Stats for 1981 RG final (Borg-Lendl)

krosero

Legend
Borg d. Lendl 6-1, 4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-1

The match lasted 3 hours 13 minutes.

Borg was broken 5 times, Lendl 9 times.

Borg had 8 aces and 4 doubles.
Lendl had 3 aces and 4 doubles.

Borg had 28 winners: 6 FH, 10 BH, 3 FHV, 6 BHV, 3 overheads.

Lendl had 36 winners: 23 FH, 8 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 overhead.

Borg’s winners by set: 3, 7, 4, 7, 7.
Lendl’s winners by set: 3, 11, 7, 10, 5.

Lendl got nearly two-thirds of all his winners off his FH.

Borg had a BH lob winner, and 6 other passing shots (4 off the FH).

Lendl had 1 FH lob winner, and 10 other passing shots (7 off the FH).

Neither man had a service return winner.

[Note: all stats in this post have been updated and now reflect the full match; no points are missing]
 
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krosero

Legend
Per the AP, Borg put in 72% of his first serves, Lendl 50%.

The New York Times:

If Lendl’s first serve had been dropping where he aimed it, the result might have been in his favor. As it happened, it was Borg who launched the winners, at least at the outset. Until he ran into trouble in the last game of the second set, Borg had missed on only seven first serves. When the match ended after three hours and 13 minutes, he had delivered eight aces.

Lendl, who has beaten Borg but never on clay, said he would study the video tapes with the hope of transforming the defeat into a learning experience.

“I tried as hard as I could and I’m satisfied with that,” he said. “When you do your best best there is nothing else to do.”

Sports Illustrated:

It's clear from the events in the French Open last week that Bjorn Borg will have to be boiled in oil, hung by the thumbs, pushed out of a speeding Concorde or even made to get his hair cut before anyone will ever again believe reports of his demise. In Paris the discipline, the will, the shotmaking, the impenetrability of the champion were once again on display. On Sunday Borg turned away the fierce challenge of the adventuresome and sometimes brilliant Ivan Lendl, who played him as nobody had in his five previous finals on the bronze clay of Roland Garros Stadium. The scores were 6-1, 4-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-1 as Borg won Open No. 6, his fourth in a row.

Normally the Swede arrives in the City of Light as a conquering hero, but this time he came virtually out of hiding, having suffered a lost springtime. During a six-week stretch in March and April he had been beaten by John McEnroe, by somebody named Rolf Gehring and by Victor Pecci, who disposed of Borg on Bjorn's own home clay in Monte Carlo.

Before the tournament, Borg said he had heard the questions about his health and motivation. He said he resented them. He said, "I am not going down." He said he was ready again to set out on the trail of the Grand Slam. Looking lean and happy and hungry, he took the first leg despite a courageous stand by Lendl, who twice could have folded in the championship round.

The young Czech, by now the world's second-best clay-court player, surrendered five straight games to lose the first set, but then he unloaded his slingshot forehand and squared the match at a set apiece. Borg, serving splendidly (he missed only nine first serves in the first and third sets), again ripped off a five-game series to take the third. And Lendl stormed back. The two had been exchanging blows practically from the boundaries of the nearby Bois de Boulogne for most of a long afternoon, avoiding the neutral territory around the net as if it were the Love Canal. But in the fourth set Borg ventured in behind some shallow forehands. Lendl passed, held for 4-3, broke Borg at 30 with a cross-court drive that found the Swede hesitant at net and closed out the set.

"In the fifth, anyone can win," Borg was to say later, "But I was ready to give everything, to stay out and rally and not take chances."

Sound familiar? Slowing the pace by changing up off the forehand and serve, Borg wore down a tired Lendl with consistency. In one three-game stretch there were five deuce points. Borg won them all. He won the games, too. When he raced from a far corner for a drop volley, which he somehow slid down the line for a winner to reach 4-0, Lendl was finally through and the answers about Borg were fairly obvious.

After his nearly two-month absence from competition, rumor fed upon speculation to create what amounted to a gossip mill on the fragrant, leafy grounds of Roland Garros. Borg had dislocated his shoulder. Borg had become lazy and apathetic. Borg wanted to quit the game and settle down with his wife, Mariana, to start a family. Borg had become senile—growing his fingernails long, baying at the moon and demanding that huge quantities of Baskin Robbins be smuggled onto his private island by Scandinavian frogmen. All the usual stuff.

Having played only three tournaments since January and having failed to advance past the second round in two of those, Borg decided to rest his tender right shoulder. When he arrived in Paris, he was skeptical about his form and acknowledged his lack of serious recent competition. But he had practiced diligently for two weeks, and he pronounced himself fit. "I feel strong. I can be out on the court for a long time if I have to," he said.

He didn't have to. Among the elements sparing the champion extended court time were the rain and the draw. The former, which interrupted matches for the better part of the tournament and converted the city's romantic, cobbled alleys into tributaries of the Seine, mysteriously seemed to hold off whenever Borg played, as though reluctant to soil the masterpieces. At one point he was two rounds ahead of practically everyone else.

