Consistency breakthrough. How to return a high deep ball.

[TimeToPlaySets]

I was finally taught how to hit a defensive ball.
Normally, when pushed back by a high deep ball, I would try to hit it like every other groundstroke.
Result was many shorts hitting the back curtain. Often, a line drive barely clearing the net.
Just hitting it too flat. Low percentage shot.

I really focused on swinging low to high, and just brushing it up,
and just giving topspin lob that lands deep.
The ball is really arcing. Clears the net by a mile.

It's a lazy casual topspin lob (not a bunted or blocked lob)
There is topspin. Like the whole shot is topspin.
It's not forced, and it's under a control. HIGH PERCENTAGE SHOT.

It just seems to natural to return a high ball back as a high ball.
Like you're not redirecting it or something.

I LOVE THIS SHOT.
Keeps you in the point, and there is no way anyone is hitting that back for a winner.

The last example is just what I am talking about.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

Good to hear. [emoji4]

Are you swinging slower? is your take back shorter? Are your shoulders more open or closed at contact?

I'm just trying to picture what is physically happening that gets the better result for you!

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I added a video above.

I think being neutral/closed is important, but do not know why.
I think it's easier to swing upwards and not launch it long when sideways.
When open, it's harder to get topspin, so you hit it flat and launch it into the curtain.

 

[WisconsinPlayer]

I added a video above.

I think being neutral/closed is important, but do not know why.
I think it's easier to swing upwards and not launch it long when sideways.
When open, it's harder to get topspin, so you hit it flat and launch it into the curtain.

In the video if youre in the red, in the second point it looked like a pretty open stance. And the guy who missed it long was closed

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

I added a video above.

I think being neutral/closed is important, but do not know why.
I think it's easier to swing upwards and not launch it long when sideways.
When open, it's harder to get topspin, so you hit it flat and launch it into the curtain.

Ok, so it's a slow, closed, L2H swing. The contact point is near waist b/c you let the ball drop a good bit.

I have to differ with you that this was a "deep" shot that you were returning. In fact, the opponent hit a shortish floater that likely could have been taken as an overhead either in the air or off the bounce. In fact, the other guy moved back of the net b/c he was likely even expecting a harder shot.

This technique is more suited for singles play. In doubles, the up guy will start picking it off if he knows to look for it.

I think closed stance and slow swing is good and swing path, but maybe do a little "seesaw" action with you front shoulder starting higher and then dropping as your back shoulder rises. This will allow you to take the ball a little earlier and higher, resulting in more drive on the ball.

Just putting that out there.

 

[bigservesofthands]

Here is what I do when I am playing with people who don't like pace. Let the ball drop and then hit a high lob into open court which then bounces over the back curtain for an un-returnable winner if the returner cannot get to the base of the ball in time to get an overhead or lets it drop deliberately. Even if they take it as an overhead it is a low percentage shot. It just takes off vertically if allowed to bounce from the excessive top spin. An offensive winner which does not scare anybody! You need to brush up low with very high RHS though

Ross Duncan the former South African ATP pro player and now the head coach at the Nike Adult Tennis Camp was very impressed with it when I got it to over the chain link fence multiple times in point play. Said he never saw anything like it.

 

[GuyClinch]

^^^Pretty tough to hit that shot off your generic 4.5 who can crank a forehand..

 

[bigservesofthands]

^^^Pretty tough to hit that shot off your generic 4.5 who can crank a forehand..

Yes it is has to be selectively used at higher levels and well placed. The general instinct is to let it drop and take it as an overhead. It climbs steeply and you have people jumping near the back fence trying catch the ball and look silly. The only good counter is to take it as a half volley and you need good foot speed and anticipation to run backwards and around the ball and then set yourself up to take it close to the ground and then control it to get it back in the court. I never do it right to a high level player. Only when they are out of position. I have made 5.0 and 5.5 players look silly with this shot when they charge the net. It is especially effective in bubble courts where I get it to follow the curve of the bubble and there is not much head room in the back and you get people smacking the bubble in frustration. I have had only one person effectively counter it when it is well placed and the returner has to run atleast 4 or 5 steps and then change direction. It was a newly graduated college player who got a job and recently joined Nike. He has some wheels!

