Rebuilding the forehand: Need help with the takeback!

[Deleted member 25923]

So, i've decided that I need to fix the stroke mechanics, and I think I should start off with my forehand. I know it will suck for a while, but i'm willing to have it suck for a while so that it can become a better shot. Here is a post I made in another thread on an "epiphany" I had. Let me know if it's on target:

I have a theory as to why i'm shanking so much and robbing myself of so much power. I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, so let me know if i'm close.

I noticed in my takeback (especially more recent videos) that I DO NOT lead my takeback with the elbow. I take it back somewhat with the elbow, and then I disengaged the wrist to loop the racket and have it drop so that I can swing low to high on the ball. Now i'm left with a floppy wrist that does not load up, and my arm/shoulder unit does not get that stretch that allows for the energy to build up.

In this video of Federer that i'm watching (as well as the footage of my brother, who has a big forehand), I notice that the racket is pointing up at the sky and tilted forwards at the end of the takeback prior to the racket drop. The arm and elbow facilitate the racket drop, NOT the wrist, as in my forehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk&feature=related

I think this explains why my forehand has a feminine look to it all around. It looks awkward from the get go, and I can't explain why, until now. Now that I can see it in full, I think this is what is holding back a lot of the power from my forehand.

Now, can someone explain it on my backhand

Now, I am looking to develop a straight arm forehand, ala Verdasco, Federer, and Nadal. The two things to start off with are the grip and takeback. I believe that I have the grip down. It's an extreme eastern/semiwestern now. I believe Fed is eastern, Rafa is SW, and Verdasco is somewhere between, maybe more towards Rafa.

My question and gripe on the takeback is how I should lead the takeback. I feel that the elbow should lead, but I'm not sure if that's what I'm seeing in the takebacks of Rafa and Verdasco here. The Federer video I posted above seems to be doing that.

Verdasco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTgI4zmFXkE&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetxCiRKSh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5U-eeac9qo

Nadal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gdxJQJrDYE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inQvbT8uEGk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6EY7FxgUg

Federer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk
And the above ones for him in the tagged post.

I know right now that my takeback is terrible and I stop and use my wrist to complete the takeback, robbing me of power. Here are some videos of myself to prove it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZowGarfExU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epx6AgCUipI

So, how should I take the racquet back to help load up and prep for a straight arm forehand like these guys. Rafa's takeback looks much different than Feds, and Verdasco's looks quite similar to Feds. Should I lead with the elbow? How do I go about not still taking back with the wrist and destroying my kinetic chain from the get go?

Thanks

PS: Tricky and company, this post is screaming for your help

 

[LeeD]

Lead with the elbow, use both hands on the racket, one grip, one throat, point the racket at the sky straight up until you release you oft hand, keep both elbows up and air your armpits.

 

[Off The Wall]

So, i've decided that I need to fix the stroke mechanics, and I think I should start off with my forehand. I know it will suck for a while, but i'm willing to have it suck for a while so that it can become a better shot. Here is a post I made in another thread on an "epiphany" I had. Let me know if it's on target:




Now, I am looking to develop a straight arm forehand, ala Verdasco, Federer, and Nadal. The two things to start off with are the grip and takeback. I believe that I have the grip down. It's an extreme eastern/semiwestern now. I believe Fed is eastern, Rafa is SW, and Verdasco is somewhere between, maybe more towards Rafa.

My question and gripe on the takeback is how I should lead the takeback. I feel that the elbow should lead, but I'm not sure if that's what I'm seeing in the takebacks of Rafa and Verdasco here. The Federer video I posted above seems to be doing that.

LeeD is right on.

I applaud trying to hit forehands like those pros you listed. However, are you sure you want to hit with that arm extended? That takes exquisite timing.

I'm wondering: anyone posting here hit extended arm forehands like Roger & Rafa?

 

[Power Player]

No way are you going to go right into a straight arm forehand. That's like trying to start soloing before you can play chords. You need to break it down to the basics and learn the double bend.

 

[riposte_18]

Keen to monitor this thread, your other thread has garnered a lot of useful information.

I'm also looking to rebuild my forehand, and realized my takeback is primarily the issue too. Leeds advice sounds pretty spot on in terms of what I've found for myself. Two hand take back ensures that you'll get the torso rotation built into your swing, as well as ensuring the racquet is raised to perform a loopy swing to generate lots of power ... now I just got to focus on the whole hitting-the-ball part of the swing

When people suggest leading with the elbow, does that mean (I'm right handed) that the right elbow should going backwards almost parallel to the ground?

 

[aimr75]

cocking the elbow usually initiates the takeback while the non hitting hand is on the racquet.. from there, keep the hitting arm/wrist as passive as possible.. you'll notice just keeping it passive and letting the body complete the unit turn, the racquet will end in the "pat" position without you doing anything with the arm..

