Paradigm breakthrough on groundstrokes (Aim 6 ft. above the net)

[TimeToPlaySets]

Since I've never seen good players play (TV doesn't count), today I finally redefined my entire lifelong perception of what a good tennis shot is. My old perception was that a low speeding bullet with massive wristy topspin that barely clears the net and lands at service line.... that was the ideal bad-ass shot. In reality, this is a useless shot that is waist high for your opponent and simple to hit back.

The new mindset that has been drilled into me by my coach is that the ideal shot is a much slower high arcing mildly spinning shot...that lands at the baseline. Almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot) that lands at baseline....that is the ideal shot. Relaxed and controlled. And probably lower UE rate.

For some reason, I was always focusing on the swing itself (relax, low to high, takeback, unit turn, high follow through, etc) But, aiming 6 ft. over the net just made a lot of it automatic. So, yea, it finally clicked. I know I must think....hit high over the net. That will land the ball deep. I will muscle it less. Don't get me wrong, many balls still land in the net, or end up wristy shots that land shot.....and let's face it, this was all nice easy feeds. But it's a step in the right direction, since my coach knows how to play winning tennis.

 

[FiReFTW]

Depends on the situation, just like in the ATP, ul see very different shots depending on different situations, you cant just say 1 shot is the right thing for every situation and superior to every other.

 

[mad dog1]

Depends on the situation, just like in the ATP, ul see very different shots depending on different situations, you cant just say 1 shot is the right thing for every situation and superior to every other.

Please let this one concept sink in for ttps first before introducing more factors that only serve to complicate things.

 

[mad dog1]

Since I've never seen good players play (TV doesn't count), today I finally redefined my entire lifelong perception of what a good tennis shot is. My old perception was that a low speeding bullet with massive wristy topspin that barely clears the net and lands at service line.... that was the ideal bad-ass shot. In reality, this is a useless shot that is waist high for your opponent and simple to hit back.

The new mindset that has been drilled into me by my coach is that the ideal shot is a much slower high arcing mildly spinning shot...that lands at the baseline. Almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot) that lands at baseline....that is the ideal shot. Relaxed and controlled. And probably lower UE rate.

For some reason, I was always focusing on the swing itself (relax, low to high, takeback, unit turn, high follow through, etc) But, aiming 6 ft. over the net just made a lot of it automatic. So, yea, it finally clicked. I know I must think....hit high over the net. That will land the ball deep. I will muscle it less. Don't get me wrong, many balls still land in the net, or end up wristy shots that land shot.....and let's face it, this was all nice easy feeds. But it's a step in the right direction, since my coach knows how to play winning tennis.

So perhaps all the members who you accused of not knowing anything about tennis actually know more about tennis than you after all.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I'm pretty sure I and several others suggested exactly this when you wrote that you kept hitting into the net. But, as seems to be your MO, you ignore or reject advice until you are ready to accept it.

An introspective person would take this tendency into account.

In any case, good on ya (and your coach) for the breakthrough. That alone combined with the work on your serve will take you to the next level.

 

[PittsburghDad]

If you hit a ball six feet over the net "mildly spinning" its either in the back fence or weak as ####. I'm not sure you're grasping the concept. Again.
Great troll work though. I'm entertained.

 

[mad dog1]

I'm pretty sure I and several others suggested exactly this when you wrote that you kept hitting into the net. But, as seems to be your MO, you ignore or reject advice until you are ready to accept it.

An introspective person would take this tendency into account.

In any case, good on ya (and your coach) for the breakthrough. That alone combined with the work on your serve will take you to the next level.

If you hit a ball six feet over the net "mildly spinning" its either in the back fence or weak as ####. I'm not sure you're grasping the concept. Again.
Great troll work though. I'm entertained.

What do you guys know about tennis anyways!

 

[PittsburghDad]

Since I've never seen good players play (TV doesn't count), today I finally redefined my entire lifelong perception of what a good tennis shot is. My old perception was that a low speeding bullet with massive wristy topspin that barely clears the net and lands at service line.... that was the ideal bad-ass shot. In reality, this is a useless shot that is waist high for your opponent and simple to hit back.