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

That is the same basic idea. However, I was presenting the idea more as a defensive shot, rather than an offensive one.
To correct my title, it is really for high balls, not necessarily deep ones, as in the video.
It seems harder to redirect high bounce balls into a straight line, and seems more natural to just "lob" it back

 

[2HBH-DTL]

great plays against djokovic!

 

[mcs1970]

I never do it right to a high level player. Only when they are out of position. I have made 5.0 and 5.5 players look silly with this shot when they charge the net.

C'mon man.

 

[TennisCJC]

Here is what I do when I am playing with people who don't like pace. Let the ball drop and then hit a high lob into open court which then bounces over the back curtain for an un-returnable winner if the returner cannot get to the base of the ball in time to get an overhead or lets it drop deliberately. Even if they take it as an overhead it is a low percentage shot. It just takes off vertically if allowed to bounce from the excessive top spin. An offensive winner which does not scare anybody! You need to brush up low with very high RHS though

Ross Duncan the former South African ATP pro player and now the head coach at the Nike Adult Tennis Camp was very impressed with it when I got it to over the chain link fence multiple times in point play. Said he never saw anything like it.

I disagree that this is a good approach to handle high balls. You are practicing a topspin lob and typically the best time to hit a topspin lob is when your contact point is relatively low meaning well below the arm pits. Also, a topspin lob is very situational and becomes more difficult if you opponent hits a good ground stroke or approach shot.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I disagree that this is a good approach to handle high balls. You are practicing a topspin lob and typically the best time to hit a topspin lob is when your contact point is relatively low meaning well below the arm pits. Also, a topspin lob is very situational and becomes more difficult if you opponent hits a good ground stroke or approach shot.

There's a reason he's hand feeding it to himself instead of making a fool of his typical ATP level pigeons.

 

[TennisCJC]

TTPSets, the video looks like your contact point wasn't that high. Rather it looks like you let it drop and played a topspin groundstroke back with plenty of net clearance. Your stroke looks fine and it can be effective if hit with depth and spin. If you get it deep enough, you can actually follow it to net and use it as an approach shot in doubles.

For times when you are forced to make contact at your arm pits or higher, my keys are get a little more spacing between my body and the contact and hit up and a little more across through contact. I also try to hit this ball back with good height over the net if I am pushed deep or if the ball is kicking up with pace. It is very easy to smoother the high contact and hit it too low which results in a short shot or an error into the net so I try to drive it back high over the net. If I am making high contact but the ball is softer and/or shorter, I will try to drive it lower with a bit more pace. keys for me: more spacing, up and ACROSS swing path and get good net clearance on high deep balls.

 

[Doc Hollidae]

I was finally taught how to hit a defensive ball.
Normally, when pushed back by a high deep ball, I would try to hit it like every other groundstroke.
Result was many shorts hitting the back curtain. Often, a line drive barely clearing the net.
Just hitting it too flat. Low percentage shot.

I really focused on swinging low to high, and just brushing it up,
and just giving topspin lob that lands deep.
The ball is really arcing. Clears the net by a mile.

It's a lazy casual topspin lob (not a bunted or blocked lob)
There is topspin. Like the whole shot is topspin.
It's not forced, and it's under a control. HIGH PERCENTAGE SHOT.

It just seems to natural to return a high ball back as a high ball.
Like you're not redirecting it or something.

I LOVE THIS SHOT.
Keeps you in the point, and there is no way anyone is hitting that back for a winner.

I love the format you post in. It's like reading a Haiku.

 

[LeeD]

You can.....
Slice it hard down and angled, using a high volley form technique.
Lob it back.
Pull a Vilas, man up, and hit it hard with topspin.
Get totally sideways, rip through the ball, even if it's over your head, flat and CC mostly.
Drop shot it, using high volley drop technique, to end the high ball dead end.
Bend your knees and hit a overhead or hard slice.

