Razer
Legend
except the 2017ao when has federer shown clutch against an atg opponent ? the man has lost 24 matches frfom MPs, no coincidence.
Since Djokovic first cracked the top 10 in March 2007, him and Federer played 17 deciding sets in matches...
- Thread starter PerilousPear
- Start date
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Wimbledon 2007 comes to mind.
AO13
Hall of Fame
Yeah, that's one perspective of the story.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He was 6 years younger than Fed so he was closer to his best. Fed in 2014 when he was a year older pushed prime Djokovic to 5.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Against whom has Djokovic needed to be mentally strong since he's won 15 slams after turning 28?
Federev
Legend
Perhaps a good question is - would the match really go the distance if Federer was at his peak?
The OP is a not so subtle form of cherry-picking and ignoring the six years age gap.
There are other important questions in this never ending “debate”.
How many 5 set matches did Federer lose to Novak during Feds peak years? How often did Novak even make it to meet Federer in finals in Federer’s prime years?
Unlike Rafa - his peer- Novak was rarely there. And when he was he was usually dispatched by Fed unceremoniously.
Why has Novak won the majority of his slams after he turned 28 when Federer was past his prime and would always be at an age disadvantage?
Even when Fed was past his prime and Novak was in his…
Why did it take until 2014 for Novak to beat Federer at Wimbledon? He lost in 4 in 2012.
Why did it take until 2012 for Novak to beat Federer at RG? He lost in 4 in 2011.
Even Novak’s peak year win at USO in 2011 he was down MPs?
Winning the majority of your slams after 28 - with zero ATGs behind you, and your closest ATG competitors in decline - is not a great advertisement for unqualified GOAT.
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Holmes
Hall of Fame
Perhaps in all of these cases the younger player was simply the better player, hence dethroning the older player?
Holmes
Hall of Fame
More excuses. We have more than enough data to determine who the better player is. Unlike the sample size of "1" match between a 10 year apart Federer and Sampras that you enjoy using to decisively settle the grass GOAT debate, we have 50 matches between Federer and Djokovic to give us some guidance in this era.
Federev
Legend
The one who cramped up in fear at a set a piece?
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
If Haas, Safin and 34 year old Agassi can push him to 5 sets in 2004-2006 then yes someone as great as Djokovic obviously can. Federer's peak years were 2004-2007 when Djokovic was 16-20 years old and he did start meeting Federer in Slams when he was 19 so you're being quite disingenuous there in asking why he wasn't meeting peak Federer. Djokovic didn't play his 1st Slam until 2005 AO.
A lot of what you're saying it totally circumstantial, like why they didn't meet at RG until 2011 when you know it's because Djokovic was on Nadal's part of the draw in 2006, 2007 and 2008 or why they didn't meet at Wimbledon when again Djokovic was on Nadal's part of the draw in 2007. Then in 2009 Djokovic lost to Haas and in 2010, Federer lost to Berdych which is why they didn't meet until 2012. So it's hard to beat someone at a tournament if you aren't playing any matches because of the draw.
So Djokovic should have just stopped winning once he turned 28 like Federer? So he should be penalized for being good enough to dominate his generation and the next at 28 and 29, and then into his 30s?
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Djokovic being better than Federer once the matches are close. In 2006-2009 when they played 3 set matches in a BO3, Djokovic came out ahead 4-2. This was in Federer's prime and well before Djokovic reached his best.
Federer has played Djokovic in 4 five set matches and in 3 of them he had match point but lost them all. This shows he's weaker mentally than Djokovic and if that doesn't show you he's weaker mentally, then look at his overall 5 set record compared to Djokovic's and then look at how many matches Federer lost from match point up compared to Djokovic. So yes, the closer the match is the better it is for Djokovic and that has nothing to do with age.
Holmes
Hall of Fame
I truly admire your patience and stamina. Nole-worthy.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Thank you. There was so much wrong here that I couldn't let this one pass. Lol.
Federev
Legend
I’ll just leave this here.
Your presumption - from your earlier post - is that because post peak Federer lost tight Bo5 matches against Novak, then all this talk of “what if” hypothetical re age gap is none sense.
