The Federer goalpost movement

mxmx

Hall of Fame
Federer is awesome in his later 30's. He would have been great in any era...

But...

For some reason no one believes that when Sampras faced older players in the 90's that they too could have been great at the end of their careers. The likes of Lendl, Becker and Edberg (could name many more) could, like Federer, also have been extremely tough competition.

If someone like Zverev/any next gen had to be the next big thing, then people will say "but he faced an old Federer".

To me people are moving the goalposts for Federer by saying that Sampras faced weak competition when, by the same definition, he too could be past the expiry date. I watched both eras and still know, that many people have no clue about what happened in the 90's.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
Edberg was almost completely finished after 1992. He was irrelevant in Sampras' era as was Lendl.

Becker won a slam in 1996 and made a few Wimbledon finals so he had more impact on that era but he isn't anywhere near as good as old Federer. 3 times the amount of slams, FFS.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Lendl and Becker declined quite sharply because of injuries; Lendl was a non-factor after 1992 and Becker after 1996. When Sampras beat Lendl in 1990 USO and Becker in 1995 Wimbledon, those were strong wins, but his 1994 AO and 1997 Wimbledon victories over them were routine and not noteworthy. Edberg declined a bit more gradually though still quickly, and still gave Sampras good BO3 fights in 1994-95.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Federer is awesome in his later 30's. He would have been great in any era...

But...

For some reason no one believes that when Sampras faced older players in the 90's that they too could have been great at the end of their careers. The likes of Lendl, Becker and Edberg (could name many more) could, like Federer, also have been extremely tough competition.

If someone like Zverev/any next gen had to be the next big thing, then people will say "but he faced an old Federer".

To me people are moving the goalposts for Federer by saying that Sampras faced weak competition when, by the same definition, he too could be past the expiry date. I watched both eras and still know, that many people have no clue about what happened in the 90's.
The same arguments can be made in any era. ATGs have to struggle to make their way to the top, then they have a period of peak/dominance. Then later they struggle to hold on. Always older players start to look weak against younger ones. You can get a good feel for how screwed up impressions are by looking at ATP career stats and seeing how those stats are horribly wrong for guys who peaked well ahead of the 90s.
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Lendl and Becker declined quite sharply because of injuries; Lendl was a non-factor after 1992 and Becker after 1996. When Sampras beat Lendl in 1990 USO and Becker in 1995 Wimbledon, those were strong wins, but his 1994 AO and 1997 Wimbledon victories over them were routine and not noteworthy. Edberg declined a bit more gradually though still quickly, and still gave Sampras good BO3 fights in 1994-95.
It's hard to judge aging players from then because players aged so much faster and declined so much faster. The drugs back then were not as effective. ;) (I'm kidding somewhat, but not completely...)
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Recency bias will always win out and will eventually even marginalize the big three. People always have an inclination to believe that what they are seeing is the greatest ever.
True to some extent, but I think it won't marginalise Fedalovic. They've done too much for that. Recency bias has their matches hyped up as "better than ever" though.

I do hope they'll win everything for the next few Slams still, I want the current next gen completely erased from relevance
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Federer is awesome in his later 30's. He would have been great in any era...

But...

For some reason no one believes that when Sampras faced older players in the 90's that they too could have been great at the end of their careers. The likes of Lendl, Becker and Edberg (could name many more) could, like Federer, also have been extremely tough competition.

If someone like Zverev/any next gen had to be the next big thing, then people will say "but he faced an old Federer".

To me people are moving the goalposts for Federer by saying that Sampras faced weak competition when, by the same definition, he too could be past the expiry date. I watched both eras and still know, that many people have no clue about what happened in the 90's.

Zverev..!! People say that even for Djokovic.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Didn't you want the same for the previous gen, though? How long will that continue? You seem to hate the newcomers more than the big 3 which is counterintuitive: the big three have had advantages for ages. So much privileges and still so little criticism compared to the poor next genners.