 

[GuyClinch]

I disagree that this is a good approach to handle high balls. You are practicing a topspin lob and typically the best time to hit a topspin lob is when your contact point is relatively low meaning well below the arm pits. Also, a topspin lob is very situational and becomes more difficult if you opponent hits a good ground stroke or approach shot.

Agree. Problem with the super topspin shot is simply that very good players can hit high bouncing shots that still have decent forward pace. So it becomes very difficult to time a extreme upward racquet path.

It's going to work well for some slow incoming high balls - which is what bigservehandssofthands is talking about it - so its fine. Let's not get too sidetracked..

My shot - and I will admit maybe its not the best is to swing up and across but still with some forward against the higher bouncing balls that have some pace.. You have to swing somewhat aggressively though or it will go short.. Major difference really is the across path. I don't normally hit that across on a regular rally ball..

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I added 2 more from the last time I played.
The last example is just what I am talking about.

 

[samarai]

your opponents are standing in no mans land. no need to lob it.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

No, they are not. In all 4 shots, the cross court guy is behind the baseline.

Regardless, you're missing the point of this thread
Doesn't matter where they stand if you blast the ball over the back curtain.
This is a high percentage defensive shot to keep a maniac overhitting 3.5 in the point.

 

[GuyClinch]

This is a high percentage defensive shot to keep a maniac overhitting 3.5 in the point.

Actually, it's the go-to strategy of ladies 40+ 6.0 doubles (3.0/3.0).

 

[Topspin Shot]

Yes it is has to be selectively used at higher levels and well placed. The general instinct is to let it drop and take it as an overhead. It climbs steeply and you have people jumping near the back fence trying catch the ball and look silly. The only good counter is to take it as a half volley and you need good foot speed and anticipation to run backwards and around the ball and then set yourself up to take it close to the ground and then control it to get it back in the court. I never do it right to a high level player. Only when they are out of position. I have made 5.0 and 5.5 players look silly with this shot when they charge the net. It is especially effective in bubble courts where I get it to follow the curve of the bubble and there is not much head room in the back and you get people smacking the bubble in frustration. I have had only one person effectively counter it when it is well placed and the returner has to run atleast 4 or 5 steps and then change direction. It was a newly graduated college player who got a job and recently joined Nike. He has some wheels!

Or just take it on the rise, no half volleys necessary.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I was finally taught how to hit a defensive ball.
Normally, when pushed back by a high deep ball, I would try to hit it like every other groundstroke.
Result was many shorts hitting the back curtain. Often, a line drive barely clearing the net.
Just hitting it too flat. Low percentage shot.

I really focused on swinging low to high, and just brushing it up,
and just giving topspin lob that lands deep.
The ball is really arcing. Clears the net by a mile.

It's a lazy casual topspin lob (not a bunted or blocked lob)
There is topspin. Like the whole shot is topspin.
It's not forced, and it's under a control. HIGH PERCENTAGE SHOT.

It just seems to natural to return a high ball back as a high ball.
Like you're not redirecting it or something.

I LOVE THIS SHOT.
Keeps you in the point, and there is no way anyone is hitting that back for a winner.

The last example is just what I am talking about.

It's a decent shot against anyone, as long as you don't leave it short. It won't bother an advanced player, but you can drive intermediates crazy if you're consistent with it.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Again, it's a defensive shot meant to keep you from slamming the ball into the back curtain.

Actually, it's the go-to strategy of ladies 40+ 6.0 doubles (3.0/3.0).

Very nice, because the #1 way to beat any 3.5 is to simply bunt the ball back, and let them smash the ball into the back curtain.
A typical 3.5 male can't keep a point going more than 2 shots before going ape **** and pulverizing the ball into the net or over the fence.


https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/is-it-possible-to-pusher-into-4-0.580573/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...e-solution-to-beating-pushers-forever.583119/

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Good shot to have in your arsenal.

Do you always serve that close to the center mark in doubles, particularly on the deuce side? Would think that some of the better 3.5 returners might be able to hurt you with a quick sharp angle to your BH side. Or do they all have a problem with your lefty serve on that side?