Then there was his draw. In the first three rounds, Borg faced J. Lopez-Maeso of Spain, C. Motta of Brazil and P.A. Torre of France, Nos. 87,207 and 242, respectively, on your player computer. Hardly Les Trois Mousquetaires in your heart. Before Borg could figure out their first names, they were gone.

In the round of 16, he finally faced a "test" in Terry Moor from Memphis. Ranked 37th. An easy winner over a rejuvenated Ilie Nastase in the previous round. A quarterfinalist on the clay at Indianapolis and North Conway, N.H. last summer. A tough, plucky veteran. Moor had to have pluck. Alternately groveling in the dust and fairly leaping to intercept Borg's topspin drives, Moor floundered his way to love-17 before Borg's groundies briefly went awry. When Moor at last clutched one cherished game, the packed house of Parisians rose en masse, waving hats and rewarding Moor with perhaps the grandest ovation he may experience in his career. "I felt like going down into Bjorn's Wimbledon on-his-knees drop," he said.

Moor had never played Borg before. He seemed stunned. "The man is on another level," Moor said after losing love, love and that noisy, glorious one. "Maybe it has something to do with who he is, but everything was so deep, so high. Other guys, once in a while they miss. I felt lost. The thing was he looked bored. I have no idea how people beat him. I don't see how they win games."
 
Thanks for the stats and the article Krosero. I'm going to post some French Open clips from that time. They're pretty interesting to look at when thinking of this match.

fg_with_ivan_lendl.jpg


Bjorn-Borg-French-Open-1981_921008.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW4z0FnUz4o (Borg vs. Lendl, '81 FO Final)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL__OcegrbY (Borg goes up 4-0 in the 5th set with this get)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWUVDI-Uunw (Borg vs. Lendl, more extended footage of the '81 FO Final)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrOj29VX83w (Sights and sounds of the '81 FO)
 
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krosero

Legend
Some net stats I took back in '08.

Borg won 34 of 51 net approaches (67%):
6 of 7 in the first set
12 of 19 in the second
7 of 9 in the third
7 of 13 in the fourth
2 of 3 in the fifth

Lendl won 18 of 27 advances (67%):
2 of 3 in the first set
6 of 6 in the second
3 of 4 in the third
4 of 7 in the fourth
3 of 7 in the fifth

It's been years since I did these counts but just looking at the numbers again, the first thing that stands out is that Borg lost the two sets in which he came forward the most.
 
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kiki

Banned
Good match, Borg had it under control and only an excellent Lendl could carry him to a fifth set.Borg looked very much in form to me that day
 

BTURNER

Legend
Having watched this one several times, it amazes that it took Lendl four more years to win his first and Borg was not the reason. Lendl really had the game to win this over most anyone.
 

kiki

Banned
Big question here is...how tired Lendl went into the final day having had that marathon semi vs Clerc, while Borg had a lighter semifinal match vs Pecci.In the 4 th round Lendl had beaten German Open champion Peter Mc Namara in another tough match.Curiously enough, his easiest match came against Mc Enroe in the last eight round.

Borg had trounced Moor and Taroczy before playing Pecci.
 
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krosero

Legend
Just a few weeks ago the full version of Borg-Lendl '81 RG was put up on YouTube:


The copy I worked with is missing the first game and a half. Every once in a while over the years I checked YT for a full version, never found one until this upload last month.

Now with the full match in hand I went back and did service stats, break points and unreturned serves; I also made a few corrections to my original stats.

I'll put those in another post, but the big discovery in this match is that Lendl returned all of Borg's second serves: all 36 of them [correction: 32 good second serves].

@Moose Malloy , @Waspsting , @NatF , @AnOctorokForDinner , @NonP , @abmk , @WCT , @anyone else: do we know of any other such performances, where a guy doesn't miss a return even once on a second serve?

Offhand the only one I can think of is Borg returning all of Connors' second serves, 1977 Wimb final.

Didn't Hewitt do this once?

And Borg nearly did it again in this match: he missed only one of Lendl's second serves. Just 1 miss out of 60 tries, in its way just as impressive as what Lendl did. In fact when Borg made his miss he had already returned 45 second serves without missing [correction: 41 good second serves], a better streak than Lendl's.

Anyone know of a match in which all second serves were returned successfully?
 
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NatF

Bionic Poster
Just a few weeks ago the full version of Borg-Lendl '81 RG was put up on YouTube:


The copy I worked with is missing the first game and a half. Every once in a while over the years I checked YT for a full version, never found one until this upload last month.

Now with the full match in hand I went back and did service stats, break points and unreturned serves; I also made a few corrections to my original stats.

I'll put those in another post, but the big discovery in this match is that Lendl returned all of Borg's second serves: all 36 of them.

@Moose Malloy , @Waspsting , @NatF , @AnOctorokForDinner , @NonP , @abmk , @WCT , @anyone else: do we know of any other such performances, where a guy doesn't miss a return even once on a second serve?

Offhand the only one I can think of is Borg returning all of Connors' second serves, 1977 Wimb final.

Didn't Hewitt do this once?

And Borg nearly did it again in this match: he missed only one of Lendl's second serves. Just 1 miss out of 60 tries, in its way just as impressive as what Lendl did. In fact when Borg made his miss he had already returned 45 second serves without missing, a better streak than Lendl's.

Anyone know of a match in which all second serves were returned successfully?

