Mixed doubles ladies complaining about ball being hit near them

[winchestervatennis]

Whoa. There's a lot here to unpack.

I don't have a lot of time, so just a few things.



Let's talk about the so-called laziness issue. I am stunned that anyone would consider any elite female athlete who has risen to be one of the best players on the planet to be lazy. Sure, Bernard Tomick and Kyrios are straight-up lazy, but . . . **they're not women, are they?**

I do not think top WTA players are out of shape or fat. I admit that I don't know much about unseeded players -- they come and go in the early rounds when I'm not looking. But come on. Here's a list of the top WTA players:

Halep
Woz
Muguruza
Zvitolina
Pliskova
Ostapenko
Garcia
Williams
Kvitova
Kerber
Conta
Georges
Stephens
Keys
Mlednovic
Kuznetsova
Kasatina
Sevastova

Note that Serena, Maria, Azarenka, Stosur are not even on this list. Now, how can you say any of these women is overweight or out of shape? Should I keep going? 'Cause I scanned the top 100, and I didn't recognize every name but the only one who I would say could maybe stand to lose a few pounds is Kaia Kanepi at 59. But hasn't she had health problems? And maybe Kvitova is heavy, but you know, she got *stabbed* not so long ago.

As far as the idea that the women need to learn to serve to the BH . . . . I'm not following you. Do you really think female pros step up to the line and don't bother to place it? Maybe they don't serve to the BH because the BH is the stronger wing of their opponent? Or maybe they want the return coming back to their FH?

Yes, there is a strength element to serving, and men are stronger and usually serve harder/heavier. Women have different attributes, so they play differently. The variety makes for way more interesting events than if everyone were the same and played the same. I say nobody is doing it "the wrong way." They're all right in their own way.

Wasn't kvitova stabbed in the hand(s)? Does that really affect her ability to stay, or get into shape? Del Potro has had wrist injuries and manages to stay in shape.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Well, sort of. Sometimes it means they can't beat people who don't miss.

But it also means sometimes their technique is poor, and the slow pace exposes this. You can't just block back a soft shot.

And most the players I know who complain about soft shots and lob queens don't have the transition game to take those balls out of the air. So they wind up playing lob ball fetch for two hours. Painful.

 

[J011yroger]

Well, sort of. Sometimes it means they can't beat people who don't miss.

But it also means sometimes their technique is poor, and the slow pace exposes this. You can't just block back a soft shot.

And most the players I know who complain about soft shots and lob queens don't have the transition game to take those balls out of the air. So they wind up playing lob ball fetch for two hours. Painful.

True, if their opponents hit harder with the same consistency they would lose faster.

J

 

[OnTheLine]

Well, sort of. Sometimes it means they can't beat people who don't miss.

But it also means sometimes their technique is poor, and the slow pace exposes this. You can't just block back a soft shot.

And most the players I know who complain about soft shots and lob queens don't have the transition game to take those balls out of the air. So they wind up playing lob ball fetch for two hours. Painful.

Yeah, not my issue here ... it just isn't fun. I will take nearly the entire match in the air faced with this style simply to redeem something from it.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Exactly. It is important to learn to play against pushers, soft hitters, lobbers. If you aren't willing, then you can't learn and will be forever at their mercy.

Playing those ladies is essential to learn to generate your own pace and hit those high, crossing approach volleys. It is very good for developing variety.

I used to lose to those sorts of players often many years ago -- they make you look like a clown out there. I'll be interested to see if my skills have improved.

What is a high crossing approach volley?

If I’m coming in against a lobber, would it not be an overhead I’m hitting at the service line?

In my world, any “high volley” gets nailed at someone’s feet. Low volleys get hit as deep approaches. But maybe I’m imagining something different.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

What is a high crossing approach volley?

If I’m coming in against a lobber, would it not be an overhead I’m hitting at the service line?

In my world, any “high volley” gets nailed at someone’s feet. Low volleys get hit as deep approaches. But maybe I’m imagining something different.

It depends on how good I am at high volleys, especially high BH volleys. If I'm not good enough, hitting to the net man might be a mistake.

