"Serve doc" offers "some of what I've learned"...

[Serve Doc]

As the Serve Doc, inventor of the A.P. Belt training system of products and having written and produced a multitude of instructional productions including 2 dozen under the Bollettieri brand plus 40 years of teaching....here's what I've learned most.
1) Most coaches don't know what they don't know and may never know
2) Many coaches try to impress you with sophisticated terminology to earn your confidence and trust but it rarely translates into practical application for students...they are only impressing themselves and not their players in the end.
3) Coaches are far too focused on minuscule style details like they're dissecting a frog in Biology class and can't differentiate style from meaningful fundamental components.
4) Coaches tend to be the LEAST coachable of anyone ironically as we always emphasize coach ability to our players....it's often because of insecure egos and afraid of being exposed for what they don't know
5) Coaches limit themselves to teaching based on the limits of what they accomplished as players and don't seek mentorship from those who can take them beyond their experiences
6) The industry is stuck in the old days of teaching sequence style like motor drive pics from magazines of the 70's and 80's. Conceptual methods work far better for many reasons and crosses language barriers best as well as young players who don't understand more complex terminology.
7) Just because you post some tips on youtube or publish your thoughts doesn't buy immediate credibility as an expert. Anyone can do that good or bad. Players need to figure out what is legitimate and solid instruction and learn to filter out the rest.

So, while I understand this platform and the rush most get from dissecting details to the nano level degree, it does n't help you improve yourself or help others to speak that way when making players. BTW, update on 2 of my proteges featured on my youtube channel who I started at 9...Top is in his second year playing #1 for Princeton since he arrived and Sany is starting at Harvard in her 4th year....Both were taught conceptual methodology

 

[Dragy]

What do you think can actually be helpful on a message board like this, or Facebook, or YouTube? Because all the dissecting talks happen because we are actually not receiving this as on-court try-observe-feedback sequence… I cannot get pals with me to help me improve my serve or FH, I can at best post a video, gather feedback, and work with it for weeks or even months.

How can this online training actually be better, based on your experience?

 

[Serve Doc]

What do you think can actually be helpful on a message board like this, or Facebook, or YouTube? Because all the dissecting talks happen because we are actually not receiving this as on-court try-observe-feedback sequence… I cannot get pals with me to help me improve my serve or FH, I can at best post a video, gather feedback, and work with it for weeks or even months.

How can this online training actually be better, based on your experience?

The mind gets frozen when it's full of too much detail, dissecting and thought. Focus on the objective of making desired impact on the ball and on time then build off that. Video is great to gain feedback but don't get bogged down by intricacies. What ever thoughts you put in your head often need to be forgotten to evolve to point development thinking in match play. I was fortunate to find an unbelievable mentor who has become a great friend whom I talk/text with daily after 35 years. We are looking at putting out at podcast together to help others....it would be unbelievable

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

plus 40 years of teaching....here's what I've learned most.

When you are on court with a student, can you see all issues with his serve in real-time with naked eye?
Or do you sometimes need to rely on slo-mo video. How often do you utilize video in private on-court lessons?

 

[Serve Doc]

I use video to get the student to see what I'm seeing because many think they look very different than reality. If you know what to look for and what to address in order of progressions, you don't need video. But you have to know what you're looking for and if you don't see it then there's fundamentals that must be addressed in an order of most important. Style tends to distract the eye from seeing absolute fundamental elements.

Your level of education and experience can expedite process and not get bogged down with unnecessary info to get desired results. They come to me because I can quickly target the heart of issues and fix quickly without being overwhelming so I've been told

 

[johnmccabe]

How would you characterize different stages of learning serves? Just talking on top of my mind. Basic motion, variety, placement, percentage, maybe?

 

[Curious]

I value your decades of experience but I don’t think tennis is exact science. Don’t you see it’s still more like religion? Everyone has a different view a lot of the time on a lot of things. There are very few absolutes. I believe there are many ways of doing things including tennis strokes.

 

[Sir Weed]

I value your decades of experience but I don’t think tennis is exact science. Don’t you see it’s still more like religion? Everyone has a different view a lot of the time on a lot of things. There are very few absolutes. I believe there are many ways of doing things including tennis strokes.