I think Hewitt at Wimbledon in 2002 didn't miss a second serve return across at least a few matches, not sure if he maintained it for the whole thing - that seems unlikely.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Anyone know of a match in which all second serves were returned successfully?

I don't have access to my notes from the matches I've statis-tified, so can't say for sure... but I imagine its not too uncommon

Borg missed 2 returns vs Newcombe, 77 WITC (1 UE, 1 FE)
Borg missed 4 returns vs Vilas, 80 Monte Carlo (1 UE, 3 FE)
Borg missed 7 returns vs Connors, 80 Masters (4 UE, 3 FE)

The way I do stats, I tend not automatically give a forced error based on it being a first serve... and with Vilas and Connors serves, I'd probably mark missed first serve returns 'unforced'... its possible Borg did it in these matches (can't say for sure, though)

you mentioned Borg missed just 3 returns vs Vilas 80 French.... that's another possibility

I think Hewitt at Wimbledon in 2002 didn't miss a second serve return across at least a few matches, not sure if he maintained it for the whole thing - that seems unlikely.

I recall hearing he didn't miss a second serve return 'til the quarter-final
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I recall hearing he didn't miss a second serve return 'til the quarter-final

That's what I remember. I have his QF with Schalken, was planning to chart it for TA at some point so I'll see if they mention it. Used to be on my channel but bloody Wimbledon blocked it.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Just took stats for McEnroe-Lendl, Brussels 1984 on carpet

Both players missed just 1 second serve return (Mac made 19/20 and Lendl 13/14)…. so yeah, I'm guessing this isn't too uncommon

Surprise stat for that one.... Lendl won just 17% of his second serve points:eek: 4/24
 

krosero

Legend
Borg led Lendl 140-108 in total points.

So this match contained 248 points, which is actually 4 points shorter than Borg-Pecci in '79. And it's 3 points shorter than Wilander-Vilas in '82.


Borg held in 16 of 21 service games, Lendl in 11 of 20.

Borg converted 9 of 14 break points (64.3%)
Lendl converted 5 of 12 break points (41.7%)

Borg made his first serve on 3 of 12 break points (25.0%).
Lendl made his first serve on 6 of 14 break points (42.9%).


Overall service percentages, broken down by set:

BORG

21 of 25......84.0%
31 of 39......79.5%
11 of 21......52.4%
11 of 20......55.0%
19 of 24......79.2%

Full match: 93 of 129......72.1%

At one stage Borg made 17 straight first serves, including the last 13 of the first set.

LENDL

8 of 16......50.0%
12 of 26......46.2%
10 of 22......45.5%
15 of 30......50.0%
14 of 25......56.0%

Full match: 59 of 119......49.6%


Borg won 83 of 129 service points (64.3%)
Lendl won 62 of 119 service points (52.1%)

Borg was 62 of 93 on 1st serve (66.7%) and 21 of 36 on 2nd (58.3%)

Lendl was 38 of 59 on 1st serve (64.4%) and 24 of 60 on 2nd (40.0%)


Borg in rallies:
When his 1st serve was returned: 42/73 (57.5%)
When his 2nd serve was returned: 21/32 (65.6%)

Lendl in rallies:
When his 1st serve was returned: 27/48 (56.3%)
When his 2nd serve was returned: 23/55 (41.8%)



Borg served on 129 points, and 20 serves did not come back: 15.5%
Lendl served on 119 points, and 12 serves did not come back: 10.1%


There was no serve that I would regard as a service winner, with the exception of a first serve by Lendl at 3-all in the fourth. John Barrett called it an ace. Borg got a backhand on it barely and got the ball to roll a couple of times before reaching the net: a service winner, following Leo Levin's rules.


Lendl returned all of Borg’s second serves. Borg missed only one of Lendl’s.

Borg’s serve drew 12 return errors (8 FH, 4 BH), all 1st serves.

Lendl’s serve drew 9 return errors (3 FH, 6 BH), all 1st serves with only 1 exception.
 
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Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Borg in rallies
When his 1st serve was returned: 42/73 (57.5%)
When his 2nd serve was returned: 21/32 (65.6%)

Lendl in rallies:
When his 1st serve was returned: 27/48 (56.3%)
When his 2nd serve was returned: 23/55 (41.8%)

Looking at these numbers and given Borg was serving at a much higher percentage and forced more return errors... you wouldn't think this match went to 5 sets

But I guess that can happen when the sets you win are 1, 2 and 1.... the overall match stats can be deceptive

It looks to me like Lendl needed the serve to give him an edge he could nurse through to winning the point. From a neutral position, Borg is by far the better player (given Borg's first serve percentage, I'm assuming he was rolling it in and not trying to gain a big advantage with the shot?)