 

[Cindysphinx]

What is a high crossing approach volley?

If I’m coming in against a lobber, would it not be an overhead I’m hitting at the service line?

In my world, any “high volley” gets nailed at someone’s feet. Low volleys get hit as deep approaches. But maybe I’m imagining something different.

If I am at baseline and opponent hits me a lob, I am not going to overhead that ball unless it is very, very high. And if it is very high, I would bounce it and overhead it off the bounce.

More typical, I think, is the opponent's lob would bounce in no man's land. Many people bounce those and run way back to the curtain to play a drive because they are either too low for an overhead or they do not feel comfortable trying to hit an overhead while running forward. The easier shot for those shoulder-high balls is either a swing volley or an approach volley, IME.

Anyway, when I say "high crossing volley," I mean my net partner did not overhead that ball, and I was either at the baseline or in a staggered formation at net. If the trajectory on that ball is low-ish, I will take it as a high approach volley, crossing behind my partner to reach it, likely playing my volley up the line, and approaching behind it.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Yeah, not my issue here ... it just isn't fun. I will take nearly the entire match in the air faced with this style simply to redeem something from it.

I'll let you know what it is like.

I'm expecting these opponents to be experienced and crafty. It could get rough out there.

 

[Dartagnan64]

If I am at baseline and opponent hits me a lob, I am not going to overhead that ball unless it is very, very high. And if it is very high, I would bounce it and overhead it off the bounce.

More typical, I think, is the opponent's lob would bounce in no man's land. Many people bounce those and run way back to the curtain to play a drive because they are either too low for an overhead or they do not feel comfortable trying to hit an overhead while running forward. The easier shot for those shoulder-high balls is either a swing volley or an approach volley, IME.

Anyway, when I say "high crossing volley," I mean my net partner did not overhead that ball, and I was either at the baseline or in a staggered formation at net. If the trajectory on that ball is low-ish, I will take it as a high approach volley, crossing behind my partner to reach it, likely playing my volley up the line, and approaching behind it.

OK I'm seeing it now I think. If we are talking a lob return over the net man then, yes, you are unlikely to be able to hit an overhead and will need to switch positions and then come in. Presumably you would hit that volley DTL at the returner and come in while your partner crosses and takes up the deep CC position.

 

[OnTheLine]

Played my 2nd league mixed match today. Against a pair of 4.0s.
Serve from guy: Couldn't return it.
His first service game consisted of 4 aces.
His second service game ... I got a racquet on two ... one shanked lord knows where, other popped up perfectly to his partner for an easy overhead
Partner got a racquet on one

Second set: I got to see his 2nd serves (praise be!) a kicking fast serve wide to my forehand ... returnable
We broke his serve both times in second set as his 1st serve was no longer finding the service box.

After match chatting ... guy was a pitcher on his HS baseball team ... no surprise, that was a really fine serve.

The rest of the match was just odd. The win was an entirely too easy 6-2; 6-1 but it didn't have a normal match flow ... lots of what looked like should have been straight forward CC groundstrokes from opponents instead returned to the middle that were too easy to poach for volley winners. Never felt under pressure by them ... odd experience.

Additionally, opponents had woman serve first which made no sense, and she played Ad court yet did not try to poach and easy to get poor returns off her BH.

Someone mentioned that women should not expect to hold their serve in mixed. I have not yet found that ... held all but one in my first match, held all my serves in todays match ... partner did good job poaching off weak ROS (and vice versa)

 

[winchestervatennis]

OK I'm seeing it now I think. If we are talking a lob return over the net man then, yes, you are unlikely to be able to hit an overhead and will need to switch positions and then come in. Presumably you would hit that volley DTL at the returner and come in while your partner crosses and takes up the deep CC position.

Why would the partner move back?

 

[Dartagnan64]

Why would the partner move back?

In California doubles the players at net are staggered with the Cross court player taking a deeper position to protect against lobs. This works well in seniors and women’s doubles due to lack of height and speed. If you are a pair of 20 something 6’3” monsters, feel free to both get into the net.