The new mindset that has been drilled into me by my coach is that the ideal shot is a much slower high arcing mildly spinning shot...that lands at the baseline. Almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot) that lands at baseline....that is the ideal shot. Relaxed and controlled. And probably lower UE rate.

For some reason, I was always focusing on the swing itself (relax, low to high, takeback, unit turn, high follow through, etc) But, aiming 6 ft. over the net just made a lot of it automatic. So, yea, it finally clicked. I know I must think....hit high over the net. That will land the ball deep. I will muscle it less. Don't get me wrong, many balls still land in the net, or end up wristy shots that land shot.....and let's face it, this was all nice easy feeds. But it's a step in the right direction, since my coach knows how to play winning tennis.

Bro, you wouldn't know automatic on a tennis court if it strung your racket for you. Spazzing out on some forehands, (nice vids), and flooding a MB don't scream automatic. Go put in some work. Maybe five years from now you might sniff automatic on a tennis court.
Great troll work though. I'm still entertained.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

What do you guys know about tennis anyways!

Just enough to get me in trouble, apparently! I mean, look at the "catch/hold /absorb" thread with collo: I lost track of how many times i was insulted. Now THAT was entertaining!

 

[mcs1970]

Since I've never seen good players play (TV doesn't count)

First of all I've no idea why TV doesn't count. What's the difference between that and watching youtube and learning something new?

Anyway, weren't you the same guy who made a video hitting 10 straight balls intentionally into the net a couple of days ago to prove that topspin doesn't work. Yet now 48 hours later your coach has told you to aim 6 ft higher than the net, and it clicked for you? Also, calling a top spin shot as an "almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot)"....I don't think you're still getting it.

 

[Sentinel]

But it's a step in the right direction, since my coach knows how to play winning tennis.

You are obviously being coached by suresh, so who are we to doubt his sage advice.

 

[donquijote]

You are obviously being coached by suresh, so who are we to doubt his sage advice.

Sounds more like uncle Toni. Suresh would advice him his signature A S S serve technique.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

You are obviously being coached by suresh, so who are we to doubt his sausage advice.

*ai sorry*

Self repoarted for indecency involving suggestive edits regarding processed meats.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

First of all I've no idea why TV doesn't count. What's the difference between that and watching youtube and learning something new?

Anyway, weren't you the same guy who made a video hitting 10 straight balls intentionally into the net a couple of days ago to prove that topspin doesn't work. Yet now 48 hours later your coach has told you to aim 6 ft higher than the net, and it clicked for you? Also, calling a top spin shot as an "almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot)"....I don't think you're still getting it.

TV does not count since you have no idea of the pace. On TV, you hear guys grunting. This brainwashes 3.5 players into thinking they have to hit as hard as they possibly can. This is directly opposite to what I am doing, at least for now. I am now hitting the ball at around 60%. The ball is going slow, much slower than I am used to. I have redefined my entire concept of a "good" tennis shot. Depth beats speed.

Also you have no sense of the height of the ball on TV. I am hitting way higher than ever in my life. Like I said, these groundstrokes are almost lobs that land in the corner. Complete paradigm shift.

Best of all, by casually hitting the ball back, I am barely breaking a sweat now, and will be able to groove this 7 evenings a week all summer. When I hit as hard as I could, I'd need to take 2-3 days off between playing!

As for the video, yes, topspin makes the ball go into the net. And I proved it. Not sure why you are still discussing that. I am hitting these new quasi-lobs groundies with about 1/3 of the topspin as those net shots. I am using much less topspin, much less RHS, and the ball is clearing the net by a wide margin. As the video showed, extreme topspin RPM goes directly into the net. If it clear the net, it will just land short. Useless. On these new mini-lobs, the ball might roll over 5 times during its path. I consider that barely topspin. In contrast, my extreme wristy topspin almost distorts the ball. Rolls over dozens of times during flight. That means net.

