play your way into a players racquet???

tom-selleck

Professional
can someone play their way into a players racquet (and i'm thinking 95 sq inches, so decent sweet spot)?? i.e. if you have the skill (questionable), can playing a more demanding racquet make your game alot better? or, will you just quit and go back to easier racquet???
 

aj_m2009

Professional
I think maybe. I mean why else would they have tweeners, players' rackets, and God knows what else if they were all the same?
 

AndrewD

Legend
I think that the answer is so inconclusive that the very best you can do is just try it for yourself. Some say 'no' and some say 'yes', however, the only one who can tell for sure, in your particular case, is you. Just remember that not every demanding raquet will be suitable to you.

In the days when the ProStaff 6.0 was still newish not everyone used it and they didn't automatically go for the POG midplus,the Head Prestige or the Dunlop 200G. They used a variety of frames that were, perhaps, a little bit lighter, a little more powerful, a touch larger in headsize and a little bit more forgiving.

Have a look through the TW raquet categories for players frames and see if there's one or two that might be applicable to your current skill level but which give you room to grow as a player. You can still find one that will challenge you but which isn't quite so dated. Eg the nCode nSix-One 95, a great racquet which is demanding of you as a player but will still allow you to be competitive as you build your skill base.

Good luck and let us know how you go.
 

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
again..why the stigma attached to using a so called 'players racquet'..what is it that people think they are going to gain by playing your way into such a thing? inquiring minds want to know...you can say better feel or more control or whatever, but you can get that from all kinds of racquets if you have the skillset including game improvement ones
 

aj_m2009

Professional
NBM, "players'" frames tend to be less stiff than others. And they also sometimes come in bigger grip sizes than "tweener" rackets.
 

Pirc Defense

New User
I recently bought and am using the Head LiquidMetal Radical Mid. I upgraded to this from a crappy $25 racquet. Obviously, the differences are substantial.

I will say that using the Radical is more "difficult." In other words, you can't get lazy with your swing. If you just try to "get the ball back" to the other side of the court, the result will be a very weak, short ball that should get pounded back at you. Each swing has to be your full swing or the ball just won't go very far.

The benefit of course is much more solid feeling racquet that doesn't vibrate my whole being on volleys, that lets me hit a decently fast serve, etc.

I'm probably not at the stage where I'm getting the full benefit of my racquet, but it is still an upgrade from my previous racquet.
 

alan-n

Professional
Just play with what you are comfortable with. When I first started I was handed an old Wilson Sting 95, the ones made in the early/mid eighties. Since then I'm not comfortable with modern light even balance or head heavy racquets.
 

Safina

Semi-Pro
When I first picked up tennis, I tried to go with a 12oz Radical with 18x20 strings.... I hated it.
I was much better with a 24mm tweener, then went to 22mm, now I am using a 19mm Prestige.
I tried to go to the Prestige earlier, but could tell I wasn't ready. But kept trying it...

Now I couldn't go back to a tweener frame if I wanted to. Nothing has the great solid feel and control of a true player's frame.

I think you can speed up the time it will take to use a player's frame by owning one and practicing with it. But I wouldn't automatically use it as your main racquet. I won a lot of matches with my tweeners that I would have lost badly with the Prestige before, because I would've been overpowered.

Anyway, I think using a player's racquet is a great goal to strive towards, but there are several paths you can take to get there.

Oh and by the way, I used to string my tweeners at high tensions so when I got my prestige I tried the same thing ... BIG MISTAKE.
If you are just beginning to use a players frame... try lower tensions first and work up from there. I hated the prestige for a while just because I strung it WAY to high.
 

DX_Psycho

Semi-Pro
i used to use a ti. S8 with a humongous head and i would just push all day because if i let the ball bounce off of my racquet it would just pop over the net a little bit with no pace but people couldn't win. my friends started getting annoyed and i didn't want to play that style of tennis so i switched over to an H6 Hammer. It had too much power for me and my strings were old so i went over to a PSC6.1. I stayed with it for a couple months but then it started feeling too stiff and heavy for me so i switched to the PC600 and it's been my racquet since.

so i went from 118 (probably... that is a big head) -> 95 -> 90 and went from ultra light -> light -> heavy -> medium

you just gotta find what's right for you.
 

joe sch

Legend
Players rackets generally have smaller sweet spots, thinner beams, heavier weight and are less powerful thus require generating your own power with longer strokes. If your not "player" enough to handle such a racket then you will either learn to become more "player" or just a bigger loser. Your mileage may very depending upon many individual and opponent factors.
 

