Novak second most aggressive player on tour after Fed.

[tennisaddict]

I would perhaps venture to say (to the ire of some here who hate the youngster) that Tsitsipas is an aggressive player. He attacks more than most players on the tour. Djokovic plays at his will in most matches but I don't know if that is aggression. He is not just a defensive wall though. That's exaggeration on another extreme.

Why ire ? Tsitsipas is of course more aggressive than Djokovic.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?

 

[Sysyphus]

If Nadal is seen as defensive because he is 5 meters behind the baseline, don’t we have to acknowledge Novak as aggressive playing right on the baseline?

jesus

Not sure if serious, but there's a whole lot more to aggression than standing far up on the baseline.

That said, court positioning and taking time away is indeed one factor of aggression, and precisely because of this, it is fairly widely agreed that Djokovic is indeed more aggressive than Nadal, so it's not like people don't give him 'credit' for this.

But you seem to believe that Djokovic is the only guy who takes the ball somewhat early. Not so. A guy like Rublev is even more uncompromising in keeping an aggressive court positioning than Novak is and plays clearly higher up on the risk–consistency spectrum. When Rublev played Nadal at the US Open, his average court positioning was inside the baseline. The insane amount of risk didn't pay off of course (due to lack of consistency), but that doesn't make it any less aggressive (and more so than Djokovic's normal approach to the game, even if less successful. Because, again, aggression ≠ level of play).

 

[Azure]

Why ire ? Tsitsipas is of course more aggressive than Djokovic.

That is because a lot of posters here tend to mix their distaste in a person's character and their ability in their profession.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

jesus

Not sure if serious, but there's a whole lot more to aggression than standing far up on the baseline.

That said, court positioning and taking time away is indeed one factor of aggression, and precisely because of this, it is fairly widely agreed that Djokovic is indeed more aggressive than Nadal, so it's not like people don't give him 'credit' for this.

But you seem to believe that Djokovic is the only guy who takes the ball somewhat early. Not so. A guy like Rublev is even more uncompromising in keeping an aggressive court positioning than Novak is and plays clearly higher up on the risk–consistency spectrum. When Rublev played Nadal at the US Open, his average court positioning was inside the baseline. The insane amount of risk didn't pay off of course (due to lack of consistency), but that doesn't make it any less aggressive (and more so than Djokovic's normal approach to the game, even if less successful. Because, again, aggression ≠ level of play).

Come on don’t be disingenuous, I mentioned Roger as hitting the ball early from the outset.

Of course your line of logic can be inverted by saying Rublev or whoever else is not as good. In your interpretation however they are given extra brownie points for aggression while Novak who is implementing the said tactic even more aggressively, is seen not to be as aggressive because he is so good.

I’m not sure what you angle is here besides decreeing unilaterally what ‘aggression’ means in tennis.

 

[Sysyphus]

Come on don’t be disingenuous, I mentioned Roger as hitting the ball early from the outset.

And? Not sure what your point is.

Of course your line of logic can be inverted by saying Rublev or whoever else is not as good. In your interpretation however they are given extra brownie points for aggression while Novak who is implementing the said tactic even more aggressively, is seen not to be aggressive because he is so good.

I’m not sure what you angle is here besides decreeing unilaterally what ‘aggression’ means in tennis.

Novak isn't carrying out said tactic 'more aggressively' than guys like Basilashvili or Rublev, that's precisely what makes this very much a stretch.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

And? Not sure what your point is.



Novak isn't carrying out said tactic 'more aggressively' than guys like Basilashvili or Rublev, that's precisely what makes this very much a stretch.

Regarding the first point, refer to your prior posts where you made the incorrect sarcastic point that I only mentioned Novak, when I mentioned Roger from the outset.

Regarding the second point you say it’s ‘big stretch’, then mention Rublev to counter with a current ranking of 99 and then Basilashvilli, who does take it early as well, but not noticeably more so than Djokovic.