Some net stats I took back in '08.
Borg won 33 of 49 net approaches (67%):
Lendl won 18 of 27 advances (67%):

….and look at that. Despite coming up with the short end of the stick from the baseline, Lendl just stayed there, didn't mix it up. I remember your noting that he tended to be slow to adapt in the middle of a match

Everyone talks about McEnroe, but I miss the Borg-Lendl rivalry that never happened.... two uber consistent, percentage baseliners. Would've been fun to see how that evolved as Lendl improved and Borg got older

I've watched just one match of theirs (Masters final 1980)…. where it seemed to me that Borg was keyed in on keeping things BH-BH. I got the sense he was doing this more to not give Lendl a chance to use his big FH weapon (which I'm sure Borg could handle just fine if it came to it) and tactically fancied outlasting Lendl on the BH side more than going into the uncertainties of a FH-FH duel

Krosero, how would you describe the action and tactics of the match?
 

krosero

Legend
One more thing, the corrections to my original stats.

In the portion of the match which I had been missing, there were 2 net approaches (1 lost) by Borg, bringing his net-points total to 34 of 51.

There were no winners in that missing portion but I discovered in this run-through that I missed a BHV winner by Borg (fourth set) and a FH winner by Lendl (second set). So Borg goes up to 28 clean winners, Lendl to 36. Lendl's now has 23 (!) FH winners.

(I had also missed one double-fault by Borg in the opening game of the fifth set, bringing his match total to 4.)

Incidentally I noted 10 shots altogether (apart from serves) that could be judged as winners going by Levin's rules: 5 by each player. So if you count those Borg would have 33 non-service winners, Lendl 41. Every one of these new shots by Lendl is a forehand so his FH count would jump to 28.

I've edited all my original numbers above, to the clean winners and the net stats.

Can't believe I'm editing a 10-year-old post!
 

krosero

Legend
Looking at these numbers and given Borg was serving at a much higher percentage and forced more return errors... you wouldn't think this match went to 5 sets

But I guess that can happen when the sets you win are 1, 2 and 1.... the overall match stats can be deceptive
In a way this match was not close, which you can also in the total points won.

It looks to me like Lendl needed the serve to give him an edge he could nurse through to winning the point. From a neutral position, Borg is by far the better player (given Borg's first serve percentage, I'm assuming he was rolling it in and not trying to gain a big advantage with the shot?)
He typically rolled in the serve on clay and he did a lot of that in this match (made 17 straight first serves at one stage) but he's mixing it up more. The announcers noticed it too, how he'd catch Lendl by surprise with big serves every once in a while. And the press noted how he ended up with 8 aces, which is a fine number for him on clay.


….and look at that. Despite coming up with the short end of the stick from the baseline, Lendl just stayed there, didn't mix it up. I remember your noting that he tended to be slow to adapt in the middle of a match
That's true but Lendl didn't have a developed net game yet. I would have been surprised to see him making much of that option, on clay, this early in his career.

Later he did use that option. I think it helped him a lot to win the '87 French final against Wilander.

Everyone talks about McEnroe, but I miss the Borg-Lendl rivalry that never happened.... two uber consistent, percentage baseliners. Would've been fun to see how that evolved as Lendl improved and Borg got older

I've watched just one match of theirs (Masters final 1980)…. where it seemed to me that Borg was keyed in on keeping things BH-BH. I got the sense he was doing this more to not give Lendl a chance to use his big FH weapon (which I'm sure Borg could handle just fine if it came to it) and tactically fancied outlasting Lendl on the BH side more than going into the uncertainties of a FH-FH duel

Krosero, how would you describe the action and tactics of the match?
Funny, I just popped in that Masters match as well (I'm under the weather, at home). Indoor match, much harder hitting. I heard Tony Trabert say that Lendl was keeping his BH crosscourt because he wanted to stay away from Borg's FH, and that Lendl normally drives the BH up the line more. Though you sure didn't see it in Lendl's French Open matches against Wilander -- endless BH to BH rallies despite the fact that Wilander's FH was nothing to fear.

Anyway Trabert related that Borg had said he was going to go for depth in this Masters match -- that this was the way to neutralize Lendl.

I think it was very similar in the French final. Borg is often looping the ball excessively even when he could do more. But he's not just trying to outlast Lendl, the way he could do so reliably do with Vilas. Lendl was far more dangerous, and though there's a lot of looping and grinding, Borg does pounce when he can, with his groundies and also with a lot of net approaches (a lot for him). And at all times he does seem concerned with getting good length, keeping Lendl back, etc.

Lendl does very much the same, but almost entirely with his FH. That FH was the perfect weapon, to pounce on an opportunity and end a point. Lendl made several FH winners from the opposite baseline (not passing shots). And that just wasn't typical in those days, especially on clay. I think at least on one occasion Borg could actually have gotten on a racquet on Lendl's forehand but was beaten because he wasn't expecting it.

I agree, it would have been fascinating to see this rivalry evolve.
 

krosero

Legend
I don't have access to my notes from the matches I've statis-tified, so can't say for sure... but I imagine its not too uncommon

Borg missed 2 returns vs Newcombe, 77 WITC (1 UE, 1 FE)
Borg missed 4 returns vs Vilas, 80 Monte Carlo (1 UE, 3 FE)
Borg missed 7 returns vs Connors, 80 Masters (4 UE, 3 FE)

The way I do stats, I tend not automatically give a forced error based on it being a first serve... and with Vilas and Connors serves, I'd probably mark missed first serve returns 'unforced'... its possible Borg did it in these matches (can't say for sure, though)

you mentioned Borg missed just 3 returns vs Vilas 80 French.... that's another possibility



I recall hearing he didn't miss a second serve return 'til the quarter-final
I can't yet find any other instances in the matches that Moose and I have done. I've run some rough searches and found something like three dozen matches in which we tracked unreturned serves and divided them by 1st and 2nd. My searches could have missed something; and maybe Moose has done more matches that I don't know about. But in the three-dozen-or-so matches, I could find only two instances of a player not missing a 2nd serve return: Borg-Connors 1977 Wimb final and Lendl in this '81 RG final.