So…Look at Novak’s results against Federer in Federer’s peak bud. Is that age?
Additionally, We might as well ask - why did Novak have so much trouble with post prime Federer? Why did he need 5 sets so often?
Circumstances - You cite Rafa being in Novak’s draw at Wimbledon in 2007 - why did Novak not beat his peer Rafa? Fed did.
And what about the other years?
Haas? Another of Fed’s weak era pigeons? The ATG Berdych? Why did Berdych stop a guy who’s so much clearly mentally together than Fed?
Roland Garros - so What about the FO in 2009 and 2010 and 2011? Did Rafa stop Novak there?
Fact is - Novak never dominated Federer in Fed’s peak and it was well after Fed’s best years before he was able to dominate Federer.
Why is that?
If it’s not age, then what is it?
If it is age, then why does Federer get labeled weak mentally for not only beating everyone around him later in his career except two ATGs 5-6 years his junior, but being able to push them to 5 - and even take them out on occasion?
Some how Novak is a hero for needing 5 sets against a guy 6 years older who is a mental midget. And Fed is a loser for pushing him hard instead of losing in 3.
It’s like the Peter fans who laud his 7-0 record in finals over Fed’s 8-4 record in finals. As if losing in the 2nd and 4th round is somehow greater than fighting to the very finish.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
And I'll leave this right here.
BO3 deciding set win percentage in the Open era
#2 Djokovic - 168-68 - 71.2%
#24 Federer - 201-105 - 65.7%
5th set win percentage in the Open Era
#4 Djokovic - 36-10 - 78.3%
#76 Federer - 31-23 - 57.4%
Match points saved and squandered by the Big Four
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ***FEDERER*** MP WASTED (24) 2021 Doha QF Basilashvili 6–3, 1–6, 5–7 (1) 2019 Wimbledon F Djokovic 6–7(5), 6–1, 6–7(4), 6–4...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
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Federev
Legend
Look everyone!
Novak needed 5 sets to take out a player past his prime and 6 years older than him! The same player who never needed 5 sets against Novak when he was in his prime!
So how much better Novak is?
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Federev
Legend
And I'll leave this right here.
BO3 deciding set win percentage in the Open era
#2 Djokovic - 168-68 - 71.2%
#24 Federer - 201-105 - 65.7%
5th set win percentage in the Open Era
#4 Djokovic - 36-10 - 78.3%
#76 Federer - 31-23 - 57.4%
Match points saved and squandered by the Big Four
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– ***FEDERER*** MP WASTED (24) 2021 Doha QF Basilashvili 6–3, 1–6, 5–7 (1) 2019 Wimbledon F Djokovic 6–7(5), 6–1, 6–7(4), 6–4...
Has nothing to do with past-prime Federer pushing ATGs younger than him who should have finished him off earlier.
Has nothing to do with 5-6 years older Fed having to battle Djokdal from an age disadvantage for the vast majority of his career and them having to battle no ATGs below them. Even to this day.
Past prime Fed in his 30s pushes 6 years younger Novak to 5 instead of losing in straights = Novak is certainly a better player and Fed has no guts.
Thanks TTW!
The Fedfather
Legend
It's not talked about enough how the glee over the 40-15 misfortune led to an insane propping up of this match by some Djokovic fans, numerical facts facts which everyone LOVES - point to it being one of his worst Slam wins. Imagine continuously parading a Slam win where Federer played second fiddle for most of the match, did worse literally in every performance category but one, and just clutched the match out in TBs? Right, we can't relate.
I am so ready now whenever it's brought up to redirect the 40-15 slander in the direction it always should've been flowing. Oh, it's funny to you that Federer at 37 put on a considerably better athletic performance than the 6-years-younger Djokovic and only lost because he got tight mentally? Yeah, let's laugh together.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federev
Legend
The irony of dismissing Federer as a mental chump in order to exalt the majesty of the win.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I'm so tired of hearing about this age nonsense. Lol. If someone wants to talk about age then look at Djokovic battling guys 15 and 16 years younger than him. That's what an age disadvantage really looks like. None of this is the point anyway.
