Serve the Jay Berger way?

[5263]

As the arm and racket continues to move upward, the wrist moves to a neutral position at contact. Some may refer to this wrist action as "wrist snap". However, I abhor that term.

I agree and think it's more like a trebuchet....where there is no wrist snap, although it gets that same accel over the top.

This one even seems to have a cam that acts a bit like ISR maybe...

http://fourriverscharter.org/projects/Inventions/images/china_trebuchet1.jpg

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yeah forehand is ulnar to radial whereas serve is radial to ulnar. Why don't you like "snap?" I'm ambivalent on the term.

Do not like the term because I have seen waaay too many novice and intermediate players employ excessive wrist flexion when instructed to "snap the wrist". Seen this problem in tennis as well as badminton. The wrist does move but it does not need to go much past neutral, if at all, after contact. Many who attempt to snap the wrist, often will show an extreme flexion at/after contact.

 

[user92626]

Awesome, topspin and SA,

So, after contact you need to intentionally bend the wrist forward to keep the racket head away from the legs, right? (From hitting the leg )

I think I always have that configuration in mind so I never really tried to flex the wrist.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ No, I would not bend the wrist forward (wrist flexion) on the follow-thru at all. Do not need it to avoid hitting the leg. Sampras and others bend the elbow rather than the wrist after contact -- the "dirty diaper" according to Jeff S.

Also, the torso continues to rotate after contact so that the racket arm usually comes across the front and around to the other side of the body. Some players, like Fabrice Santoro (below), did not do this for twist/kick serves. For these serves, he ended on the same side of the body, but well away from the legs.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Awesome, topspin and SA,

So, after contact you need to intentionally bend the wrist forward to keep the racket head away from the legs, right? (From hitting the leg )

I think I always have that configuration in mind so I never really tried to flex the wrist.

No. Just keep a loose arm and throw the racket up to the ball. Your wrist may or may not flex forward past neutral after contact; this flexion is completely passive. In the racket drop, the wrist should be laid back fully, but again, this comes from a loose wrist, not an active cocking motion. The racket should finish on the left side of your body and not hit you in the leg unless you completely buckle over after contact or don't swing up to the ball properly.

 

[dlam]

SA I think you are just too harsh on Jay Berger style
It might look unconventional but he has good rhythm for his service motion
He's consistent and does get good speed on his serves
Agassi abbreviated serve isn't the same
Agassi has some windup and whereas Berger essential "pumps" the racket behind the back
Agassi abbreviated windup has some features similiar to Rafter in that he winds up with the arms going straight up rather than around the back that most players do

 

[TennisCJC]

Shortstops in baseball don't wind up and frequently they go into trophy pose and take a hop before throwing.

Rafael Furcal was a short stop that could throw absolute ropes with no windup.

I don't think there is much velocity lost if any by starting in the trophy pose.

 

[heninfan99]

I prefer the abbreviated motions of Roddick, Gasquet & etc. To start from the racket drop robs you of momentum and power.

 

[user92626]

SA and Top,

I see what you mean.

The server in SA's post is clever. He's using the wrist in the way I picture and seemly runs into the problem I perceive also, so that's why he doesn't have much of a followthrough, at least a natural, decent looking one like Fed does.

The way I served before was like you were trying to put your arm over a friend's shoulder but for the racket head to go down, point down substantially you'd need to bend just the wrist. The racket follows through on the same side but gradually travels across the body and finally tucks away on the other side, no?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Story on Jay Berger's first US Open & Reason for the Unusual Serve

Story on Jay Berger's first US Open.
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-09-02/sports/sp-23038_1_jay-berger

According to the story, he used the unusual serve to protect his shoulder that had been separated 4 times.

 

[dlam]

Shortstops in baseball don't wind up and frequently they go into trophy pose and take a hop before throwing.

Rafael Furcal was a short stop that could throw absolute ropes with no windup.

I don't think there is much velocity lost if any by starting in the trophy pose.

Shortstops need to release quickly to get a first base out.
Windup creates more velocity.
isnt that why pitchers windup and shortstops dont?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

SA I think you are just too harsh on Jay Berger style
...

