Murray the new Sabatini?

N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Is Andy Murray the next Gabriela Sabatini. A player who wins alot of tier 1 or Masters type events, beating the likes of Graf, Seles, and Navratilova frequently to win that, or the likes of Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic. However continually comes up short against these players in the slams and wins either only 1 or 0.

Sabatini in her career made 18 slam semis. She won 7 tier 1 titles, and 2 WTA Championships. She had 11 career wins over Steffi Graf. Yet despite that she won only 1 Slam title at the 1990 U.S Open and made only 3 slam finals. She produced a combined only 1 win over Graf, Seles, Navratilova, and Evert in slam events, that being the 1990 U.S Open final vs Graf. She squandered many opportunities to post more, losing to Graf in the 87 French Open semis from 5-3 up in the 3rd set, losing to Graf in the 91 Wimbledon final after serving for the match twice, losing to Seles in the 92 French Open semis after being up 4-2 in the final set.

Furthermore both played quite similar games. Both used a variety of spins, played with offense as well as defense without being the absolute master of either, both had a great backhand down the line, both tried for big first serves and often missed and had attackable second serves, both were good at the net, and both had forheands that broke down.
 
racquetfreak

racquetfreak

Semi-Pro
he has the technical and physical skills. unfortunately he falls short with respect to emotional maturity and possibly tennis iq. that said his level is an order of magnitude of roddick who through some stroke of luck owns a major title.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
racquetfreak said:
he has the technical and physical skills. unfortunately he falls short with respect to emotional maturity and possibly tennis iq. that said his level is an order of magnitude of roddick who through some stroke of luck owns a major title.
Click to expand...

That sounds like an assessment that would have been made of Sabatini in her career too, which is why I am starting to see the parallel between the two.
 
T

tennis_fan_182

Banned
nah, don't see murray ever winning a masters in his career again. That means he'd have to beat Djokovic. Does anyone see that happening, EVER?
 
rossi46

rossi46

Professional
Nothing to compare, Sabatini was more mature than Murray when she was 18, come to think of it she was more mature than half of the guys on the tour.
 
Homeboy Hotel

Homeboy Hotel

Hall of Fame
tennis_fan_182 said:
nah, don't see murray ever winning a masters in his career again. That means he'd have to beat Djokovic. Does anyone see that happening, EVER?
Click to expand...

4437494-senior-business-team-with-a-young-female-worker-giving-thumbs-up-sign-they-are-all-laughing-hard.jpg
 
C

Caesar

Banned
No. Sabatini's problems weren't mental, they were technical. I can only remember one occassion when she really choked against a major opponent, and that was the Wimbledon final against Steffi Graf. Most of the time she was simply overpowered by Graf and Seles.

Murray has the game to win majors, just not the brain. But that's mostly a matter of maturity, and his game is very durable - he'll be around for a long time yet. It may not come for a year or two but he'll get there.

I suspect the further decline of Federer and Nadal will do more for him than any other player. Djokovic is a great matchup for him, and when the Serb comes off his hot streak then Murray will love his chances against him on the quicker surfaces.
 
reversef

reversef

Hall of Fame
Caesar said:
No. Sabatini's problems weren't mental, they were technical. I can only remember one occassion when she really choked against a major opponent, and that was the Wimbledon final against Steffi Graf. Most of the time she was simply overpowered by Graf and Seles.

Murray has the game to win majors, just not the brain. But that's mostly a matter of maturity, and his game is very durable - he'll be around for a long time yet. It may not come for a year or two but he'll get there.

I suspect the further decline of Federer and Nadal will do more for him than any other player. Djokovic is a great matchup for him, and when the Serb comes off his hot streak then Murray will love his chances against him on the quicker surfaces.
Click to expand...

Not really. Gabriela Sabatini could beat Graf and Seles. I think that she actually had more game (minus the serve, of course :)). A good example, I think, is Rome. But she was both inconsistant and vulnerable in the Slams, pretty much like Andy Murray. A good example of that is Rome. She beat Seles in the final in both 1991 and 1992, but lost against Monica at RG. She was the one who used to make it tough for the winners, but always lost in the big events. At least, she won a Slam and 2 Masters. Murray still has the time to do so, or even better. I can't see him retiring slamless. He's too good for that.
 
kishnabe

kishnabe

Talk Tennis Guru
I allways though Sabatini was a man....I was young kid then but I never understood why people thought she was hot.