The point is, Federer is not great at handling matches when they are close and especially in 5 sets, and definitely not as great at it as Djokovic; he lost a ton of matches while having match points so this time travel is mostly nonsense, because it omits that factor in how the matches would play out. So, he is not as mentally strong as Djokovic. So either you want to accept or deny that, but most of everything else you are talking about has nothing to do with the topic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fred himself showed mental toughness against older players, so it's not something specific only to Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Marvelous win by Djokovic.
Meanwhile, a 33 year old Fed loses in 5 to prime Djokovic -> Fred is a mental weakling.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
A 38 year old getting tight in his last ever slam final? Surely, that's impossible. I thought people get mentally tougher as they get older. At least that's what Djokovic fans have told me.
Federev
Legend
Your post that i replied to initially - in which you deduced this - from Fed’s tight loses to Novak:
“which means all these time travel discussions are mostly pointless.”
By “time travel” you pejoratively mean peak v peak relative player quality questions.
Everything I wrote is relevant to that point - which you brought up.
You can ignore Novak’s record in slams against Fed and against the field during Fed’s peak years or not. You can dismiss his crucial loses in four sets in his own peak years against post prime Federer in 2011 at RG and WB 2012 at WV, and being down match points at the USO to boot in ‘11. You can dismiss the fact that he had ONE slam going into 2011 when Federer had 16.
But then to assert implicitly that age (time travel?) is not a factor in their relative quality or accomplishments is - to me - a selective double standard.
And by the way - I like you as a poster, but I didn’t start this thread or make the assertions of Fed’s mental midgetry and what it tells us about their absolute qualities as players.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
You're going around in circles as I've already refuted the same things you keep repeating, and this is going nowhere as you clearly don't want to actually talk about the elephant in the room: Federer's 5 set record. It's the worst of any ATG but instead let's talk about age over and over, and things that don't have to do with why making a time travel peak to peak is pointless if the matches are actually close because at the end of the day, tennis isn't just about how good you can hit a shot. It has a lot do with how you handle pressure situations mentally. So this is my last reply to you on this.
Federev
Legend
You brought in peak v peak. Not me.
TheNachoMan
Legend
Cook em.
Federev
Legend
He didn’t tho.Cook em.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Cook em.
Federev
Legend
I think it’s more like you tried to start a fire in the kitchen and then walked out when the sprinkler system went on.
Born_to_slice
Legend
When pigs fly. Federer was a mental rock. The fact that there was someone even stronger than him don't make Fed weak.
If that helps you sleep.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Federer’s generosity is the only reason Novak has won what he’s won.
Federev
Legend
It doesn’t help me sleep.
It makes me weep.
For tennis.
For Fed’s Wimby records going down in flames ….
…to cramps.
His records are going down because another guy beat him. Several times.
Federev
Legend
Nope.
His records still stood through all that.
Novak has no one to contend with and hasn’t since Fed left.
The last slam he won, the expected next big thing literally freaked out in fear and his body collapsed after 2 sets.
The next guy was his usual pushover just as he was for Rafa.
Incredible scenes.
lol. Your back is as flexible as Nadia Comaneci.
Federev
Legend
Whatever that means, what I wrote is also true.
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I know. I've seen a lot of Fed fans bend over backwards to make up the rules.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
Nolefams enjoy the moment. The fedal fanboys can't take it away.
LaVie en Rose
Hall of Fame
Everyone is tired of their excuses
Nice elegy , seriously .
Vivid imagination
Legacy not going up to boney bits in elbow?
Federev
Legend
Fed fans didn’t post this thread.
Federev
Legend
I didn’t make up anything in what I wrote though. It’s all true.
Federev
Legend
Thanks. And yeah - No boney bits.
LaVie en Rose
Hall of Fame
The whole board is where they are coming to sulk
LaVie en Rose
Hall of Fame
TheNachoMan
Legend
If Nadal fought back from those MPs down it would be “epic”
beltsman
G.O.A.T.
What it tells us? That Fed, when playing well, beats Djokovic pretty easily. When Fed is not playing well he still manages to keep it close and push it to a deciding set. Fed is a better fighter than Djokovic. Djokovic packs it in when he's getting beat. That's what it tells us.
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