:cool:
I just think none of the nextgenners are worthy of Grand Slams and they wouldn't have made the top 15 in any era before this one.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Lendl and Becker declined quite sharply because of injuries; Lendl was a non-factor after 1992 and Becker after 1996. When Sampras beat Lendl in 1990 USO and Becker in 1995 Wimbledon, those were strong wins, but his 1994 AO and 1997 Wimbledon victories over them were routine and not noteworthy. Edberg declined a bit more gradually though still quickly, and still gave Sampras good BO3 fights in 1994-95.

The 1995 Wimby win was good, but Becker was dropping double fault after double fault. The Ivanisevic win was more impressive despite Goran being slamless at the time. Of course Pete fans will talk up Goran as well while downplaying other similar but more achieved players...
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
The 1995 Wimby win was good, but Becker was dropping double fault after double fault. The Ivanisevic win was more impressive despite Goran being slamless at the time. Of course Pete fans will talk up Goran as well while downplaying other similar but more achieved players...

That's true as well. Still, Becker was seen as dangerous enough that Sampras felt like bringing his best, which is what matters in the end. He did in fact give Pete mild trouble taking the first set. Can't say that about '97 Becker, double breastick lul.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
That's true as well. Still, Becker was seen as dangerous enough that Sampras felt like bringing his best, which is what matters in the end. He did in fact give Pete mild trouble taking the first set. Can't say that about '97 Becker, double breastick lul.

The last three sets from Sampras in the final were insane stuff, his impervious best.
 

bjsnider

Hall of Fame
Sampras had to face the Boomers at the ends of their careers, and there were a lot more of them, by definition, than there have been any generation since. Granted, they were already on life support by the time Sampras was around 20 years old, but the large number of great players from that generation would still have been a potent force to overcome.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
To me people are moving the goalposts for Federer by saying that Sampras faced weak competition when, by the same definition, he too could be past the expiry date. I watched both eras and still know, that many people have no clue about what happened in the 90's.

Of course Federer faces weak competition. Remove just two players--Nadal and Djokovic--and the majority of the rest are among the worst male players in tennis history. The ATP-lovers' overrated "next generation" are members of the Can't Win A Major Legion (Thiem, Nishikori, Kyrgios, Isner, Dimitrov, Simon, Pospisil, Tomic, Querry, et al), There's one major left this year, and as of this date, the members of that Legion have consistently failed to do their job and break through to win majors. This is the "great" ATP competition Federer has faced. This "next generation" are simply aging losers collecting checks for showing up, and rolling over as they have been for their entire careers, yet the usual Federer-obsessed members attempt to cherry pick / spin the competition of Sampras, Laver and anyone else, all to keep that false, tin crown on Federer.
 

thrust

Legend
It's hard to judge aging players from then because players aged so much faster and declined so much faster. The drugs back then were not as effective. ;) (I'm kidding somewhat, but not completely...)
Perhaps you meant to say sports medicine? LOL!
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Edberg was almost completely finished after 1992. He was irrelevant in Sampras' era as was Lendl.

Stefan emerges from his irrelevancy in the Sampras era by beating Pete's ass in the 1992 USO final and regaining the #1 ranking. There's no way anyone can say he was irrelevant under those conditions. Their H2H was 8-6 Pete and 2-2 from 1993 on.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Stefan emerges from his irrelevancy in the Sampras era by beating Pete's ass in the 1992 USO final and regaining the #1 ranking. There's no way anyone can say he was irrelevant under those conditions. Their H2H was 8-6 Pete and 2-2 from 1993 on.

Edberg was a nemesis of Pete's in the early 90's and contributed to the early 90's being so stacked, but he wasn't really a main rival of Pete once he hit his stride e.g. he was outside the top 10 by 1995 and no longer a factor at the slams post AO 1994. He's frequently named by some on here as grass competition for Sampras when they never met on grass...
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Recency bias will always win out and will eventually even marginalize the big three. People always have an inclination to believe that what they are seeing is the greatest ever.