Though her tennis was hot for sure.
 
T

tennis_fan_182

Banned
Caesar said:
No. Sabatini's problems weren't mental, they were technical. I can only remember one occassion when she really choked against a major opponent, and that was the Wimbledon final against Steffi Graf. Most of the time she was simply overpowered by Graf and Seles.

Murray has the game to win majors, just not the brain. But that's mostly a matter of maturity, and his game is very durable - he'll be around for a long time yet. It may not come for a year or two but he'll get there.

I suspect the further decline of Federer and Nadal will do more for him than any other player. Djokovic is a great matchup for him, and when the Serb comes off his hot streak then Murray will love his chances against him on the quicker surfaces.
Click to expand...

What are you on?

Murray's game is the opposite of durable. He relies on running and scrambling around in order to scrape some sort of weak junk ball over the net in a futile effort to force the mistakes that he hasn't yet realized the ELITE guys just will NEVER make?

What's the first thing to decline on any athlete? Movement. As soon as Murray slows slows down his change of direction speed and linear maximum speed - which will be in less than a year - he is complete toast. He won't even be able to get to any balls to push them weakly over the net.

I'd call someone like Berdych (too bad he's crap) or Federer the guys with a durable game. The guys who actually have a weapon or two and can generate their own pace so as not to rely outright on being younger and more mobile than their opponents.

Oh yeh, and Murray's match against Djokovic in the AO '11 tells you everything you need to know about how well his game matches up (or doesn't) against Djokovic, lol. I don't believe the usual spiel that Murray had a meltdown that day - he raised his game and played the best tennis he possibly could - and still got utterly, utterly destroyed!! How embarrassing.
 
Evan77

Evan77

Banned
You guys are so harsh when it comes to Murray. Ok, I know he hasn't won a major. He is a very good tennis player. He is still young.

I would not compare Sabatini with Murray. It's an interesting thread but you can't compare guys and girls here.
 
Mainad

Mainad

Bionic Poster
tennis_fan_182 said:
What are you on?
Click to expand...

What's He ON? What the heck are YOU are on?

tennis_fan_182 said:
Murray's game is the opposite of durable. He relies on running and scrambling around in order to scrape some sort of weak junk ball over the net in a futile effort to force the mistakes that he hasn't yet realized the ELITE guys just will NEVER make?
Click to expand...

Absolutely right,which is why he NEVER beats the elite guys.....OH WAIT?

tennis_fan_182 said:
What's the first thing to decline on any athlete? Movement. As soon as Murray slows slows down his change of direction speed and linear maximum speed - which will be in less than a year - he is complete toast. He won't even be able to get to any balls to push them weakly over the net.
Click to expand...

But according to you he can't get any balls over the net NOW and he is always beaten by every other player he ever comes up against.So what's this "in less than a year" business??

tennis_fan_182 said:
Oh yeh, and Murray's match against Djokovic in the AO '11 tells you everything you need to know about how well his game matches up (or doesn't) against Djokovic, lol. I don't believe the usual spiel that Murray had a meltdown that day - he raised his game and played the best tennis he possibly could - and still got utterly, utterly destroyed!! How embarrassing.
Click to expand...

But he still got 9 games.How did he manage that? How did he manage to get 13 games off Djokovic in Rome? How did he manage to get 9 games off Djokovic at Cincy (coz according to you Djokovic can beat him with both hands tied behind his back)?

Your pathetic inability to answer any of these questions or even try to say anything about Murray remotely worth listening to...now THAT's what's REALLY embarrassing!!
 
kishnabe

kishnabe

Talk Tennis Guru
Joe Pike said:
You know, only all these hetereosexual male adults found her hot.
Click to expand...

and are you calling me ****? Just because she was ugly in my eyes doesn't mean I am classfied another way. I have a girlfriend that has been stable for quite some time.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Murray isnt all out agressive. He isnt all out defensive either. He is a mix of both, which is another way in how he is a male Sabatini.

