Novak Djokovic "Nadal was just too strong today"

[Sephiroth]

Yes in what could easily be argued as the worst set Djokovic has ever played and it had nothing to do with Nadal.

He breadsticked him in the third set.

 

[tennis_pro]

Nadal's prime was surely 2008, not 2013...

Go make a thread that Nadal wasn't in his prime in 2013 in the General Pro section and get ridiculed mercilessly.

Nadal's prime arguably ended in 2014. 2008 was his peak.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Hitman, I'm about to go to work, and while showering I was thinking about something:

Most people are incapable of distinguishing between a preference and a fact. So if they love to watch Federer, or Djokovic, for them one becomes superior? Why? Because they like one and don't like the other.

In the end this is not different from chocolate and vanilla ice cream. I happen to love chocolate. I don't want any other flavor of ice cream. Vanilla is OK, but I'd rather have nothing that strawberry ice cream. That's fine, so long as I don't try to justify a preference that is based on nothing but experience and my genetics. But if I bombarded this forum with statistics every day "proving" that chocolate is superior, any logical person would conclude that I'm not too bright, and certainly not very logical.

Yet this is what happens daily, except that instead of the Big Three flavors of ice cream, we have the Big Three in tennis, with some people solidly behind a few other "flavors" (Wawrinka, Murray, others.)

In order to judge who is best you have to go by majors, or masters, or winning percentage, or game%. Some of these will be better metrics than others, but we don't have any absolutes in tennis. For track you have records, and you can state who is fastest, and when. Same for swimming. You can argue about what people are using (shoes, starting blocks, suits for swimming that are molded to the body that pretty much make all the men look castrated and clipped, and the women as flat as boys.) So even in track and swimming, it's not like people jump into the water from a boat or a dock then swim a very long distance naked and get timed. There are always extras. Lots of extras in tennis.

But in tennis you can only judge the level of one man (or woman) against the level of the opponent, so all the arguments about 1/2 step slow, can't hit peak forehand/stroke of your choice are based on "the eye test" for the most part. That may change in the future, but so far we have Hawkeye for lines and I guess for service speed, average speed of groundstrokes, average spin, average position behind the baseline, various stats, but none measure absolute ability the way it is measured in golf (if I understand this game), because there you at least have a record of all the scores and scores in other years on the same courses.

People are essentially emotional, irrational and therefore highly illogical about facts.

Yeah, you are on the money with this statement. I don't think those grey areas you elude to will ever be truly eliminated from tennis. I personally don't see how it is possible, because as you say, you are judging levels by having them face off and a wide range of variables then come into play. This leads to a lot of fan wars, which TTW is a classic example of.

 

[tennis_pro]

He breadsticked him in the third set.

In a match in which Nadal won two sets 6-0 and 6-1 he still lost a set. Djokovic won a set against Nadal on clay on confidence alone. What do you think is going to happen if Djokovic is fresh?

Some of you Nadal fans are in absolute denial. Nadal playing his 2019 best against Djokovic with 10% battery still lost a set to him. The match should've been 6-2 6-1 for Nadal.

 

[StrongRule]

Yes in what could easily be argued as the worst set Djokovic has ever played and it had nothing to do with Nadal.

LOL! This is exactly what I was talking about. A great example of a hater. Djokovic wasn't at his best, but the worst set he ever played?
For starters, the first set in Cincinnati 2012 final was MUCH worse from him.

 

[Heuristic]

Go make a thread that Nadal wasn't in his prime in 2013 in the General Pro section and get ridiculed mercilessly.

Nadal's prime arguably ended in 2014. 2008 was his peak.

So you are seriously suggesting that Nadals movement was 100% in 2013? Hard to concider a grinder to be in his prime if he isn't fully utilizing his capabilities

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Pretty much this. I don't have any problems with you (or good Djokovic fans in general) defending Djokovic here, especially since he was really far from his best. What is annoying is that such comments are also coming from users who don't care about Djokovic at all, and they supported him only because they wanted Nadal to lose.

Yeah, I know. There are a couple bad apples in every basket I'm afraid. I personally like Nadal, and think he is a greater player than Djokovic and I have not deviated from that. I don't say that to appear so called objective, because I am not objective, but I see it for what it is. And I am totally content with that, because I know without Nadal and his greatness, and the same applies to Federer and his greatness, there would never have been a Djokovic.

 

[Sephiroth]

In a match in which Nadal won two sets 6-0 and 6-1 he still lost a set. Djokovic won a set against Nadal on clay on confidence alone. What do you think is going to happen if Djokovic is fresh?

Some of you Nadal fans are in absolute denial.

6-0 and 6-1 are still big scorelines for sets and show Nadal was mauling Djokovic, Novak didn't have any chances in the first set, only the last set where at the beginning he missed. The 2nd set wasn't anything special by either of the players, both were choking hard.

No one is in denial here. It will be all different at RG, different court, environment and everything.

 

[tennis_pro]

So you are seriously suggesting that Nadals movement was 100% in 2013? Hard to concider a grinder to be in his prime if he isn't fully utilizing his capabilities

I don't think you understand the difference between prime and peak.