In all fairness though, the numbers of Slams and other titles the current Big 3 are racking up (compared to the greats of yesteryear) does give some credence to the recency bias.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
Stefan emerges from his irrelevancy in the Sampras era by beating Pete's ass in the 1992 USO final and regaining the #1 ranking. There's no way anyone can say he was irrelevant under those conditions. Their H2H was 8-6 Pete and 2-2 from 1993 on.
1992 wasn't the Sampras era.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Edberg was a nemesis of Pete's in the early 90's and contributed to the early 90's being so stacked, but he wasn't really a main rival of Pete once he hit his stride e.g. he was outside the top 10 by 1995 and no longer a factor at the slams post AO 1994. He's frequently named by some on here as grass competition for Sampras when they never met on grass...


Yeah, I remember people including Edberg as grass comp for Sampras when they never contested a match.


In reality, as funny as this sounds, Sampras was much stiffer grass competition for Federer than Edberg ever was for Sampras hahaha.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Yeah I’ll echo some of the sentiments here and say that Sampras gets credit for beating some great players that he

a) didn’t actually play very much by virtue of them being on the outs
b) played before his own peak occurred (important because of how vaunted his ‘93-‘97 run is) or when they were outside of their peaks but stuck around
c) got beat by, thus making it kind of silly to think his record is propped up by mentioning them
d) a combo of A + B

As such, fans of Sampras mythologize his competition with the same reckless abandon as detractors when they disparage it. I don’t think Sampras had weak competition at all, and he had to face a very eclectic set of conditions that came with its own set of problems, but it certainly wasn’t decidedly better than Fed’s IMW. Let’s examine some of the frequently cited names and which of the four categories they fall under, if any:

Agassi: none of the above, genuinely strong ATG opponent. That said, if I wanna get hyper-critical I could mention that he only really put everything together and maximized his talent when Sampras was 28 and already won 11 of his 14 majors. Before then they ‘only’ faced off five times in majors...once on clay where Sampras likely wasn’t going all the way and got blitzed, and once at Wimby when Agassi had to alter his serve due to a wrist injury. Great as he was, Agassi wasn’t as around during Pete’s peak as some would think.

Edberg: B. Their first five meetings were before ‘93. After ‘92, Edberg reached only three tier one (major, M1000 equivalent, YEC) finals, yet 8 of their 13 meetings occurred after then, and as alluded to he was never Pete’s foe on grass.

Stich: C. Yes, Stich was a very strong opponent but he won 5 of their 9 matches despite being an inferior player, and he was 3-2 against Pete during the latter’s prime. To Sampras’s credit though, he won their lone GS match in impressive fashion during Stich’s prime.

Krajicek: C, C, C. I understand that Krajicek played a devastating match, and tournament, in ‘96 Wimby but he beat Pete again and again during his prime despite being several historical tiers below him. I’m not sure how mentioning Krajicek makes Sampras look better when RK won 6 of their 10 matches (6 of their first 8, all occurring during Pete’s prime), and went 1-1 in majors against him with the loss being a match where he was a set to the good and up something like 5-0 in the tiebreak before Sampras squared things. Particularly don’t see how he boosts PS’s cred on grass when, again, they played one match and it was lopsidedly in RK’s favour.

Lendl: B, their peaks didn’t even momentarily overlap but Sampras did notch an impressive win over him at the ‘90 Open.

Courier: B, primes did not overlap but doubtlessly prime Sampras would get the better of any version of Courier over a series of matches anyway, so he gets a pass here.

Becker: A bit of B. Becker was a dangerous player into his late 20’s but the mileage and lifestyle caught up to him in the early 90s. He wasn’t in his prime from ‘93-‘97 but stuck around as a dangerous contender.

Ivanisevic: none of the above, quality opponent on fast courts.

Rafter: mostly ditto but didn’t really challenge Sampras when he was running roughshod over the tour from ‘93-‘97. Nonetheless, Pete held up very well even once Rafter hit his peak and Sampras left his.

Wilander + McEnroe: played a combined 6 matches against them, none of which really hold any historical significance.


That era featured enough formidable early-round floaters and depth to make to salvage the status of the competition, but just as today’s tour is top-heavy and lacking in depth, the 90s tour was the polar opposite.
 
