interesting, Mobile for Nationals is no worse than the rainy garbage Orlando has been presenting. Feel bad because Mobile goes all out for the players in tournaments not run by STA or USTA Staff.
Only 1 singles for Nationals 40+ :(
- Thread starter OnTheLine
- Start date
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
From the National regulations:
"2.01A(1)a In Plus (+) NTRP level utilizing four or less individual matches within a team match, no more than one Plus (+) level player shall be allowed to play in a team match and shall be required to play in a #1 position, either singles or doubles."
This is one of the not-very-well-thought-out consequences of the very stupid decision by the USTA in forcing the 4.5+ league to adopt the 1S/3D format. It screws not only 4.5 singles players, but 5.0s as well.
I'm sorry Atatu, I must've missed the part where it said specifically what the rules were for Southern and how many plus players could play. Can you point that part out?
atatu
Legend
My bad, although the first part of your questions was specific to Southern, I didn't realize the second part was also. Sorry.
Completely off topic but this is why I rarely comment on some of these threads. Lots of people provide good information but some are just quick to be a keyboard bully and act like children.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Agree. I would be dropping my GOAT level tennis knowledge on this board, but it would be unappreciated, only pearls cast before swine.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
I failed to mention in my original post that Southern USTA has also gone away with Mobile AL for 2020 Sectionals except for Combo. Nice to see Rome GA on the docket for once and other locations like Auburn AL. Played in Sectionals years back at Auburn University - great complex. Years of complaints about Mobile were finally heard.
That's fine, I enjoyed Sectionals when it was in Birmingham, circa 2011 or so, Rome has a huge facility so that will help, plus a major airport close by. Good to move Sectionals around, curious who got Mixed Sectionals in Southern? Was in LR last 2 yrs.
BeyondTheTape
Semi-Pro
well i'll be dammed i have that list as well. Mixed still says TBD.
Southern 2020 Sectionals
Edit: Might as well post the link for the fine southern folk who find this thread.
LOL, I just did a search as well and saw the TBD. Guess I was just being lazy.
Thanks for posting.
Papa Mango
Professional
Looks like NorCal is going with the standard sets/games lost; game win % tie break in case of a 2-2 split..
3 individual matches won;
If tied 2-2, the tie shall be broken by the first of the following methods to do so:
a) Sets: Loser of the fewest number of sets.
b) Games: Loser of the fewest number of games.
c) Game Winning Percentage: Total games won divided by total games played
From Pg 37:
Dum Dums....
3 individual matches won;
If tied 2-2, the tie shall be broken by the first of the following methods to do so:
a) Sets: Loser of the fewest number of sets.
b) Games: Loser of the fewest number of games.
c) Game Winning Percentage: Total games won divided by total games played
From Pg 37:
Dum Dums....
schmke
Legend
NorCal plays a lot of matches. Bound to be some ties.Looks like NorCal is going with the standard sets/games lost; game win % tie break in case of a 2-2 split..
3 individual matches won;
If tied 2-2, the tie shall be broken by the first of the following methods to do so:
a) Sets: Loser of the fewest number of sets.
b) Games: Loser of the fewest number of games.
c) Game Winning Percentage: Total games won divided by total games played
From Pg 37:
Dum Dums....
schmke
Legend
NorCal is following PNW's path and using points per position for 40+. And are in fact also doing one point for 1S, 2D, 3D, and 2 points for 1D the same as PNW.
So they avoid the ties, but introduce PPP where, to my knowledge, it hadn't been used before so we'll see how that goes over.
Papa Mango
Professional
schmke
Legend
Tracking down an on-line resource, but this text was sent to me by several NorCal captains:
Adult 40 & Over Tie-Break Procedure for a 4-line Format. Points per Position will be used to determine a match winner and league standings. A win in the #1 doubles position will be worth 2 points. Match wins in the other positions - #1 singles, #2 doubles and #3 doubles - will be worth 1 point each. The team with the most cumulative points in local league play will be in first place in the flight. In the event that teams are tied in points won at the end of the local league season, the following shall be used to break the tie in the order listed.
1. Points per Position
2. Head-to-Head
3. Least sets lost
4. Least games lost
5. Coin toss
Papa Mango
Professional
kylebarendrick
Professional
I can confirm the Norcal information. I received it in the Captain's email as well.
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk
schmke
Legend
Well, very few like the 4-court format. But given it is what we have, do you prefer 2-2 ties or points-per-position?
