sortof
Semi-Pro
Wimbledon may be his best shot for another slam title - and eventually his last one. I don´t expect him to win the USO or any other big title thereafter. His fans seem to believe that this could go on forever, but it won´t.
Roland Garros Final: [3] Novak Djokovic vs [4] Casper Ruud
- Thread starter UnforcedTerror
- Start date
zvelf
Hall of Fame
Obviously, Carlos Alcaraz is that player. Very few players have achieved as much as he has at his age, not even Djokovic or Federer. Rune and Sinner may very well turn out to be ATGs as well. Medvedev could potentially reach ATG numbers on hard court once Djokovic and Nadal are no longer in his way.
Ray Mercer
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz is 16 years younger than Djokovic and just **** the bed in the biggest match of the year against an old Djokovic. Medvedev couldn’t even make it out of the first round. Could you imagine a 26 year old Fed going out in the first round? These guys don’t have Federer like shotmaking and flair.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
They've also dominated because the 90's are the weakest crop of playets of all time.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
History has already settled the matter: Court is one of the GOAT players, along with anyone else who won the Grand Slam, so those who failed to win the Grand Slam--the Best of the Rest with the most majors (e.g. Djokovic, Serena, Nadal, et al.) are not GOAT players.
So, in your own words, Novak had/has a brutal era as he mostly played the 2000s and 2010s and 2020s. Thanks.
Technology Ruined Tennis
Hall of Fame
Joker's really going to win the CYGS by getting broken less in each final than he did against ancient Fed on 1 knee in set 1 of AO '20? Can't wait!
jl809
Hall of Fame
Wasn’t able to catch the match until 2-2 final set so missed the insanity of set 1 and the damp squib of set 2 from what I’ve read about afterwards.
The little I saw:
The little I saw:
- Djoker’s forehand >>>> Ruud’s forehand, which considering Ruud is only known for his forehand is hilarious. Djoker’s was a missile smacking amazing winners left right and centre, while Ruud was making me wonder how he ever wins points - essentially seemed like he only hit the forehand CC to where Djoker was already standing, and not only that, he can’t hit a forehand on the stretch / the run???? Every time Djoker dragged him out wide on his supposed favourite shot, he’d hit a ****ty short loopy ball lol
- Ruud’s BH was far more impressive in the little I saw than I was expecting. It didn’t make UEs and unlike the FH, he was actually prepared to redirect with it??? Crazy stuff
- Djoker’s serve. DJOKER’S SERVE. Getting Goran to turn it into what it is now is the #1 reason he is at 23 now aside from conditioning. Against anyone who isn’t an elite returner in this field, he is getting so many damn points off it. Even vs Alcaraz he got so many
- Djoker is the GOAT in spite of his net play. Can you imagine if Goran gets that sorted for him in the next year or two? It’ll be carnage
Tiki-Taka
Semi-Pro
Ole ole ole oleee
Noleeeeeeeeeee
Noleeeeeeeeeee
Many many congrats. He has completed the game unlike anyone before him, and he has done it the hard way. As such, he deservedly stands alone in Slams and so many other categories.
I hope Carlos can win his share while competing against him, but a well playing Novak is always great for the game, so good luck to him in the future events as well.
Noleeeeeeeeeee
Noleeeeeeeeeee
Many many congrats. He has completed the game unlike anyone before him, and he has done it the hard way. As such, he deservedly stands alone in Slams and so many other categories.
I hope Carlos can win his share while competing against him, but a well playing Novak is always great for the game, so good luck to him in the future events as well.
All rise and be upstanding, and take your hats off to salute the record breaking achievements of Novak Djokovic. Much has been said and no doubt will be said, but the simple fact of his illustrious career to date is that he has taken every opportunity to excel, remained focused and committed to do the very best that he can. In achieving this ground breaking record, ND has shown what is possible, and how to achieve it. His achievement is inspirational, not just in tennis, but in sport.
It has taken years of hard work, a steely self belief and impeccable dedication to stand at the pinnacle. Bravo, Maestro.