Now, the matches I found in these searches are weighted heavily toward early-OE GS finals on grass, in best-of-five matches. I think in shorter matches you're bound to see this more (Borg accomplished it in the first 3 sets against Lendl). And off grass, it should be more likely.

One match I found came very close: Wilander missed just one of Lendl's second serves in the 1987 RG final.

Another factor is that our matches are weighted heavily with late-round matches. A top champion in earlier rounds -- like the Hewitt example -- should have a better chance of doing this.

It could very well be quite common. But I doubt it's common in GS finals. For now, Borg '77W and Lendl '81RG stand out.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Another factor is that our matches are weighted heavily with late-round matches. A top champion in earlier rounds -- like the Hewitt example -- should have a better chance of doing this.

That's what I was thinking too.

From what I've seen of Borg in particular, but others too, they come so close to feats like this - in big finals and/or against top level players (the only type of matches I watch), that I'm sure they accomplished things like this fairly regularly in early rounds and/or against not great competition.

A feat that captured my imagination was one you started years ago concerning a returner hitting 4 consecutive winners. Didn't think that'd be common at all.

By the time I'd statis-tified about 20 matches, I'd come across 4 instances. In 4-5 matches of Andre Agassi, I came across 2 instances... and he hit 3 in a row a couple of other times

This is against guys like Boris Becker, Todd Martin in the US Open final and Stefan Edberg at the YEC final.... the crème de la crème of tennis. If in the microscopically tiny sample of matches I'm looking at it he's done it twice… I imagine he did it fairly regularly - my guess would be a few times every season - especially against weaker opposition.

I imagine returning every second serve in a match would be similar... I'd bet my bile duct Borg did it dozens of times, particularly on clay. Others too, but he's had the highest return rates that I've seen... like Nadal today, his focus is getting the ball back in play, without much thought of snatching the initiative with the shot. He barely misses a first serve return, I'm sure he can manage all the 2nds

Returning every second serve on grass for 5 sets though remains highly impressive even if the server wasn't too powerful or charging the net much


Funny, I just popped in that Masters match as well (I'm under the weather, at home). Indoor match, much harder hitting. I heard Tony Trabert say that Lendl was keeping his BH crosscourt because he wanted to stay away from Borg's FH, and that Lendl normally drives the BH up the line more. Though you sure didn't see it in Lendl's French Open matches against Wilander -- endless BH to BH rallies despite the fact that Wilander's FH was nothing to fear.

Anyway Trabert related that Borg had said he was going to go for depth in this Masters match -- that this was the way to neutralize Lendl.

I think it was very similar in the French final. Borg is often looping the ball excessively even when he could do more. But he's not just trying to outlast Lendl, the way he could do so reliably do with Vilas. Lendl was far more dangerous, and though there's a lot of looping and grinding, Borg does pounce when he can, with his groundies and also with a lot of net approaches (a lot for him). And at all times he does seem concerned with getting good length, keeping Lendl back, etc.

Lendl does very much the same, but almost entirely with his FH. That FH was the perfect weapon, to pounce on an opportunity and end a point. Lendl made several FH winners from the opposite baseline (not passing shots). And that just wasn't typical in those days, especially on clay. I think at least on one occasion Borg could actually have gotten on a racquet on Lendl's forehand but was beaten because he wasn't expecting it.

Thanks, great stuff!

I'm with you regarding Lendl's BH patterns.... I see him going in for, and completely comfortable with who-blinks-first BH-BH exchanges.
It occurred to me he might even have picked this up from Borg, who I've seen do the same thing

Sign of changing times.... the guy with the best FH in the world using a BH-BH outlasting strategy

Imagine Roger Federer doing that:oops: - He'd run around the BH and hit a FH with point ending force

You couldn't get that kind of power with those racquets of Borg or Lendl's, so they needed to develop more ways to terminate a point
 

krosero

Legend
That's what I was thinking too.

From what I've seen of Borg in particular, but others too, they come so close to feats like this - in big finals and/or against top level players (the only type of matches I watch), that I'm sure they accomplished things like this fairly regularly in early rounds and/or against not great competition.

A feat that captured my imagination was one you started years ago concerning a returner hitting 4 consecutive winners. Didn't think that'd be common at all.

By the time I'd statis-tified about 20 matches, I'd come across 4 instances. In 4-5 matches of Andre Agassi, I came across 2 instances... and he hit 3 in a row a couple of other times

This is against guys like Boris Becker, Todd Martin in the US Open final and Stefan Edberg at the YEC final.... the crème de la crème of tennis. If in the microscopically tiny sample of matches I'm looking at it he's done it twice… I imagine he did it fairly regularly - my guess would be a few times every season - especially against weaker opposition.