Not really. There is no reason to perform the superfluous elbow/shoulder gyrations that Berger does. His high elbow position at the beginning can be somewhat stressful to the shoulder & rotator cuff. It could take its toll after a decade or so of serving this way. It can be done much cleaner & simpler in a manner that is potentially less taxing on the shoulder/rotator muscles. Below is the modified Agassi serve that I was talking about -- it is not his normal serve motion at all. The 2nd link is Todd Martin's implementation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs&t=34s

The action used by Andre and Todd is a bit different than the abbreviated takeback of Salzenstein or Roddick. For the most part, they put the right arm & racket into position before commencing the serve. For Jeff and Andy, the takeback seems to be part of the service motion a bit more. Kind of splitting hairs on this tho'.

While I do recommend half-serve (trophy serve) or an abbreviated takeback serve, after seeing the Jay Berger serve, I would not use him as a model.

 

[dlam]

Not really. There is no reason to perform the superfluous elbow/shoulder gyrations that Berger does. His high elbow position at the beginning can be somewhat stressful to the shoulder & rotator cuff. It could take its toll after a decade or so of serving this way. It can be done much cleaner & simpler in a manner that is potentially less taxing on the shoulder/rotator muscles. Below is the modified Agassi serve that I was talking about -- it is not his normal serve motion at all. The 2nd link is Todd Martin's implementation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs&t=34s

The action used by Andre and Todd is a bit different than the abbreviated takeback of Salzenstein or Roddick. For the most part, they put the right arm & racket into position before commencing the serve. For Jeff and Andy, the takeback seems to be part of the service motion a bit more. Kind of splitting hairs on this tho'.

While I do recommend half-serve (trophy serve) or an abbreviated takeback serve, after seeing the Jay Berger serve, I would not use him as a model.

I guess we have to agree to disagree then
i have to say that rhythm is just as important as mechanics.
If a student has a certain body motion sequence that is odd like the Berger serve and he's winning with that serve, I dont think its neccessary change it to look "conventional"
BTW Andre and Todd do have a takeaway and i agree its different from Jeff and Andy.
Jay has NO takeaway, so you can compare takeaway of Jay when he has none.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ I implore you to take it from someone=me who has experienced serious shoulder/rotator cuff problems from improper overhead mechanics. I wish I knew 25 years ago, what I know now about proper mechanics and repetitive motion injuries of the shoulder.

Many tennis players in their 40s and 50s that I know have developed shoulder issues, primarily from their tennis service motion. Even some pros in their 20s have developed rotator and other shoulder problems. Tennis players, baseball players, volleyball players and others are all susceptible to these types of problems -- even with decent motions but especially with substandard or sub-optimal overhead motions.

Whenever I see a high elbow (wrt the shoulder tilt line), a red flag goes up. I have talked about this with my chiro as well as some athletic trainers and physical trainers. The following videos from Ellenbecker and McLennan have shed quite a bit of light on the shoulder issue:

http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&media_type_id=3&Media_FileURL=&media_name=todd%20ellenbecker&media_desc=&media_status=1&media_preview=1&show=100&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=&AssetCategory=&basicsearch=1&ATT=&LineNbr=1&StartRow=1&ts=1
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6eix2_angle-of-racquet-on-serve_sport

I strongly suggest that you watch these video before dismissing possible shoulder/rotator injury.

 

[boramiNYC]

SA, the red flag is not always necessary for high elbow. It just means they're using the elbow lift less. If that causes s bad form at the contact it'll cause problem. But if the form at contact is good it'll be ok albeit not as efficient or effective as possible.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ I do agree that the angle of the racket arm (& elbow) wrt the shoulder line at contact is important -- the elbow/arm should not be too much higher than the shoulder tilt line. This is why it s important to drop the front (tossing arm) shoulder. This yields a steeper shoulder tilt at contact which allows the racket arm to reach up for the ball w/o impinging the shoulder.

The racket angle at contact that Jim McLennan suggests (in my 2nd link above) will also put the upper arm in a more favorable angle wrt to the shoulder line. By angling the racket as JM indicates, the racket arm is less likely to cause a shoulder impingement at contact.

However it is not just at contact that undue stress to the shoulder/rotator can occur according to Todd Ellenbecker (1st video link). He indicates that the reason we run into trouble is that the rotator cuff is taxed (virtually) "throughout the entire phase of serving". He further indicates that rubbing (impingement) occurs whenever the (upper) arm is raised above the shoulder line...

 

[crash1929]

Could not find any videos of Berger's serve motion. Did he start the racket from the trophy position? Did he start with the throat of the racket resting on the clavicle of his serving shoulder? Some other variation?

what ? really this is a travesty.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

what ? really this is a travesty.

Fear not. While is was difficult to find images or videos of Berger's serve back in 2012 when this thread was started, I was able to find an extended sample of his quirky serve motion that had been uploaded earlier this year. See post #30 for that link.