It has taken years of hard work, a steely self belief and impeccable dedication to stand at the pinnacle. Bravo, Maestro.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I thought Ruud comported himself very nicely. If he can just get a little more stick on the backhand and use it up the line more. He's only won 250s, but I think he has Slam potential. Maybe not a ton of Slams, but I think he could take advantage of the right draw. Kudos Novak, the GOAT. I'm not super enthusiastic about saying that, but there's really nothing else to say.
mightyjeditribble
Hall of Fame
I went out after set two - seems I didn't miss much? Well done to Djokovic on his amazing achievement.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
gqnelly
Rookie
How many top juniors and collegiate athletes have we seen that came in with all the credentials in the world only to fail or fall well short of expectations? At some point your MENTAL performance takes over if you are elite. Everyone at the top levels of tennis has good fundamentals. Everyone has access to good coaching. The Reagan Recession and Black Monday may have hurt some families but it clearly didnt stop Agassi, Sampras, Courier, Capriati etc. It also mostly impacted US players (as the global economy was much more siloed at the time). The access to information today makes it so much easier to raise your level. I am a better player today than I was in college. The average tour player is so much better than they were in the 80s and 90s. There was a huge distance between the #1 and the #100 player. Today...I have seen players ranked outside the top 150 play to an incredible level and beat top 25 players. It isnt because the top players aren't great...its because the quality of the guys outside of the elite ranks is absurd. My coach played at Illinois and is an incredible athlete. He has tried to boost his ranking through Futures and Challenger events over the past 5-7 years since graduating and has struggled to gain any momentum. He says the average player is just so good that he has given up trying to break in.
Serve&Bash
Semi-Pro
In every sport the great players are playing better and better longer into their careers. The fact that players in the past called it a career in their late 20s and early 30s says nothing about what the big 3 were able to accomplish late into their careers. The guys in the past walked away from the game and that was their decision. The big 3 continued to work on their games and adjust accordingly for any age related deficiencies. Tennis is a sport where the most talented players can adjust their games to hide the gradual age-related decline. Djokovic improved his serve and started hitting through his forehand more. Nadal started hitting everything like 10 mph harder in 2017 and stopped the loopfests he used to get into. Federer improved his already amazing serve, started half volleying from the baseline and attacked the net more often.
Tennis is not olympic sprinting. I fully expect a fit 36 year old with supreme talent like Djokovic to continue his winning ways. When you take care of yourself the way Djokovic does 36 is not geriatric like some people here suggest. In fact, barring severe injuries I expect this to be the trend from now on with players having longer primes.
Tennis is not olympic sprinting. I fully expect a fit 36 year old with supreme talent like Djokovic to continue his winning ways. When you take care of yourself the way Djokovic does 36 is not geriatric like some people here suggest. In fact, barring severe injuries I expect this to be the trend from now on with players having longer primes.
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
Tennis history doesn't have to conform to the script inside your head.
It's interesting because it keeps changing: we had never had a "big three" before and nobody's complaining about that.
There are a few patterns that sometimes reemerge, but tennis history is not exactly cyclical, it's more like a spiral.
D_m_a
Semi-Pro
He's a PHUERKING LEGEND!!
ScentOfDefeat
G.O.A.T.
What the last few years have taught us is that perhaps 36 is not "old" if you're able to obsessively take care of your body like Djokovic (and the other members of the big 3 to a certain extent). "Peak" form doesn't really have a measurable meaning anymore because your form doesn't correlate exactly with how old you are, it's a complicated amalgam of skill sets, health, mental prowess, etc. Wawrinka only reached such levels in his late 20s, and one can arguably say Djokovic is probably more efficient in his 30s than in his 20s. Taking this into account, it's already pretty remarkable that Alcaraz was able to win a Slam in his teens and be a threat in at least two other major events. Perhaps Djokovic is in fact closer to his "peak" than Alcaraz to his, so it isn't such a huge a scandal that he can't beat "old" Djokovic at a Slam. If tennis continues to progress like this, Alcaraz is in fact extremely precocious and his best years won't even be in the next decade, but the one after that. Why do we keep applying 90s standards and age/performance expectations to a game that has clearly changed in the past 30 years?
gqnelly
Rookie
I agree with much of what you said with the following slight adjustments:
1. I would say Novak's serve was a weapon well before Goran started coaching him in 2019. I do agree it is a very underrated weapon of his and more often than not, he serves his way out of trouble.
2. You mentioned Novak's "net play". I assume you meant just the overhead. He has a tremendous volley along with a fantastic drop shot.
3. Novak's forehand gets overlooked because his backhand is so potent but lordy begordy he rarely gets the worse of matchups against lethal forehands. It can stand up to any on the tour in terms of horsepower and it is bulletproof in terms of consistency.
Serve&Bash
Semi-Pro
Personally, I don't understand why it took this long for Djokovic's forehand to get the acknowledgement that it deserves. Djokovic's backhand is a great shot that is super solid and amazing at redirecting traffic but he can't overpower most players with it. Since he started winning big his forehand has always done the heavy lifting; it is the shot that opens up the court for him.
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
Well he is being honest. He is a great person. Great tennis player, would have been a bit of a lie, so can't fault him there.
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
Honestly there are very few players who truly have a better backhand than forehand. Wawrinka's backhand also got more praise but his forehand was the main shot he was blowing winners past Djokovic in those slam finals he beat him.