Tennis isn't nondeterministic, is it? Tennis is more like a religion?! What the f ...

Tennis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_(disambiguation)

 

[Curious]

Tennis isn't nondeterministic, is it? Tennis is more like a religion?! What the f ...

Tennis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_(disambiguation)

Well, you get my point, don’t you? If so many people consider Kovacs an expert and another expert here says he has no faith in him my brain starts questioning. Yours doesn’t?

 

[Sir Weed]

Well, you get my point, don’t you? If so many people consider Kovacs an expert and another expert here says he has no faith in him my brain starts questioning. Yours doesn’t?

No, I don't get your point. Nobody does.

 

[Sir Weed]

This is a smalltalk board. Sorry to break that for you.

 

[tennis3]

As the Serve Doc, inventor of the A.P. Belt training system of products and having written and produced a multitude of instructional productions including 2 dozen under the Bollettieri brand plus 40 years of teaching....here's what I've learned most.

I love your stuff, thanks. Especially your MPH and Sonic Serve videos.

 

[Sir Weed]

But yeah, most tennis coaches are trustworthy as used cars salesmen.

 

[Serve Doc]

Well, you get my point, don’t you? If so many people consider Kovacs an expert and another expert here says he has no faith in him my brain starts questioning. Yours doesn’t?

Many PHDs earn their title based on one myopic thesis and parlay it into selling themselves as experts in everything. that makes money...quite common and enough said on that.

It is basic science and those who can't understand it treat it like it's a religion or just enjoy giving their sermon. Not as complicated as we'd like to think and keeping it simple whenever possible works if it is effective methods in use.

 

[Curious]

Many PHDs earn their title based on one myopic thesis and parlay it into selling themselves as experts in everything. that makes money...quite common and enough said on that.

It is basic science and those who can't understand it treat it like it's a religion or just enjoy giving their sermon. Not as complicated as we'd like to think and keeping it simple whenever possible works if it is effective methods in use.

It wasn’t just about his PhD. You know, there are a lot of online coaches, also others like Moratouglu, J.Yandell, yourself, R.Macci, former players like Salzenstein, and many others in between. And we always see conflicting views among them about ‘basic science’ type of tennis technique. Isn’t it normal to get confused and question who’s telling the truth?

 

[Serve Doc]

I value your decades of experience but I don’t think tennis is exact science. Don’t you see it’s still more like religion? Everyone has a different view a lot of the time on a lot of things. There are very few absolutes. I believe there are many ways of doing things including tennis strokes.

You are likely confusing style aspects that package a different look but if it's solid technique then the fundamentals are functioning properly. Day 1 in my coach training is how to identify, separate and essentially disregard style and to focus on what basic fundamentals need to be focused on

 

[Curious]

You are likely confusing style aspects that package a different look but if it's solid technique then the fundamentals are functioning properly. Day 1 in my coach training is how to identify, separate and essentially disregard style and to focus on what basic fundamentals need to be focused on

Then I’d have expected you and Kovacs or Macci have no disagreement on fundamentals of technique. Can you say that’s the case?

 

[Serve Doc]

It wasn’t just about his PhD. You know, there are a lot of online coaches, also others like Moratouglu, J.Yandell, yourself, R.Macci, former players like Salzenstein, and many others in between. And we always see conflicting views among them about ‘basic science’ type of tennis technique. Isn’t it normal to get confused and question who’s telling the truth?

I grew up frustrated with world tennis and tennis magazine etc featuring "experts" in each issue and many conflicted with previous content published by others on same topic a month earlier in same mag.

Keep in mind this industry has been full of so-called experts who can't agree on much because they are trying to carve out their own chunk of market with something different than anyone else. Consumers pay the price of misguided advice and mags only care about the ads between the articles and not the content in between

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

As the Serve Doc

I am using platform stance. As I load and move through trophy,
I imagine the weight is evenly distributed on both feet. 50/50. See Fed pic below.

After that, I stay relaxed and let the racquet drop behind the back and then swing up to contact.
The weight will naturally shift more towards front foot or do whatever it wants to do.

Is that a good approach Serve Doc?

 

[Curious]

Keep in mind this industry has been full of so-called experts who can't agree on much because they are trying to carve out their own chunk of market with something different than anyone else. Consumers pay the price of misguided advice and mags only care about the ads between the articles and not the content in between

I feel this sort of supports my point.