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Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Yeah I’ll echo some of the sentiments here and say that Sampras gets credit for beating some great players that he either

a) didn’t actually play very much by virtue of them being on the outs
b) played before his own peak occurred (important because of how vaunted his ‘93-‘97 run is) or when they were outside of their peaks but stuck around
c) got beat by, thus making it kind of silly to think his record is propped up by mentioning them
d) a combo of A + B

As such, fans of Sampras mythologize his competition with the same reckless abandon as detractors when they disparage it. I don’t think Sampras had weak competition at all, and he had to face a very eclectic set of conditions that came with its own set of problems, but it certainly wasn’t decidedly better than Fed’s IMW. Let’s examine some of the frequently cited names and which of the four categories they fall under, if any:

Agassi: none of the above, genuinely strong ATG opponent. That said, if I wanna get hyper-critical I couldmention that he only really put everything together and maximized his talent when Sampras was 28 and already won 11 of his 14 majors. Before then they ‘only’ faced off five times in majors...once on clay where Sampras likely wasn’t going all the way and got blitzed, and once at Wimby when Agassi had to alter his serve due to a shoulder injury. Great as he was, Agassi wasn’t as around during Pete’s peak as some would think.

Edberg: B. Their first five meetings were before ‘93. After ‘92, Edberg reached only three tier one (major, M1000 equivalent, YEC) finals, yet 8 of their 13 meetings occurred after then, and as alluded to he was never Pete’s foe on grass.

Stich: C. Yes, Stich was a very strong opponent but he won 5 of their 9 matches despite being an inferior player, and he was 3-2 against Pete during the latter’s prime. To Sampras’s credit though, he won their lone GS match in impressive fashion during Stich’s prime.

Krajicek: C, C, C. I understand that Krajicek played a devastating match, and tournament, in ‘96 Wimby but he beat Pete again and again during his prime despite being several historical tiers below him. I’m not sure how mentioning Krajicek makes Sampras look better when RK won 6 of their 10 matches (6 of their first 8, all occurring during Pete’s prime), and went 1-1 in majors against him with the loss being a match where he was a set to the good and up something like 5-0 in the tiebreak before Sampras squared things. Particularly don’t see how he boosts PS’s cred on grass when, again, they played one match and it was lopsidedly in RK’s favour.

Lendl: B, their peaks didn’t even momentarily overlap but Sampras did notch an impressive win over him at the ‘90 Open.

Courier: B, primes did not overlap but doubtlessly prime Sampras would get the better of any version of Courier over a series of matches anyway, so he gets a pass here.

Becker: A bit of B. Becker was a dangerous player into his late 20’s but the mileage and lifestyle caught up to him in the early 90s. He wasn’t in his prime from ‘93-‘97 but stuck around as a dangerous contender.

Ivanisevic: none of the above, quality opponent on fast courts.

Rafter: mostly ditto but didn’t really challenge Sampras when he was running roughshod over the tour from ‘93-‘97. Nonetheless, Pete held up very well even once Rafter hit his peak and Sampras left his.

Wilander + McEnroe: played a combined 6 matches against them, none of which really hold any historical significance.


That era featured enough formidable early-round floaters and depth to make to salvage the status of the competition, but just as today’s tour is top-heavy and lacking in depth, the 90s tour was the polar opposite.
The floaters of today just win less big tournaments and therefor stop looking like genuine floaters. It's only in in the last year or so there aren't any left really.

If you look at the Big 4 and their head to heads against the rest of the fields, there are only 2 losing ones over more than 7 matches I believe. Nadal is 5-6 vs Davydenko and Djoko is 4-5 vs Roddick and that's it. Fed is 2-4 vs Thiem so he'll be down when he plays them next time, but they have been nothing short of astonishing agains the rest of the field. And in this case that includes Murray as well.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
The floaters of today just win less big tournaments and therefor stop looking like genuine floaters. It's only in in the last year or so there aren't any left really.