I think anytime a player has a great backhand, this happens, since it is so rare to have a great backhand at all.
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
He might be too nice, but I think he does well with his game and weaponary. I am not sure he can get a lot better than he is.
Honestly he is better exploiting his net game more, as I was surprised how strong his net game in many of his matches here looked. I didn't realize he had that good of potential there. He is best exploring that more and becoming an all court player, as I don't see him getting the better of Djokovic, Alcarez, and Medvedev strictly from the baseline all match long.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
Post in thread '2023 ATP Rome Masters 1000' http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/2023-atp-rome-masters-1000.748960/post-17310613
2015: lost F to Murray/won RG
2021: lost F to Nadal/won RG
2023: lost QF to Rune/won RG
@Hitman @Beerus @Djokovic_is_the_best#1
2015: lost F to Murray/won RG
2021: lost F to Nadal/won RG
2023: lost QF to Rune/won RG
@Hitman @Beerus @Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Ruud was outstanding at net in the final, apart from his overheads.
A Federer fan here who was in awe of the courage Djokovic showed in resisting the covid mandates. I liked him before, but I love him now.
Ralph
Hall of Fame
Snap. Exactly me. The cr@p they've put him through.
Federer will always be my favourite player, but Djokovic deserves the accolade for all he has achieved. You can't argue the numbers. He's the greatest.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Quite the opposite.
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
Agreed. Which is why I think he needs to exploit that part of his game further in the future. Especialy as it is more effective off clay.
How so? He had to beat Nadal and Federer all the time to get his titles. Where is you actual response other than nothing.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
All the time is an exaggeration and he's won most of his slams after 2014 when Fed got older and no ATGs have come up after him.
Federer was as clutch, but had to deal with Nadal. Djokovic had time to study both and find their flaws. Neither has many but father time was catching up to Federer and Nadal's career threatening injuries took a toll. Djokovic has taken full advantage.
He's a vegan.
As a big Federer fan, I was disappointed in Federer not supporting Novak during his ordeal. Lost lot of my respect for Federer. Now I am not haunted my 2019 Wimbledon final.
RS
Bionic Poster
kayapit
Semi-Pro
Must say I quite enjoyed the AO win more than yesterday. The end of the AO and immediate aftermath was so emotionally raw and powerful. Yesterday's long moment prone on the clay and after-celebration felt planned and a little cringe. Very happy Nole won though. GOAT debate concluded.
As a vegan myself I know the health benefits. So does Novak Djokovic.
RS
Bionic Poster
He eats fish and egg to the occasion according to him
a10best
Hall of Fame
But wait. I know two vegans who do it to: (1) control their weight and (2) because she is an animal activist.
Yet, they still eat some of the wrong carbs, processed healthy foods and high glycemic natural sugars.
It may not affect you in your 20s and mid 30s but those chronic pains and inflammation will eventually occur.
Saying you're vegan is not enough. I believe Djokovic is vegan and doesn't do high glycemic or high carbs (the right way).
Props to him for mentioning Kobe and Mamba mentality in the post-match interview.
Fully agree, that's what I'm saying for years now. Even in sprinting things have changed. Someone like Kim Collins ran his personal best with almost 40. And as you said, in tennis it's about much more than maybe being half a step slower. And the physical decline always gets exaggerated anyway. While playing very aggressive nowadays, Djokovic still belongs to the best in retrieving balls. Even if a few players MAY be better in it right now, then it still doesn't mean they will hit a better shot while on the run.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Lovely picture.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
Unlike Alcaraz, 20-year old Federer lost in the first round of the French Open and Wimbledon. Clay is easily Medvedev's worst surface, but he did win Rome, which Federer never did in his entire career in 17 attempts. Basically, naming a few match losses does not an ATG unmake.
Even as Federer got older, he played at an ATG level just like Djokovic has. Djokovic has had to play Nadal, fellow GOAT-contender, his entire career and so "all the time" does apply there. No two men have played each other more times in the Open Era than those two, not even close. After 2014, Djokovic and Nadal have met 6 times in slams and had they not stopped each other there, they would have even far more majors. In comparison, the classic rivalry between Borg and McEnroe only had 4 slam meetings between them for the entire rivalry. Djokovic and Nadal have played each other 18 times in slams total.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
It really is crazy that it hasn't happened in any substantial way. There's usually substantive generational overlap - a time when the old gen and the new gen are really competing and exchanging slams. That hasn't really happened in the Big 3 era. The Big 3 era is SUCH a unique era in men's tennis. The length and depth of dominance is just unreal. We're basically on the third younger generation that's supposed to be chasing the old guard. And at this point, all that's left of the old guard is Djokovic - though Nadal was around until last year.
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