Lastly, PittsDad is an idiot.

 

[Tiaxx]

As for the video, yes, topspin makes the ball go into the net.

Guess all the pro's have it all wrong going by your statement?
Topspin makes the ball go into the net?!?!?! Really guy?

Weak troll. 1/10!

 

[PittsburghDad]

Guess all the pro's have it all wrong going by your statement?
Topspin makes the ball go into the net?!?!?! Really guy?

Weak troll. 1/10!

His troll game used to be solid. All good things come to an end.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I'm pretty sure I and several others suggested exactly this when you wrote that you kept hitting into the net. But, as seems to be your MO, you ignore or reject advice until you are ready to accept it.

An introspective person would take this tendency into account.

In any case, good on ya (and your coach) for the breakthrough. That alone combined with the work on your serve will take you to the next level.

when the student is ready the reacher will appear

 

[mcs1970]

TV does not count since you have no idea of the pace. On TV, you hear guys grunting. This brainwashes 3.5 players into thinking they have to hit as hard as they possibly can. This is directly opposite to what I am doing, at least for now. I am now hitting the ball at around 60%. The ball is going slow, much slower than I am used to. I have redefined my entire concept of a "good" tennis shot. Depth beats speed.

Also you have no sense of the height of the ball on TV. I am hitting way higher than ever in my life. Like I said, these groundstrokes are almost lobs that land in the corner. Complete paradigm shift.

Best of all, by casually hitting the ball back, I am barely breaking a sweat now, and will be able to groove this 7 evenings a week all summer. When I hit as hard as I could, I'd need to take 2-3 days off between playing!

As for the video, yes, topspin makes the ball go into the net. And I proved it. Not sure why you are still discussing that. I am hitting these new quasi-lobs groundies with about 1/3 of the topspin as those net shots. I am using much less topspin, much less RHS, and the ball is clearing the net by a wide margin. As the video showed, extreme topspin RPM goes directly into the net. If it clear the net, it will just land short. Useless. On these new mini-lobs, the ball might roll over 5 times during its path. I consider that barely topspin. In contrast, my extreme wristy topspin almost distorts the ball. Rolls over dozens of times during flight. That means net.

Lastly, PittsDad is an idiot.

So basically you've become a slow moonball pusher. You used to tout how no one can become a 5.0 without coaching. Did you really need to spend all that money and time on coaching if your goal was to end up this way?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I hear you. You make an interesting point.

Is not exactly a moon ball, but a very high arcing shot...and maybe I'll increase pace and RHS eventually? All I know right now is that depth is King, period. And I agree.

Let's Face it ...winning tennis is pusher tennis, at least under 4.0, that much is undeniable. Most 3.5 who aren't pusher can't keep the ball in play. They destroy the ball at any chance.

So maybe there is an inverted curve. 3.0 and 3.5 swing as hard as they can, and lose. 5.0+ swing hard, but get it in. Maybe the middle ground of winning is the high Arc moon ball tennis.

My coach plays college tennis and has wiped up the entire local 5.0 league, so clearly he knows that's up

 

[ChaelAZ]

I have never thought about aiming anywhere in relation to the net, but thinking about it I position myself and the ball strike based on where I want the ball to drop depth wise, or even thinking about pace/height.

 

[sureshs]

Since I've never seen good players play (TV doesn't count), today I finally redefined my entire lifelong perception of what a good tennis shot is. My old perception was that a low speeding bullet with massive wristy topspin that barely clears the net and lands at service line.... that was the ideal bad-ass shot. In reality, this is a useless shot that is waist high for your opponent and simple to hit back.

The new mindset that has been drilled into me by my coach is that the ideal shot is a much slower high arcing mildly spinning shot...that lands at the baseline. Almost a pseudo-lob (a real ***** pusher looking shot) that lands at baseline....that is the ideal shot. Relaxed and controlled. And probably lower UE rate.