 

[Sysyphus]

Novak Djokovic

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 52.1%
Tour average: 58.6% (whop whop)

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 13.7%
Tour average: 9.3%

Basilashvili

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 60.8%
Tour average: 58.6%

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 9.2%
Tour average: 9.3%

Rublev

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 59.5%
Tour average: 58.6%

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 8.9%
Tour average: 9.3%

Both Basilashvili and Rublev also end a greater share of all rallies they play (win or lose) with winners.

Let's just put this to rest. Novak Djokovic is the best tennis player in the world at the moment and close to the best of all time, but this is not because he approaches the game in a more aggressive manner than the rest. He is not desperate to end rallies quickly, and doesn't mind extending them with higher-margin play.

 

[KINGROGER]

IMO RG 2012 SF was a rather poor quality match by both players.

From what I could recall, Nole basically kept the ball in play and Federer gave us an UFE masterclass.

 

[tennisaddict]

Pat Cash: Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal are boring
"What is getting mundane is watching the same tactic in every single match of every single grand slam for the last five or six years. Nowadays they all settle down and say 'OK, this is going to be two hours of baseline rallies.' The guy who outlasts the other one wins. It’s taken a lot of the skill out of tennis."

https://www.si.com/tennis/beyond-baseline/2013/09/18/pat-cash-novak-djokovic-rafael-nadal-boring

 

[RF#21]

Nole is a highly defensive player that relies mostly on his opponent’s errors until he plays Nadal, this is when he decides to play ultra aggressive. Only match I can really recall where he beat Roger through higher levels of aggression was perhaps the first two sets of the 2016 AO semi.

 

[tennisaddict]

Marc Rosset: ´Djokovic and Murray`s matches are boring. Only Federer brings something different´.

Marc Rosset said he gets no excitement by watching Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray: "Their matches are boring and always follow the same script.

Even if they played 50 times, nothing would change.

 

[guitarra]

Novak takes the ball early on consistent basis (is probably 2nd only to Fed in that department) and redirects it (uses angles) like nobody else on tour.

One doesn't need to hit strong and ball bash all the time to be aggressive.

 

[tennisaddict]

54 shot rally between Murray and Djokovic for your viewing pleasure . This is a microcosm of all the AO Epic finals that these two had.

 

[Sysyphus]

54 shot rally between Murray and Djokovic for your viewing pleasure :

but look at how early Djokovic is taking that ball while camped two meters behind the baseline…

(no, there is nothing unique about Djokovic's court positioning, even if you take Fed out of the equation. Several players stand as far up in the court or further.)

 

[TheAssassin]

I like how these days a couple of marathon rallies is all it takes to prove that a player is not aggressive in general.

 

[BeatlesFan]

All this talk that Novak is a pusher is some of the biggest load of rot I’ve ever read on this forum.

The fact of the matter is that Novak is the second most aggressive player on the tour after Fed.

Novak is definitely not a "pusher" and to call someone with 15 majors that adjective is ridiculous. But he cannot be an aggressive player when he rarely approaches the net and hardly ever serves and volleys. The description is a complete misnomer when applied to Djokovic. No baseliner is aggressive compared to even a moderately successful serve and volleyer. Agassi and Djokovic are "aggressive baseliners." This is true aggressive play:

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Novak Djokovic

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 52.1%
Tour average: 58.6% (whop whop)

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 13.7%
Tour average: 9.3%

Basilashvili

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 60.8%
Tour average: 58.6%

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 9.2%
Tour average: 9.3%

Rublev

Share of rallies lasting 1–3 shots: 59.5%
Tour average: 58.6%

Share of rallies lasting 10+ shots: 8.9%
Tour average: 9.3%

Both Basilashvili and Rublev also end a greater share of all rallies they play (win or lose) with winners.

Let's just put this to rest. Novak Djokovic is the best tennis player in the world at the moment and close to the best of all time, but this is not because he approaches the game in a more aggressive manner than the rest. He is not desperate to end rallies quickly, and doesn't mind extending them with higher-margin play.

For those numbers to mean something concrete you would need to see the difference between their serve and return games.

Unless you would want to argue that unforced errors on the return game help convey more aggression.

 

[Sysyphus]

For those numbers to mean something concrete you would need to see the difference between their serve and return games.

Unless you would want to argue that unforced errors on the return game help convey more aggression.

