Pam Shriver comments on Men's game

shawn1122

Professional
So, Pam thinks the men's game has no variety. This is by far the stupidest comment I have ever heard from a tennis commentator. How can she even open her mouth to say this, while watching a women's match in front of her? I mean, everyone knows the women's game is pure baseline bashing, aside from Henin-Hardenne and Mauresmo. How can she even say this ****?
 

alienhamster

Hall of Fame
I'm going to officially change my stance a bit here and say that, YES, the women's game is starting to show more and more variety lately, Sharapova notwithstanding.

But more variety than the men's game overall? I think not. Maybe some day.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I don't agree with most of what Pam Shiver says... never do...

There have been several memorable matches on the men's side of the US Open this year; Agassi vs. Baghdatis, Hewitt vs. Gasquet, Safin vs. Haas, Federer vs. Blake to name a few.

How many memorable matches have their been on the women's side?

None come to my mind...

(In fact, the most memorable female on the court during this US Open seems to be the ball girl that the crowd keeps whistling about.)
 

Backbored

Hall of Fame
That would be Mary Carillo not Pam. She is the one who had this to say about Federer’s loss in Cincinnati

CBS commentator Mary Carillo said she thought Federer didn't mind losing to Andy Murray 7-5, 6-4 in the second round of the Cincinnati Masters on Aug. 16. Carillo said she figured Federer wanted to get extra rest ahead of the U.S. Open, which starts Monday.
For more
http://www.sportsnet.ca/tennis/article.jsp?content=20060824_181138_4816
mary_252_correspondent_page.jpg
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
Backbored said:
That would be Mary Carillo not Pam. She is the one who had this to say about Federer’s loss in Cincinnati

I was starting to wonder about this... I just turned the TV on and it sounded like Carillo, not Shriver, that was commentating. Maybe the OP was referring to something that Shiver said at some other time. In either case, the match I'm watching right now (JHH vs Jankovic) isn't exactly dramatic high level tennis with lots of variety (unless you consider 80 mph double faults and easy unforced errors "interesting variety".)
 

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
backbored is right. it was mary. and she said it in the context of the match in progress, jankovic and hardenne. in the sense that the young jankovic is coming to the net when she can . . . and justine comes to net and knows she must keep improving her net game if she wants to win some more majors.

she went on to say that the men's game lacked variety cos no-one likes to come in, and all the baseliners can be confused for each other. (i'm paraphrasing here). she may have painted the issue with a broad brush . . . but there is some truth to that.

of course, johnny mac didn't help in his defense of the men's tour when he claims the atp has variety by picking (as his examples):
1. federer (who can do what no-one can)
2. nadal (who's game is unlike ANYBODY'S)
3. and roddick (well, he had to pick an american, didn't he? but he picked the guy who most fans see as one of the most one-dimensional players on tour)

if you asked him to pick another three . . . he'd probably stumble.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
skip1969 said:
backbored is right. it was mary. and she said it in the context of the match in progress, jankovic and hardenne. in the sense that the young jankovic is coming to the net when she can . . . and justine comes to net and knows she must keep improving her net game if she wants to win some more majors.

she went on to say that the men's game lacked variety cos no-one likes to come in, and all the baseliners can be confused for each other. (i'm paraphrasing here). she may have painted the issue with a broad brush . . . but there is some truth to that.

of course, johnny mac didn't help in his defense of the men's tour when he claims the atp has variety by picking (as his examples):
1. federer (who can do what no-one can)
2. nadal (who's game is unlike ANYBODY'S)
3. and roddick (well, he had to pick an american, didn't he? but he picked the guy who most fans see as one of the most one-dimensional players on tour)

if you asked him to pick another three . . . he'd probably stumble.

Thanks for the clarification...

I don't really get what Carillo was talking about. It's not like Jankovic serves and volleys (not behind THAT softball serve). According to the match stats, she has approached the net 24 times in 2 sets... and that isn't much more than Nadal did in his last match (39 times in 4 sets).