If you look at the Big 4 and their head to heads against the rest of the fields, there are only 2 losing ones over more than 7 matches I believe. Nadal is 5-6 vs Davydenko and Djoko is 4-5 vs Roddick and that's it. Fed is 2-4 vs Thiem so he'll be down when he plays them next time, but they have been nothing short of astonishing agains the rest of the field. And in this case that includes Murray as well.

Disagree a bit with the first paragraph but yeah, agree otherwise. They’ve all surpassed Sampras IMO, don’t get me wrong, I just think Pete’s career doesn’t really get appraised accurately by either stans or h8ers
 
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Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Disagree a bit with the first paragraph but yeah, agree otherwise. They’ve all surpassed Sampras, don’t get me wrong, I just think Pete’s career doesn’t really get appraised accurately by either stans or h8ers
Feel that most of his hype comes from the 'back in my day we had different styles of tennis', which in turn also means that the competition in your own specialisation is slightly diminished when half the Tour plays a style that can't really win at that tournament.

I think a lot of it is a bit of an overreaction to the persistence of baseline tennis, and it makes some try too hard to argue that Sampras is up there with Nadal or Djokovic, when for Sampras comparisons to Borg or players like that are perhaps more interesting.
 

AceSalvo

Legend
In a thread obviously about Sampras v Federer, you interject with a completely irrelevant Fed v Djokodal argument, and I'm the one who is "not too bright"? Lol :-D

Are you laughing at yourself?

Because regardless of OP's fake claim that "people are moving goalposts for Federer", you are not too bright to understand that regardless of any era the goalpost for Federer will always be 20 > 18 > 16. Its up to Fed to move the goalpost where he wants it to be. :laughing::laughing:

OP himself is not too bright by saying people are moving the goalpost for Federer. Its the anti-Fed movement that is trying to dilute the goalpost set by Fed claiming weak 2004-2007 when 2015-2019 has a bunch of new babies cropping up on the ATP tour.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Feel that most of his hype comes from the 'back in my day we had different styles of tennis', which in turn also means that the competition in your own specialisation is slightly diminished when half the Tour plays a style that can't really win at that tournament.

I think a lot of it is a bit of an overreaction to the persistence of baseline tennis, and it makes some try too hard to argue that Sampras is up there with Nadal or Djokovic, when for Sampras comparisons to Borg or players like that are perhaps more interesting.


That’s true and often an overlooked flip-side. I do think there was genuinely more parity back then but the interesting thing with a guy like Sampras is that, for all the talk you hear about how impossibly difficult it was to dominate in the 90s, it was more the limitations of certain parts of his game rather than his style of play that prevented him from being more of a year-round threat. I understand that no player can be perfect, but the reason Sampras didn’t do better on clay and slow HC was in large part due to not being able to slide on the dirt, his thalassemia minor and his relatively weaker backhand.

Likewise, style alone didn’t prevent Agassi from being more formidable on faster courts (even if his style of play wasn’t inherently conducive to faster courts)...the lack of a big serve, decent-but-nothing-too-spectacular feel, and a very exposable first serve return (the second serve return was GOATworthy not the FSR) did it to him.

So I feel people aren’t really being honest when they intimate that the great players of that day did as well as they could given the polarity of the conditions, and no better than that.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Of course Federer faces weak competition. Remove just two players--Nadal and Djokovic--and the majority of the rest are among the worst male players in tennis history. The ATP-lovers' overrated "next generation" are members of the Can't Win A Major Legion (Thiem, Nishikori, Kyrgios, Isner, Dimitrov, Simon, Pospisil, Tomic, Querry, et al), There's one major left this year, and as of this date, the members of that Legion have consistently failed to do their job and break through to win majors. This is the "great" ATP competition Federer has faced. This "next generation" are simply aging losers collecting checks for showing up, and rolling over as they have been for their entire careers, yet the usual Federer-obsessed members attempt to cherry pick / spin the competition of Sampras, Laver and anyone else, all to keep that false, tin crown on Federer.
Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Agassi, Safin, Davydenko, Blake. All quality players.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Of course Federer faces weak competition. Remove just two players--Nadal and Djokovic--and the majority of the rest are among the worst male players in tennis history. The ATP-lovers' overrated "next generation" are members of the Can't Win A Major Legion (Thiem, Nishikori, Kyrgios, Isner, Dimitrov, Simon, Pospisil, Tomic, Querry, et al), There's one major left this year, and as of this date, the members of that Legion have consistently failed to do their job and break through to win majors. This is the "great" ATP competition Federer has faced. This "next generation" are simply aging losers collecting checks for showing up, and rolling over as they have been for their entire careers, yet the usual Federer-obsessed members attempt to cherry pick / spin the competition of Sampras, Laver and anyone else, all to keep that false, tin crown on Federer.