Already revealed that they not only play shorter points, but end more points by winners (which holds true at almost any rally length), so the picture is perfectly clear.

 

[Azure]

Novak is definitely not a "pusher" and to call someone with 15 majors that adjective is ridiculous. But he cannot be an aggressive player when he rarely approaches the net and hardly ever serves and volleys. The description is a complete misnomer when applied to Djokovic. No baseliner is aggressive compared to even a moderately successful serve and volleyer. Agassi and Djokovic are "aggressive baseliners." This is true aggressive play:

You know everytime I watch the ending of this match and see Fed crying, he knows that he has beaten a great, there is a respect that overflows in the form of tears. Everytime I see a Kyrgios beating a great, I see arrogance. There is no 'gratitude' in being able to play with someone who has carried the torch of the sport for over a decade. Rightfully so, he has taken the mantle from Sampras here. I think that clearly differentiates the attitude in the players.

Just my naive rambling

 

[NatF]

I doubt Federer is even the most aggressive player on tour, so Djokovic being the second is just lol. That's not to say Djokovic isn't aggressive, just he's clearly not #2 in the world.

 

[tennisaddict]

I like how these days a couple of marathon rallies is all it takes to prove that a player is not aggressive in general.

Winner2011 Australian Open (2)Hard Andy Murray 6–4, 6–2, 6–3
Winner2012 Australian Open (3)Hard Rafael Nadal 5–7, 6–4, 6–2, 6–7(5–7), 7–5
Winner2013 Australian Open (4)Hard Andy Murray 6–7(2–7), 7–6(7–3), 6–3, 6–2
Winner2015 Australian Open (5)Hard Andy Murray 7–6(7–5), 6–7(4–7), 6–3, 6–0
Winner2016 Australian Open (6)Hard Andy Murray 6–1, 7–5, 7–6(7–3)

 

[King No1e]

Djokovic is controlled aggression
Federer is relentless aggression.
Nadal isn't an aggressor. He uses the opponent's aggression against him

 

[TheAssassin]

Winner2011 Australian Open (2)Hard Andy Murray 6–4, 6–2, 6–3
Winner2012 Australian Open (3)Hard Rafael Nadal 5–7, 6–4, 6–2, 6–7(5–7), 7–5
Winner2013 Australian Open (4)Hard Andy Murray 6–7(2–7), 7–6(7–3), 6–3, 6–2
Winner2015 Australian Open (5)Hard Andy Murray 7–6(7–5), 6–7(4–7), 6–3, 6–0
Winner2016 Australian Open (6)Hard Andy Murray 6–1, 7–5, 7–6(7–3)

?

Thanks for reminding me he is untouchable in AO finals I guess. Knew that a long time ago.

 

[HetTheGreaterer]

Novak is definitely not a "pusher" and to call someone with 15 majors that adjective is ridiculous. But he cannot be an aggressive player when he rarely approaches the net and hardly ever serves and volleys. The description is a complete misnomer when applied to Djokovic. No baseliner is aggressive compared to even a moderately successful serve and volleyer. Agassi and Djokovic are "aggressive baseliners." This is true aggressive play:

FEDER

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Already revealed that they not only play shorter points, but end more points by winners (which holds true at almost any rally length), so the picture is perfectly clear.

Well my hunch is that Djokovic gets into his opponents service games much more, which would skew the numbers.

 

[Luka888]

If you watch carefully Dokovic is aggressive. He can mix it up and I can go as far as he is the best at it. It depends who he is playing against. You don't win 15 majors by just defending the line. It's kinda silly.

 

[Subway Tennis]

It kind of does. If you are going to argue that serve and volley is aggressive (because it takes time away) then you have to accept that taking the ball earlier in the baseline rally, which is the prevailing pattern of play in all current matches, is aggressive.

And so besides Roger, who else is implementing this aggressive tactic?

Nishikori is also very adept at taking the ball early in a similar manner. But he lacks the transitional game to take advantage as much as Roger and Novak do.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Nonsensical thread.

To compare Novak Djokovic, the human backboard, to Federer, the GOAT, with his stylish swashbuckling style of play, is heresy.