I imagine returning every second serve in a match would be similar... I'd bet my bile duct Borg did it dozens of times, particularly on clay. Others too, but he's had the highest return rates that I've seen... like Nadal today, his focus is getting the ball back in play, without much thought of snatching the initiative with the shot. He barely misses a first serve return, I'm sure he can manage all the 2nds

Returning every second serve on grass for 5 sets though remains highly impressive even if the server wasn't too powerful or charging the net much
I do think we're going to find more, particularly with Borg on clay. And against lesser opponents in early rounds, he may very well have done it routinely.

Missing a 2nd serve return if you're trying to attack is a "good miss" but Borg didn't try to do that on clay so he was definitely going to try put the ball back in play. He did that by intentional strategy (his 1980 book talks about it) and by temperament; and also because he didn't need to take a risk. He was so seldom pushed on clay, and he knew he could rally with anybody, so why would he even need to take a risk attacking a second serve?

I missed one other GS final where this happened, 1979 RG. Pecci returned all of Borg's 2nd serves: but there were only 8 in the match. Borg's 1st-serve % was 93%.

Leconte has a good chance here too, in the '88 RG final; Wilander missed only 2 first serves.
 

BringBackWood

Professional
Just took stats for McEnroe-Lendl, Brussels 1984 on carpet

Both players missed just 1 second serve return (Mac made 19/20 and Lendl 13/14)…. so yeah, I'm guessing this isn't too uncommon

Surprise stat for that one.... Lendl won just 17% of his second serve points:eek: 4/24

Please can you post the Brussels stats when you have time? Heard it was one of Mcenroe's best perfomances. Cheers
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Please can you post the Brussels stats when you have time? Heard it was one of Mcenroe's best perfomances. Cheers

Sure, will post up in detail when I have time. For now, briefly....

1st serve %age... Mac 66, Lendl 45
1st serve % won... Mac 86, Lendl 80
2nd serve % won... Mac 60, Lendl 17
Aces/Doubles... Mac 8/1, Lendl 1/4
Unreturned serve %... Mac 43, Lendl 14
Break Points... Mac 4/4, Lendl 0
Winners... Mac 17 (9 groundstrokes, 8 volleys/smashes), Lendl 12 (8 groundstrokes, 4 volleys/smashes)
Unforced Errors... Mac 3, Lendl 3
Forced Errors... Mac 8, Lendl 15
Net Points... Mac 32/46 @ 70%, Lendl 10/13 @ 77%

Mac won 58 points, Lendl 30

points of interest, Lendl serve-volleying on about 50% of his first serve points - 10/19 (1 was an ace, don't recall if he was trying to serve-volley on that too)…. which is very high for him off grass. And no volleying errors - forced or unforced for him in the match

@Drob might find this interesting as well
 

BringBackWood

Professional
points of interest, Lendl serve-volleying on about 50% of his first serve points - 10/19 (1 was an ace, don't recall if he was trying to serve-volley on that too)…. which is very high for him off grass. And no volleying errors - forced or unforced for him in the match

@Drob might find this interesting as well

I guess that explain why Mac had more groundstoke than volley winners, if they were passing shots. Of Mcenroe matches you've seen how would you rate level of play? Match almost seems too short to gauge it.
 

Drob

Hall of Fame
Sure, will post up in detail when I have time. For now, briefly....

1st serve %age... Mac 66, Lendl 45
1st serve % won... Mac 86, Lendl 80
2nd serve % won... Mac 60, Lendl 17
Aces/Doubles... Mac 8/1, Lendl 1/4
Unreturned serve %... Mac 43, Lendl 14
Break Points... Mac 4/4, Lendl 0
Winners... Mac 17 (9 groundstrokes, 8 volleys/smashes), Lendl 12 (8 groundstrokes, 4 volleys/smashes)
Unforced Errors... Mac 3, Lendl 3
Forced Errors... Mac 8, Lendl 15
Net Points... Mac 32/46 @ 70%, Lendl 10/13 @ 77%

Mac won 58 points, Lendl 30

points of interest, Lendl serve-volleying on about 50% of his first serve points - 10/19 (1 was an ace, don't recall if he was trying to serve-volley on that too)…. which is very high for him off grass. And no volleying errors - forced or unforced for him in the match

@Drob might find this interesting as well


Do your stats show that in the roughly 1984-87 period or so, Lendl would serve/volley on carpet, but not on hard court (including indoor hard court) , w the 1985 USO final being the exception that proved the rule).
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
I'll start a thread on this match (might be a few days), let's save the deeper discussion til then

I guess that explain why Mac had more groundstoke than volley winners, if they were passing shots. Of Mcenroe matches you've seen how would you rate level of play? Match almost seems too short to gauge it.

Don't think that's it. With Lendl winning 10/13 net points - that's a maximum 3 passing winners Mac could have made

Think Mac's uncharacteristic groundstrokes to volley winners ratio has more to do with a huge unreturned serve percentage - basically, he didn't have much scope to hit volley winners

Level of play very high - the returning in particular. Equal parts aggressive and consistent

Do your stats show that in the roughly 1984-87 period or so, Lendl would serve/volley on carpet, but not on hard court (including indoor hard court) , w the 1985 USO final being the exception that proved the rule).

