Martina Navratilova says Wimbledon is “very slow”
- Thread starter fedfan08
- Start date
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
I do indeed dislike Nadal as much as you dislike Federer and Djokovic. However, my analysis is both right and fair on this point. Yes, if you want to call Federer a grass/hard courter, you may. There is truth to it. However, all that I was saying is that the gap between Nadal's first and second surfaces is larger than for Federer or Djokovic. For them, the gap between their second and third surfaces is larger. Nadal is better on clay than they are on grass or hard. No doubt about that. As I said, a clay courter isn't someone who is only good on clay. It's someone who is much better on clay than on other surfaces. Thus, Nadal is a clay courter. Sorry if that offends you.
If we rank them by surface, it goes:
1. Nadal on clay
2. Federer on grass
3. Djokovic on hard
4. Federer on hard
5. Djokovic on grass
6. Nadal on hard
7. Nadal on grass
8. Djokovic on clay
9. Federer on clay
Nothing in your post offended me, and I don't know why you thought it would. The part about lumping two hard court Slams together is biased, but it doesn't offend me if you offer a biased argument.
If we rank them by surface, it goes:
1. Nadal on clay
2. Federer on grass
3. Djokovic on hard
4. Federer on hard
5. Djokovic on grass
6. Nadal on hard
7. Nadal on grass
8. Djokovic on clay
9. Federer on clay
Nothing in your post offended me, and I don't know why you thought it would. The part about lumping two hard court Slams together is biased, but it doesn't offend me if you offer a biased argument.
Last edited:
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Oh boy another thread about the Wimbledon courts!
I CAN'T GET ENOUGH!
I CAN'T GET ENOUGH!
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
At the most, I see four clay courters and that's if I include Nadal which would be a bit like counting Borg as a clay courter. Four in the last 16. That's not "so many". Courts are slow but the bounce is NOT high. Which seems to have flummoxed most of the servebots with only Querrey left. Which is probably what Wimbledon wanted after last year's semi.Maybe it’s not intentional but the organizers should do whatever they can to keep Wimbledon fast. We already have two slow slams (and I would argue AO is medium not fast) we don’t need a third.
D
Deleted member 293577
Guest
And not only has Navratilova commentated this year’s tournament, she has also played on it, pairing with Cara Black in the invitational doubles. That, along with her combined 20 Wimbledon titles, qualifies her as a bonafide professional GRASS EXPERT. The grass is slow this year, accept it already.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Hahaha what a childish answer. "Your argument is biased my answer is correct". Only because you repeat that in all your comments it doesn't become true. Nice to see that you admit your dislike for Nadal.
I don't dislike Federer or Djokovic. I am exposing your flawed logic. Following your logic, Federer would not be an all-around palyer. Following your reasoning, Federer is a hard-grass courter, because he is much better on hard and grass than on clay. You say that Nadal is a clay courter simply because he is much better on clay than on grass and hard, but ignoring that he is the only member of the Big 3 with multiple Slams on all surfaces.
Following the real logic, Federer is an all-around player who also happens to be a grass specialist (in the sense that grass is his best surface), Djokovic is an all-around player who also happens to be a hard court specialist (in the sense that hard is his best surface), and Nadal is an all-around player who also happens to be a clay specialist (in the sense that clay is his best surface).
No, Nadal is not merely "a clay courter". No player with a Career Grand Slam is. Stop hating on the man.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
I agree. The grass is slow this year. But not because Navratilova says so. To suggest that something is true merely because an expert says so is a logical fallacy (wrong argument) known as argument of authority. Experts also fail sometimes, as historically has been proved many times. Experts must prove their claims with data like anyone else.
We know grass is slow this year because of the speed index data, which indicate that this is the second slowest Wimbledon ever after Wimbledon 2017.
The Shape-shifter
Rookie
It depends on the servebots themselves. For example, post-2016 Raonic would actually prefer faster, lower-bouncing grass, like in Stuttgart for example, or in Wimbledon 2016. OTOH, Isner prefers high-bouncing grass.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Only relying on one expert would be an issue, but there is a clear trend in expert opinion. And it's a bit hard not to rely on opinion when factual information is commercial-in-confidence.
And moreover there are many notorious cases of expert opinion sending people to their deaths or life imprisonment and yet courts have no alternative but to accept and to weigh expert evidence.
And moreover there are many notorious cases of expert opinion sending people to their deaths or life imprisonment and yet courts have no alternative but to accept and to weigh expert evidence.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I
It could be an all Spanish final this year!Wait until you see an all-Spanish semifinal line-up in 2020...