For some reason, I was always focusing on the swing itself (relax, low to high, takeback, unit turn, high follow through, etc) But, aiming 6 ft. over the net just made a lot of it automatic. So, yea, it finally clicked. I know I must think....hit high over the net. That will land the ball deep. I will muscle it less. Don't get me wrong, many balls still land in the net, or end up wristy shots that land shot.....and let's face it, this was all nice easy feeds. But it's a step in the right direction, since my coach knows how to play winning tennis.

Doesn't work in doubles

 

[mcs1970]

I hear you. Is not exactly a moon ball, and maybe I'll increase pace and RHS eventually.

But winning tennis is pusher tennis, at least under 4.0, that much is undeniable. So there is some weird inverted curve. 3.0 and 3.5 seeing as hard as they can, and lose. 5.0+ swing hard but get it in. Maybe The middle ground winning seems to be high Arc moon ball tennis.

I think the key difference between players like us and 5.0s is not that they swing hard, but that they swing fast. It's more about the rhs...fast swing with a very loose, relaxed grip. Players like us tend to arm the ball much more because we see the pace and mistakenly think that they are swinging hard. Even the grunt...folks here have explained how that is used a lot for letting out the pressure, and is more a breath control thing to not get tight than an indication that someone is straining to hit the ball hard.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Moonballing is effective. As is the general theory of, "Hit it as hard and heavy as you can, so long as you can hit with depth and consistency." If ten foot high mini lobs are it for now, so be it. You can always add pace and spin as you progress.

I'm gonna tentatively call this a win for his development. Like it or hate it, at least it's an ethos.

 

[5263]

topspin makes the ball go into the net. And I proved it. Not sure why you are still discussing that. I am hitting these new quasi-lobs groundies with about 1/3 of the topspin as those net shots. I am using much less topspin, much less RHS, and the ball is clearing the net by a wide margin. As the video showed, extreme topspin RPM goes directly into the net. If it clear the net, it will just land short.

Maybe you are not ready for this, but no, RHS should not be slow but should instead be higher with higher rpms for hitting higher net clearance. You should be hitting hard enough that it takes big TS just to keep the ball in the court and the net should be well out of the equation. Big TS goes with a big ball to keep it in.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I will post a video of my lower topspin higher Arc grounders later this week. That might clear up some. You can compare that to my high RHS/RPM topspin video from the other day

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Doesn't work in doubles

Great point. I was thinking about this while commuting to work!

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Maybe you are not ready for this, but no, RHS should not be slow but should instead be higher with higher rpms for hitting higher net clearance. You should be hitting hard enough that it takes big TS just to keep the ball in the court and the net should be well out of the equation. Big TS goes with a big ball to keep it in.

generally agree,
but i'd advocate slow swing speed during the development phase (which he's in)...
ie. if he's learning a slightly new grip, and say he used to be a "fh slapper", and is now learning "pat the dog", racquet head drop, etc... you need to swing slow in the beginning to make sure you getting the swing "in the slot"... otherwise what i see, is folks reverting back to their old swing when you ask them to swing fast.

heck, when switched from hawaiian to semi-western, i did alot of slow swinging on the wall, shadow swinging, mini tennis, slow paced rallies, etc... but for sure, everything now is fast fast fast (but my technique is ingrained)

did the same this year, practicing the racquet head drop on my bh (before it was less pronounced)... similiarly when i tried to speed it up before i was ready, i'd revert to a swing that had less drop (still a decent shot, but not what i was aiming for).

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Doesn't work in doubles

baby steps.
this is just one more tool that he's adding to his toolbox.
and it certainly works against guys who prefer to stay 2 back, or situations where you end up 2 back.

 

[5263]

generally agree,
but i'd advocate slow swing speed during the development phase (which he's in)...
ie. if he's learning a slightly new grip, and say he used to be a "fh slapper", and is now learning "pat the dog", racquet head drop, etc... you need to swing slow in the beginning to make sure you getting the swing "in the slot"... otherwise what i see, is folks reverting back to their old swing when you ask them to swing fast.

heck, when switched from hawaiian to semi-western, i did alot of slow swinging on the wall, shadow swinging, mini tennis, slow paced rallies, etc... but for sure, everything now is fast fast fast (but my technique is ingrained)

did the same this year, practicing the racquet head drop on my bh (before it was less pronounced)... similiarly when i tried to speed it up before i was ready, i'd revert to a swing that had less drop (still a decent shot, but not what i was aiming for).