 

[Sephiroth]

So you are seriously suggesting that Nadals movement was 100% in 2013? Hard to concider a grinder to be in his prime if he isn't fully utilizing his capabilities

Nadal's best years were 2008-2013/half of 2014.

He was very good in 2013. Especially American HC season.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

How many times have you seen me draw fire as a partisan fan of Djokovic? I've been accused of pretending to be a fan of Fed, lying to troll, when the fact is that he is the only player currently playing whose matches I never miss.

This is a VERY strange place!!!

LOL, yeah, I have seen that. And you are right.

 

[tennis_pro]

6-0 and 6-1 are still big scorelines for sets and show Nadal was mauling Djokovic, Novak didn't have any chances in the first set, only the last set where at the beginning he missed. The 2nd set wasn't anything special by either of the players, both were choking hard.

No one is in denial here. It will be all different at RG, different court, environment and everything.

Yes different everything, like a fresh Djokovic instead of one that barely survived the previous 2 matches and was on his last legs.

 

[Heuristic]

I don't think you understand the difference between prime and peak.

I do understand the differences, and I don't think it's sufficient for a "prime" either.

 

[Sephiroth]

Yes different everything, like a fresh Djokovic instead of one that barely survived the previous 2 matches and was on his last legs.

How do you know Djokovic will be fresh throughout the tournament? He's going to have it much tougher vs the field than Nadal. Also Nadal was playing well in the Rome final I doubt a fresh Djokovic would've made much difference.

 

[tennis_pro]

I do understand the differences, and I don't think it's sufficient for a "prime" either.

I dare you to make a thread that Nadal wasn't in his prime in 2013.

 

[tennis_pro]

How do you know Djokovic will be fresh throughout the tournament? He's going to have it much tougher vs the field than Nadal. Also Nadal was playing well in the Rome final I doubt a fresh Djokovic would've made much difference.

That's why you live in your fantasy world and I don't.

 

[Sephiroth]

That's why you live in your fantasy world and I don't.

Yeah because a "fresh Djokovic would do this or that" isn't fantasy at all. Keep dreaming man. Nadal will maul Djokovic at RG with an even better court for Nadal's game to come to life on and add the extra confidence from beating Djokovic.

 

[tennis_pro]

Yeah because a "fresh Djokovic would do this or that" isn't fantasy at all. Keep dreaming man. Nadal will maul Djokovic at RG with an even better court for Nadal's game to come to life on and add the extra confidence from beating Djokovic.

If that makes you sleep better please continue this insanity.

 

[Heuristic]

That's why you live in your fantasy world and I don't.

You seem to live in a world in which an elite athlete at age 31 can't recover to play several tough matches in succession.

 

[Sephiroth]

ok

Especially on a very hot sunny day the topspin will be in full effect. If you know your Tennis and Nadal's brutal hitting at Phillip Chatrier you should know how his game is amplified by magnitudes compared to any other clay court.

 

[tennis_pro]

Especially on a very hot sunny day the topspin will be in full effect. If you know your Tennis and Nadal's brutal hitting at Phillip Chatrier you should know how his game is amplified by magnitudes compared to any other clay court.

yeah especially in 2015

A much better Nadal couldn't "maul" (as you claim) Djokovic at the FO, if Nadal wins it's gonna be in 4-5 sets. Unless you use the word mauling as your top shelf word when referring to Nadal potentially beating Djokovic 6-3 6-7 6-4 7-6 in which case I pity your limited vocabulary.

 

[tennis_pro]

You seem to live in a world in which an elite athlete at age 31 can't recover to play several tough matches in succession.

Yes clearly Djokovic was fresh in the final.

 

[tennis_pro]

2015...2015...2015

One swallow doesn't make wife material.

2012 - close 4 sets, Djokovic actually won 8 games in a row at one point
2013 - Djokovic should've won
2014 - a lot closer than the scoreline suggests, close 4-setter
2015 - Djokovic wins in 3

Go read a book or something.

 

[Mark-Touch]

So he's been donating boatload of points every time he loses against Rafa on Clay? Or it it just this match?

I was only referring to this match, as I watched some of it.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Im too lazy to read all this mess, what are yall arguing about exactly?

 

[haqq777]

Im too lazy to read all this mess, what are yall arguing about exactly?

I have no clue by now either lol.

 

[MichaelNadal]

I have no clue by now either lol.

Jesus is shaking his head lol

 

[Backspin1183]

He breadsticked him in the third set.

It had nothing to do with Nadal.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Before the final I asked myself whether players will play all out or will try to leave something for later. My impression is that Nadal played all out and that Djokovic was unable to live with him. What made difference was devastating forehand DTL that worked so well. I think that Nadal has provided updated information about his current state and pattern of play. I think that Djokovic lost the battle, but could win the war. Based on what I heard, I believe that Djokovic consider this RG to be his highest priority.

(I shouldn't have to preface my point, but I'm a huge fan of both.)
RG is everyone's biggest priority during the clay season, but because he had been shut out in his previous three clay tourneys - and Novak was coming off his win in Madrid - Rafa most likely came into this tourney with just a little more motivation to win it. I think he needed it just a little more. This takes nothing away from his convincing (though three-set) victory. He was the sharper player throughout the tourney and earned more rest heading into their showdown. Clearly, he was better Sunday as well.