AndrewD

Legend
Also, if you follow the maxim of selecting as heavy a racquet as you can swing consistantly then you will find out what category of frame is best suited to you. If you can consistantly swing, without it hindering your form, something in the 12ounce range then you're no longer in the 'tweener' or whatever you want to call it category. If you find you can't comfortably handle that sort of weight then you're doing yourself no favours playing with a 'demanding' and heavy frame. Won't improve your game at all but most likely leave you frustrated.

Im 6ft, 190lbs and an ex football player so physically quite strong, however, as I only play tennis once a week and am now in my mid 30's I find myself, after about 2-3 sets, struggling to effectively and consistantly swing a racquet over 12ounces. Its a different kind of strength and fitness you need for that and I dont have the time to build it up. As a result, I think I will need in the next year to drop down in weight to something in the 11.5 ounce range. My technique and skill level are both pretty good but I am a realist. If I can't keep the head of the racquet up after 2 tough sets then the prototypical players frame is not longer much good to me and will lead to more losses than wins. Something lighter, even if its a tweener or beginner frame might be perfectly suited to me and compensate for what Ive lost or never had.

I think you need to take all of those things into account before you go for one racquet or another. The assumption that a player's frame will make you better is wholly flawed if you are not, for whatever reason, suited to one. Still, as they say, 'the proof is in the pudding', so just give it a try. You can see that no-one can actually agree on this so I think the best answer is the one you find yourself.
 

NoBadMojo

G.O.A.T.
andrew has this figured out..it really is simple..buy the heaviest frame you can swing as fast as you want for as long as your sessions last when you play a better player, and buy something with a sweetspot large enough that you can reliably find when playing someone slightly better than you. if you do this, you really dont have to concern yourself with stiffness, beam thickness, or any of that abba dabba because it takes care of itself based upon your abilities to swing something fast enough. as your technique improves, you can always add a little weight or move on to another frame, but i really have trouble figuring out why people would choose to penalize themselves by their gear..like tennis is an easy game to play so you want to make it tougher...the mantra around here is 'everyone should use whatever they want' and that is certainly true.
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
aj_m2009 said:
NBM, "players'" frames tend to be less stiff than others. And they also sometimes come in bigger grip sizes than "tweener" rackets.

I think Yonex Mptour5 has a flex of 59 and wt. 11.1 oz!
The Volkl Tour 7 on sale has a flex of 63 and similar wt.
Neither has a terribly thick beam.
These are the kind of tweeners I prefer and could see myself using when
I start losing my strength.

It's funny but until this past year, I never was concerned w/ flexibility of a racquet, but I'm seeing associations b/w elbow pain or shoulder pain and stiff racquets (>70). I was always fixed on wt. and string pattern and head size... I suspect for example that the ncode 6, successor to the ps6.0, won't last more than a few years and a lot of ppl w/ jump ship due to joint pains.

I'm not aware of "tweeners" not having the full range of grips. The Volkl Tour 7 may not b/c it is a liquidation product now.
 

tom-selleck

Professional
i didn't know players racquet had so much to do with weight... i thought more size of sweet spot, but i guess it's both....

andrew (??? name), you make a good point about sort of conventional strength (football, weight lifting etc) and being able to play the racquet for 2.5 hours.... hard to say what i should do for my next racquet.
 

AndrewD

Legend
Tom-selleck (loved your show by the way lol),

I think that if you've had some time out of the game you can get a surprise when you come back and find you just cant swing it the way you used to, no-matter what you've been doing in the meantime. I came back to tennis after a ten year break using a POG OS and a Volkl T10mp GenII, until a rather unfortunate car incident. Didn't hit long enough with the Volkl but as it was roughly the same weight as the Prince I'll put it in the same boat when I say that I was struggling to maintain my technique into the third set of my matches. Yes, I had some wins with them and seemed to be doing pretty well, however, it was taking me a number of days to recover in terms of sore arm, shoulder, wrist. Not the fault of the racquet, just me getting older and having lost the strength in the areas I needed to keep strong for tennis (something that guys who've never had that break dont seem to find). If I had kept playing with them I might have found, by the end of the year, that Id built up enough strength to keep swinging through the third, fourth and fifth sets. But, I can't be sure and have doubts when I know I'd only be playing once a week and doing little training otherwise.