With Feliciano not being one of them.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
How about what Fed said yesterday after the Berrettini match and nobody's posting this:
"The guy is serving on average 130 miles and second serve 105 or 110. He gets three aces. It’s just slow. Especially tonight, conditions are a bit cooler. I just felt like, you know, it’s not really going through. If you’re almost clocking 140 (mph) serves, you should be rewarded a little bit more probably. There is definitely an issue with the speed of the balls or the speed of the courts. I think if it would have been faster, then again we would have seen the match that I was expecting with few chances here and there. I was just able to maybe outmanoeuvre him with my slice. He couldn’t hurt me enough with his forehand, which I thought was going to be maybe tough to manage today.”
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/wimbledon-roger-federer-rafael-nadal-slow-surface-104033824.html
"The guy is serving on average 130 miles and second serve 105 or 110. He gets three aces. It’s just slow. Especially tonight, conditions are a bit cooler. I just felt like, you know, it’s not really going through. If you’re almost clocking 140 (mph) serves, you should be rewarded a little bit more probably. There is definitely an issue with the speed of the balls or the speed of the courts. I think if it would have been faster, then again we would have seen the match that I was expecting with few chances here and there. I was just able to maybe outmanoeuvre him with my slice. He couldn’t hurt me enough with his forehand, which I thought was going to be maybe tough to manage today.”
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/wimbledon-roger-federer-rafael-nadal-slow-surface-104033824.html
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Low bounce probably nixed both Isner and Anderson's chances. Kick serve becomes useless.
victorcruz
Hall of Fame
I love having the same threads recycled over and over. Kinda like hollywood is making remakes, this forum has repost after repost.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
While Fed's summation is accurate (duh!), Raonic faced the same problem against Murray in the 2016 final. 147 mph serves were being returned deep. I mean, who's to say how far Berrettini could have gone if he hadn't had to play any of the Big Three in R16. Why is everyone talking about this like it's something new? Didn't Fed straight set Roddick back in 2005? Every year, we have this discussion during Wimbledon and it seems to me as if people are simply wishing Wimbledon would go back to pre 2001 days. That's not gonna happen.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
People keep repeating most of their behaviours. The question is when does it become pathological? For Hollywood the rule is clear: Does it make money? They rarely repeat something that doesn't make money.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Pella is a clay court player. Before competing in Wimbledon, his only experiences with grass consisted in mowing his backyard lawn.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Yes, and the threads need to be slowed down.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Most people just want to make sure Federer wins Wimbledon. Everything else is irrelevant.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
We only need to just mention Serena for those purposes.
beard
Legend
Yes, grass is slow this year... Accept it already, Fed fans, stop complaining and making new threads about that subject... Accept already that grass will never be fast as it used to be...
****n accept it and move on...
... Ps, I know you won't...
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
OK, but have you seen how terribly slow are Wimbledon courts this year?Yes, grass is slow this year... Accept it already, Fed fans, stop complaining and making new threads about that subject... Accept already that grass will never be fast as it used to be...
****n accept it and move on...
Ps, I know you won't...
beard
Legend
Yes, they are slow, now accept it as a man, move on... watch tennis as it is, or don't watch if you don't like... Just accept it...
D
Deleted member 293577
Guest
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
If I were a woman, would you accept my not accepting it?
beard
Legend
If you are a woman, accept it as a woman, and move on...
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
OK, no more questions. Thanks for your time.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Nothing childish about my answer at all. It clearly irritates you that I don't like Nadal, but I'm not going to change my taste to suit you.
Anyway, as I said, I agree that Federer can be called a hard-grass courter if you wish. Nonetheless, as I've said many times, it is indisputable that the gap between favorite and second-favorite surface is significantly greater for Nadal than it is for either Federer or Djokovic. Here are two big pieces of evidence to support that claim:
1. Grand Slam titles: a. Nadal: 12 on clay, 4 on hard courts (with two Slams played on hard courts). b. Federer: 8 on grass, 11 on hard courts (with two Slams played on hard courts, hence it's in second). c. Djokovic: 10 on hard courts, 4 on grass (with one Slam played on grass). Put differently, the ratio of Slams per surface per number of events played between first and second favorite surface is: Nadal 6-1 (12 per event on clay, two per event on hard/grass), Federer 1.45-1 (eight per event on grass, 5.5 per event on hard), Djokovic 5-4 (five per event on hard courts, four per event on grass).
2. Winning percentage by surface: a. Nadal: clay: 92%, grass: 78%, b. Federer: grass: 87%; hard: 84%, c. Djokovic: hard: 84%, grass: 83%.