He definitely has the game to beat the best players, just rarely when it matters most (eg- in a slam final, or even a slam semifinal or WTF elmination match). That is another way he is like the male Sabatini.

I do think Murray will ultimately get atleast one slam. Then again Sabatini did as well. Sabatini won only 1 slam despite making 18 slam semis, and beat Graf only 1 time in a slam despite beating her 11 times overall. She never reached #1 despite one year having about 3 tournaments she could have passed both Graf and Seles in the rankings had she done a bit better. Once she only had to win a match with 16 year old Huber to get to #1 and couldnt do it. That is how I see the two as similar. They will have better stats as far as being the best players in tier 1s/Masters, make alot of slam semis or finals, but ultimately falling short the vast majority of the time. Will probably not retire slamless but with dissapointing stats as far as slam wins, wins over #1 ranked players in slams, or time spent at #1 or #2 (if any), relative to what their other stats- Masters or tier 1 wins, tournament wins, consistency making semis of slams, indicate they SHOULD have been able to do. Murary has many of the same problems as Sabatini- dicey 2nd serve, mentally up and down, not striking the right times to be agressive enough, inability to close out big matches.
 
Ripster

Ripster

Hall of Fame
NadalAgassi said:
Murray isnt all out agressive. He isnt all out defensive either. He is a mix of both, which is another way in how he is a male Sabatini.

He definitely has the game to beat the best players, just rarely when it matters most (eg- in a slam final, or even a slam semifinal or WTF elmination match). That is another way he is like the male Sabatini.

I do think Murray will ultimately get atleast one slam. Then again Sabatini did as well. Sabatini won only 1 slam despite making 18 slam semis, and beat Graf only 1 time in a slam despite beating her 11 times overall. She never reached #1 despite one year having about 3 tournaments she could have passed both Graf and Seles in the rankings had she done a bit better. Once she only had to win a match with 16 year old Huber to get to #1 and couldnt do it. That is how I see the two as similar. They will have better stats as far as being the best players in tier 1s/Masters, make alot of slam semis or finals, but ultimately falling short the vast majority of the time. Will probably not retire slamless but with dissapointing stats as far as slam wins, wins over #1 ranked players in slams, or time spent at #1 or #2 (if any), relative to what their other stats- Masters or tier 1 wins, tournament wins, consistency making semis of slams, indicate they SHOULD have been able to do. Murary has many of the same problems as Sabatini- dicey 2nd serve, mentally up and down, not striking the right times to be agressive enough, inability to close out big matches.
Click to expand...

Didn't you used to guarantee Murray would never win a slam? What changed your mind on that? The decline of Federer and Nadal? It seems to me that Murray has a great shot at the US Open, Australian Open and Wimbledon every year for the next 5 years. This year, I'd put him at second most likely to win the Open behind Novak.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Ripster said:
Didn't you used to guarantee Murray would never win a slam? What changed your mind on that? The decline of Federer and Nadal? It seems to me that Murray has a great shot at the US Open, Australian Open and Wimbledon every year for the next 5 years. This year, I'd put him at second most likely to win the Open behind Novak.
Click to expand...

Federer is indeed "finished' sooner than I expected him to be. I thought at the start of this year he would still win another slam or two, but now I think even that would be a miracle. He needs to avoid big hitters like Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, just to make the semis of a slam now. Sure he might motivate himself once in awhile to turn in a vintage performance like his semifinal with Djokovic at RG, but I cant see him winning 7 matches again.

Nadal meanwhile I am not prepared to say is in terminal decline but he is definitely slumping right now, which I also didnt expect. On his current form he isnt winning any major outside of Roland Garros, and isnt even a lock there, but we will see how long it is before he rebounds and comes back stronger, if he even does that is.

