wrist which flisp the racquet open)
others?

And who has the upper hand? Or are you saying that the first two groups are equally succesfull?

 

[nyta2]

And who has the upper hand? Or are you saying that the first two groups are equally succesfull?

at the 4.5 to low 5.0 level both seem to be equally successful
but from observation it seems like by mid 5.0+ the lag style fh wins..
(but that could be just because recent ex college folks who typically play mid 5.0 only hit with lag style fh)
then again, mac seems to do just fine at the high levels .
my $0.02

 

[Fintft]

at the 4.5 to low 5.0 level both seem to be equally successful
but from observation it seems like by mid 5.0+ the lag style fh wins..
(but that could be just because recent ex college folks who typically play mid 5.0 only hit with lag style fh)
then again, mac seems to do just fine at the high levels .
my $0.02

5.0 FTW! lol in my dreams
As for Mac he is one in a generation kinda of talent and he didn't know better

 

[nyta2]

5.0 FTW! lol in my dreams
As for Mac he is one in a generation kinda of talent and he didn't know better

yeah but for most of us, his technique is more than enough for most of us to reach our 5.0 dream goals.

 

[J011yroger]

@op what does your coach say?

J

 

[rosheem]

@op what does your coach say?

J

He agrees that I have all the spin and power needed without the extra wrist action. We're focused a bit more on weight transfer right now, so purposely NOT discussing too much about the nuances of the wrist/hand. He doesn't see a huge difference at a macro level when I tighten up that lag, but he likes what he sees in terms of a cleaner ball coming off more consistently.

 

[srimes]

So much depends on timing and feel, I don't know how one can diagnose with this description.
If you're losing control of the racket face that will cause errors, obviously. But a lot of other things can happen too.

When does this error occur? When you try to hit harder? When you receive a harder shot? When rushed for time? On higher bouncing balls? Playing with old poly?

The non-analytical fix is to work on getting a feel for the shot and dial it in. You should be able make yourself miss high or low on demand. My first thought when hitting high is to focus on bringing the racket back higher and hit more through the ball. As you hit harder you have to do this anyway as you gravity doesn't have as much time to bring it down.

 

[rosheem]

So much depends on timing and feel, I don't know how one can diagnose with this description.
If you're losing control of the racket face that will cause errors, obviously. But a lot of other things can happen too.

When does this error occur? When you try to hit harder? When you receive a harder shot? When rushed for time? On higher bouncing balls? Playing with old poly?

The non-analytical fix is to work on getting a feel for the shot and dial it in. You should be able make yourself miss high or low on demand. My first thought when hitting high is to focus on bringing the racket back higher and hit more through the ball. As you hit harder you have to do this anyway as you gravity doesn't have as much time to bring it down.

Appreciate this and all the other comments.

Just to clarify, I'm not asking for a diagnosis. I've seen many of those technique-advice-seeking threads start and devolve quickly, especially without video.

I'm just sharing that I always had a suspicion that the way I lag my racquet creates a propensity to be a bit too open at contact. Cleaning up that aspect of the stroke and being a bit exaggerated about the adjustment seems to confirm it. I get a very heightened sense of trajectory control when I make that adjustment.

If anyone knows much about the golf swing...you can create a bunch of lag at the top of the swing simply by cupping the left wrist and "laying off" the club. The wrist just has a better range of motion in that configuration. But it's not necessarily the type of lag that contributes to leveraged contact with optimal acceleration. It's more of a false lag that adds variables that need to be corrected for in the downswing.

Similarly, I can create extra lag with the racquet on the forehand by supinating my forearm to the max. When you add to that a late acceleration burst into the ball, the window for getting the face into the perfect angle can be very short. I can make it work most of the time, but as I start looking to advance, I'm needing to clean up my technique so I can be more consistent. Nothing worse than being in the perfect position with the perfect target, and swinging on a path that is close to correct, but clearing the net by 8 feet instead of the planned 3 because the timing of the face rotation was just a bit off.

Enjoy the exchange and thoughts, thanks!

 

[srimes]

That make sense. I can definitely see how a too-wristy/slappy motion would get out of control. My stroke is abbreviated and I focus on hitting out in front/extending the arm. I don't "feel" lag/fip but I'm know it's there, just like on the serve I don't feel the racket drop, I just focus on throwing it "up." Use whatever mental cue works for you!

Funny, I picture the supination/pronation on the forehand as creating spin/windshield wiper motion, and I feel wrist extension as creating the lag. But I'm not trying to extend the wrist and create lag, I'm trying to swing the racket forward and given the balance/speed it just happens. Maybe by "trying" to create lag your losing too much tension (and thus control) and messing up the stretch-shortening cycle. Like with lifting weights you want to maintain tension/control during the extension cycle and let the weight pull itself down. You're not firing the opposing muscles to pull it down. My lag isn't like a deliberate takeback where I pull it back before pushing forward. Swinging my arm forward causes the lag because the racket starts out facing the "wrong" way.