Draw them in and lob them is a fairly common tactic and the staggered formation protects from that while still being strong offensively.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Someone mentioned that women should not expect to hold their serve in mixed. I have not yet found that ... held all but one in my first match, held all my serves in todays match ... partner did good job poac

You have, by your own admission, a solid woman’s serve. That is a rarity. Too many women serve right to the wheelhouse of the returner all the while standing in the doubles alley so they don’t get scorched by the inevitable hard cc return. Then when the guy gets frustrated and poaches, the returner has an easy DTL usually. Drives me nuts. Serve down the middle and give the man something to work with as far as angles are concerned.

 

[OnTheLine]

You have, by your own admission, a solid woman’s serve. That is a rarity. Too many women serve right to the wheelhouse of the returner all the while standing in the doubles alley so they don’t get scorched by the inevitable hard cc return. Then when the guy gets frustrated and poaches, the returner has an easy DTL usually. Drives me nuts. Serve down the middle and give the man something to work with as far as angles are concerned.

Yeah, but the best female serves, (and mine is not the best, it is better than adequate) should not trouble male returners right?

Today my serve was really off. Could not hit my T serve from the deuce side ... so went with my slice to the body when serving to the guy .. and he never adapted. Served to female's BH until she adapted then went down the T. Got nothing but weak or netted returns ... I am not complaining, just baffled.

I also serve from about the midway spot between center hash and singles line, which I am sure is wrong, but hasn't hurt me (yet)

 

[Cindysphinx]

Played my 2nd league mixed match today. Against a pair of 4.0s.
Serve from guy: Couldn't return it.
His first service game consisted of 4 aces.
His second service game ... I got a racquet on two ... one shanked lord knows where, other popped up perfectly to his partner for an easy overhead
Partner got a racquet on one

Second set: I got to see his 2nd serves (praise be!) a kicking fast serve wide to my forehand ... returnable
We broke his serve both times in second set as his 1st serve was no longer finding the service box.

After match chatting ... guy was a pitcher on his HS baseball team ... no surprise, that was a really fine serve.

The rest of the match was just odd. The win was an entirely too easy 6-2; 6-1 but it didn't have a normal match flow ... lots of what looked like should have been straight forward CC groundstrokes from opponents instead returned to the middle that were too easy to poach for volley winners. Never felt under pressure by them ... odd experience.

Additionally, opponents had woman serve first which made no sense, and she played Ad court yet did not try to poach and easy to get poor returns off her BH.

Someone mentioned that women should not expect to hold their serve in mixed. I have not yet found that ... held all but one in my first match, held all my serves in todays match ... partner did good job poaching off weak ROS (and vice versa)

Follow-up questions:

What level was your partner?

How was the opposing man's second serve -- slice, kick, push, something else?

How was opposing man at net? (I know a 4.0 man/3.5 woman where she serves first and they win a lot. He smothers the net, she serves up the middle. It is very hard to get the ball past him.)

 

[OnTheLine]

Follow-up questions:

What level was your partner?

How was the opposing man's second serve -- slice, kick, push, something else?

How was opposing man at net? (I know a 4.0 man/3.5 woman where she serves first and they win a lot. He smothers the net, she serves up the middle. It is very hard to get the ball past him.)

We were at a disadvantage on paper: my partner a 3.5. (Scheduling problems)

2nd serve varied from a nice looking slice that kicked...right to my forehand but high ... but by the end of the match it was an easy push.

Opposing man was terrible at the net ... I mean terrible. When he did get a volley he sent it right to the baseline player. I wonder if he only plays singles but haven't bothered looking at record.

 

[winchestervatennis]

In California doubles the players at net are staggered with the Cross court player taking a deeper position to protect against lobs. This works well in seniors and women’s doubles due to lack of height and speed. If you are a pair of 20 something 6’3” monsters, feel free to both get into the net.

Draw them in and lob them is a fairly common tactic and the staggered formation protects from that while still being strong offensively.

I see. I read deep cc position to mean that net person moves back to the baseline... which is crazy.

I would still think that staggered position leaves you opponent the ability to dip one at the deeper player's feet, but perhaps at some level the lob is a higher percentage shot for the opponent to hit than the cc dipper. At my level, drawing the opponents to the net is exactly what they want and would be a losing strategy more often than not.