Sample size is so small that I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions

My stats indicate Lendl just didn't go in for serve-volleying at all off grass. 2-4 times a match being typical

USO 85 final was exceptional - and this match too.... I wonder if this was something he specifically did against McEnroe (take the net to keep Mac from it, attack as a form of defence)

Mac was apt to occasionally chip-charge return even Lendl's 1st serve.... so serve-volleying was just about the only way to avoid being under attack

In 90 USO quarters, Pete Sampras was virtually moonballing returns and Lendl still didn't serve-volley

I think Lendl is a fine volleyer but generally, just doesn't care for it.... he seems disinclined to take risks and is rooted more strongly than most in his comfort zone (high percentage baseline stuff)

In 86 Masters final, he executes a textbook chip-charge return + stop volley winner..... Mac himself would have been proud. But he only does it once
 

Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
How was it possible for these two players to generate a high quality match without using metal or graphite racquets?

I thought that everyone playing before 2000 was using an outmoded technology.

This cannot be possible, in spite of what we see here.
 
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BringBackWood

Professional
Interesting match. It strengthened my view that Lendl was not that good at taking the ball early, or at least was not comfortable at it. See also his 89 4th rnd against Chang.
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
How was it possible for these two players to generate a high quality match without using metal or graphite racquets?

I thought that everyone playing before 2000 was using an outmoded technology.

This cannot be possible, in spite of what we see here.
There was no tennis before 2000. :unsure:
 

BringBackWood

Professional
Post match Borg: 'I think Ivan & me will have lots more close matches' 'I haven't signed a 5 year contract' 'I hope to attempt the GrandSlam this year' (in those days AO was last)
Effectively retired by the end of the year.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Lendl did very well to get to the final, brushing aside McEnroe in the quarters and winning a tough 5 set semi-final against Clerc (who was a nemesis for him that year beating him in Rome, North Conway and Indianapolis), and then taking Borg to 5 sets in final. But I always thought that this match was one of the most uncompetitive / one-sided 5 set matches that I've ever seen, if that makes sense, with Borg clearly the superior player. I thought that Federer-Haas at the 2006 AO also fit that category and I personally thought that he felt under more pressure in his following QF against Davydenko despite that match 'only' lasting 4 sets.

There were question marks about Borg's form going into that RG that year and it was widely thought that he was on the decline. His only tune-up match was a defeat to Pecci (with a first set bagel) at Monte-Carlo, as he struggled with shoulder problems. Of course he had set such high standards in previous years that not reaching those levels again would lead to reports of his demise; Lennart Bergelin said that his 1980 RG form was basically clay court perfection and Borg's absolute peak with no room for further improvement. However once he got to RG he looked to silence his doubters, and he was in excellent form on his way to the final (not dropping a set and not being taken a tiebreaker).

I wish that the Borg-Lendl rivalry could have been allowed to develop. In 1982 Lendl had a perfect 40-0 record in official indoor matches including some one-sided wins over McEnroe and Connors, but in big money invitationals under a roof that year Borg beat him 3 times out of 4.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
@krosero ...

confirming a few old matches

Borg did return all of Vilas' 2nd serves (22 sans double faults) in Monte Carlo 1980

1 miss -
- Borg vs Connors '80 Masters semi (total non-double second serves 18)
- Borg vs Newcombe '77 WITC (23 with 1 game Borg broke in missing)
- McEnroe vs Connors '79 US Open semi (13)
- Djokovic vs del Potro 2018 US Open final (31)

skimming through my match sheets, 2 misses seems to be pretty common... even guys like Becker have them, so I'm surprised we haven't found more 0s

Watching a match knowing the outcome, as a stats taker I fall back on getting my 'what happens next' thrills from looking for peculiarities like this

In the last mentioned match, Djoko was going 100% going into the 3rd set. He missed the penultimate 2nd serve return

Another remarkable almost achievement.... Nadal vs Agassi '06 Wimby…. Nadal had 0 BH UEs (by my judgment) going into the 3rd set. He made 1 in the middle of the set, but that had erroneously been called out (and some might judge it a FE). But 2nd last point of the match, he netted a routine BH that I think everyone would agree was a UE
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
I have Mats Wilander missing 1 second serve return out of 77 against Lendl, French Open 1982 (with one Lendl service game in which Lendl held cutting off at 30-30)

And you know the really funny thing? The miss was 1 of the softest second serves Lendl threw out
 

krosero

Legend
I have Mats Wilander missing 1 second serve return out of 77 against Lendl, French Open 1982 (with one Lendl service game in which Lendl held cutting off at 30-30)

And you know the really funny thing? The miss was 1 of the softest second serves Lendl threw out
That's great, and please posts more stats on that match if you have 'em

Incidentally I checked and Leconte did return the two (2!) second serves he saw from Wilander in the '88 RG final.

I fixed my Borg-Lendl return numbers above; somehow I'd included the df's
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Big question here is...how tired Lendl went into the final day having had that marathon semi vs Clerc, while Borg had a lighter semifinal match vs Pecci.In the 4 th round Lendl had beaten German Open champion Peter Mc Namara in another tough match. Curiously enough, his easiest match came against Mc Enroe in the last eight round.