 

[Chas Tennis]

There is a good close-up of Berger's start position at 28:37 (break point) but it goes to the overall view for the serve. Other good shots in this long match video that is over an hour long?

I don't use Facebook. Does Berger have a FB page?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ 'tis a shame that the closeup does not stay on him very long:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ&t=28m34s

A bit more later on. Also a shame that we don't have a HD/slow-mo of his action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Unmk4r3JQ&t=31m44s

 

[5263]

^ I do agree that the angle of the racket arm (& elbow) wrt the shoulder line at contact is important -- the elbow/arm should not be too much higher than the shoulder tilt line. This is why it s important to drop the front (tossing arm) shoulder. This yields a steeper shoulder tilt at contact which allows the racket arm to reach up for the ball w/o impinging the shoulder.

The racket angle at contact that Jim McLennan suggests (in my 2nd link above) will also put the upper arm in a more favorable angle wrt to the shoulder line. By angling the racket as JM indicates, the racket arm is less likely to cause a shoulder impingement at contact.

However it is not just at contact that undue stress to the shoulder/rotator can occur according to Todd Ellenbecker (1st video link). He indicates that the reason we run into trouble is that the rotator cuff is taxed (virtually) "throughout the entire phase of serving". He further indicates that rubbing (impingement) occurs whenever the (upper) arm is raised above the shoulder line...

I think this post is so important and have worked with this for years. Imo well stated here....Should be a sticky

 

[Simon_the_furry]

I'm having shoulder problems and have taken to serving this way.

How can I improve the pace while keeping the racquet resting on the shoulder?

 

[borg number one]

Here’s video of him here vs. Agassi in 1990.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I'm having shoulder problems and have taken to serving this way.

How can I improve the pace while keeping the racquet resting on the shoulder?

I read that Jay Berger adopted his serving style because his shoulder had come out of its joint a few times. I would check that out.

A common cause of shoulder pain and injury is impingement. If you have pain your should stop stressing the shoulder. Study the Todd Ellenbecker video "Rotator Cuff Injury" and the many posts on the forum on shoulder pain and serving. The upper arm should only go up to a limited angle or else the humerus can rub on the acromion. Various tissues may be injured by impingement. I believe that this applies to the high level serving technique. Other techniques, who knows?

 

[Kiam]

Jay Berger has simple but effective way of serving.
He basically starts the serve motion by putting the racket over the right shoulder

I thinking this is so odd, he gets to the back scratch position right away .

Then I thinking, all good servers look slightly different in their deliveries.

However...

All good servers look the same from about the trophy position until contact , so why not simplify the serve the Jay Berger way?

i thinking this may be an effective way to learn and practice the service motion by fast forward to the backscratch position at the vert start of the serve.

As one gets more coordinated with their motion and rhythm then one may wish to abandon this.

Thoughts?

i know some of you dont like the BS position.

I recently tried it and hit effortless serves harder than I ever had, without even using much knee bend. It made me realize that with my normal motion, I don't get the elbow up high enough. I think it's the better way to teach the serve....add the legs later

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I recently tried it and hit effortless serves harder than I ever had, without even using much knee bend. It made me realize that with my normal motion, I don't get the elbow up high enough. I think it's the better way to teach the serve....add the legs later

There's better implementations of an abbreviated serve motion or a half-serve motion than Jay Berger's convoluted prep motion. Have prev posted a video of Agassi employing a half serve motion in the early 1990s. Todd Martin was teaching a decent simplified serve (more than a decade ago).

Check out Jeff Salzenstein videos on the helf serve motion.

 

[Kiam]

There's better implementations of an abbreviated serve motion or a half-serve motion than Jay Berger's convoluted prep motion. Have prev posted a video of Agassi employing a half serve motion in the early 1990s. Todd Martin was teaching a decent simplified serve (more than a decade ago).

Check out Jeff Salzenstein videos on the helf serve motion.

will do. Thanks.

 

[dlam]

Could not find any videos of Berger's serve motion. Did he start the racket from the trophy position? Did he start with the throat of the racket resting on the clavicle of his serving shoulder? Some other variation?

For an old guy like yourself I’m Surprise that you don’t know about Berger
He was very good player in the 80s+ 90s. Highest rank was 7th in the world
It’s the more noticeable part of his game was that odd setup when serving
Did you take up tennis later in life?