Papa Mango
Professional
Assuming that is a rhetorical question.....
Ties with a battle Royale at the end of the season
I have already told my captain not to ever put me on 1D...
dcdoorknob
Hall of Fame
Our local league (San Antonio) is staying with the 2 S /3 D format for the 40+ 4.5+ league during regular season and local playoffs. . They cited concerns with the 5.0s monopolizing the singles line if there was only one singles and the 4.5s in the league never getting to play singles.
The 3.0 - 4.0 40+ leagues will be 1 singles and 4 doubles locally, which I thought was interesting.
The 3.0 - 4.0 40+ leagues will be 1 singles and 4 doubles locally, which I thought was interesting.
As with any bureaucracy, they try to accomplish what is easiest for the bureaucracy.
schmke
Legend
That is odd. If they weren't going to adopt the 4-court format, why not just stay with 2S/3D for all? They must have felt pressure from some to not require 2 singles courts at the other levels? They do avoid the 2-2 tie situation by sticking with 4-courts though, and get 9 players in every match which some will like.
ATX Tennis
Rookie
Austin is doing 1/3 with team record for standings. I anticipate a lot of matches being decided by the games lost tie-breaker which will blow the minds of some of the players. Basically, you have to fight or scratch for every game, which might be USTA's devious plan to combat sandbagging. Lol.
schmke
Legend
A feeble attempt at combatting sandbagging this way IMHO. Sandbaggers are often on teams not vying for winning a flight, so they already don't really care about getting team "wins" or advancing. Winning comes next year when the loaded team is assembled. Or these teams are loaded with players and are confident they can win the other three courts and win a team match or accumulate enough points that way to not have to worry about the court being tanked.
BTW, thanks to all those chiming in with how your league is handling things. I'm putting together a list on my blog so there is a reference and we can see how varied all the sections/districts/areas are.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
40+ league begins in 1 week locally. Here is what I have noticed so far: (note players will continue to sign up between now and start of season so total player count will likely grow but number of teams will remain static as schedules/flights are set)
Team counts
3.0F 2019 8 teams total players 125 2020 9 teams total players 88
3.5F 2019 18 teams total players 260 2020 20 teams total players 224
4.0F 2019 12 teams total players 184 2020 10 teams total players 147
4.5F 2019 2 teams total players 55 2020 3 teams total players 34
3.0M 2019 6 teams total players 67 2020 5 teams total players 44
3.5M 2019 11 teams total players 121 2020 9 teams total players 100
4.0M 2019 12 teams total players 165 2020 11 teams total players 117
4.5M 2019 7 teams total players 104 2020 8 teams total players 84
BIG EDIT: My original showed only 6 teams at 4.0F .... because I saw one flight of 6 ... didn't notice another flight of 4 teams ... so a drop of 2 teams, not a drop of 6 teams. (why we would split flights this way instead of two flights of 5 I have no idea) Still a drop of 2 teams.
On the men's side, fewer teams at each level except 4.5+
With a few rare exceptions most teams are carrying the same number of players as last year in the 12-14 range.
Team counts
3.0F 2019 8 teams total players 125 2020 9 teams total players 88
3.5F 2019 18 teams total players 260 2020 20 teams total players 224
4.0F 2019 12 teams total players 184 2020 10 teams total players 147
4.5F 2019 2 teams total players 55 2020 3 teams total players 34
3.0M 2019 6 teams total players 67 2020 5 teams total players 44
3.5M 2019 11 teams total players 121 2020 9 teams total players 100
4.0M 2019 12 teams total players 165 2020 11 teams total players 117
4.5M 2019 7 teams total players 104 2020 8 teams total players 84
BIG EDIT: My original showed only 6 teams at 4.0F .... because I saw one flight of 6 ... didn't notice another flight of 4 teams ... so a drop of 2 teams, not a drop of 6 teams. (why we would split flights this way instead of two flights of 5 I have no idea) Still a drop of 2 teams.
On the men's side, fewer teams at each level except 4.5+
With a few rare exceptions most teams are carrying the same number of players as last year in the 12-14 range.
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schmke
Legend
Nice work. I plan on doing some comparisons overall once more areas start their 40+ seasons.