 

[J011yroger]

I see. I read deep cc position to mean that net person moves back to the baseline... which is crazy.

I would still think that staggered position leaves you opponent the ability to dip one at the deeper player's feet, but perhaps at some level the lob is a higher percentage shot for the opponent to hit than the cc dipper. At my level, drawing the opponents to the net is exactly what they want and would be a losing strategy more often than not.

Read the art of doubles.

Even if you don't buy into it 100% it will make you think.

J

 

[winchestervatennis]

Read the art of doubles.

Even if you don't buy into it 100% it will make you think.

J

Authored by J

 

[Dartagnan64]

I see. I read deep cc position to mean that net person moves back to the baseline... which is crazy.

I would still think that staggered position leaves you opponent the ability to dip one at the deeper player's feet, but perhaps at some level the lob is a higher percentage shot for the opponent to hit than the cc dipper. At my level, drawing the opponents to the net is exactly what they want and would be a losing strategy more often than not.

If you're partner has hit a good approach volley, a CC dipper is the least of your concerns. More likely to face a dug up lob over the volleyers head.

Some crafty doubles players are excellent lobbers. If you are not tall or fast, they will beat you if you get too far into the net. If you are tall and fast, then the world's your oyster. Position wherever you like. I'm at the age where I've clearly lost more than a step and have to be a bit smarter about my positioning.

And you are right about facing shots that dip at your feet if you are the deeper CC player. That is where having a good half volley in your bag is important. Probably the most under-rated but important shot in doubles. It's your key to the transition game.

 

[J011yroger]

If you're partner has hit a good approach volley, a CC dipper is the least of your concerns. More likely to face a dug up lob over the volleyers head.

Some crafty doubles players are excellent lobbers. If you are not tall or fast, they will beat you if you get too far into the net. If you are tall and fast, then the world's your oyster. Position wherever you like. I'm at the age where I've clearly lost more than a step and have to be a bit smarter about my positioning.

And you are right about facing shots that dip at your feet if you are the deeper CC player. That is where having a good half volley in your bag is important. Probably the most under-rated but important shot in doubles. It's your key to the transition game.

I'm tall and fast. Still have my moments.

J

 

[J011yroger]

Authored by J

It's written by a woman, so for a misogynist like me to give it props it has to be really good!

J

 

[Dartagnan64]

Read the art of doubles.

Even if you don't buy into it 100% it will make you think.

J

Very good book for 3.5-4.5 level doubles IMO. Probably chapter 3 and 7 are the best. Most important message is how to effectively get out of the 1 up 1 back mentality. I used to understand that 2 up was a stronger position offensively but I never really understood how to transition and where to set up in that formation. There is very good advice about proper positioning, key roles of each person on the court and where to put your shots. While it's a bit long in the tooth, it still works at levels where folks aren't just screaming serves and returns at each other all match.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Yeah, but the best female serves, (and mine is not the best, it is better than adequate) should not trouble male returners right?

I don't know about that. I've been flummoxed by some women that hit a pretty low skidding flat serve that's hard to do anything with other than slice or lob. Have to really make clean contact then or else you pop up a sitter and it's game over.

And the next time i see a woman hit an actual slice serve with pace will be the second time (the first was a 5.0 woman). So the fact that you are a 3.5 woman with a slice serve would put you in the upper echelon of female servers for your level.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Yeah, if he was bad at net, their idea to have her serve first makes no sense.

Then again, I have a male mixed partner (3.5) who seems reluctant to serve first. His serve is good when it is good, but it can go off for an entire set. But I think my volleys are better, so I make him serve first anyway.

Boy, if you are both 3.5s and you smoked two genuine 4.0s, that is a really good result!

 

[Cindysphinx]

If you're partner has hit a good approach volley, a CC dipper is the least of your concerns. More likely to face a dug up lob over the volleyers head.

Some crafty doubles players are excellent lobbers. If you are not tall or fast, they will beat you if you get too far into the net. If you are tall and fast, then the world's your oyster. Position wherever you like. I'm at the age where I've clearly lost more than a step and have to be a bit smarter about my positioning.