Its a different sensation allowing the body to turn in the unit turn while the arm stays passive versus having the feeling the turn is dominated by arm movement

 

[dominikk1985]

the takeback doesn't really matter at all. some lead with the elbow like lendl, some have a very high loop like moya and some a rather flat loop like Fed. doesn't really matter and is a personal style.

personally I wouldn't do a direct takeback but have a small loop (racket head pointing up a little at the end of the backswing).

most of the backswing comes from the shoulder turn anyway. that's also why causes the elbow lead look (unless you are someone who really lifts the elbow first like moya). when you rotate the shoulders back the elbow will lead automatically.

the key is to get to a good hitting position in time. aesthetics are not that important, look at Sod who has the ugliest backswing but hits the hardest on the tour (or second hardest after DP when he is in shape).

If you want to emulate someone in the backswing (which is really useless) I would use some very simple FH like davy, agassi or novak.

 

[user92626]

One big (crucial?) element in fully extended FH is the drastic wrist lay-back and release into the swing. I don't know how the fh would work if you did not have it.

To me this FH feels more control than hitting otherwise. It gives me a fixed radius which helps consistency so much.

 

[Ash_Smith]

Hi Mansewerz

Good luck with your project! Below is something I put together for the "how strokes are taught thread" - it might help guide you through your rebuilding a little. Personally, I wouldn't worry about going elbow led too much, it can cause some issues with the timing later on in the swing for a lot of people as the forearm plays catch-up. I tend to prefer a backswing where the elbow stays down and rotated slightly inwards, this position improves stability through the swing for the majority of players and allows them to maintain their hitting structure right through the acceleration phase of the swing.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=379816&page=3

Either way, good luck and have fun playing around with it.

Cheers

 

[Hewex]

Thanks Ash. As usual, your posts are very helpful.

 

[chico9166]

These comments are reference to the "some rallies" video. Your backswing is fine. The forward swing in both the forehand and backhand though can use some work. It would seem that on both shots you are under the impression that your elbows need to stay almost glued to your ribcage.

As you drop the racquet in the backswing and find the slot, the elbow will move "in" close, but as the forward swing progresses, the elbow should move up and slightly away from the midline. Perhaps the easiest fix is set up further from the line of the ball (increase lateral spacing and enlarge swing arc)

 

[dozu]

cocking the elbow usually initiates the takeback while the non hitting hand is on the racquet.. from there, keep the hitting arm/wrist as passive as possible.. you'll notice just keeping it passive and letting the body complete the unit turn, the racquet will end in the "pat" position without you doing anything with the arm..

Its a different sensation allowing the body to turn in the unit turn while the arm stays passive versus having the feeling the turn is dominated by arm movement

do this if you wonna swing like aimr or dozu lol....

essentially, OP, your arm is not passive enough... if you let it stay passive, your body will know what to do.

take the focus OFF THE RACKET, and try to swing the entire arm/racket unit.

everybody asking about FH has the same problem

 

[Deleted member 25923]

These comments are reference to the "some rallies" video. Your backswing is fine. The forward swing in both the forehand and backhand though can use some work. It would seem that on both shots you are under the impression that your elbows need to stay almost glued to your ribcage.

As you drop the racquet in the backswing and find the slot, the elbow will move "in" close, but as the forward swing progresses, the elbow should move up and slightly away from the midline. Perhaps the easiest fix is set up further from the line of the ball (increase lateral spacing and enlarge swing arc)

The backswing won't fix that?

do this if you wonna swing like aimr or dozu lol....

essentially, OP, your arm is not passive enough... if you let it stay passive, your body will know what to do.

take the focus OFF THE RACKET, and try to swing the entire arm/racket unit.

everybody asking about FH has the same problem

I've been trying to make it more passive. I'll try some more. I do however feel that a better backswing will keep me from handcuffing myself.


I noticed on Nadal's and Verdasco's backswing, that at the end, for a split second, they are point their elbows back at them. I'm thinking it's a naturally occurring thing that is somewhat essential. Thoughts?


Thanks for all of the help so far.

 

[dozu]

I noticed on Nadal's and Verdasco's backswing, that at the end, for a split second, they are point their elbows back at them. I'm thinking it's a naturally occurring thing that is somewhat essential. Thoughts?

not sure what you mean bro.

 

[Deleted member 25923]

If you look at the end of both those guy's takebacks, right before their pat the dog motion, you'll notice something about their takebacks. The elbow isn't tucked in and close to the body, but rather away from the body, and pointing behind them and off to a side, right before the racket drops.

 

[dozu]

If you look at the end of both those guy's takebacks, right before their pat the dog motion, you'll notice something about their takebacks. The elbow isn't tucked in and close to the body, but rather away from the body, and pointing behind them and off to a side, right before the racket drops.

ok - I say don't worry about it... if you take aimr's advice, you would not be swinging the racket into the ball... .rather, you'd swing the much heavier arm/racket unit into the ball.

then your central nervous system will tell you what swing path (hence what elbow position) will hit the ball the hardest.

also notice aimr's comment about the racket drop.... in order to have the relaxed free fall from the top of the back swing, your elbow has to be high and away from your body... otherwise there is no room to drop.