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
In my email discussions with our USTA League Section Coordinator, I predicted that the change in the 40s format would result in about a 10% drop in league participation based on less playing opportunity and people protesting the stupidity of the decision. I was primarily concerned with 4.5+, but I would love to see if that predicted number holds true across the board.
schmke
Legend
I will definitely look. In some areas though, there have been recent trends of an increase or decrease in participation, so it may be hard to parse apart if what we see is a continuation of that or what is attributable to the 4-court format.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
It will be difficult .... depending on one's definition of "participation" regardless of regional differences.
Is participation simply signing up for a team ..... OR ..... is participation actually playing the sport?
So ... you would have to parse it down to matches played by individual to get to the "playing the sport" participation component.
If in 2019 the average player at 40+ got 6 matches per season and in 2020 end up with 4 matches per season .... then USTA has decreased participation.
schmke
Legend
Well, then you are throwing in other factors like how many teams there are and how that impacts how many matches a team plays each season too. Lots of ways to slice the data.
OnTheLine
Hall of Fame
Yup ... and the USTA and their policy's impact those factors as well .... and they all lead to either an increase or a decrease in actual playing participation don't you think?
schmke
Legend
Agreed. It will just be hard to specifically say the 4-court format directly resulted in X% change in participation. We can look at trends from say 2017 thru 2020 and if there is a noticeable change to the trend in 2020 conclude that the 4-court format contributed to that of course.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Jack the Hack
Hall of Fame
Good points on the definition of participation. For this case, I was defining it in the only way the USTA cares about... individual sign ups. Thats where they get their money.
My company used to have an internal motto that said "the consumer decides." It's basically another way of saying "the customer is always right." Basically, if we make an inferior product or do something stupid, no matter what the marketing research said or our intent was, the customer will ultimately decide your fate with their dollar.
The people I've communicated with at the USTA are convinced there is merit to this format change and that their survey data showed that this is what people wanted. No matter what arguments I gave to show the flaws in their data or the bad consequences that are going to happen, they were committed to this change. So that's what I ultimately left them with... ok, the customer will decide.
The 40s league is a product and if you are not getting value from it, you don't have to buy it. As mentioned, I was primarily interested in the detrimental effects of the format change to 4.5+, where it is screwing 5.0s and 4.5 singles players. However, the 4 lines and chaos of 2-2 matches makes it even worse for every level. That's why I predicted that at least 10% of customers would choose to stop buying this year. Making the product worse will have consequences, but the ultimate judge is the numbers.
Yeah but... in many places USTA is the only game in town for organized competitive league. So if you want to play league at all, you don't have a choice. Your argument about consumers voting with their wallets works better when there are competitive options available.
It would be interesting to track USTA participation over time in areas that actually have a viable alternative to USTA. Where I am we have Suncoast League which has very robust participation. Compared to USTA, where for the 18+ season now starting there are only two 4.5 teams, three 4.0 teams, and no 3.5 teams at all (on the mens side).
USTA has a monopoly in many places and knows it. So they are not motivated to make changes that benefit players, but rather changes that benefit USTA.
schmke
Legend
I just took a look at my district (Seattle) in PNW to see how the team counts and rostered players look for 2020.
See my blog for details, but the summary is that our team count has been growing but at a declining rate since 2016 (11%, 7%, 4%), but has jumped back up to 8% for 2020. But as of right now, a day before play begins, the rostered player count has dropped 11% while it had been going up similar to the team count in prior years (9%, 8%, 5%).
My hypothesis is that as a result of the 4-court format, there may be a few more teams than there would have been with a 5-court format, but that roster sizes will be smaller and the total and unique rostered players may be less than there would have been with a 5-court format.
With the data thus far, the first part seems supported, team count went up more than the trend and rostered players are a lot less than before, but there may also be a fair number of players procrastinating and just haven't signed up yet. So this probably deserves another look in 4-6 weeks.
What other areas are starting 40+ right away and this analysis could be done for?
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Cindysphinx
G.O.A.T.
Our league will be just five team; last year it was seven.
We'll have five courts until the post-season, when it will drop to four.
We'll have five courts until the post-season, when it will drop to four.
schmke
Legend
And to address this, the number of matches per team went up to 8.79 where it has normally been 8.4-8.5. This is because the addition of some teams changed some subflights from 9 to 10 teams and so these changed from 8 matches to 9 increasing the average.
Note that even with this increase in matches per team, with the loss of the 2-singles court, the playing slots per team dropped from 66.9 to 61.5, or a drop of 8%.
ATX Tennis
Rookie
Also have to take into account the sections/cities that are sticking with 2/3 until playoffs. I definitely think the areas that are doing 1/3 immediately will see fewer players.
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