And you are right about facing shots that dip at your feet if you are the deeper CC player. That is where having a good half volley in your bag is important. Probably the most under-rated but important shot in doubles. It's your key to the transition game.

In ladies 3.0-4.0 play, you have to defend against the lob because that is the go-to shot.

For guys, they are less likely to lob and more likely to go for the dipping Xcourt pass.

In a way, it often just comes down to the depth of the approach. If the approach is deep, the angle is less available so players are more likely to lob. If the approach is short, the angle is easier and the lob is tougher.

Now if I could just put that knowledge into practice rather than standing there looking surprised every time . . .

 

[kylebarendrick]

Yeah, but the best female serves, (and mine is not the best, it is better than adequate) should not trouble male returners right?

Today my serve was really off. Could not hit my T serve from the deuce side ... so went with my slice to the body when serving to the guy .. and he never adapted. Served to female's BH until she adapted then went down the T. Got nothing but weak or netted returns ... I am not complaining, just baffled.

I also serve from about the midway spot between center hash and singles line, which I am sure is wrong, but hasn't hurt me (yet)

As a guy that plays 7.0 and 8.0 mixed (currently as a 3.5), I can say that I'd generally to better returning a 4.0 man's serve than a 3.5 woman's. I'm tall and strong serves tend to bounce higher into my strike zone. A lot of women serve soft, short, and often with backspin leaving the ball low. This forces me to return closer to the net than I'd like making it harder to get my return down into the court, unless I take a lot off of it. I usually adjust after the first few games, almost always by the second set but I do have to really concentrate returning women's serves.

At the same time, my serve gets me lots of free points from women in the first set. Not so much in the second set as the adjust.

I tend to serve near that midpoint in doubles as well. It makes it easier to support called poaches without giving the play away and I can consistently serve from the same spot all the time.

 

[Dartagnan64]

In a way, it often just comes down to the depth of the approach. If the approach is deep, the angle is less available so players are more likely to lob. If the approach is short, the angle is easier and the lob is tougher.

Spoken like someone that has actually read the Art of Doubles. The author harps on avoiding the deep approach shot especially when playing lobbers. Hit short and angled to get them out of their timing window and make them move.

I worked on that last night in men's doubles night and it was very effective. Most guys tried to hit something CC but I was up at the service line and was able to take a lot of those shots as volleys down a dramatically open middle.

 

[Powderwombat]

Wtf happened to my thread

 

[Dartagnan64]

Just found out its not just ladies that complain. Was playing men's doubles the other night and my partner got a juicy sitter that he hit down at the net guy's feet. Bounced about 2 feet from his feet. Pretty hard ball but no where near the guys head. Anyway, the opponent lost it at my partner for hitting near him saying "He didn't have to hit is so close."

It was very strange. I suspect this guy plays more singles than doubles, since my partner absolutely hit the ball exactly where he should have and certainly not as hard as he could have. We all kind of shrugged as we've all faced more dangerous situations. In fact last week I got nailed in the throat by a poacher on the first point of play. It happens from time to time. Still had far worse injuries in football, skiing and hockey. It's a fuzzy yellow ball, not a hockey puck.

 

[sphinx780]

Just found out its not just ladies that complain. Was playing men's doubles the other night and my partner got a juicy sitter that he hit down at the net guy's feet. Bounced about 2 feet from his feet. Pretty hard ball but no where near the guys head. Anyway, the opponent lost it at my partner for hitting near him saying "He didn't have to hit is so close."

It was very strange. I suspect this guy plays more singles than doubles, since my partner absolutely hit the ball exactly where he should have and certainly not as hard as he could have. We all kind of shrugged as we've all faced more dangerous situations. In fact last week I got nailed in the throat by a poacher on the first point of play. It happens from time to time. Still had far worse injuries in football, skiing and hockey. It's a fuzzy yellow ball, not a hockey puck.