Where your argument for Nadal does have merit, as I have acknowledged repeatedly, is that for Nadal the gap between second and third-favorite surface is small - he is roughly equal on hard courts and grass, whereas for Djokovic and Federer it is much greater. So, for the sake of fairness, to take the two data points I just used and measure between second and third surface, we get:
1. Grand Slam titles: a. Nadal: 4 on hard courts (with two Slams played on hard courts), 2 on grass. b. Federer: 11 on hard courts (with two Slams played on hard courts), 1 on clay. c. Djokovic: 4 on grass, 1 on clay. Ratio: Nadal: 1-1, Federer 5.5-1, Djokovic: 4-1.
2. Winning percentage by surface: a. Nadal: grass: 78%, hard: 77%, b. Federer: hard: 84%, clay: 76%, c. Djokovic: grass: 83%, clay: 80%.
The productive conversation comes not in denying that, for Nadal the gap between favorite and second favorite is far greater than it is for Federer or Djokovic, but in discussing whether versatility is better measured by whether one's second surface is fairly close to one's favorite surface or by whether one's third surface is fairly close to one's second surface. If we judge by the former metric, then Djokovic and Federer are more versatile than Nadal. If we judge by the second metric, then Nadal is more versatile than either Djokovic or Federer. That certainly is something that can be argued either way, and my own view is that it's something of a wash (i.e. there's not much difference). So in that sense I do indeed agree with you that all are roughly as versatile as each other, in slightly different ways. And that they are all roughly as good as each other overall.
Luka888
Professional
You do have a very good point. I'm getting tired of all of GOAT threads. Yes, Fed, Novak, and Rafa are great but it's too much. It's always something about them. What they say, what they do. People are getting obsessed.
I tried opening some threads about lower-ranked players but nobody really cares.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
The difference is that Fed's played all those big hitters in recent years and never complained this much about it. He's played Milos, Anderson, Cilic, Berdych, etc. He knows how hard it should be to return those kinds of serves and Monday was too easy.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Not as many servebots in R4 as expected ?
.
This is a Claybot. Its joints have been ruined by clay, so now he is competing on grass and it works well - only one Servebot left.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Might that not have something to do with Berrettini's inexperience perhaps leading him to telegraph his serves? Fed himself has been able to serve himself out of trouble again and again through this tournament. I don't deny that the courts are slow. But aren't they slow like every year for the last ten years at least?
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
Maybe it’s not intentional but the organizers should do whatever they can to keep Wimbledon fast. We already have two slow slams (and I would argue AO is medium not fast) we don’t need a third.
I thought US open courts were pretty fast for Deco turf ? they can make that surface pretty fast. and US open is one of the hard courts that is on the fast side
Gary Duane
G.O.A.T.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
You mean Roger Sterling, right?
He still knows the dress code at the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
And you don't think Roger can tell the difference after all these years. If he was picking up on a tell, why would he go out of his way to blame the court (something he already did with the first 3 opponents who weren't big servers).
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I don't know whether the effect is because of the grass warm-ups being faster or the practice courts playing differently from CC /Court 1 is my point. Or if the effect is simply the difference from last year. Is it different from last year? Absolutely. Different from 2017? I am not convinced. And I am not convinced Fed would try to remember 2017 and compare with that. At the most, he has last year in mind when the bounce was higher, making servebots more dangerous.
fedfan08
Professional
US Open is not on the fast side. They’ve been slowing it down ever since 2001.
fedfan08
Professional
If these courts were lightning fast would Nadal and Djokovic fans be saying accept it and get on with it. No it would be just like the special seeding, though I wonder what ESPN clowns would say. I’m sure they would be torn as they would like to see faster grass but also want a Nadal/Djokovic final.
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
oh didn't know that. I guess fast surface 1 to 2 punch tennis is boring, they want to see more 10-12 shot rallies I guess...... but you can make the Decoturf very fast if you want to. Local club around me put in a brand new Decoturf and they made it very very fast....LOL. Not sure why ? If you have big Flat serve, it is heaven..
fedfan08
Professional
Here’s center court circa 1991 final.
Notice how the entire court is worn down but the baseline isn’t as chewed up as it is now. Court 1 baseline is even more chewed up. That’s all I need to know that the courts are slower. Everyone grinds from the baseline now, and it’s easier to because the bounces are more predictable. Nobody has to be good at net when they can be ball machines from the baseline. This isn’t grass court tennis. Wimbledon might as well be a hard court.
Notice how the entire court is worn down but the baseline isn’t as chewed up as it is now. Court 1 baseline is even more chewed up. That’s all I need to know that the courts are slower. Everyone grinds from the baseline now, and it’s easier to because the bounces are more predictable. Nobody has to be good at net when they can be ball machines from the baseline. This isn’t grass court tennis. Wimbledon might as well be a hard court.
sredna42
Hall of Fame
Any true fan of tennis should be disturbed by
Andy Murray in full flightNot as many servebots in R4 as expected ?
.
Similar threads
- Deleted member 688153
- General Pro Player Discussion