 

[Serve Doc]

I am using platform stance. As I load and move through trophy,
I imagine the weight is evenly distributed on both feet. 50/50. See Fed pic below.

After that, I stay relaxed and let the racquet drop behind the back and then swing up to contact.
The weight will naturally shift more towards front foot or do whatever it wants to do.

Is that a good approach Serve Doc?

If you can release toss when forward in stance and get the hips to rise forward and upward to contact ....you can do fine with platform stance

 

[AnyPUG]

It wasn’t just about his PhD. You know, there are a lot of online coaches, also others like Moratouglu, J.Yandell, yourself, R.Macci, former players like Salzenstein, and many others in between. And we always see conflicting views among them about ‘basic science’ type of tennis technique. Isn’t it normal to get confused and question who’s telling the truth?

Everyone is telling the truth because there is one truth and many ways to say it.
Key to success is to stop complaining and start appreciating.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Not as complicated as we'd like to think

Yay! Somebody people will listen to is saying this also.

 

[mad dog1]

It wasn’t just about his PhD. You know, there are a lot of online coaches, also others like Moratouglu, J.Yandell, yourself, R.Macci, former players like Salzenstein, and many others in between. And we always see conflicting views among them about ‘basic science’ type of tennis technique. Isn’t it normal to get confused and question who’s telling the truth?

If you understand the fundamentals, it is easy to know who is offering accurate information.

 

[mad dog1]

It wasn’t just about his PhD. You know, there are a lot of online coaches, also others like Moratouglu, J.Yandell, yourself, R.Macci, former players like Salzenstein, and many others in between. And we always see conflicting views among them about ‘basic science’ type of tennis technique. Isn’t it normal to get confused and question who’s telling the truth?

Only the weak and feeble minded get confused.

 

[mad dog1]

Many PHDs earn their title based on one myopic thesis and parlay it into selling themselves as experts in everything. that makes money...quite common and enough said on that.

It is basic science and those who can't understand it treat it like it's a religion or just enjoy giving their sermon. Not as complicated as we'd like to think and keeping it simple whenever possible works if it is effective methods in use.

The fundamentals of tennis are simple but consistent execution is not easy.

 

[Curious]

I

If you understand the fundamentals, it is easy to know who is offering accurate information.

It’s no secret I often get derailed from fundamentals. But if fundamentals were enough or indisputable wouldn’t there be only a total of 10-15 tennis tutorial videos on YouTube?

 

[LuckyR]

In my experience, the written word is next to useless in teaching technique (stroke mechanics), whereas it is great for teaching strategy, tactics, fitness, nutrition etc.

 

[mad dog1]

I

It’s no secret I often get derailed from fundamentals. But if fundamentals were enough or indisputable wouldn’t there be only a total of 10-15 tennis tutorial videos on YouTube?

It’s abundantly clear that you don’t understand the fundamentals based on every post you make.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Only the weak and feeble minded get confused.

This is not YouTube. We don’t need these types of personal attacks on this forum

 

[mad dog1]

This is not YouTube. We don’t need these types of personal attacks on this forum

It is a statement, not an attack at a specific individual. If you felt it was an attack, perhaps there’s some self projection going on.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It is a statement, not an attack at a specific individual. If you felt it was an attack, perhaps there’s some self projection going on.

Not an honest answer. It’s a veiled personal attack. This is the kind of crap that escalated and gets threads deleted.

Pls stop.

 

[mad dog1]

Ok, then it’s a thinly veiled personal attack. This is the kind of crap that gets threads deleted. Pls stop.

Nothing thin. Nothing veiled. There’s tons of content/instruction available on YouTube. Some good. A lot of not so good. If one understands the simple fundamentals of tennis, it’s easy to differentiate the good from the bad.

 

[AnyPUG]

This is not YouTube. We don’t need these types of personal attacks on this forum

It was not a personal attack in the slightest. He made that statement because.. wait.. he was confused.

 

[mcs1970]

Awesome to see the great @Serve Doc here. I have fwd the cylinder serve video to quite a few folks.

