Roger Federer in Deciding tie brakeer in finals of tournament

NAS

Hall of Fame
Fed is one of the greatest tiebrake player but I was surprised to learn that he is 1-9 in deciding set tie brake in tournament finals.
Now that is really surprising statistic

Edit: not a bashing thread, I just want to know, any reason why Fed become tight in those scenario, I remember five
Rome, 2003,2006, Miami 2014, Iw 2018 ( next year he again choked again thiem) and Wimbledon 19
 
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D

Deleted member 770948

Guest
Not a shock but shocking.
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Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
Fed is one of the greatest tiebrake player but I was surprised to learn that he is 1-9 in deciding set tie brake in tournament finals.
Now that is really surprising statistic

Edit: not a bashing thread, I just want to know, any reason why Fed become tight in those scenario, I remember five
Rome, 2003,2006, Miami 2014, Iw 2018 ( next year he again choked again thiem) and Wimbledon 19
Nobody should be surprised. The ones who are, weren’t watching.
 

roysid

Hall of Fame
The same reason why his BP conversion is so bad in tough matches.

In tight matches in pressure situations, he tends to play average. Misses easy balls and waits for opponent to either make mistake or come up with goods. Often they do
 

The Big Foe fan

Hall of Fame
Fed is one of the greatest tiebrake player but I was surprised to learn that he is 1-9 in deciding set tie brake in tournament finals.
Now that is really surprising statistic

Edit: not a bashing thread, I just want to know, any reason why Fed become tight in those scenario, I remember five
Rome, 2003,2006, Miami 2014, Iw 2018 ( next year he again choked again thiem) and Wimbledon 19
Bloody choker
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Rome 2003? What? The only ones are 06 Rome, 14 IW, 18 IW, and 19 Wimby, so basically only 06 Rome, and yes he did mug that TB but oh well, no use beating a dead horse.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Fred's never been outstanding in deciding set TBs despite his general TBGOATness, says something for sure. Lolworthy final stat though.
 

TennisLurker

Professional
I think Federer is like Navratilova.
She was super talented and used to winning almost every match easily, but the few times a player that could put up a fight against her had a very good day, she was likely to lose. IIrc of the last 20 matches she played against Mandlikova, her h2h is something like 17-3, but 2 of the losses were slam finals.
Mental toughness is a muscle, and if you win very easily almost every match, you don't exercise it.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Rome 2003? What? The only ones are 06 Rome, 14 IW, 18 IW, and 19 Wimby, so basically only 06 Rome, and yes he did mug that TB but oh well, no use beating a dead horse.

The "deciding tiebreaks in tournament finals" stat is extra specific but it is funny that Federer lost his last 7 (including all 6 in top tournaments), of which 6 by a double minibreak (7-3 or 7-2) and the other one is the Nadal tiebreak where Fred led 5-3 and dropped four straight points to lose.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
Fred's never been outstanding in deciding set TBs despite his general TBGOATness, says something for sure. Lolworthy final stat though.
What are the only meaningful ones he's had to play? 03 TMC - great. 05 TMC - cmon. 06 Rome - should have won but peak Nadal on clay B05, etc (and beat Nalbandian in one the round before). Miami/Canada 07 - does anyone really care? Then there's stuff like 08 Cincy or 09 Canada, can't really be bothered due to Federer's general B03 muggery at the time, although 08 Cincy gave Ned #1. If you count these then you have to count all his deciding TB wins too in non big time matches too of which there are plenty (04 had one vs Ivo, 05 had like 4, 06 had the Scricaphan match, the Nalbandian one, and one I think in Halle, think 07 had one vs Hewitt at Cincy)

So we're left with 03 TMC and 06 Rome since 05 TMC he was in no real shape to compete hard in that TB.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
The "deciding tiebreaks in tournament finals" stat is extra specific but it is funny that Federer lost his last 7 (including all 6 in top tournaments), of which 6 by a double minibreak (7-3 or 7-2) and the other one is the Nadal tiebreak where Fred led 5-3 and dropped four straight points to lose.
yeah and most of them after Rome are so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that I can't even remember them. I guess Canada 07 and Basel 12 are ones I should have remembered.
 

TimHenmanATG

Hall of Fame
Maybe because final-set tie-breaks are like penalty shoot-outs in football: An absolute travesty of sporting competition and ideals.

When a sport eschews traditional rules to appease hoi polloi in the modern era, then there's no wonder why certain kinds of people like these "coin-toss" resolutions to replace sporting artistry.
 