So, just remove two of the top handful of players in Open Era history and Federer’s competition gets much weaker? What a novel insight. Some might say that, by doing so, it’d resemble Pete’s competition in ‘97-‘98, two years where he finished number 1 in the world.

Well, good thing Djokovic and Nadal WERE around then, eh?
 

stingstang

Professional
Sports science has advanced incredibly fast since the Sampras/Agassi days. Completely different era we're in now. I don't see why Fed can't be competing for slams at 40.
 

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Agassi, Safin, Davydenko, Blake. All quality players.

Blake: Member of the original Can't Win A Major Legion, and in the end was never a great threat.
Nalbandian: Yet another member of the original Can't Win A Major Legion, and was one of the most overrated players of the past twenty years. The level of "greatness" attributed to him was utterly unjustified and largely based on two wins over Federer at majors.
Davydenko: Another member of the original Can't Win A Major Legion. who lost to Federer 19 times.

Hewitt: was already finished winning his last of two career majors a year before Federer won his first , and had diminished as a contender, making his 2005 Australian Open finals appearance more of Cinderella swan song than his being some constant contender/threat, but it provided Safin with what would be his last major after a drought that began after his 2000 US Open win.

Agassi: 8-3 H2h, and by the time Federer blossomed into a majors winner, Agassi was there in name only, with no greater example being the 2005 US Open final where Agassi (in his last majors final appearance) lost in 4 sets.

This is not the mark of a career vs great rivals.
 

vex

Legend
Recency bias will always win out and will eventually even marginalize the big three. People always have an inclination to believe that what they are seeing is the greatest ever.
Truth

That said, its pretty hard to argue the big 3 aren't pretty special.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
Edberg was almost completely finished after 1992. He was irrelevant in Sampras' era as was Lendl.

Becker won a slam in 1996 and made a few Wimbledon finals so he had more impact on that era but he isn't anywhere near as good as old Federer. 3 times the amount of slams, FFS.

Not true. Edberg went 16-4 in slams in 1993, losing in the AO final to peak Courier. Edberg's real decline began in 1994.
 
I thought this was going to be a thread about how Fed fanatics are starting to shift the goal-posts and say that playing style determines GOAT and not stats (conveniently as the records are on the verge of falling over the next year or two).
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
Well. A lot has been said. It will however not change my opinion that pre-Federer tennis was better. There was more variety and depth. He and 2 others basically spoiled the quality of tennis in my opinion. Back then, there was a "mini tour" for RG where someone like only Nadal runs the show for years now. Nadal has become the "Margeret Court" of the French Open. Just as people ran away of Margeret at the AO, so too have people skipped clay just because Nadal is playing. Federer himself did this. The competition pre-Fed just on clay, owns this era. But people forget so easily.

"If you find honey, eat just enough-- too much of it, and you will vomit."

It is time for new blood and long overdue. Is no one tired of watching 3 players beating up on schoolboys to greedily win yet more titles between them? Not their fault, but still. The big 3 is "soooo greatttt" but it's hard to miss how the weak field severely helped them to be "greater than they really are" in many young fanboys' eyes. Yes they are great, but the era is weak. The big 3 has many fans. But remove all those who did not even watch tennis pre-Fed and it becomes interesting.

There are probably 10 pre-Fed players who could have taken the 2nd or 3rd spot of the Big3 and be just as successul all due to the fact that the field has been so weak.
 
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