 

[Serve Doc]

Happy to pass along what I've been fortunate enough to learn on my journey especially to such a great bunch of enthusiasts with inquiring minds. There's nothing to argue about....only to observe and exchange thoughts, experiences and ideas together. We need to revive and save Tennis before all our courts get converted to Pickleball...

 

[johnmccabe]

@Serve Doc
I'm happy with my general serve motion and max ball speed. I learned to hit all the main serve types. If I decrease pace, I can place some serve types at desired target with decent percentage. But I would like to have the placement and percentage without dropping pace too much. How should I design my serve practice?

I struggled with kick serve on pinpoint stance, especially on deuce side. So I went back to platform stance to learn it. Now I can hit kick serve on both sides with pinpoint and reasonable confidence. but the pace is not as good as I like, mainly because my contact point is only slightly inside the baseline. Does it sound like I'm on the right path to learn kick? How to hit a kick more reliably with a toss further into the court? Thank you!

 

[Serve Doc]

@Serve Doc
I'm happy with my general serve motion and max ball speed. I learned to hit all the main serve types. If I decrease pace, I can place some serve types at desired target with decent percentage. But I would like to have the placement and percentage without dropping pace too much. How should I design my serve practice?

I struggled with kick serve on pinpoint stance, especially on deuce side. So I went back to platform stance to learn it. Now I can hit kick serve on both sides with pinpoint and reasonable confidence. but the pace is not as good as I like, mainly because my contact point is only slightly inside the baseline. Does it sound like I'm on the right path to learn kick? How to hit a kick more reliably with a toss further into the court? Thank you!

You must exaggerate shoulder turn in the wind up to get inside edge of ball to create kick spin. Experiment with grip adjustments towards backhand side of the grip in very small increments to control depth of serve and you'll find the results that build confidence enabling you to swing aggressively under pressure

 

[5263]

What do you think can actually be helpful on a message board like this, or Facebook, or YouTube? Because all the dissecting talks happen because we are actually not receiving this as on-court try-observe-feedback sequence… I cannot get pals with me to help me improve my serve or FH, I can at best post a video, gather feedback, and work with it for weeks or even months.

How can this online training actually be better, based on your experience?

I'm not sure what tennis doc means about level of detail or why he thinks he can replace the old tennis Doc at IMG (or is this him?), but this might be a good time to share how some of the Details I've shared with you online have greatly helped your game to grow over the yrs. Along with you, I have 2 of the top jrs in Italy and the top 11 yr girl player in Thailand along with a host of others... as I write this I have I'm about to head out with a top US player and his coach I help, who came to me for these type of details and that just helped him have the best tournament of his life. (especially his serving)

As the guy who wrote the Serve Code several yrs back and probably worked with more 135 mph+ servers than any other coach, (developed both my sons past this level), I can confidently say that these details matter if you expect to serve big and execute them consistently. Maybe I don't understand what he is trying to say.

 

[5263]

If you understand the fundamentals, it is easy to know who is offering accurate information.

yes, but so few understand the fundamentals

 

[5263]

You are likely confusing style aspects that package a different look but if it's solid technique then the fundamentals are functioning properly. Day 1 in my coach training is how to identify, separate and essentially disregard style and to focus on what basic fundamentals need to be focused on

Do you also separate out aspects of amplitude?

 

[Serve Doc]

Same Serve Dr. from IMG as before. Based on talent, aspirations and commitment to growth I will challenge players to reach their potential using logical progressions. I too see the intricate style details but feel the magic with higher level players is to know just what to say and no more. Too much technical talk can easily distract and derail them more than help them reach the desired results.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Got instant results with the "power up and over the mountain" Serve Doc mph video tip.
There are no shortcuts but sometimes a tip will instantly click.

 

[Serve Doc]

I'm not sure what tennis doc means about level of detail or why he thinks he can replace the old tennis Doc at IMG (or is this him?), but this might be a good time to share how some of the Details I've shared with you online have greatly helped your game to grow over the yrs. Along with you, I have 2 of the top jrs in Italy and the top 11 yr girl player in Thailand along with a host of others... as I write this I have I'm about to head out with a top US player and his coach I help, who came to me for these type of details and that just helped him have the best tournament of his life. (especially his serving)

As the guy who wrote the Serve Code several yrs back and probably worked with more 135 mph+ servers than any other coach, (developed both my sons past this level), I can confidently say that these details matter if you expect to serve big and execute them consistently. Maybe I don't understand what he is trying to say.

