Since Djokovic first cracked the top 10 in March 2007, him and Federer played 17 deciding sets in matches...

[PerilousPear]

4 matches include the 5th set in slams, and 13 include the 3rd set in ATP Finals/M1000s.

Fed managed to win 3 of them, while Djokovic won 14 (including all 4 at slams).

I didn't expect Fed's mental roadblock to be this big tbh.

For reference, Fed played 12 deciding set matches against Rafa since Nadal reached the top 10 in April 2005, and he trails 5-7

2-2 at slams
5-3 at ATP Finals/M1000 for Nadal

What it tells us?

 

[Djokodalerer31]

4 matches include the 5th set in slams, and 13 include the 3rd set in ATP Finals/M1000s.

Fed managed to win 3 of them, while Djokovic won 14 (including all 4 at slams).

I didn't expect Fed's mental roadblock to be this big tbh.

For reference, Fed played 12 deciding set matches against Rafa since Nadal reached the top 10 in April 2005, and he trails 5-7

2-2 at slams
5-3 at ATP Finals/M1000 for Nadal

What it tells us?

That Federer is the real third wheel of the trivalry and not the real GOAT his fans proclaim him to be?...

 

[ND-13]

How many of these matches occurred from 2013 ??

 

[Djokodalerer31]

How many of these matches occurred from 2013 ??

What did happen in 2013 all of a sudden? Did Federer suddenly turned 40 overnight?...

 

[ND-13]

What did happen in 2013 all of a sudden? Did Federer suddenly turned 40 overnight?...

2013 Fed injured
2014 when movement visibly declined

 

[Hitman]

4 matches include the 5th set in slams, and 13 include the 3rd set in ATP Finals/M1000s.

Fed managed to win 3 of them, while Djokovic won 14 (including all 4 at slams).

I didn't expect Fed's mental roadblock to be this big tbh.

For reference, Fed played 12 deciding set matches against Rafa since Nadal reached the top 10 in April 2005, and he trails 5-7

2-2 at slams
5-3 at ATP Finals/M1000 for Nadal

What it tells us?

Federer won a lot matches where he was clear cut the better player, but when things got close between them, Federer also blinked first more often.

 

[Djokodalerer31]

2013 Fed injured
2014 when movement visibly declined

kay...whatever helps you sleep at night...

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Already included in the commonly parroted stats regarding slam MPs and deciding tiebreaks. Their BO3 deciders usually weren't close, besides three TBs (won by Djokovic) there's only one 7-5 (won by Federer) and a bunch of 6-3/6-2s (mostly won by Djokovic) with one 6-1 (won by Federer).

 

[PerilousPear]

How many of these matches occurred from 2013 ??

8 of them, with Fed winning 1 (Dubai 2014).

But that doesn't really mean anything though. In '09 and '10, when Fed was in form, and Djok wasn't, It's 4-2 for Djokovic.

 

[metsman]

8 of them, with Fed winning 1 (Dubai 2014).

But that doesn't really mean anything though. In '09 and '10, when Fed was in form, and Djok wasn't, It's 4-2 for Djokovic.

when Fed was in form in 09/10 he usually straight setted Djokovic.

 

[ghostofMecir]

What did happen in 2013 all of a sudden? Did Federer suddenly turned 40 overnight?...

How do players usually do in deciding sets vs. other ATGs (let alone someone like Djoko) when that ATG is 6 years younger and you yourself are 30 years old 32 in this specific context).

 

[NoleFam]

It tells us that if the match goes the distance, Federer only has a 17.7% chance of winning which means all these time travel discussions are mostly pointless.

 

[mike danny]

That Federer is the real third wheel of the trivalry and not the real GOAT his fans proclaim him to be?...

And that he's the oldest of the 3

 

[mike danny]

8 of them, with Fed winning 1 (Dubai 2014).

But that doesn't really mean anything though. In '09 and '10, when Fed was in form, and Djok wasn't, It's 4-2 for Djokovic.

Well, plennty of guys were beating Fed in deciding sets in 2008-2010, not just Djokovic.

 

[mike danny]

It tells us that if the match goes the distance, Federer only has a 17.7% chance of winning which means all these time travel discussions are mostly pointless.

In 3 of them he had MPs, which is an important detail.

 

[NoleFam]

In 3 of them he had MPs, which is an important detail.

Then that's even worse.

 

[mike danny]

Then that's even worse.

Point is let's not pretend like Djokovic didn't have to pull off some impossible escapes despite being closer to his best than Federer those times.

 

[mike danny]

It tells us that Fed faced the best of Djokovic more often than the other way around and Djokovic still had to work his ass off to triumph.

 

[mike danny]

What did happen in 2013 all of a sudden? Did Federer suddenly turned 40 overnight?...

It's called getting older and not facing Trash Gen

 

[JasonZ]

i always wondered how prime federer was such an outstanding tiebreak player, when he never really was mentally strong in any other department.

 

[The Fedfather]

Not every deciding set loss is a result of a player struggling mentally. The big number of tight matches Roger lost/Djokovic won doesn't really mean it was a result of a giant mental block for Federer against Djokovic. Definitely not in the proximity of the one he had against Rafa for most of his prime.

With Djokovic, especially in GSs, it so happened that Federer played quite a few matches when he was past his best, nearing the years of typical retirement, and feeling extra urgency and pressure of getting the title. I think Federer's real mental block against Djokovic only was truly formed during 2015, which allowed for one most unfortunate loss later on. So yeah, Novak became a significant mental roadblock, but it was not as big as some might infer from the OP stat.

I said it before and I think there's plenty of evidence (both numerical and contextual) to support it believe it to be true, Federer was nerfed with his tendency (relative to other ATGs) to struggle with self-doubt and not trusting himself to play at the level he was clearly able to play. It both applied to pressure moments in matches, and to rivalries in general. Cost him in the numbers race beyond what can be seen on the surface.

 

[NoleFam]

Point is let's not pretend like Djokovic didn't have to pull off some impossible escapes despite being closer to his best than Federer those times.

Yea Djokovic was definitely close to his best in 2019....how many of those did Djokovic lose to Federer after having match point?

 

[Bambooman]

How do players usually do in deciding sets vs. other ATGs (let alone someone like Djoko) when that ATG is 6 years younger and you yourself are 30 years old 32 in this specific context).

Can you guys let go the old man 30-32 year old spiel after Djokovic at 36 thumped a 20 yo? Thank You.

 

[N01E]

8 of them, with Fed winning 1 (Dubai 2014).

But that doesn't really mean anything though. In '09 and '10, when Fed was in form, and Djok wasn't, It's 4-2 for Djokovic.

Dubai 2014 was also the only match Federer won after losing the first set against Djokovic.

 

[ND-13]

Fed keeping the overall h2h 23-27 and in fact leading the h2h until age 34 - how did that happen then ???

He must have won everything in straights ???

 

[crimson87]

It tells us that Fed faced the best of Djokovic more often than the other way around and Djokovic still had to work his ass off to triumph.

And this is why I don't understand djoko ****s logic. They want to sell WB19 as this significant feat from a mental giant when it actually took 5 to 6 hours to beat a 38 year old that couldn't move 3 steps to the sides and come back to defend.

Djokovic should have straight settled and bageled him to prove RF was done. He was effectively 6 months away from his real retirement. And still managed to beat Djokovic at 38 in December 2019. Only injuries and the pandemic stopped RF from being a top ten at 40YO.

 

[ghostofMecir]

Can you guys let go the old man 30-32 year old spiel after Djokovic at 36 thumped a 20 yo? Thank You.

You didn’t answer the question. Older players playing against 5-6 years younger ATGs rarely win, let alone against players like Djoko and Rafa.

 

[Bambooman]

You didn’t answer the question. Older players playing against 5-6 years younger ATGs rarely win, let alone against players like Djoko and Rafa.

But you forgot that the older player is also an ATG. Apples to Apples.

 

[Sudacafan]

4 matches include the 5th set in slams, and 13 include the 3rd set in ATP Finals/M1000s.

Fed managed to win 3 of them, while Djokovic won 14 (including all 4 at slams).

I didn't expect Fed's mental roadblock to be this big tbh.

For reference, Fed played 12 deciding set matches against Rafa since Nadal reached the top 10 in April 2005, and he trails 5-7

2-2 at slams
5-3 at ATP Finals/M1000 for Nadal

What it tells us?

We already know Fed was a mug. Nothing new.

 

[StrongRule]

8 of them, with Fed winning 1 (Dubai 2014).

But that doesn't really mean anything though. In '09 and '10, when Fed was in form, and Djok wasn't, It's 4-2 for Djokovic.

Djokovic was very much in form in BO3 in 2009.

 

[Razer]

What it tells us?

Tells us that peak for peak on surfaces where Roger vs Novak matches go 5 sets, always Novak will win over Roger.

On days when Roger can overpower Novak, he will win, otherwise not.

We've known this all along, Roger won 20 slams because he was most talented tennis player of his era, not because of any clutch or digging deep against equal level opposition. He wins by overpowering people, not by digging really deep, on few occasions has he done that really.

 

[TheAssassin]

It tells us that Fed, when not old, and in good form, and in good health, and on a proper surface rewarding morally superior tennis, is hypothetically unbeatable.

 

[Holmes]

Credit to Federer for getting those three deciders, and interestingly the number of such sets he's won mirrors his place in his era.

 

[Holmes]

And that he's the oldest of the 3

5 years older, a regular age gap between ATGs/great players that go up against each other in the same era. The impact of the age difference shrinks even further when modern recovery and fitness methods that are allowing top players to play great well into their mid 30s are taken into account

 

[Holmes]

i always wondered how prime federer was such an outstanding tiebreak player, when he never really was mentally strong in any other department.

Going against players even mentally weaker than himself may have had something to do with it. Roddick and Safin weren't exactly the Alis of tennis.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Federer is mentally weak player. If not, then he would have slam record set to 25 or 30.

 

[TheNachoMan]

Not every deciding set loss is a result of a player struggling mentally. The big number of tight matches Roger lost/Djokovic won doesn't really mean it was a result of a giant mental block for Federer against Djokovic. Definitely not in the proximity of the one he had against Rafa for most of his prime.

With Djokovic, especially in GSs, it so happened that Federer played quite a few matches when he was past his best, nearing the years of typical retirement, and feeling extra urgency and pressure of getting the title. I think Federer's real mental block against Djokovic only was truly formed during 2015, which allowed for one most unfortunate loss later on. So yeah, Novak became a significant mental roadblock, but it was not as big as some might infer from the OP stat.

I said it before and I think there's plenty of evidence (both numerical and contextual) to support it believe it to be true, Federer was nerfed with his tendency (relative to other ATGs) to struggle with self-doubt and not trusting himself to play at the level he was clearly able to play. It both applied to pressure moments in matches, and to rivalries in general. Cost him in the numbers race beyond what can be seen on the surface.

Your posts are way too high effort for GPPD. Not getting enough troll/bait vibes. 0/10.

 

[The Fedfather]

Your posts are way too high effort for GPPD. Not getting enough troll/bait vibes. 0/10.

And it's not even 3 am, when I'm at my high-effort peak

 

[T007]

That Federer is the real third wheel of the trivalry and not the real GOAT his fans proclaim him to be?...

Third wheel whipped ass of MTO phony in 2011 FO a.k.a peak djoker.

A 38 year old Fed Made him run for 5 hours. What a same

 

[T007]

Federer is mentally weak player. If not, then he would have slam record set to 25 or 30.

He has to face two young ATGs in his prime and Also his 30s. Djoker and Nadal has none. Nadal would have more or less same success. But with a Goating thiem and Murray would have denied djoker 7-8 slams.

Djoker is GLOAT.

 

[T007]

Credit to Federer for getting those three deciders, and interestingly the number of such sets he's won mirrors his place in his era.

It tells how dominating is djoker as he straight setted djoker and Nadal while winning most of the times.

 

[JasonZ]

Going against players even mentally weaker than himself may have had something to do with it. Roddick and Safin weren't exactly the Alis of tennis.

look at prime federers tiebreak record at slams against nadal and especially djokovic. your statement is wrong.

 

[Holmes]

look at prime federers tiebreak record at slams against nadal and especially djokovic. your statement is wrong.

Of course, "prime Federer", that elusive and most wondrous of Unicorns that stalks the boundaries of the forum.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Yea Djokovic was definitely close to his best in 2019....how many of those did Djokovic lose to Federer after having match point?

Whoa you're right he should be so proud of a practically 40 yr old having the match on his racquet against him and outplayed statistically

 

[FeroBango]

5 years older

3 years and 10 months actually.

 

[NoleFam]

Whoa you're right he should be so proud of a practically 40 yr old having the match on his racquet against him and outplayed statistically

Well yea he should be proud. He didn't play anywhere near his best and still won it.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

5 years older, a regular age gap between ATGs/great players that go up against each other in the same era. The impact of the age difference shrinks even further when modern recovery and fitness methods that are allowing top players to play great well into their mid 30s are taken into account

The age gap is much closer to 6 than 5. Name me one ATG rivalry between players of similar ability with a minimum 10 matches where the older player had the winning record over the younger player, and then maybe you have a point. Djokovic is clearly the greatest player, but Federer having a losing record is expected. All you have to do is look at the top 10 rivalries in tennis and see that there are 0 instances when the older player leads, even when the difference is only a couple of years.

 

[T007]

The age gap is much closer to 6 than 5. Name me one ATG rivalry between players of similar ability with a minimum 10 matches where the older player had the winning record over the younger player, and then maybe you have a point. Djokovic is clearly the greatest player, but Federer having a losing record is expected. All you have to do is look at the top 10 rivalries in tennis and see that there are 0 instances when the older player leads, even when the difference is only a couple of years.

Federer led h2h 13-6 in including 4-1 in slams till 2010. The official end of his near peak/prime version. Federer continued to lead till 2015 WTF. When Fed was close to 35 a 29 year old prime djokovic over took him in h2h.

 

[LaVie en Rose]

4 matches include the 5th set in slams, and 13 include the 3rd set in ATP Finals/M1000s.

Fed managed to win 3 of them, while Djokovic won 14 (including all 4 at slams).

I didn't expect Fed's mental roadblock to be this big tbh.

For reference, Fed played 12 deciding set matches against Rafa since Nadal reached the top 10 in April 2005, and he trails 5-7

2-2 at slams
5-3 at ATP Finals/M1000 for Nadal

What it tells us?

It tells us that Fed, when not old, and in good form, and in good health, and on a proper surface rewarding morally superior tennis, is hypothetically unbeatable.

This!


Maybe Fed saw what is coming for him so he started bad mouthing Djokovic from the beginnining

 

[Djokovic2011]

Tells us that peak for peak on surfaces where Roger vs Novak matches go 5 sets, always Novak will win over Roger.

On days when Roger can overpower Novak, he will win, otherwise not.

We've known this all along, Roger won 20 slams because he was most talented tennis player of his era, not because of any clutch or digging deep against equal level opposition. He wins by overpowering people, not by digging really deep, on few occasions has he done that really.

I disagree with the final part as Federer showed several times that he could dig deep to win a big match, the 2017 AO final being a prime example. His fighting qualities were always very underrated IMO.