Meanwhile the up and comers continue to suck. Del Potro's comeback has been a flop so far. Cilic and Gulbis continue to be a flop period, Gulbis might be making progress from where he is but relative to his potential he is still a huge waste. Soderling, Berdych, the French players, dont look like slam winning material ever. I am not even going to get started on the oldies like Roddick, Hewitt and Fish. So there is an opening for the next short while. Djokovic is the heavy favorite for any tournament outside of Nadal at the French for the forseeable future though, unless Murray really stamps himself by beating Djokovic in back to back slam finals or something like that. Still Djokovic probably isnt going to win every slam, so someone else is going to have to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
TennisFan3

TennisFan3

Talk Tennis Guru
NadalAgassi said:
Federer is indeed "finished' sooner than I expected him to be. I thought at the start of this year he would still win another slam or two, but now I think even that would be a miracle. He needs to avoid big hitters like Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, just to make the semis of a slam now. Sure he might motivate himself once in awhile to turn in a vintage performance like his semifinal with Djokovic at RG, but I cant see him winning 7 matches again.

Nadal meanwhile I am not prepared to say is in terminal decline but he is definitely slumping right now, which I also didnt expect. On his current form he isnt winning any major outside of Roland Garros, and isnt even a lock there, but we will see how long it is before he rebounds and comes back stronger, if he even does that is.

Meanwhile the up and comers continue to suck. Del Potro's comeback has been a flop so far. Cilic and Gulbis continue to be a flop period, Gulbis might be making progress from where he is but relative to his potential he is still a huge waste. Soderling, Berdych, the French players, dont look like slam winning material ever. I am not even going to get started on the oldies like Roddick, Hewitt and Fish. So there is an opening for the next short while. Djokovic is the heavy favorite for any tournament outside of Nadal at the French for the forseeable future though, unless Murray really stamps himself by beating Djokovic in back to back slam finals or something like that. Still Djokovic probably isnt going to win every slam, so someone else is going to have to.
Click to expand...

Good post. I agree with most of this..
 
T

tennis_fan_182

Banned
Gulbis potential? Gulbis has no potential.

I don't see an up-and-comer winning a slam for a decade at least.

NadalAgassi - you have nothing to worry about - every single GS final for at least 5 years is a Nadal-Djokovic lock. Djokovic will probably win most of the encounters unless there is a huge momentum shift to Nadal.

The rest of the competition are simply on a different playing field.
 
D

danb

Professional
NadalAgassi said:
Is Andy Murray the next Gabriela Sabatini. A player who wins alot of tier 1 or Masters type events, beating the likes of Graf, Seles, and Navratilova frequently to win that, or the likes of Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic. However continually comes up short against these players in the slams and wins either only 1 or 0.

Sabatini in her career made 18 slam semis. She won 7 tier 1 titles, and 2 WTA Championships. She had 11 career wins over Steffi Graf. Yet despite that she won only 1 Slam title at the 1990 U.S Open and made only 3 slam finals. She produced a combined only 1 win over Graf, Seles, Navratilova, and Evert in slam events, that being the 1990 U.S Open final vs Graf. She squandered many opportunities to post more, losing to Graf in the 87 French Open semis from 5-3 up in the 3rd set, losing to Graf in the 91 Wimbledon final after serving for the match twice, losing to Seles in the 92 French Open semis after being up 4-2 in the final set.

Furthermore both played quite similar games. Both used a variety of spins, played with offense as well as defense without being the absolute master of either, both had a great backhand down the line, both tried for big first serves and often missed and had attackable second serves, both were good at the net, and both had forheands that broke down.
Click to expand...

Their balls are comparable too ... :evil:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

N
Does Murray have the Sabatini syndrome
2
Replies
70
Views
7K
zebedee
Z
thalivest
Will Djokovic end up as the next male Gabriela Sabatini
2
Replies
54
Views
6K
Steve0904
Steve0904
T
Myths and Truths on the Seles-Graf Rivalry
2 3
Replies
116
Views
21K
Silky Sampras
S
R
Frank Deford’s essay on Graf withstands the test of time and now bears repeating
Replies
6
Views
1K
Triskadekaphilia
Triskadekaphilia
Joe Pike
all-time greats and their best matches ever
Replies
8
Views
1K
PM_
PM_
Top