Happy for your success doing it your way but don't know who you are or who you produced and I can assure you I've been integral in developing many top servers in my career doing it my way. To each his own and if your methods are superior feel free to publish, produce instructional content or share for discussion with the community here as you and not 5263.

 

[Dragy]

Happy for your success doing it your way but don't know who you are or who you produced and I can assure you I've been integral in developing many top servers in my career doing it my way. To each his own and if your methods are superior feel free to publish, produce instructional content or share for discussion with the community here as you and not 5263.

@5263 actually does share his methods via https://www.congruenttennis.com/

Here’s is his serve-related article:

The Serve Code: Primer

I hope you can relate to this simple organization of the 4 phases of serve fundamentals. A series of articles will follow that explain each

www.congruenttennis.com

 

[5263]

Happy for your success doing it your way but don't know who you are or who you produced and I can assure you I've been integral in developing many top servers in my career doing it my way. To each his own and if your methods are superior feel free to publish, produce instructional content or share for discussion with the community here as you and not 5263.

so you are the "Serve Doc", but it is not ok for me to be 5263 on here for 20 yrs? I noticed in this quote here, you didn't bother to answer my question about who you were. I now see where you did answer in a different comment, so thanks Pat.

Since this is Pat, I'm happy to vouch for what an overall good coach he is with a long and productive career of helping players, but that doesn't mean that I won't take issue with issues I see as a problem, just as I would expect him to do with my tips.

Also why I had a question as to who this was, there is a new young coach calling himself the Serve Doctor now as well.....Instagram I think.
I also questioned if it was you when you suggested you didn't know me, since we have mutual friends who said you did.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

3) Coaches are far too focused on minuscule style details like they're dissecting a frog in Biology class and can't differentiate style from meaningful fundamental components.

Why I am a fan of Nik and intuitive tennis. I'll get around to watching the serve vid soon, but want to give it proper time before thanking/commenting.

 

[5263]

Well, you get my point, don’t you? If so many people consider Kovacs an expert and another expert here says he has no faith in him my brain starts questioning. Yours doesn’t?

I'd say it is a little more like the old martial arts model, where students defended their Instructor and style as the best, because of course they went to train where they thought it was the best.
Then Bruce Lee came along and used the best training from all the styles to bring them into his own personal style. Very good in some ways for those willing to do the study, but maybe not so good for the avg guy who doesn't have the time or ability to make these decisions.
Both approaches are valid to an extent, right?

That is why with my Congruent Method I offer a type of open source approach that is a of a hybrid of these 2 ways and gives you the option to just follow the whole system but is more of an open source type approach, that is fine with adding anything you prefer or find to be helpful for your game for the level you are currently playing.

 

[5263]

I too see the intricate style details but feel the magic with higher level players is to know just what to say and no more. Too much technical talk can easily distract and derail them more than help them reach the desired results.

Ok from this I can see we are very much on the same track with this, but I just would say it very differently. Maybe your way is better and can get thru better, lol.

But from my point of view, the true fundamentals ARE the Details and the technical talk should center around these.

So I wouldn't speak out against detail and technical talk as much as I'd try to narrow that down to a more targeted and focused path. I have, for over a decade, been sharing and expressing the difference between fundamentals vs style as well as amplitude in stroke production. I've also written articles on this and my writing has been featured in 5 books in just the last year and a half related to this topic. I've also started threads here to discuss what posters find to be key fundamentals or various strokes.

I think you have done some fine work over the years, but instead of going after "Most Coaches" as you did in the OP, maybe to focus more on attacking the problems of confusing style and amplitude with issues of fundamentals would be better. Maybe I'm wrong, but attacking "Most Coaches" is the style of comment that has tended to divide our industry the most over the years.

Or maybe your approach is better and you will help to further the message about the need to learn more about fundamentals of strokes and have less concern over style and amplitude.

 

[5263]

I've been integral in developing many top servers in my career doing it my way.

Maybe you can help us by sharing some of the Style details that you see discussed too much along with some of the key fundamentals you have isolated?