I agree, but I'm commenting on the direction this should go. He may get that, but his post didn't seem to realize it. I also base this on what I see working with players when they hit higher over the net. They do exactly what he described, slow the swing and create less topspin, which in turn, nullifies the whole intent of what they are looking to accomplish.

 

[sureshs]

Great point. I was thinking about this while commuting to work!

Pay attention to the traffic when you are driving

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

If it's high enough, it may cause errors for poachers in doubles as they slam the ball to the back curtain

 

[PittsburghDad]

I will post a video of my lower topspin higher Arc grounders later this week. That might clear up some. You can compare that to my high RHS/RPM topspin video from the other day

I watched your vids. They are definitely not high RHS or high RPM. Just so we are all on the same page.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

And yes, addict is right as usual. This is a transition where the coach says pace is the easiest thing to add later. Get the form down. But I'll say, even at this pace, it's harder to return a high bouncing ball at the baseline. For anyone. And it makes them use energy to reposition. If they don't, good chance they mess up the return. Or hit it short and that's when approach volley game come into play.

 

[2HBH-DTL]

I'm definitely not aiming 6ft above the net, more like ~18 inches only.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I'm definitely not aiming 6ft above the net, more like ~18 inches only.

You, Lendl, and Joachim Johanssom.

Sabatini, Kent Carlsson, and TimeToMoonball aim higher.

Different strokes for different folks, as it were.

 

[meltphace 6]

Welcome to the world of trajectories, TTPS! Yeah, Tennis ain't Pong.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Hey, moon balling won Chang an obscure clay tournament

 

[bitcoinoperated]

the ideal shot is a much slower high arcing mildly spinning shot...that lands at the baseline.

While yes, the low net-skimmer is a fallacy it seems you are now deciding to play like a pusher.

 

[mcs1970]

Hey, moon balling won Chang an obscure clay tournament

I'm not saying it's wrong playing that style. Just found it interesting that you blasted many of us who don't take much coaching saying that we were destined to be 3.0 players who would just forever be hitting slow moonballs, and now after spending all that time and money getting expert coaching, you're the one advocating hitting moonballs.

 

[mcs1970]

generally agree,
but i'd advocate slow swing speed during the development phase (which he's in)...
ie. if he's learning a slightly new grip, and say he used to be a "fh slapper", and is now learning "pat the dog", racquet head drop, etc... you need to swing slow in the beginning to make sure you getting the swing "in the slot"... otherwise what i see, is folks reverting back to their old swing when you ask them to swing fast.

heck, when switched from hawaiian to semi-western, i did alot of slow swinging on the wall, shadow swinging, mini tennis, slow paced rallies, etc... but for sure, everything now is fast fast fast (but my technique is ingrained)

did the same this year, practicing the racquet head drop on my bh (before it was less pronounced)... similiarly when i tried to speed it up before i was ready, i'd revert to a swing that had less drop (still a decent shot, but not what i was aiming for).

nyta...Did the slow->fast approach work for you because you already had tremendous rhs before you decided to change your stroke and you could go back to it once you developed your new stroke? The reason I'm asking is that I've heard two approaches. One is what you're saying. The other is asking the student to hit as hard as they can (be it serve or topspin strokes) , getting used to the rhs and pace, and then slowly fine tuning the strokes to get more control.

 

[SinjinCooper]

nyta...Did the slow->fast approach work for you because you already had tremendous rhs before you decided to change your stroke and you could go back to it once you developed your new stroke? The reason I'm asking is that I've heard two approaches. One is what you're saying. The other is asking the student to hit as hard as they can (be it serve or topspin strokes) , getting used to the rhs and pace, and then slowly fine tuning the strokes to get more control.