This match seems like pretty crappy tennis so far...
 

Backbored

Hall of Fame
shawn1122 said:
Yes, you're right. I can't tell the difference between the two.
It’ not your fault that they hardly ever give the names of the announcers, much less show their faces.
 

skip1969

G.O.A.T.
shawn1122 said:
Yes, you're right. I can't tell the difference between the two.
jankovic is the one with the two-hander. hehe

well, i like i said (not that i'm defending mary) at the TIME she made that comment, jankovic was approaching and taking it to justine. she's no serve-volleyer, to be sure. but mary was (i guess) commending her for the effort.

anyway, one match does not give you an impression of EITHER tour. and we talk on this board all the time about the death of serve-and-volley and wanting to see more variety. in the end, her observation was pretty harmless, and i don't think she was trying to make a thing of it. i found johnny mac's answer more funny than anything else, cos he almost validated her point, without wanting to. remind me not to hire him as my defense attorney (if i ever get in trouble with the law. which i'm not. cos i'm not like that . . .) hehe
 

tguru

Rookie
Sorry, but there is zero truth to Mary Cosell's comment. None! And Jim Courier made just as funny a comment the other day, while commentating at Ashe, that there was nothing like being there in person to get an impression of just what these players can do with a tennis ball. He said something like "come on out and get a ticket" to see the "live" action. Let's see, come out and get a nose bleed seat in AA for a great view. AND HE WAS REFERRING SPECIFICALLY TO AA WHEN HE MADE THE COMMENT!
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
I don't know, I think there may be more variety of game on the women's side than the men's. Now it's important to define athleticism versus game style. The men pretty much, from top to bottom, play the academy style of tennis. Blake forced Federer into it last night. So, Federer is not immune even as good as he is. Blake played well enough to keep him off net.

The women, on the other hand, lack the physical strength or presence to completely dominate a court; notice I didn't say opponent but a court. Women then are forced to play a style of tennis which suits them most. And while mindless bashing from the baseline does exist in women's tennis, I think everyone would agree that it is on the mens' side as well.

I personally think there is more variety of game on the women's side than the men's. I think there is more individuality of stroke on the women's side as well.

Now, would I rather watch Davenport/Henin or Nads/Youhzny? Nads/Youhzny. Would I rather watch Sharapova/Anyone or Blake/Federer. Blake/Federer. All that said, the Henin/Mauresmo match would be a great one to watch, probably as entertaining as the mens' side.
 
The womens game is a big collection of nerves, I dont care if it has alot of variety or not(which IMO it doesnt even anymore then the mens). Even though I like Justine she has shown herself to be a cascade of nerves this year, she could have won all 4 slams this year had she stayed strong mentaly(well and minus the illness in Australia, but she still was nervous big time in that final, even aside from the illness). Mauresmo is still a big bundle of nerves, she is much mentaly tougher then she used to be, give her credit for that but still huge problems with nerves. Sharapova might be mentaly tough but boring one-dimensional game. Clijsters admits to wanting to make friends more then win alot of big titles, and seems content with her 1 slam. Serena has made great progress in fitness for only 2 months so hopefully she keeps doing it and is setting the standard for these other women eventualy. Right now mens tennis>womens tennis without a doubt though.

Federer and Nadal set the standard in mental toughness for any of the women to match. I dont mean that to be sexist, there was a time Graf and Seles and Sanchez together would have set a standard for any of the men, minus Sampras, to match in terms of mental toughness.
 

fastdunn

Legend
shawn1122 said:
So, Pam thinks the men's game has no variety. This is by far the stupidest comment I have ever heard from a tennis commentator. How can she even open her mouth to say this, while watching a women's match in front of her? I mean, everyone knows the women's game is pure baseline bashing, aside from Henin-Hardenne and Mauresmo. How can she even say this ****?

Did she actually "mens game has no variety compared to womens game" ?

Or she simply meant current mens game has less variety compared to past ?
 