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AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
What are the only meaningful ones he's had to play? 03 TMC - great. 05 TMC - cmon. 06 Rome - should have won but peak Nadal on clay B05, etc (and beat Nalbandian in one the round before). Miami/Canada 07 - does anyone really care? Then there's stuff like 08 Cincy or 09 Canada, can't really be bothered due to Federer's general B03 muggery at the time, although 08 Cincy gave Ned #1. If you count these then you have to count all his deciding TB wins too in non big time matches too of which there are plenty (04 had one vs Ivo, 05 had like 4, 06 had the Scricaphan match, the Nalbandian one, and one I think in Halle, think 07 had one vs Hewitt at Cincy)

So we're left with 03 TMC and 06 Rome since 05 TMC he was in no real shape to compete hard in that TB.

Sounds like propaganda.

Rawgie did lose 1 YEC, 1 slam and 4 masters in deciding tiebreaks after all (while winning none). Regarding the first two, suppose you couldn't expect him to get those TBs given the physical condition or whatever but he should have won both earlier when he served for them anyway (and was 30-0 up in 2005 and damned 40-15 up in 2019). Whatever the circumstances, when you're that close a little bit of extra GOATness to wrap it up should be forthcoming, no?
Masters don't matter as much but still 06 Rome would've given him a win over prime BO5 Claydal - something only Söderling ended up having - and 07 Canada & 14 IW would've given him nice H2H wins over Noel and the latter would give him the standalone IW record, as would the 2018 loss to Delpo (40-15 again!!), which would also more importantly give Federer like an extra two months at #1 iirc (wouldn't cover the current weak era record but still). Surely it isn't too much to ask not to get broken from 40-15 up when serving for sets, matches and especially titles.
 

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
I think Federer is like Navratilova.
She was super talented and used to winning almost every match easily, but the few times a player that could put up a fight against her had a very good day, she was likely to lose. IIrc of the last 20 matches she played against Mandlikova, her h2h is something like 17-3, but 2 of the losses were slam finals.
Mental toughness is a muscle, and if you win very easily almost every match, you don't exercise it.

Fed should have gifted some games to mugs in order not to make his wins that easy, just to exercise his rusty mental toughness muscles and not have problems with fellow ATG's. Sad
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Which is why I never understood the Federer - Jordan comparisons. Federer is a great frontrunner. If he has a lead on you, he's great at trouncing and destroying you while keeping you at arms length. If it gets close, he becomes mortal and not as confident as when he has a big lead. He's not a mug under pressure of course but I wouldn't put him among the best either.
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think Federer is like Navratilova.
She was super talented and used to winning almost every match easily, but the few times a player that could put up a fight against her had a very good day, she was likely to lose. IIrc of the last 20 matches she played against Mandlikova, her h2h is something like 17-3, but 2 of the losses were slam finals.
Mental toughness is a muscle, and if you win very easily almost every match, you don't exercise it.
He did display mental strength at several junctures, it's just that he stupidly let Nadal into his head and, well, Djokovic was just better later on as the younger player.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Which is why I never understood the Federer - Jordan comparisons. Federer is a great frontrunner. If he has a lead on you, he's great at trouncing and destroying you while keeping you at arms length. If it gets close, he becomes mortal and not as confident as when he has a big lead. He's not a mug under pressure of course but I wouldn't put him among the best either.
It very much depends on where you'd place him.

I place him below Djokodal obviously, but not below Sampras.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Which is why I never understood the Federer - Jordan comparisons. Federer is a great frontrunner. If he has a lead on you, he's great at trouncing and destroying you while keeping you at arms length. If it gets close, he becomes mortal and not as confident as when he has a big lead. He's not a mug under pressure of course but I wouldn't put him among the best either.

Mental strength is multi-faceted and not easy to define. I'd say someone like Nadal is actually a better frontrunner than Fed, his winning % when he won the 1st set in slams was ridiculous at one point. On the other hand when Nadal is getting outplayed he gets trounced, rarely does he ever put up a fight and come back. Fed in comparison made as many comebacks from 0-2 down as anyone in open era (I think he shares that record) and rarely loses easily.

I think Fed's a very underrated competitor, he's very resilient and tough to put away. Where he falls short in comparison to the very upper echelon of ATGs is performance under clutch, that's his Achilles heel (relatively speaking of course), his play on big points.

And yeah, Fed was never the Jordan of tennis. Although I don't think any tennis player ever was as mentally tough as Jordan, other players came closer than Fed.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Mental strength is multi-faceted and not easy to define. I'd say someone like Nadal is actually a better frontrunner than Fed, his winning % when he won the 1st set in slams was ridiculous at one point. On the other hand when Nadal is getting outplayed he gets trounced, rarely does he ever put up a fight and come back. Fed in comparison made as many comebacks from 0-2 down as anyone in open era (I think he shares that record) and rarely loses easily.