 

[GuyClinch]

Very nice, because the #1 way to beat any 3.5 is to simply bunt the ball back, and let them smash the ball into the back curtain.
A typical 3.5 male can't keep a point going more than 2 shots before going ape **** and pulverizing the ball into the net or over the fence.

Not in the leagues around here.. Do you play in a 3.5 league? Cause I don't think you do. 3.5 is just anyone that beats all 3.0s easily. There is no set type.. Some have great shot tolerance - some have strong serves - some bunt everything back..

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Do you always serve that close to the center mark in doubles, particularly on the deuce side? Would think that some of the better 3.5 returners might be able to hurt you with a quick sharp angle to your BH side. Or do they all have a problem with your lefty serve on that side?

I have not given much thought to standing location.
They have enough trouble returning that I have not been left exposed.
It is rare they can pinpoint where they return it.
Many times, they can not hit it in, even 2nd serves.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I have not given much thought to standing location.
They have enough trouble returning that I have not been left exposed.
It is rare they can pinpoint where they return it.
Many times, they can not hit it in, even 2nd serves.

Watch high-level doubles and note where the server stands. In general, the server is only close to the center hash when the partner is in Aussie or I formation. The reason: his partner in traditional formation is already covering the DTL. The server is responsible for CC. Standing close to the center means you're giving up a lot of CC.

This is independent of whether anyone at your current level can actually exploit this: assuming you continue to improve, you will be running into more and more players who can.

Also, if your opponents have that much trouble with your serve, you should try to find better opponents.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Very good advice

I have not given much thought to standing location.
They have enough trouble returning that I have not been left exposed.
It is rare they can pinpoint where they return it.
Many times, they can not hit it in, even 2nd serves.

A lot of 3.5 players will have problems with a lefty server that has decent spin. Stronger 3.5 & 4.0 returners will be able to adjust to your lefty serves somewhat better. A good idea to to adjust your serving position now to develop the habit. For standard formations, the server will be typically be closer to the singles sideline than to the center hash mark. Or your can vary your position and start closer to halfway between the center and the doubles side line.

In the 2nd image, the lefty server is somewhat closer to to the center mark. From this position he will probably hit a lot of 1st serves up the middle to a righty BH. Serving up the middle (T serves) will also make it much easier for your partner to poach returns. On the AD side, you will probably serve from a position somewhat closer to the alley. You can still hit some T serves but you also want to serve it out wide more on this side than the DEUCE side. A lefty slice or topspin-slice on the AD side can curve out very wide on the returner's BH side. Jamming a right-handed player on the FH side is also a good strategy. These players will often have a difficult time trying to run around a serve spinning into the body on their FH side.

The server's partner should start closer to the middle of the service box as seen in the 2 images above. You partner is starting too close to the alley in the video. It will be very difficult to poach the return from that position. If your partner fears that you will hit them with your serve, they can crouch or lean the upper body forward so that they are a smaller target. Alternately, they can start a step closer to the alley but then shift more to the middle of the box when they hear you contact the ball.

From the more central position, the SP can poach more easily. If they see that your serve is out wide then they can take a step toward the alley to cover the DTL shot if the other team is capable of hurting them with that shot.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Atari,
Why should a lefty serve from the alley on the AD side? Lets say the ball part curves right.
If you serve from the center hash, let's say it lands wide. So, if you move to the left, to the ally, it will now land near the T.
Serve from middle to go wide to BH, and serve from alley to jam his FH (body shot)?

Are you also saying that a lefty server's net man should not protect the alley as much (for deuce side), since the ball is moving towards the center ?
What about on AD side? Where should net man stand?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Atari,
Why should a lefty serve from the alley on the AD side? Lets say the ball part curves right.
If you serve from the center hash, let's say it lands wide. So, if you move to the left, to the ally, it will now land near the T.
Serve from middle to go wide to BH, and serve from alley to jam his FH (body shot)?

Don't understand. Are you saying that you can't place your serve (to a general area) without shifting you position? You should have at least 2 or 3 general target areas for your 1st serve. If your placement isn't all that accurate, you should go for a more conservative target for your 2nd serve -- maybe even the middle of the box.