Borg had trounced Moor and Taroczy before playing Pecci.
Yes. By the fifth set Lendl was spent. Watch Lendl's foot work here: slightly slow, reactive not anticipatory, behind.

All of Borg's matches up to the final were straight set wins. (Borg's fourth round win over Terry Moor was incredibly one-sided: two bagels and a breadstick.) Still bouncing and superbly fit, even in the fifth set of the final Borg could have run all day.
 
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Waspsting

Hall of Fame
That's great, and please posts more stats on that match if you have 'em

Incidentally I checked and Leconte did return the two (2!) second serves he saw from Wilander in the '88 RG final.

I fixed my Borg-Lendl return numbers above; somehow I'd included the df's

Lendl missing 1/34 second serve returns vs Mecir, Hamburg 1987
McEnroe missing 1/20 vs Gerulaitis, Forest Hills 1983

Missed 1 or 2 seems to very common... so its surprising we've found so few 0s.

From now on, I'll update only with 0s or missing 1 only if there's a large number of second serves... list would get too big otherwise I think
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Lendl returning 29/29 second serves vs Boris Becker, Indianapolis 1985 (with 1 Becker service point - unknown if 1st or 2nd - missing)

2 other unknown points missing, but Lendl won those so they couldn't have been unreturned
 
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Waspsting

Hall of Fame
Mats Wilander returning 45/45 second serves vs Ivan Lendl, French Open 1984 (with 1 Lendl service point - unknown 1st or 2nd - missing... and a small amount of educated guessing about what were second serves)

Lendl himself missed just 1, but only faced 10... and has the highest return rate for a completed match I've come across 92/96 @ 96%

I have Mats Wilander missing 1 second serve return out of 77 against Lendl, French Open 1982 (with one Lendl service game in which Lendl held cutting off at 30-30)

combining with this, Wilander made all but 1 of 122 second serve returns against Lendl over two matches

Makes one wonder how often he returned 100% second serves against all comers on clay
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
Mats Wilander returning 45/45 second serves vs Ivan Lendl, French Open 1984 (with 1 Lendl service point - unknown 1st or 2nd - missing... and a small amount of educated guessing about what were second serves)

Lendl himself missed just 1, but only faced 10... and has the highest return rate for a completed match I've come across 92/96 @ 96%



combining with this, Wilander made all but 1 of 122 second serve returns against Lendl over two matches

Makes one wonder how often he returned 100% second serves against all comers on clay

According to my stats here, https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...1987-french-open-final-lendl-wilander.450131/
Wilander missed one 2nd serve return vs Lendl in 87 RG Final. So he made 61/62 2nd serve returns. I have more stats on the 85 RG final as well.

According to my stats here https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/stats-for-1982-rg-final-wilander-vilas.196640/
Both Wilander and Vilas missed only one 2nd serve return. Vilas had a return rate of 94%, Wilander 93%.

According to my stats here https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-1982-french-open-qf-higueras-connors.474398/
Higueras had a 93% return rate vs Connors at 82 RG

I have a lot of Wilander matches(many not on YouTube), will look up my stats on them.

As far as high return rates, wouldn't be surprised to see Evert at 96% in some of her Clay matches(krosero and I have posted stats on several of her matches)

According to Krosero stats
Borg made 95% of returns vs Vilas in the 78 RG final
 
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hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Gotta hand it to Lendl. This was pre-bionic, scrawny, skinny Lendl . . . and he still took Borg to five.

Quite a feat.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
... I doubt it's common in GS finals (to return all second serves). For now, Borg '77W and Lendl '81RG stand out.
I missed one other GS final where this happened, 1979 RG. Pecci returned all of Borg's 2nd serves: but there were only 8 in the match
Incidentally I checked and Leconte did return the two (2!) second serves he saw from Wilander in the '88 RG final.
Nadal returned 24/24 second serve returns vs Federer, French Open 2008
Correcting - Tsitsipas missed the very first second serve return - and then made 30/30 to follow.

Pity. Would have liked to put him in there with the likes of Borg, Lendl and Nadal

Almost found a beauty

Tsitsipas returned 31/31 second serves vs Djokovic, Australian Open, 2023


So far, the guys we've found who've done this

- Borg 45 at '77 Wimbledon
- Lendl 33 at '81 French
- Tsitsipas 31 at '23 Australian
- Nadal 29 at '20 French
- Nadal 24 at '08 French
----------------
- Pecci 8 at '79 French
- Leconte 2 at '88 French
 
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WCT

Professional
Didn't lose a set to the finals, though. So, at the time, I was impressed by Lendl taking him that far. Lendl himself doesn't seem that impressed, He always says the sets he lost weren't close.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
I have Mats Wilander returning all second serves in the '82 French final - 61 or 62 (there's a point missing I'm missing serve and return data for, but its returned)

@Moose Malloy - i see you had him missing 1 such return. longshot - do you have your notes about which point that might be?


So far, the guys we've found who've done this

- Wilander 61 (or 62) at '82 French
- Borg 45 at '77 Wimbledon
- Lendl 33 at '81 French
- Nadal 29 at '20 French
- Nadal 24 at '08 French
----------------
- Pecci 8 at '79 French
- Leconte 2 at '88 French
 
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