The solution to the problem could be to begin with a racquet that has all of the qualities you might be looking for in a frame MINUS the weight. You can't do anything to modify flex, headsize or composition but you can modify weight. Remember, you can modify the sweetspot through tension and weight. If I found my 'tennis playing condition' not improving after six months and knew I wasn't going to be able to devote some time to gym work etc then that's what Id be looking at. Somewhere between the Dunlop 300G which is only 10.8ounces ( but very modifiable through weight and you can add or subtract depending on how you feel on the day) and the Wilson ProStaff Tour 95 which is 11.5 ounces seems to me to be the best idea.

Id suggest going to the TW racquet finder and inputting all of the criteria range you know you prefer - headsize, length and flex- but putting in a weight range between, say, 10.5 and 11.5 ounces. That gives you quite a lot of options and Im sure you'll find something in that group which would be good. Apart from the two I mentioned you also get the Head LM Rad mp, i-Radical mp, Prince TT Warrior (plus a few more Prince racquets) , couple of Technifibres and some Babolat frames so you've got ample opportunity to choose if you prefer one brand over another.

Of all those choices Id say the TT Warrior, 300G or ProStaff Tour 95 would be the ones that interest me the most. If you like the 'players frame' tag they're all proven choices (in modified form of course) so you'd be getting something in that bracket minus the weight. The other good news is they're all between $80 and $100.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Roforot said:
I think Yonex Mptour5 has a flex of 59 and wt. 11.1 oz!
The Volkl Tour 7 on sale has a flex of 63 and similar wt.
Neither has a terribly thick beam.
These are the kind of tweeners I prefer and could see myself using when
I start losing my strength.

It's funny but until this past year, I never was concerned w/ flexibility of a racquet, but I'm seeing associations b/w elbow pain or shoulder pain and stiff racquets (>70). I was always fixed on wt. and string pattern and head size... I suspect for example that the ncode 6, successor to the ps6.0, won't last more than a few years and a lot of ppl w/ jump ship due to joint pains.

I'm not aware of "tweeners" not having the full range of grips. The Volkl Tour 7 may not b/c it is a liquidation product now.

I know there are some "tweener" rackets that aren't very stiff and are a little heavier but the majority that I have seen aren't. And I also haven't seen a lot of "tweener" frames with grip sizes bigger than 4 5/8. These are the only reasons I said what I said.
 

FiveO

Hall of Fame
Its very subjective,

It depends on so many things. One's frame history, ability to generate one's own pace, individual sense of feel and depth control, what inspires confidence, etc..

ME, MOST of my contemporaries and MOST of the players I play and coached, who have progressed to higher levels of play, have stuck w/ player's style frames. There are a few exceptions, but the majority has chosen to stick with player's sticks. It isn't vanity, it isn't "I want to play with what a ATP player hits with". And, it isn't that I'm a masochist and wear frame choice like a "hair shirt". Its what I feel most comfortable w/, gives me the most CONFIDENCE to play well, and doesn't cause me to question my equipment choice.

Having started with wood, I learned to generate power and had it drummed into my psyche that it was better to err LONG than into the net. Pace generation is not an issue I "NEED" a frame to help me with. My frame history? Kramer Autograph>Head Master (aluminum)>Wilson Pro Staff 85" (thru its various moniker adjustments)>Prince Precision Response Ti (after layoff and rushed comeback lead to a bout w/ golfer's elbow) and finally, Yonex RDX 500 mid.

TO ME, the Ti was a nice stick and the easiest COMPROMISE for me to heal, for the first time, a dodgy elbow. That frame has been alternately described by others as a player's and tweener frame. It was a nice frame, relatively flexible, w/ mass for stability, but a slightly wider body than frames I have always gravitated to. I played well with the frame, but ALWAYS in the back of my mind was the DOUBT of when that infrequent, unexplainable FLIER would sneak into a point.

FOR ME, one of the "advantages" of wider bodied tweener or other modern frames, added pace, is the very thing that makes me shy away.