 

[asafi2]

If you look at the end of both those guy's takebacks, right before their pat the dog motion, you'll notice something about their takebacks. The elbow isn't tucked in and close to the body, but rather away from the body, and pointing behind them and off to a side, right before the racket drops.

Once you perfect your new fh...I'll just hit it to your backhand ...give you a nice short slice.

 

[chico9166]

The backswing won't fix that?

I've been trying to make it more passive. I'll try some more. I do however feel that a better backswing will keep me from handcuffing myself.


I noticed on Nadal's and Verdasco's backswing, that at the end, for a split second, they are point their elbows back at them. I'm thinking it's a naturally occurring thing that is somewhat essential. Thoughts?


Thanks for all of the help so far.

I would just try to first address the spacing issue on both the forehand and backhand. (the lateral distance from the line of the ball) Your swing on both sides is so cramped/compressed.

 

[EP1998]

I agree with Chico, it's spacing. You need to be able to extend through out to your target more. Loading tour right leg will help but you have to give yourself some room with your feet.

I would have someone toss the feed to you from a close distance. Then you can more or less stand there and not have to worry about getting into position. As you hit the ball, focus on the contact point - you want to be at a place where you make contact and extend through it, out to your target and then finish.

This isnt the best example out there but what I like about it is at 18-20 sec onward you can see how much extension

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w

 

[Deleted member 25923]

Call me crazy, but I like Roddick's forehand. It's not as attacking, but it can be if he uses it that way. For him, it's his mindset that hurts him.

 

[Blake0]

These kinds of angles really help you see the backswing a lot clearer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81HmpkvP4Uo

The straight arm forehand isn't all that difficult, just requires good common fundamentals. You'll need to be able to set up and take the racket back earlier and quicker, timing/contact has to be out further in front, and full core rotation is a must(this one is more of an opinion although doesn't hurt to do).

The backswing is basically how LeeD described it, both hands on racket,racket head points up until moving toward pat dog position, full turn, lead with elbow. It's VERY important to have your elbow away from your body at the end of the backswing (it shouldn't be tucked in like it is in your video), this helps with weight transfer, further contact point, and makes your stroke more efficient. Stay loose, but not too loose, your arm still needs to move in an "educated" matter.

Important tips:
Swing up and across the ball, a WW motion. Focus on swing to the ball first to get into the slot position (if you stay loose).
Don't try to flop the wrist around the ball, your whole arm swings the racket.
Hit through the ball, focus on contact out in front of the body.
Make sure your wrist is passive and is a result from the motion of the rest of your body (don't force the pronation).

 

[tricky]

Right now, you're arming your swing. Not only does it mean you don't have mass behind your shot, but your hitting arm (particularly your wrist) isn't stable.

To rectify this issue, you want to more actively use your non-hitting arm. Aim or find the ball with your non-hitting arm. In fact, this is the best way to initiate your unit turn. As the left hand separates from the racquet, your trunk will automatically start turning away from your non-hitting arm.

Note: As reference, go through a pitching or football throwing motion a few times. You'll notice that your non-throwing arm is used in this way as well.

To help out with bringing mass behind the ball, have your trunk (sternum to collar bones) nudge forward as "one mass" as you aim at the ball with your left hand. It's not a lot, but it helps your right arm load.

In terms of the straight arm FH, there's really two components. The straight-arm forward swing. The straight-arm takeback. Both work independently.

Straight-arm forward swing: The more you let your trunk move forward, the more your forward swing will straighten out. Alternately, you can do the "3 balls in a row" visualization.

Straight-arm takeback: During a takeback, your forearm can either pronate or supinate. If it supinates, the hitting elbow is bent. If it pronates, the hitting elbow straightens out. The "easy" way to do pronation is to simply turn your non-hitting forearm clockwise, so that the pinkie eventually turns toward the sky. Your hitting arm will automatically follow along and straighten out.

 

[NamRanger]

Call me crazy, but I like Roddick's forehand. It's not as attacking, but it can be if he uses it that way. For him, it's his mindset that hurts him.

Roddick's setup is a really good setup to follow for alot of recreational players (at least to a degree) because it shows how much he really prepares for shots. He gets great shoulder / torso rotation and really loads with his legs. This is really evident when he used to go for big shots too. He also has a heavy emphasis on the non hitting arm also.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w


The one thing he gets himself into trouble with is that he has too extreme of a wiper motion at times, which really robs him of power and occasionally causes him to mishit.

 

[KillSwitch Engage]

Roddick's forehand motion is slightly different; more explosive and a much higher takeback in 2001-04. Nowadays he gets much more spin by brushing the ball.

 

[thug the bunny]

Wow there's alot of mechanics here. Personally, I would whiff if I constantly had to think of where my elbows are and the direction of the racquet head and the pronation of my wrists...

I just pull it back high somewhere behind my ear with my grip nice and loose, think of how I want to hit the ball (trajectory and spin), and let it go!

Try eschewing excessive analysis...it might work for you.