MaxT

Rookie
shawn1122 said:
So, Pam thinks the men's game has no variety. This is by far the stupidest comment I have ever heard from a tennis commentator. How can she even open her mouth to say this, while watching a women's match in front of her? I mean, everyone knows the women's game is pure baseline bashing, aside from Henin-Hardenne and Mauresmo. How can she even say this ****?

She plays an ugly brand of tennis. She is lucky winning those doubles with Martina.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
shawn1122 said:
So, Pam thinks the men's game has no variety. This is by far the stupidest comment I have ever heard from a tennis commentator. How can she even open her mouth to say this, while watching a women's match in front of her? I mean, everyone knows the women's game is pure baseline bashing, aside from Henin-Hardenne and Mauresmo. How can she even say this ****?


Where have you been all the comentators are stupid, they just say stuff just to be heard, Pam can shut the hell up.

They aren't even watching the game, they are just trying to find their next space where they can say something.

Why can't they just shutup and let us watch?:confused:
 

Backbored

Hall of Fame
jackson vile said:
Where have you been all the comentators are stupid, they just say stuff just to be heard, Pam can shut the hell up.

They aren't even watching the game, they are just trying to find their next space where they can say something.

Why can't they just shutup and let us watch?:confused:
One more time it was Mary Carillo not Pam.
 

tennus

Rookie
Ha ha ! I can remember reading a Hana Mandlokova book and she said much the same thing about Pam's game ! Perhaps the Albatross thinks she was a swan ? :mrgreen:
 

maverick66

Hall of Fame
ive said this a bunch of times women announcers are not working right now. they just dont have the right people. there has got to be a better female commentator out there than what there giving us. also yes mac and courier have said some dumb things but there light years away from what pam and mary have said.
 

tennus

Rookie
Pam's variety in the women's game: World No 4 can only hit a slice serve(well that's not counting double faults):)
 

superman1

Legend
Tracy Austin is the best female commentator. I think you'd have to be a complete moron to say there's no variety in men's tennis. The top 2 players have the most unique styles you'll ever see. Everyone at the top has a unique style. Being at the baseline doesn't automatically make you the same as everyone else.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
The theme of this thread (The theme; not the OP's error on "who said it.") reminds me of last week's commentary. Shriekapova had just finished a match the commentators were "Ooh-ing" and "Ahh-ing" over; where she had served Aces 29% of the time in the match.

The "story" these dopes were giving us was how the above stat was evidence that the WTA Serving Game was "gaining ground" on the ATP's. "Andy Roddick has never served Aces that much in one match!" ... or something like that ... was the hype.

Good grief!!! Shrieky might have an above-average serve among the girls ... but that stat in no way indicates the WTA is "closing the gap" with the ATP. It further demonstrates just the opposite. A WTA player with a "decent" serve is dominating because the Women's Draws at Majors are not worthy of being so large. The WTA doesn't have the depth to support such nonsense. The drop-off in talent after WTA #60 is nutso! Sheesh!!!

Regarding the "Lack of Variety" claim ... I've been saying this about BOTH tours for a few years, now. "Thanks, Nick! Thanks a heap...!"

- KK
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Whether it was Pam or Mary C. who made the ridiculous comment about variety, they both have an agenda - women's rights, thus can't be taken seriously. They're pushing for equality - which is just, plain impossible. Maybe tens (or hundreds) of thousands of years from now women will have evolved and have the reflexes, strength, and handle on their emotions to play the same as men.

I'd love to hear them defend the WNBA. Maybe Pam would say, "Jumping is overrated!"
 

psamp14

Hall of Fame
yeah i thought it was mary carillo who said it....

right now there is federer, nadal, nalbandian, roddick, and hewitt for the men who i see variety in...