I think Fed's a very underrated competitor, he's very resilient and tough to put away. Where he falls short in comparison to the very upper echelon of ATGs is performance under clutch, that's his Achilles heel (relatively speaking of course), his play on big points.

And yeah, Fed was never the Jordan of tennis. Although I don't think any tennis player ever was as mentally tough as Jordan, other players came closer than Fed.

I think Federer is one of the greatest frontrunners of all time. Nadal probably leads in the Slam stat but it's probably bolstered by his superiority at RG. You're spot on about Nadal if he's getting outplayed compared to Federer though. Nadal won't put up as much of a fight as Federer who rarely gets beat easily. It's the deciding sets though that Nadal had the edge on Federer. He will more often come out on top in those.

I think in the aspect of Federer fighting within a match is where he is excellent because he will fight to the end but he just often came up short in those matches where he had match points and in the deciding sets.

I always thought Sampras was the Jordan of tennis honestly. Both in athleticism and mental strength under pressure.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think Federer is one of the greatest frontrunners of all time. Nadal probably leads in the Slam stat but it's probably bolstered by his superiority at RG. You're spot on about Nadal if he's getting outplayed compared to Federer though. Nadal won't put up as much of a fight as Federer who rarely gets beat easily. It's the deciding sets though that Nafal had the edge on Federer. He will more often come out on top in those.

I think in the aspect of Federer fighting within q match is whete he is excellent because he will fight to the end but he just often came up short in those matches where he had match points and in the deciding sets.

I always thought Sampras was the Jordan of tennis honestly. Both in athleticism and mental strength under pressure.
Ironically, Fedal are tied in 5 set wins against each other.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Sampras never faced the guys Federer faced. Let's see how he fares under pressure against a guy who can return his serve regularly and a guy who would pepper his weak side relentlessly.

This is true that Federer played ATGs that were a level above the ones Sampras played. Can't really argue with that.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
This is true that Federer played ATGs that were a level above the ones Sampras played. Can't really argue with that.
Even with Federer being relatively weak under pressure, I still see him succeeding under pressure against the likes of Ivanisevic and Agassi.
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Honestly, no idea.

For what is worth, Fed has won more slam finals in 5 than Nadal.

Federer is 4-5 in 5 setters in Slam finals and Nadal is 3-3. Neck and neck really although Federer falls below 500 in the stat. Wanna know the interesting thing? Sampras is 14-4 in Slam finals and only once played a 5 set match: 1998 Wimbledon against Ivanisevic which he won.
 

Saula

Rookie
I knew the stat. He's good in tiebreaks, but not in deciding set ones, at least not in finals.

If he had been more clutch he would have been undisputed goat. Now Novak 'uurgh' Djokovic is going to be.
Mental strength and being clutch when it matters is extremely important and you know that very well . Roger was definitely more clutch against most of the tour but against his 2 biggest rivals , his CoGoats , that is when he folded many times .
Regardless of how good or talented he is the match points he wasted against Djokovic , the horrible BP conversion he has especially against Nadal is the final nail in the coffin for Roger's goat status .
He will end up as the third greatest and third best of his era and a lot of that is his fault .
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Federer is 4-5 in 5 setters in Slam finals and Nadal is 3-3. Neck and neck really although Federer falls below 500 in the stat. Wanna know the interesting thing? Sampras is 14-4 in Slam finals and only once played a 5 set match: 1998 Wimbledon against Ivanisevic which he won.
Pete GOAT competition.
 

NonP

Legend
I think Federer is like Navratilova.
She was super talented and used to winning almost every match easily, but the few times a player that could put up a fight against her had a very good day, she was likely to lose. IIrc of the last 20 matches she played against Mandlikova, her h2h is something like 17-3, but 2 of the losses were slam finals.
Mental toughness is a muscle, and if you win very easily almost every match, you don't exercise it.

There's actually something to this, which brings moi to my classic dissertation on Pistol's "mental strength" and why the term/characterization is misleading:

Yes, and you can also throw in Navratilova who has said on record that she took to grass with ease despite not growing up on it. I've made this same point myself.

Where I differ is on Pete's sliding. I know this is often put forth as the explanation for his lackluster results on clay, but I don't think that's quite right, because while there are matches where he looks downright awkward sliding on the surface, there are also others where he seems on a much surer footing (his '94 Italian Open final against Becker comes to mind).