I remember seeing a few guys get their dander up in 4.0 now and again. Can't say my experience has been the same in 4.5, but I'm sure there's always someone complaining over little things that shouldn't be an issue. I find it funny when the opponent apologizes. I usually respond with something like 'No need that was the right play'

 

[J011yroger]

I remember seeing a few guys get their dander up in 4.0 now and again. Can't say my experience has been the same in 4.5, but I'm sure there's always someone complaining over little things that shouldn't be an issue. I find it funny when the opponent apologizes. I usually respond with something like 'No need that was the right play'

There are meows at every level.

J

 

[Powderwombat]

bump

 

[Traffic]

All this discussion has me wondering about what my experience will be at 6.0 mixed. Hard hitting 3.0M with no control and 3.0F at the net that doesn't want to be there? Practice starts this Saturday. We shall see...

I've also been invited to a 7.0 mixed. The captain is a 4.0F that is recovering from arm issues and doesn't expect to play frequently. She needs a 3.0 partner with a good attitude that is ready to be bumped up any time to be her partner.

 

[J011yroger]

All this discussion has me wondering about what my experience will be at 6.0 mixed. Hard hitting 3.0M with no control and 3.0F at the net that doesn't want to be there? Practice starts this Saturday. We shall see...

I've also been invited to a 7.0 mixed. The captain is a 4.0F that is recovering from arm issues and doesn't expect to play frequently. She needs a 3.0 partner with a good attitude that is ready to be bumped up any time to be her partner.

Just try to act like a human being and you will be fine.

J

 

[SGM1980]

Just try to act like a human being and you will be fine.

J

Agreed. I never played 6.0 - can there be 2.5 players on it? A 2.5 and a 3.5 seems like a horror story waiting to happen.

Although definitely work on that whole, "hard hitting 3.0 with no control thing," okay? It's not a sin to hit the ball more than once before trying to hit a winner!

 

[Traffic]

Agreed. I never played 6.0 - can there be 2.5 players on it? A 2.5 and a 3.5 seems like a horror story waiting to happen.

Although definitely work on that whole, "hard hitting 3.0 with no control thing," okay? It's not a sin to hit the ball more than once before trying to hit a winner!

I believe 2.5s are allowed. So it's possible to see a 3.5/2.5 combo I guess.

I have pretty good control for a 3.0. But I will admit that if I am ROS of a hard hitting first serve, sometimes it goes directly to the net person if I am a hair late. Don't know what to do about that.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I've played as a 3.5 with 2.5 women in a mixed shootout and it's painful experience. If you want to win, you have to put them in a corner and tell them not to move. Which really is no fun for them unless they are there just to win. If they are there for fun, you have to let them try shots, which they usually send up as sitters that get you killed by the opposition 3.5 male.

 

[silentkman]

All in All mixed doubles is simply not fun. I really dont' see how I can improve playing mixed doubles. I've always wondered, what percentage of Men actually like playing mixed?

 

[Dartagnan64]

All in All mixed doubles is simply not fun. I really dont' see how I can improve playing mixed doubles. I've always wondered, what percentage of Men actually like playing mixed?

I like playing social mixed. I'm not as big a fan of shootout and tournament mixed where folks are uber serious.

There are several couples at our club that offer good competition where the women are fearless and solid and the men aren't head hunters and can play a touch game.

Mixed becomes a lot more desirable as the speed and testosterone levels in the male subside. When men stop comparing penis sizes and actually start playing tennis, all is much better.

 

[OrangePower]

All in All mixed doubles is simply not fun. I really dont' see how I can improve playing mixed doubles. I've always wondered, what percentage of Men actually like playing mixed?

I don't enjoy competitive mixed, and it's got nothing to do with gender and everything to do with the large differences in skill between the players on the court. It changes the optimal shot selection, and for me shot selection is more instinctive than something I think about, and is based on years of playing dubs against opponents of roughly equal ability.
I do enjoy social mixed though... I just play 'normally'.

 

[J011yroger]

All in All mixed doubles is simply not fun. I really dont' see how I can improve playing mixed doubles. I've always wondered, what percentage of Men actually like playing mixed?

I like it in moderation, it's made me a better player.

J

 

[TTMR]

I target women; but I hit on them, not at them.