 

[Heuristic]

Yes clearly Djokovic was fresh in the final.

Would he be fresh in a grand slam final?

 

[r2473]

Just a week ago people here were saying Rafa’s chances are worse than Thiem, now he is back to being the unquestionable favourite. This forum is great

Just wait three weeks

 

[Checkmate]

I think Novak made a very slow start, content with counter-punching while Nadal hit the sixth gear from the get-go.

It took some time for Novak to settle down to Nadal's aggression and we finally saw some of their animalistic baseline exchanges that we can expect to be there in the RG 2019 final if Djokovic makes it that far.

I think, stamina factor really kicked in the 3rd set and we can't make much of it.


I don't think anybody can beat Nadal from the baseline on clay, with the sole exception being the World Number 1.

So, he for me, is definitely making it to the final.

Djokovic, OTOH, needs to get better from the baseline and switch on that aggression mode from Round 1.

 

[Manhattan]

Yup, he was. For the first time he started his match hitting the ball absolutely hard. The first few games of the match actually were very crucial where Rafa scared the **** out of Nole. That's how he should always play. That mighty DTL forehand is a killer.


https://bit.ly/2WejhTp

 

[Subway Tennis]

Just a week ago people here were saying Rafa’s chances are worse than Thiem, now he is back to being the unquestionable favourite. This forum is great

All those comments come from the same 5 or 6 trolls who say they never watch clay season though lol. Although the situation is improving: the TT moderators have gotten far more vigilant with deleting duplicate accounts.

From my own standpoint, I think Djokovic is being diplomatic with his comments here. The same way Nadal sometimes mentions "not the time to discuss injuries", Djokovic is not wanting to make excuses.

Nadal is close to unbeatable on clay in this form, but the match would have been far closer if Djokovic weren't running on fumes (imo).

 

[Grampa]

And all the comments are written by the same 5 or 6 trolls who say they never watch clay season lol.

From my own standpoint, I think Djokovic is being quite diplomatic with his comments here. The same way Nadal sometimes mentions "not the time to discuss injuries", Djokovic is not wanting to make excuses.

I think the view we all have on this match is that it would have been far closer if he weren't running on fumes.

The comments are being sprayed out of all fanbases. I obviously will focus more on Nadal’s fanbase as it concerns their guy. They were handwringing throughout the clay season and few have gone in reverse with claims that Nadal is the huge favourite. I was a long time lurker here before finally making an account so nothing new, just that now I can express my thoughts.

 

[Subway Tennis]

The comments are being sprayed out of all fanbases. I obviously will focus more on Nadal’s fanbase as it concerns their guy. They were handwringing throughout the clay season and few have gone in reverse with claims that Nadal is the huge favourite. I was a long time lurker here before finally making an account so nothing new, just that now I can express my thoughts.

Fair. Welcome to the boards.

 

[Jonas78]

Im too lazy to read all this mess, what are yall arguing about exactly?

Short story.

- Did Djokovic really meant what he said?
- Did Djokovic two previous matches affect the result?

Nothing mess up the fanbases more than these kinds of questions

 

[tennis_pro]

oh my gosh!
i have been trying to get djoko-nationalists like you to admit this for years and now it finally happens!

hopefully you realize just how much you've given/offered up in this exchange, and all for the 'hope' that you feel Djokovic will win RG this year! LOL...

oh man, this is amazing...

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Lew II]

In 2016 Djokovic won Madrid, battled through QF and SF of Rome, and then lost the final.

 

[alexio]

In 2016 Djokovic won Madrid, battled through QF and SF of Rome, and then lost the final.

...and then won RG

 

[Azure]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

How did you create this smiley? Its very nice!

 

[tennis_pro]

How did you create this smiley? Its very nice!

( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

5 bucks and I'll tell you.

 

[Azure]

( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

5 bucks and I'll tell you.

How do I give you over the forum?

 

[tennis_pro]

How do I give you over the forum?

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

Spoiler

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Spoiler

[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅]

 

[Azure]

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅]

You have again wasted 5 seconds of my life. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) (copy paste is brute method, but works)

 

[tennis_pro]

You have again wasted 5 seconds of my life. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) (copy paste is brute method, but works)

"lenny face generator"

You owe me a big kiss to the cheek ( ͡♥ 3 ͡♥)

 

[vernonbc]

Im too lazy to read all this mess, what are yall arguing about exactly?

Just think. All of this could have been avoided if Delpo hadn't whiffed a gimme shot on match point. Oh Delpo, what a mess you created.

 

[Azure]

"lenny face generator"

You owe me a big kiss to the cheek ( ͡♥ 3 ͡♥)

ok you get one.

 

[I Am Finnish]

@tennis_pro vs the Nadal fans

There is a chance either one of them will not reach the final or maybe both
The debate would be for nothing Then

 

[tennis_pro]

@tennis_pro vs the Nadal fans

There is a chance either one of them will not reach the final or maybe both
The debate would be for nothing Then

I'm a one man army ╾━╤デ╦︻(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿)