Starting the serve with bent knees, in order to hit up more

[Fintft]

(Doing this again)
Also the toss seems to be more consistent/vertical.

Apparently Rafa starts with bent knees and stays like that the whole serve, until he hits the serve.

Tomas here says so and also to avoid a double knee bent:

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What do you mean by "to avoid a double knee bent (bend)"? Both knees should be bent during the trophy phase. But not bent in opposite directions.

Rafa has changed his serve motion somewhat over the years. In some of the videos I've viewed, Rafa has a bit of knee bend at the start of his motion. But his primary knee bend (max flexion) does not happen until after the release of the ball on his toss. He achieves his max knee bend as he approaches his trophy phase.

But he does NOT stay this way until he delivers the serve. As with other elite servers, his legs start to extend (straighten) as he starts his racket drop. His legs are fully extended (and he has left the ground) at the bottom of his racket drop behind his back

So his knees are no longer bent at the start of his upward swing

 

[Dragy]

Tomas here says so and also to avoid a double knee bent:

He's Nick

 

[TennisDawg]

Nick is one of the better YouTube instructors. I’m a little surprised he didn’t emphasize raising your heels and allowing your feet to naturally bend your knees. All the great servers do that. Always avoid flat footed serving.

 

[Mark-Touch]

I think service knee bends are way over-rated.
Especially for people like me who have sustained severe left ankle injuries and are RH servers.
I have learned that jumping up and landing with all your body weight on the left ankle just ain't for me.

 

[Rosstour]

This is neat and I'm gonna mess around with it.

 

[socallefty]

I think service knee bends are way over-rated.
Especially for people like me who have sustained severe left ankle injuries and are RH servers.
I have learned that jumping up and landing with all your body weight on the left ankle just ain't for me.

A lot of good rec players who are older bend their knees, but don’t necessarily jump and get off the ground - they just uncoil the knees when they rise up to contact the ball and get enough kinetic chain energy to serve well.

 

[Fintft]

What do you mean by "to avoid a double knee bent (bend)"? Both knees should be bent during the trophy phase. But not bent in opposite directions.

Rafa has changed his serve motion somewhat over the years. In some of the videos I've viewed, Rafa has a bit of knee bend at the start of his motion. But his primary knee bend (max flexion) does not happen until after the release of the ball on his toss. He achieves his max knee bend as he approaches his trophy phase.

But he does NOT stay this way until he delivers the serve. As with other elite servers, his legs start to extend (straighten) as he starts his racket drop. His legs are fully extended (and he has left the ground) at the bottom of his racket drop behind his back

So his knees are not longer bent at the start of his upward swing

Nicks shows it in the video, have you watched it?
By double knee bent he means that you start the rocking/tossing motion with your knees bent, then you extent, after which some people bent knees again after the toss - he says it's a no no.
I am trying to start the rocking motion with the knees bent (only one bent), then I go up to the ball, after the toss.
About Rafa, Nick meant that he doesn't do a double knee bent and neither do I.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Nicks shows it in the video, have you watched it?
By double knee bent he means that you start the rocking/tossing motion with your knees bent, then you extent, after which some people bent knees again after the toss - he says it's a no no.
I am trying to start the rocking motion with the knees bent (only one bent), then I go up to the ball, after the toss.
About Rafa, Nick meant that he doesn't do a double knee bent and neither do I.

I watched about half the video. The video was too long for me. My old eyes fatigue very easily so I jumped around & just watched several sections of it

Are you referring to "double dipping"? You see this with many rec players but rarely see it with any elite servers. Many rec will bend and then extend their knees to assist in tossing the ball. (This is completely unnecessary). They then bend their knees again for their trophy phase. Double dipping.

Some novice servers will even bend & extend their knees at the very begining -- even before they toss the ball. It's a superfluous knee bend that has very little value, if any. These novice players see elite servers employing a knee bend so they try to incorporate it themselves. They don't know how to time the bend & extend so they just put it at the very begining (whee it's not really very useful).

 

[ChaelAZ]

This is oddly put together and to me it seems he mixed knee bend timing with using a double knee bend, which, like, every pro and many advanced rec players do. I dunno why he jumbled it together at the beginning, and I lost interest there so maybe he explained.

But yeah, I've always seen the sequencing or timing of the bend as being toss, bend to load (yes, both knees, though you load forward more), and hit. I've posted Stan many times as I think he is a good template for rec because his sequencing/timing is right, he doesn't use an exaggerated knee bend, and is (mostly) upright. So less stress on out of shape rec players knees and lower back. And then he loads and opens up nicely to the ball.

 

[Fintft]

Are you referring to "double dipping"? You see this with many rec players but rarely see it with any elite servers. Many rec will bend and then extend their knees to assist in tossing the ball. (This is completely unnecessary). They then bend their knees again for their trophy phase. Double dipping.

Some novice servers will even bend & extend their knees at the very begining -- even before they toss the ball. It's a superfluous knee bend that has very little value, if any. These novice players see elite servers employing a knee bend so they try to incorporate it themselves. They don't know how to time the bend & extend so they just put it at the very begining (whee it's not really very useful).

Yes to the former, that's what Nick also said it's a no no, b/c one doesn't have time to bent the knees twice.
And also to the second, that's what I've been trying the other day (and in the past), as it seems to help with hitting up. Also the toss seems more consistent and vertical as per my original post.
Nick says that Rafa is doing the same.

 

[eah123]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to start with knees bent because the tendency will be to toss lower and contact lower. In all serves including kick serves, you want to contact the ball as high as possible to give you more margin over the net. That is why John Isner and tall players generally have an advantage on the serve. By starting your serve with knees bent you are effectively making yourself shorter.

The other issue with starting with knees bent is that you miss out on the explosiveness of the stretch-shortening cycle. Try jumping from a knee bent position and compare the height difference vs starting a jump from relaxed but knee straight position where you initiate the jump with a fast knee bend into an upward motion. The stretch of the thigh and calf muscles acts like a spring.

 

[Fintft]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to start with knees bent because the tendency will be to toss lower and contact lower. In all serves including kick serves, you want to contact the ball as high as possible to give you more margin over the net. That is why John Isner and tall players generally have an advantage on the serve. By starting your serve with knees bent you are effectively making yourself shorter.

The other issue with starting with knees bent is that you miss out on the explosiveness of the stretch-shortening cycle. Try jumping from a knee bent position and compare the height difference vs starting a jump from relaxed but knee straight position where you initiate the jump with a fast knee bend into an upward motion. The stretch of the thigh and calf muscles acts like a spring.

I gave up on starting with bent knees (one loses power) and reverted to the classical style: bend the knees after the toss AND make sure I get into trophy position at the lowest point of the knee bend.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Are you referring to "double dipping"?

 

[mental midget]

I think service knee bends are way over-rated.
Especially for people like me who have sustained severe left ankle injuries and are RH servers.
I have learned that jumping up and landing with all your body weight on the left ankle just ain't for me.

a fluid motion, good toss and getting the hip out in front ('archer's bow' as they say) are more important than knee bend imo. yes it helps to spring up and into the ball, not recommending serving with knees locked as that would be weird...however in serve instruction i think people tend to overemphasize this part of the serve, and i see so many players with crazy over-exaggerated bends that throw off their timing and balance big time.

stich had a great motion to learn from...yes he was tall, but unless you're like 5'5 or something it's a very good delivery to get a feel for how flow and overall kinetic chain are more important than a roddick-style deep bend:

almagro is another one...notice the knee bend is more to facilitate that forward movement into the court, than just dropping down then up which you see a lot of folks doing:

 

[TennisDawg]

This is oddly put together and to me it seems he mixed knee bend timing with using a double knee bend, which, like, every pro and many advanced rec players do. I dunno why he jumbled it together at the beginning, and I lost interest there so maybe he explained.

But yeah, I've always seen the sequencing or timing of the bend as being toss, bend to load (yes, both knees, though you load forward more), and hit. I've posted Stan many times as I think he is a good template for rec because his sequencing/timing is right, he doesn't use an exaggerated knee bend, and is (mostly) upright. So less stress on out of shape rec players knees and lower back. And then he loads and opens up nicely to the ball.

It’s very simple. It’s basically raising his heels and the slight knee bend occurs naturally. It’s a passive knee bend.

 

[sureshs]

(Doing this again)
Also the toss seems to be more consistent/vertical.

Apparently Rafa starts with bent knees and stays like that the whole serve, until he hits the serve.

Tomas here says so and also to avoid a double knee bent:

LOL at the left pic

@Azure reminds me of Bharatanatyam

 

[Fintft]

LOL at the left pic

@Azure reminds me of Bharatanatyam

Forget the left pic, that was not the point of the discussion.

 

[ppma]

I will share something.

So I was in this tournament doing horrible tennis, not being in a mood to play and even less to compete. So, I was serving into the net and since I had been being stubborn not to change to continental grip serve technique, I was there with my eastern grip trying to smack the ball from higher up, putting extra stress in my legs to reach 3 or 4 more inches. While so, it was exactly like that: flexed knees, supported on the toes.

In one of those it seems that the effort was too big and I tore my calf (same injury as Dan Evans in Vienna). Apparently, that's a common injury in the serve, as the gastrocnemius reaches a position of high stretch while exerting a lot of power due to the position of the knee (that becomes extended) and ankle (flexed).

So, from my experience comes my advice: do not push too hard to reach higher our you might be >4 months out of the court.
Cheers.