I feel the first methodology tends to be better geared toward slow, steady improvement that doesn't compromise results during the process.

The second is better suited to rapid improvement, so long as you're willing to sacrifice results in the meantime.

Of course, those won't be true for all students and players, but the trend is strong. And which is "right" depends entirely on the player.

 

[LeeD]

6' above the net is a total of 9' high as the ball crosses the net.
I"ve seen some topspin hitter's go there, like Nadal, and a few other's, but the most impressive hitting I"ve seen is the Monfils vs Dolgopolov hitting video of Monaco, hitting hard, deep, FLATTISH shots with lots of depth and low net clearance.
With supreme fitness, you can hit heavy loopy topspin shots to sustain 25 shot rallies, and tire out your opponent....and yourself.
OR, you can go the Berdyk/DelPo route, hit low, hit hard, hit deep, and hit into the corner's to WIN the point before both of you get tired from sustaining a long rally.
OR, you can go a combination of the two, hitting high softer rally balls, then going for low screaming meenie winners when the situation presents itself.

 

[2HBH-DTL]

OR, you can go the Berdyk/DelPo route, hit low, hit hard, hit deep, and hit into the corner's to WIN the point before both of you get tired from sustaining a long rally.

that's typically the route i go to everytime i play.

 

[LeeD]

I have no fitness whatsoever, so playing a game of attrition is not to my best interests.
Besides, if I lose quickly enough, the other guy has no idea whether or not I can actually play tennis, so I can get a rematch easily enough.

 

[FiReFTW]

6' above the net is a total of 9' high as the ball crosses the net.
I"ve seen some topspin hitter's go there, like Nadal, and a few other's, but the most impressive hitting I"ve seen is the Monfils vs Dolgopolov hitting video of Monaco, hitting hard, deep, FLATTISH shots with lots of depth and low net clearance.
With supreme fitness, you can hit heavy loopy topspin shots to sustain 25 shot rallies, and tire out your opponent....and yourself.
OR, you can go the Berdyk/DelPo route, hit low, hit hard, hit deep, and hit into the corner's to WIN the point before both of you get tired from sustaining a long rally.
OR, you can go a combination of the two, hitting high softer rally balls, then going for low screaming meenie winners when the situation presents itself.

Great post.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

nyta...Did the slow->fast approach work for you because you already had tremendous rhs before you decided to change your stroke and you could go back to it once you developed your new stroke? The reason I'm asking is that I've heard two approaches. One is what you're saying. The other is asking the student to hit as hard as they can (be it serve or topspin strokes) , getting used to the rhs and pace, and then slowly fine tuning the strokes to get more control.

i learned the fast way..

but either works... the way i learn anything:
* understand the concepts (grip, low to high, closed face, etc...)
* start slow at first (until i'm sure i'm getting it right, and learned the cues/feeling)
* speed up (ie. swing slow, medium, as fast as i can... experiment), see where i'm making mistakes
* add element/concept to fix mistakes
* start slow at first
* speed up
* etc,...
but i'm also more analytical, trying to understand why a specific change helps/hurts.

but for most (who are not analytical or can't self evaluate), i just say, aim for the backfence... then let's figure out how to get the ball back down again with the same swing.

swinging fast (against say a drop feed) gives you immediate feedback..
* first you need to clear the net - aiming say 3-6 feet (low to high)
* then you need to bring it back down (close face)

 

[samarai]

so now you ve become a moonballer. Great u will become the best pusher this planet ever produced.

 

[AllCourtHeathen]

so now you ve become a moonballer. Great u will become the best pusher this planet ever produced.

No.
He must defeat Ultron to become Earth's greatest pusher.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

so now you ve become a moonballer. Great u will become the best pusher this planet ever produced.

from "pusher" with bunty push strokes to moonballer that hits topspin with slower full strokes, is a huge step in the right direction.

later on they gain confidence to trust the topspin and their stroke, and start hitting out

 

[Chadillac]

I watched your vids. They are definitely not high RHS or high RPM. Just so we are all on the same page.

More rpm's than your feeds...