Serve Video Advice (3.0/3.5 w/ 120 mph - yes, while true I believe, that was to attract attention!)

WildVolley

Legend
I thought serve speed is measured as the ball goes over the net not right off the racquet strings?

The serve speed displayed at professional matches is supposed to be peak speed, which is just off the racquet face.

To find the measured speed at the net, the radar would have to time the decrease in ball speed along with the ball position. That's asking a lot.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
The serve speed displayed at professional matches is supposed to be peak speed, which is just off the racquet face.

To find the measured speed at the net, the radar would have to time the decrease in ball speed along with the ball position. That's asking a lot.
Yes, but most rec measurements use speed check or something to measure near the net, using the net to protect the radar receiver. This gives an off angle speed that is nearer to net and seems way low compared to pros. Not that everyone can serve 130, but in reality, players do much better than many think, if they could get a speed measurement that is apples to apples with what the pro's system provides. Imo, most players serve 5-15mph faster than what they can record with whatever system they can rig up. This seems to hold a bit true based on the video methods of measure, where we have seen some pretty good speeds calculated. I guess the video methods have a bias to figure what the initial speed was, because an avg speed traveled from serve to receiver would be roughly a fourth off, right?
 

WildVolley

Legend
Yes, but most rec measurements use speed check or something to measure near the net, using the net to protect the radar receiver. This gives an off angle speed that is nearer to net and seems way low compared to pros. Not that everyone can serve 130, but in reality, players do much better than many think, if they could get a speed measurement that is apples to apples with what the pro's system provides. Imo, most players serve 5-15mph faster than what they can record with whatever system they can rig up. This seems to hold a bit true based on the video methods of measure, where we have seen some pretty good speeds calculated. I guess the video methods have a bias to figure what the initial speed was, because an avg speed traveled from serve to receiver would be roughly a fourth off, right?

Most people on this site who have posted speed videos use the SpeedTrac X, which doesn't have a good reputation for accuracy or range. The big advantage is that you can put it on the ground in front of you and see the speed on the huge display. With the gun-type radars you need either another person to measure or you need a tripod mount.

I have a Sports Radar brand gun that I believe is fairly accurate if someone stands behind the server. The occasional glitch is that it locks in on the ball toss before the hit.

But, yeah, I agree with your general point that most guys with consumer radar, especially the SpeedTrac X, have measurements that are usually low compared to a professional setup.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I thought serve speed is measured as the ball goes over the net not right off the racquet strings?

Speed is measured off the racket to give everyone "Wow" numbers. A 120 mph serve slows considerably as it travels reaching the opponents racket at about 55 mph. Still too damn fast for me. It's about 90 mph over the net
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
This gives an off angle speed that is nearer to net and seems way low compared to pros. Not that everyone can serve 130, but in reality, players do much better than many think, if they could get a speed measurement that is apples to apples with what the pro's system provides.

Interesting and makes a lot of sense. I see serves in WTA matches that look quite weak yet are displayed at 95-100 MPH. My friend is a 5.5 with an almost unreturnable delivery, for me at least and some top juniors he trains, and he could barely get over 100 MPH on his radar. Unfortunately I don't know which radar he has.
 

BA10S

Rookie
Thank you very much for all of your replies. I just wanted to say that I’m still planning to share a new video of my serve which should give a much better idea of what I need to improve. Sometime this week for sure.
 

wings56

Hall of Fame
Serve speed calibration -

1) To check that the scale is not changing between the frames on my computer screen of the frames to be used, I measured the distance between the two fence posts at the top of the white fence. I was getting two frames at 79 mm and one at 81 mm (OP arm in way) as displayed on my screen. The magnification does not appear to have changed between the frames.

2) The video shows that the camera was hand held and the camera pans to the right.

3) Because the camera pans we will measure from background objects, the downspout is good.

4) Motion blur smears the object edges in the direction of motion but not in the direction perpendicular to the motion.

5) The average tennis ball diameter is known, 2.57-2.70 inches or 6.54-6.86 cm and we can use it as a reference for length. Take average ball to be 2.63". In the frame before the ball is hit it measures 3.8 mm +/- 0.3 mm perpendicular to travel direction and more like 5 mm in the direction of travel with the motion blur added.