Instead I think the reason was more strategic and mental. IMO Pete never quite figured out the right balance between net and baseline play. He had to use the former judiciously, because unless your name was Rafael Nadal or Bjorn Borg you were not beating prime Courier or Bruguera from the baseline, at least not most of the time. Pete was gonna succeed in that daunting task 2, maybe 3 at most out of 10 times and of course we know he did just that not once but twice at the same single event ('96 FO), but this was the proverbial alignment of the stars: the courts were reportedly playing fast (though I doubt they were that much faster than usual), Bruguera was coming off an injury-ridden year, and throughout the tourney but especially against Courier Pete was inspired by the recent passing of his long-time coach Gullikson (in his book he discusses how strangely calm he was in the QF even though he was down 2 sets to none). In other times he expectedly came up short, as he did in '93 and '94, and as Becker had found out in his painful loss to Edberg in '89 when he tried to topple Edberg off the ground rather than engage him in S&V battles.

Which brings us to the mental/baseline part of the equation. Past net rushers like Panatta and Noah have shown that coming in can be a successful strategy on clay even against its best exponents like Borg and Wilander, but what's often left out of this factoid is that they didn't just storm the net behind every serve, but rather they patiently traded ground strokes with their opponents while waiting for the right time to move in. (I was once corrected on this very score by krosero, when I made the oft-unchallenged claim that Panatta beat Borg twice at RG with S&V.) This is probably what threw Sampras off the most, and in fact it explains why he had his best result at RG in '96 when he had this net-baseline balance right (the stats I've seen show that he had a fair number of net approaches, but not the kind of sky-high # that a full-on S&Ver like Edberg posted in his '89 SF). In his later years he was attacking the net more and more to an extent where the back court was put on the back burner so to speak, which made getting into that baseline groove more difficult, and I think this was reflected in his sliding we talk about so often. That is, he was constantly questioning whether he should be duking it out from the baseline rather than charging the net at that very moment, hence the unsure footing and the awkward-looking sliding.

That's what I meant when I said his sliding issue had more to do with his mind than with his footwork. In his late years he simply wasn't confident enough as to where to be on the clay court, and he needed someone to rein him in and stress more patience on clay so he could develop this confidence or right frame of mind. Unfortunately Annacone was not this someone, because if anything he was more of a net rusher than Pete and the brand of attacking clay-court tennis necessary to win RG was as alien to him as to his more talented but no less unaccustomed pupil. And when the right coach (Higueras in 2002) came along it was already too late and Pete was no longer willing to tinker with his game (or racquet).

And some of you jokers might already know the guy held serve a mind-boggling 96.9% of the time in his 7 Wimbledon finals, but even that doesn't quite convey just how utterly dominant he was on serve:


Oh and 45% of his serves in his 18 Slam finals did not come back, 47% if we take only the Ws:


Not even Karlovic or Goran clears 45-47% vs. top dogs every time. Now imagine averaging it in the biggest matches of your life over 12 years.

Pistol = BOAT. Of course there are different ways of judging clutchness, and since this thread has to do with Fed let's throw him a bone by expanding our understanding of "mental strength" further:


Last but not least, the correct "clutch" GOATs:


One more thing:

Are you making fun of Pete's comp? Careful. Some people think he had the toughest overall generation of players. :sneaky:

He did:

 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Are you making fun of Pete's comp? Careful. Some people think he had the toughest overall generation of players. :sneaky:
Well, not me.

The potential was definitely thete given the names, but it didn't quite turn out that way.

Pete should be out of any competition debate among GOATS. The Big 3 and Borg had it harder, IMO.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
There's actually something to this, which brings moi to my classic dissertation on Pistol's "mental strength" and why the term/characterization is misleading:



And some of you jokers might already know the guy held serve a mind-boggling 96.9% of the time in his 7 Wimbledon finals, but even that doesn't quite convey just how utterly dominant he was on serve:


Oh and 45% of his serves in his 18 Slam finals did not come back, 47% if we take only the Ws:


Not even Karlovic or Goran clears 45-47% vs. top dogs every time. Now imagine averaging it in the biggest matches of your life over 12 years.