"Lighter is better". Again not to me. Much lighter frames inherently FEEL less stable or toy-like to me. IMO racquet weight isn't CAUSING fatigue, reaching one's overall conditioning limits IS. (I know I'd be better served shedding 7 pounds from MY frame, as opposed to an ounce from my racquet's).

Personally, I haven't found a wider bodied frame that affords anything like the feel of more traditional thinner beamed players frames. Not for drop volleys or other TOUCH shots, but for KNOWING on core shots, the difference between driving the ball to various targets and adding/reducing pace or spin. Wider bodies feel vague to me and my target zones have to expand to accomodate MY perception of the lesser accuracy they provide. I define that as FEEL or FEEDBACK.

And, whether psychological or not, the radar gun and results say I serve more effectively with a small headed players frame.

Granted Tweener, Game Improvement and even lighter wide bodied player's frames do allow a player to put something extra on the ball even when pulled out of position or caused an emergency by an opponent's shot. But are those the vast majority of shots one hits? IMHO they shouldn't be. Beyond that, these type frames can ALLOW players to lapse and fall into habits which are less than optimal, because one can and still hit a forceful shot with them, when doing so. THIS, I see as a POTENTIAL problem for the younger developing player who is willing and can put in many more hours of practice than I can now.

Let's face it, one human trait, we all have, is laziness. If we can do anything faster with less effort we will gravitate toward or slip into it almost like water seeks its own level. On its face "faster and less effort", SOUNDS GOOD BUT, such frames, in such hands, CAN promote shortcuts in mechanics, footwork and other fundamentals which COULD ****** one developing a sound tennis foundation. And, IF those flaws are in one's game, they WILL eventually be exposed WHEN competing at higher levels. For others, forced to make concessions to age, loss of more than a couple of steps, injury, continuing difficulty generating pace, or a myriad of other GOOD REASONS including THEIR PERSONAL PREFERENCE, lighter, wide bodied, fringe player's, tweeners and game improvement sticks ARE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

JMHO but aside for ALLOWING players to slip into and/or get by with less than optimal mechanics, there may be other costs involved. With less mass in a frame what is then absorbing impact. With the stiffer, large heads in that category if not centering the ball consistently there is more tourque and jolt going somewhere. NO MATTER WHAT FRAME ONE PLAYS, YOU HAVE TO CENTER THE BALL.

Again, this is only an opinion but I think injuries may start to manifest themselves in recreational players as a result of these frame choices combined with our non-professional level execution of technique. As I'm going to be able to tell my kids that we used to be able to fly the Atlantic above the speed of sound but the costs involved put an end to it, we may see a technological roll back in frame design in the future because of their hidden costs. Again that's JMHO.

Just as with grips, stroke idiosyncracy and practically every element of our sport, SUBJECTIVE PERSONAL PREFERENCE should be the primary factor in frame selection.

Also some posters have implied or stated outright that traditional player's sticks and modern technique are somehow mutually exclusive. This IMHO is patently untrue. Forget the Federer's, Safin's and Hewitt's. Myself (47) and many of my generation, as well as younger players at an advanced level, use "modern technique" and traditional frames. That assertion is just wrong.

Are traditional players frames for everyone? NO. But, to summarily dismiss heavier, headlight, smaller head, thin beamed player's frames as wrong for everyone, is disingenuous.
 

Roforot

Hall of Fame
aj_m2009 said:
I know there are some "tweener" rackets that aren't very stiff and are a little heavier but the majority that I have seen aren't. And I also haven't seen a lot of "tweener" frames with grip sizes bigger than 4 5/8. These are the only reasons I said what I said.

Oh, for greater than 5/8th's grip is going to be tough w/ tweener or player racquets. I've heard that Wilson made Michael Jordan special grips (apparently he dabbles once or twice a year for fun) but other than asking them, I think you're stuck w/ using heat sleaves or overgrips.
 

aj_m2009

Professional
Roforot said:
Oh, for greater than 5/8th's grip is going to be tough w/ tweener or player racquets. I've heard that Wilson made Michael Jordan special grips (apparently he dabbles once or twice a year for fun) but other than asking them, I think you're stuck w/ using heat sleaves or overgrips.

Yeah, that was pretty much what I was getting at.
 
Five-O,
is your elbow still OK with the RDX 500 Mid? Much to my dissapointment mine gave me elbow (for the first time). Now using a Dunlop 200g which is easy on the arm, but just does not give that Yonex spin!
 
Top