I was actually suggesting serving from a position close to the singles side line rather than the alley on the Ad side. But serving from the alley is certainly an option as long as you don't cross the imaginary extension of the doubles side line. Serving from a wide position can make it easier to serve a short wide angle that pulls the receiver so wide that they run into the side fence (if they can get to it at all. But if you serve from an extreme position might make it more challenging to cover a lob over your partner's head or make it more difficult to cover the ohter side if your partner crosses over for a poach. Serving from more conservative positions might make other serve placements easier. Find positions that work best for you (and still allow you to adequately cover returns). Vary your position so that your opponents are not seeing the same thing every time.

Are you also saying that a lefty server's net man should not protect the alley as much (for deuce side), since the ball is moving towards the center ?
What about on AD side? Where should net man stand?

The net man should start pretty much in the same relative (central) position on both sides. When they see where your serve will land in the box, they can quickly adjust their position before the returner contacts the ball. If they cheat too much to the mid-line before you hit your serve, they might get in the way of your serve (or limit your serve options) -- unless they are low/crouching.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Let's assume I have zero control over my serve. I have one serve.
I swing and it goes generally, left to right (lefty)
So, if I want wide on AD court, I would stand closer to hash.

Let's make this easy.
Where should I stand when serving to DEUCE? Hash, center, or alley?
Where should I stand when serving to AD? Hash, center, or alley?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If you stand close to the hash, you would need to hit over a higher part of the net for the wide Ad serve. And if you change your position solely on where you intend to place the serve, smart opponents will pick up on it.

Let's not make it easy. I suggest that you figure it out for yourself given what you are capable of now and what will be optimal as you get better at placing your serve. In general, serving from the hash is not ideal in doubs unless you are going with an alternative positioning like the i-formation.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Let's assume I have zero control over my serve.

Why would you assume this? If you have zero control, it won't matter where you stand since it's an exercise in randomness whether the ball will go in.

Since you obviously have some control, making a false assumption invalidates any conclusion.

I have one serve.
I swing and it goes generally, left to right (lefty)
So, if I want wide on AD court, I would stand closer to hash.

No, the wider you want your serve to go, the further from the center you would stand.

Let's make this easy.
Where should I stand when serving to DEUCE? Hash, center, or alley?
Where should I stand when serving to AD? Hash, center, or alley?

You want a formulaic answer to a question that has too many variables and no stated assumptions [other than you have zero control] which affect the answer.

If you look at high-level players, where are they standing? How about taking your cue from them and experimenting some?

If you are paralyzed by indecision, start at the center [halfway between hash and singles tramline] and see how it works for you; adjust on both Deuce and Ad to get the results you want.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Why would you assume this? If you have zero control, it won't matter where you stand since it's an exercise in randomness whether the ball will go in.

That's pretty much it.
Ball might go left, middle, or right.
That's why I stand at the center hash.
That's why you stand directly in front of the bullseye, not to the side.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

That's pretty much it.
Ball might go left, middle, or right.
That's why I stand at the center hash.
That's why you stand directly in front of the bullseye, not to the side.

I've seen your videos: you have a lot more control than "zero".

Let's just say you have less control than you'd like [don't we all].

Your first goal, then, is placement. Don't worry about where to stand and concentrate instead on being able to control where in the service box your serve is going. To eliminate that variable, just stand halfway between the center hash and the singles tramline for both Deuce and Ad. Not necessarily ideal but enough to get started. Once you have a satisfactory amount of control, then worry about tweaking your position.

For placement drills, divide the receiving service box into 3 longitudinal zones: wide, body, and T. Start practicing them, individually at first but then mixing them up later. Set a goal [say, 3 in a row in one specific zone] and raise the # as you get better.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

That's pretty much it.
Ball might go left, middle, or right.
That's why I stand at the center hash.
That's why you stand directly in front of the bullseye, not to the side.

Sounds like a reason to stand at a more optimal position to cover the next shot; not a reason to stand at a sub-optimal position (id est, the center hash mark).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Other perspectives on positioning for 1-Up, 1-Back formation