I picture it like casting with a fishing rod. Loaded up the rod bends back as you swing the handle and the tip pulls the weight, smoothly and timed to release the energy at the end of the stroke. This is opposed to a bow and arrow or catapult, where steps are to 1 pull back, 2 aim, 3 release tension.

 

[rosheem]

If this works, this might give an idea of how the face can have a tendency to open during the lag/catch-up phase. In this clip, the lag/snap is just a bit exaggerated, as I was playing around with more of a federer-esque feel (at least how I interpret it) for the lag/contact.

 

[TnsGuru]

Consider the wrist assist.

PermaWrist Training aid.

 

[Curious]

Do you think it’s lag or the flip that causes the problem?
You know Halep has a huge lag but zero flip of the racket and her racket face angle doesn’t change suddenly violently at all.

 

[rosheem]

Do you think it’s lag or the flip that causes the problem?
You know Halep has a huge lag but zero flip of the racket and her racket face angle doesn’t change suddenly violently at all.

At one point, I tried going a bit more towards Western on my grip so that my racquet face angle didn't even have the chance to get "too open". The western grip keeps the face closed enough even with the forearm was maximally supinated. I figured this would eliminate the need for pronation and cause fewer timing errors. Similar to strengthening the grip in the golf swing. It was too hard, and I was too far down the path towards my current grip, so I didn't make the change and wouldn't want to anymore.

Allowing lag to happen while resisting my arms tendency to want to fully supinate seems to be what is working. I'll keep grooving it...the nice thing is that it doesn't require an entire structural or timing overhaul. A simple mental image does the trick. For me, that image is of getting the racquet very close to the ball before initiating the acceleration, and also leading into contact with the meaty part of my thumb, with the palm still down, instead of ever letting the palm flip up and leading with the meaty part of the hand on the pinky side.

The not-so-nice thing is that it has become grooved that when I swing with a very loose grip and wrist, the natural arm motion in response to my transition from backswing to forward swing is to just flip open into full supination. And in the forward swing, I have naturally grooved in the pronation so that on most balls, the trajectory is what I intended. So I'll have to remove some natural motion and countermotion, which may tighten up my swing for a while before I can get it grooved to where I can be very loose again.

 

[Curious]

At one point, I tried going a bit more towards Western on my grip so that my racquet face angle didn't even have the chance to get "too open". The western grip keeps the face closed enough even with the forearm was maximally supinated. I figured this would eliminate the need for pronation and cause fewer timing errors. Similar to strengthening the grip in the golf swing. It was too hard, and I was too far down the path towards my current grip, so I didn't make the change and wouldn't want to anymore.

Allowing lag to happen while resisting my arms tendency to want to fully supinate seems to be what is working. I'll keep grooving it...the nice thing is that it doesn't require an entire structural or timing overhaul. A simple mental image does the trick. For me, that image is of getting the racquet very close to the ball before initiating the acceleration, and also leading into contact with the meaty part of my thumb, with the palm still down, instead of ever letting the palm flip up and leading with the meaty part of the hand on the pinky side.

The not-so-nice thing is that it has become grooved that when I swing with a very loose grip and wrist, the natural arm motion in response to my transition from backswing to forward swing is to just flip open into full supination. And in the forward swing, I have naturally grooved in the pronation so that on most balls, the trajectory is what I intended. So I'll have to remove some natural motion and countermotion, which may tighten up my swing for a while before I can get it grooved to where I can be very loose again.

Yup. Don’t know who else can empathise with you more than I do!
I’ve struggled with the exact same thing for years, my forearm wanting to supinate so much and as a result opening the bloody racket face up too much at contact.

 

[nyta2]

Yup. Don’t know who else can empathise with you more than I do!
I’ve struggled with the exact same thing for years, my forearm wanting to supinate so much and as a result opening the bloody racket face up too much at contact.

what worked for you to fix/correct it?

 

[Curious]

what worked for you to fix/correct it?

Not fixed yet. My forearm goes automatically to a supinated position at the end of take back, no matter what I do.

 

[Fintft]

Not fixed yet. My forearm goes automatically to a supinated position at the end of take back, no matter what I do.

Do you start moving the hips first/pushing on the back leg, as you drop the racquet (from the takeback position)?

 

[Curious]

Do you start moving the hips first/pushing on the back leg, as you drop the racquet (from the takeback position)?

I think so.