Pistol = BOAT. Of course there are different ways of judging clutchness, and since this thread has to do with Fed let's throw him a bone by expanding our understanding of "mental strength" further:


Last but not least, the correct "clutch" GOATs:


One more thing:



He did:


I think he had a generation of players in his era where a lot of them were specialists. You could really see it between RG and Wimbledon the most where the guys who were in the latter stages of RG, were out by the 1st round at Wimbledon or didn't even bother to show up. Sometimes, you had a rare occurrence of clay specialists making the 2nd week at Wimbledon. Nowadays, players transition between the surfaces much better thanks to changed conditions and better technology. There was a lot of depth but no one as dominant as Pete. Not sure if that makes his era tougher or less tougher tbh, but it was a polarizing and interesting time in the game.
 

merwy

G.O.A.T.
He’s kind of a choker. Most other legends are mental giants, but the choking department is one of the few areas where Fed looks human
 
Fed let his game get taken away from him for quite some time. 2008-2009 he started to go away from his ultra aggressive game and focused more on point construction. He was still able to win at first while he was at his peak, but after he started physically declining + mono his game plan worked against him. Some of it was the changes made to the courts, but we saw in 2017 what could have been if he’d switched racquets earlier and never worked with a moron like Annacone.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
There's actually something to this, which brings moi to my classic dissertation on Pistol's "mental strength" and why the term/characterization is misleading:



And some of you jokers might already know the guy held serve a mind-boggling 96.9% of the time in his 7 Wimbledon finals, but even that doesn't quite convey just how utterly dominant he was on serve:


Oh and 45% of his serves in his 18 Slam finals did not come back, 47% if we take only the Ws:


Not even Karlovic or Goran clears 45-47% vs. top dogs every time. Now imagine averaging it in the biggest matches of your life over 12 years.

Pistol = BOAT. Of course there are different ways of judging clutchness, and since this thread has to do with Fed let's throw him a bone by expanding our understanding of "mental strength" further:


Last but not least, the correct "clutch" GOATs:


One more thing:



He did:

You do realise the selection bias in Wimbledon finals that you play dank returners like Ivanisevic, Becker and Agassi every time?
 

lucky13

Semi-Pro
Fed is one of the greatest tiebrake player but I was surprised to learn that he is 1-9 in deciding set tie brake in tournament finals.
Now that is really surprising statistic

Edit: not a bashing thread, I just want to know, any reason why Fed become tight in those scenario, I remember five
Rome, 2003,2006, Miami 2014, Iw 2018 ( next year he again choked again thiem) and Wimbledon 19

he is 0-4 in the deciding TBs vs nole of which 3 have been in big finals (canada 07, IW 14 and W 19; the fourth was in paris 18 SF). this means that nole is responsible for 1/3 of all his losses in finals in deciding TBs.

it is so in their h2h, the more important moments and points the greater advantage has nole:
  • All matches: (50) Djokovic, 27(+WO)–23 (14-17 before finals: 55% fed)
    • But All finals: (20) Djokovic, 13–6 (one walkover not included): (68% nole)
    • Grand Slam matches: Djokovic, 11–6 (7-5 before final: 58% nole)
      • But Grand Slam finals: Djokovic, 4–1 (80% nole)
    • ATP Tour Finalsmatches: Tied, 3(+WO)–3 (1-3 before final: 75% fed)
      • But ATP Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 2–0 (one walkover not included): (100% nole)
    • ATP Masters matches: Djokovic, 11–9 (6-6 before final: 50%)
      • But ATP Masters finals: Djokovic, 5–3 (63% nole)
    • Other MM matches: Federer, 5–2 (3-0 before final: 100% fed)
      • But Other MM finals: Tied, 2–2 (50%)
    • Best of five set matches: Djokovic, 11–7 (7-7 if not a deciding 5th set: 50%)
      • But Matches lasting five sets: Djokovic, 4–0 (100% nole)
    • Best of three set matches: Tied, 16–16 (6-11 if not deciding 3th set: 65% fed)
      • But Matches lasting three sets: Djokovic, 10–5 (67% nole)
    • Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1
    • Winning the match saving match points: Djokovic, 3–0
  • All sets: Federer, 74–73 (69-59 if not deciding sets: 54% fed)
    • But Deciding sets: Djokovic, 14–5 (74% nole)
  • Tiebreak sets: Djokovic, 16–12 (12-12 if not deciding TB: 50%)
    • But Deciding Tiebreaks: Djokovic, 4–0 (100% nole)
 
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Jokervich

Hall of Fame
Fed is one of the greatest tiebrake player but I was surprised to learn that he is 1-9 in deciding set tie brake in tournament finals.
Now that is really surprising statistic

Edit: not a bashing thread, I just want to know, any reason why Fed become tight in those scenario, I remember five
Rome, 2003,2006, Miami 2014, Iw 2018 ( next year he again choked again thiem) and Wimbledon 19
Federer has always been more of a frontrunner rather than someone who does well in close matches. That's not to say he hasn't won some close matches, but he does much better when he's in the lead. Djokovic on the other hand seems to do better when he's behind and his back is up against the wall.
 
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