A mm scale is convenient for screen measurements.

Using the ball diameter to calibrate length on the screen at the location of the ball

2.63" / 3.8 mm = 0.69 "/ mm. (" abbreviation for inches)

In other words, 1 mm on my screen equals 0.69" in real space as recorded. Wide angle lens may vary magnification across the image, calibrate near the measurement. (The ball's image may be used if it is clear and has distinct edges, even a motion blurred image......)

6) Now we want to measure the distance between two frames.
Using your pictures #2 & #3 and using the down spout for "0" mm

Frame #2
The front blur is about 4 mm +/- 1 mm from the downspout (scale aligned with the ball's trajectory, slightly down).

Frame #3
The front blur is about 15 mm +/- 1 mm from the downspout (scale aligned with the ball's trajectory).

There is a problem in that when I look at the grey blur trying to get a measurement my eye play tricks with the grey level and they move. I estimated that uncertainty at +/- 1 mm. That estimate of the front edge could be much improved with better lighting.

The ball moved

15-4 mm = 11 mm between frame #2 and #3.

Using the screen calibration to get real space travel distance in inches
11mm X 0.69" / mm = 7.59" between frames #2 and #3.

7) The time between frame at 240 fps is

1sec / 240 f/ses = 0.0042 sec or 4.2 milliseconds

8) Velocity

7.59" / 0.0042 sec = 1810 " / second

One hundred miles per hour is 1760 " / second - a good conversion factor to remember for MPH.

1810"/sec / 1760"/sec X 100 MPH = 103 MPH

In this set up, since the ball goes away from the camera at a small angle the real distance traveled would always be greater than measured in 6) and the speed would always be higher from this correction. It is easier than correcting to move the camera to view more perpendicular to the ball's trajectory where you want to measure. First estimate is that if the trajectory goes away from the camera at 10 degrees the correction is to add cos 10 d to the measured length, or +2%. That would make the final measurement in this case, 105 MPH.

The edges of motion blur become smaller as the shutter speed becomes shorter in higher light levels. Better videos would increase accuracy.

The ball is a convenient length calibration but it has to be large enough and in good focus for accuracy.

[Conversions - if you type "X inches per second convert to MPH" or similar in the Google search box, Google performs and displays the conversion.]

maths
 

NuBas

Legend
Haven't been reading thread but on your serve, it may be that you are trying to snap at last second too much.
Why don't you just try to aim your serve where you want it to go and completely forget about how fast, it must be consistent first.

Forehand, please do not try to emulate Kyrgios, his technique won't work for many and should not be emulated. Better to emulate forehands like Federer, Verdasco, etc.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Haven't been reading thread but on your serve, it may be that you are trying to snap at last second too much.
Why don't you just try to aim your serve where you want it to go and completely forget about how fast, it must be consistent first.

Forehand, please do not try to emulate Kyrgios, his technique won't work for many and should not be emulated. Better to emulate forehands like Federer, Verdasco, etc.
Actually I would not suggest someone emulate the Federer or Verdasco forehand. Interesting you chose not to mention Rafa's WW forehand--it's the same as Fed and Verdasco's forehands where it matters.

Most people's footwork and wrist control (ie keeping the wrist LOOSE, not snapping the wrist) are not good enough to use a straight arm forehand. If a straight arm is what is natural that's fine, but chances are that they are better served looking at someone like Tsonga, Berdych, Simon, Monfils than those two.

Kyrgios, Shapovalov, Kokkinakis, Khachanov, Tiafoe, Roddick, Djokovic, Thiem are all good examples to look at if the person is already using an extreme semiwestern or more extreme grip with a double bend, because the classic takeback often does not provide enough enough RHA to drive through the ball the more extreme the forehand grip is.
 

NuBas

Legend
I personally like Dimitrov, Federer, Verdasco and the likes forehands, it can be done depending on the person but the individual should know best. I think the OP is fully capable judging by his physique and youth, its definitely possible and Federer is known for being injury free and having such a long career so why not emulate him, its not impossible you just won't look as good.
 
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