 

[dlam]

I recently tried it and hit effortless serves harder than I ever had, without even using much knee bend. It made me realize that with my normal motion, I don't get the elbow up high enough. I think it's the better way to teach the serve....add the legs later

That’s great Congrats
Just start of with the simple drills and build from there
Too much overthinking on this board
It leads to paralyze by over analyze

 

[dlam]

Interestingly. Jay Berger’s son Daniel has an odd unconventional backswing in his golf swing
Must run in the family
Dan’s highest rank was was 12th in the world

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For an old guy like yourself I’m Surprise that you don’t know about Berger
He was very good player in the 80s+ 90s. Highest rank was 7th in the world
It’s the more noticeable part of his game was that odd setup when serving
Did you take up tennis later in life?

@mcs1970

You misinterpreted my post. I was aware of Jay Berger & his truncated motion. But I was also aware that his "abbreviated" implementation incorporated an unconventional (weird) pre-trophy preparation. I had indicated that it was not easy to find good (closeup) videos of his weird service motion back in 2012. However, later in the thread (in 2014), I did find an appropriate video that clearly showed his idiosyncratic motion.

I do not recommend that players try to copy his unique implementation. There are much better examples of the half-serve or abbreviated rhythm serve.

 

[mcs1970]

@mcs1970

You misinterpreted my post. I was aware of Jay Berger & his truncated motion. But I was also aware that his "abbreviated" implementation incorporated an unconventional (weird) pre-trophy preparation. I was indicated that it was not easy to find good (closeup) videos of his weird service motion back in 2012. However, a few posts later, I did find an appropriate video that clearly showed his idiosyncratic motion.

I do not recommend that players try to copy his unique implementation. There are much better examples of the half-serve or abbreviated rhythm serve.

I had done that motion for a while and while my serves were very consistent there was nothing else on it. Plus it is the only time in my life I got severe tennis elbow as well. Maybe a coincidence or maybe using the elbow drop and not properly using the kinetic chain caused me to get that.

Lesson learned. Better to stay away from specific idiosyncrasies that works for certain pros.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For an old guy like yourself I’m Surprise that you don’t know about Berger
He was very good player in the 80s+ 90s. Highest rank was 7th in the world
It’s the more noticeable part of his game was that odd setup when serving
Did you take up tennis later in life?

It appears that Jay B peaked around '89/'90 and did not stay in the top 10 very long after that. He was not usually making it to the later rounds in the larger venues. He made it to the QF round in '89 at RG & USO but, other than that, he was not making it to the later rounds at the majors. This is why that it's not easy to find decent vids of his game.

I took up tennis just before turning 21 -- some 5 decades ago. However, I was focused on playing competitive badminton during much of the 1980s. I returned to competitive tennis in the early 90s. Did not see much of Jay B at that time since he retired from competition in '91 (he was only 24 or 25 when he retired).

 

[Chas Tennis]

I have a vague recollection that Jay Berger was the one that said something about the 'racket leaking into the racket drop ''.

At the time of racket drop, I believe that forces should be applied by body motions to cause some additional External Shoulder Rotation (ESR) as well as Thoracic Extension should occur to increase ESR. That is my interpretation of what high speed videos show. The racket can be placed into the racket drop without effective use of body motions. That increases the range of motion available for racket forward acceleration but the Internal Shoulder Rotation muscles have not been stretched as much as in a high level serve.

Jay Berger is a thoughtful analysist. Here he has a volley drill.

In past years he may have had things to say about his serve that have been lost. ? [Since Jay Berger retired in 1991 and the earth shattering research on the tennis serve - that ISR was supplying most of the power during impact was not published until 1995 - the information available to him on the serve would have been very limited.

 

[Chas Tennis]

It appears that Jay B peaked around '89/'90 and did not stay in the top 10 very long after that. He was not usually making it to the later rounds in the larger venues. He made it to the QF round in '89 at RG & USO but, other than that, he was not making it to the later rounds at the majors. This is why that it's not easy to find decent vids of his game.

I took up tennis just before turning 21 -- some 5 decades ago. However, I was focused on playing competitive badminton during much of the 1980s. I returned to competitive tennis in the early 90s. Did not see much of Jay B at that time since he retired from competition in '91 (he was only 24 or 25 when he retired).

Hour long match video. Announcers are discussing serve in early minutes.

Jay Berger may have more Youtubes.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Another thread with poster that does Jay Berger's 'racket leak' (according to my post.)