the young guns surely have much to show, except a few of them have their fitness problems and stuff like when it goes to a 5th set...baghdatis, berdych, murray, djokovic, monfils, gasquet

definitely a lot of variety within them

in the womens game every top seed literally blows out their opponents in straights like 6-0 6-1, 6-1 6-2, etc...as JHH and sharapova did early in this yr's open...and it was no different when the williams sisters did so back in 2002-2003 and part of 2004...
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
justineheninhoogenbandfan said:
The womens game is a big collection of nerves, I dont care if it has alot of variety or not(which IMO it doesnt even anymore then the mens). Even though I like Justine she has shown herself to be a cascade of nerves this year, she could have won all 4 slams this year had she stayed strong mentaly(well and minus the illness in Australia, but she still was nervous big time in that final, even aside from the illness). Mauresmo is still a big bundle of nerves, she is much mentaly tougher then she used to be, give her credit for that but still huge problems with nerves. Sharapova might be mentaly tough but boring one-dimensional game. Clijsters admits to wanting to make friends more then win alot of big titles, and seems content with her 1 slam. Serena has made great progress in fitness for only 2 months so hopefully she keeps doing it and is setting the standard for these other women eventualy. Right now mens tennis>womens tennis without a doubt though.

Federer and Nadal set the standard in mental toughness for any of the women to match. I dont mean that to be sexist, there was a time Graf and Seles and Sanchez together would have set a standard for any of the men, minus Sampras, to match in terms of mental toughness.

So basically, Davey, you've said that it's a big bundle of nerves even though it's not really because you went on to give reasons and signs of improvement. The question was not nerves, it was variety.

I know that I have a different perspective, but I remember a time when there was great variety in the men's game. I remember a time when S/V players did battle with baseliners. That was a great time in tennis. Today's game resembles little more than a ping pong match with the players standing on the table. Roger Federer is an exception because he can come to net, and for that ability, he's touted as a genius. Federer, as evidenced in his match against Blake, can be driven from the net. He can and does resort to the same tactics as 99% of the ATP when he feels pressure, the notable exception being Taylor Dent.

Today, the men's game is all about working inside out cross court forehands until you can open the court up enough to hit a down the line winner to your opponent's forehand side. You see it in 99% of the matches played. The other night Blake/Federer was an exceptional match. Notice the word excetional, because Blake when under the most pressure, attacked the net relentlessly. The Youhzny/Nads match was great, but it was drama more than tactics or strategy that made it so. Youhzny was zoned, something you don't see often unless you followed tennis in 1984 and watched McEnroe basically go through the year zoned.

To recap, this discussion is about vareity, not athleticism. The men's game has that hands down. The men can hit the ball harder, run faster, and jump higher just like the old PF Flyer commercial promised. They can and do routinely use more of the court. There serves have more direction, spin, and power. However, the women, have more variety of tactic and strategy IMO among the top players than the men. There are baseline juggernauts, but even as you have admitted Henin, Mauresmo and I would add players like Jankovic are moving forward and playing more all court games.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
Rabbit said:
Today, the men's game is all about working inside out cross court forehands until you can open the court up enough to hit a down the line winner to your opponent's forehand side.
Respectfully must disagree. That's not entirely accurate. Actually it's a pretty big exaggeration. There are other strategies being employed by the men. Take Fed's short BH slice, daring an opponent to come in. I also think the men are more likely to go behind their opponent. And I think more men have competent volleying skills, and while they don't plan on attacking the net, they do come in and can put away balls at the net. Hingis is the only woman who I think looks like she is thinking during a point. The rest of the ladies (at least at or near the top) just appear to be bashing or waiting for an error by their opponent.

I do agree that how one defines 'variety' influences one's opinion.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
West Coast Ace said:
Respectfully must disagree. That's not entirely accurate. Actually it's a pretty big exaggeration. There are other strategies being employed by the men. Take Fed's short BH slice, daring an opponent to come in. I also think the men are more likely to go behind their opponent. And I think more men have competent volleying skills, and while they don't plan on attacking the net, they do come in and can put away balls at the net. Hingis is the only woman who I think looks like she is thinking during a point. The rest of the ladies (at least at or near the top) just appear to be bashing or waiting for an error by their opponent.

I do agree that how one defines 'variety' influences one's opinion.

I'll accept the friendly amendment and note that it applies to one player. :)
 
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