I strugged with the racket drop on my serve for quite a while, not unlike some other posters here (JackB?). I would have good racket drop on a shadow swing, but the old muscle memory of shallow or no drop would kick in the moment i stepped to the basline and tossed the ball.

I stopped obsessively recording myself in slow motion and watching the video every few serves while practicing and decided to practice for a couple of months without recording. It now seems like I have a good (not great) racket drop compared to before.

Here's my recording from this week:

Here's my serve from last year at the 9 second mark:

And my serve from 6 months ago at the 31 second mark:

I'm happy that I've made progress without obsessing over the racket drop. Reading on these forums probably helped more than the online courses i'd purchased. i forget who, but the person who called it racket-leave-behind as opposed to racket-drop probably deserves the most credit.

If you can point to anything obvious i'm still doing wrong(in the first video), please let me know!

Great video shows your elbow drop in detail. What camera and frame rate?

Find some high level serve videos from the same camera angle or - this is easier - find a model serve video and then take a video from the same camera angle. You need a detailed comparison now.

First thought is that your hand should be moving forward when the racket drops. I don't believe that it does but I'd have to compare side-by-side to be sure. If not, I'd suspect that you are moving the racket there and not using body motions than move the racket back and might stretch muscles more. Compare the forward translation of the hand for your serve to that of a high level serve when the racket moves down. Watch your shoulder translate also, up and forward.

Jay Burger called putting the racket down early to a checkpoint as "the racket leaking".

Kinovea, free open source, allows side-by-side comparisons and is not that difficult to use. I recommend Version 8.25 or later version that also allows the count down time scale to impact at "0" time, a great feature. If anybody is interested I'll post the links.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Some history with details of Berger's serve.

Jay Berger - The Man With The Back-Scratch Serve - Tennis Grandstand

The following is a chapter excerpt on Jay Berger from Sandy Harwitt’s book “The Greatest Jewish Tennis Players of All Time” (for sale here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/193755936X/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_x_RIZZyb1KGTC5C It sounds very cliched to say, but nonetheless is very true: Trying to catch up with...

tennisgrandstand.com

Search: Jay Berger - The Man with the Back-Scratch Serve - Tennis Grandstand

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Hour long match video. Announcers are discussing serve in early minutes.

Jay Berger may have more Youtubes.

Thanks, but old news. I already posted this (post #29) in 2014, a year & a half after the OP. (Note that this video was not up on YT back in 2012)

 

[Kiam]

It appears that Jay B peaked around '89/'90 and did not stay in the top 10 very long after that. He was not usually making it to the later rounds in the larger venues. He made it to the QF round in '89 at RG & USO but, other than that, he was not making it to the later rounds at the majors. This is why that it's not easy to find decent vids of his game.

I took up tennis just before turning 21 -- some 5 decades ago. However, I was focused on playing competitive badminton during much of the 1980s. I returned to competitive tennis in the early 90s. Did not see much of Jay B at that time since he retired from competition in '91 (he was only 24 or 25 when he retired).

Another cool thing about him was that he used cheap rackets....the kind of bargan racket you could buy off the wall in Walmart....

 

[ollinger]

Another cool thing about him was that he used cheap rackets....the kind of bargan racket you could buy off the wall in Walmart....

Huh?? I believe he used the POGOS.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Another cool thing about him was that he used cheap rackets....the kind of bargan racket you could buy off the wall in Walmart....

I believe he was using Prince Pro rackets. It appears that Prince developed this racket in the late '70s (1979?) and made them for a sevrral years in the early '80s (until '83 or '84). Jay might have been still be using this racket in the late 80s & early 90s. If so, he was likely buying used / bargain rackets from various sources.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Huh?? I believe he used the POGOS.

Prince Pro, with a plastic throat. Don't know if he ever used the POG. Perhaps later.

 

[TennisCJC]

I used the Prince Pro with the plastic throat piece. When the first Prince graphite came out around 1980, it was all graphite and a really good racket but it was $300 when it hit the market. In 1980, my rent was $300 per month for a 2 bedroom apartment in a decent area around Atlanta. The Prince Pro with the plastic throat came out a little later and the price was much lower. It was a good racket but not as good as the all graphite frame. The plastic throat piece and possible a thinner beam gave it a less consistent response. I strung it around 60+ lbs with nylon to try to control the launch angle and response. Anyhow, it was Prince's attempt to produce a cheaper frame for those that couldn't afford the all graphite frame. Within a few years, there were tons of graphite frames hitting the market and racket prices dropped and the Prince Pro disappeared.