The Planned Poach [from the server's perspective]

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If you're serving and your partner has signaled a poach, when do you shift to cover line?

- Immediately

- When your partner moves to poach

It occurred to me that I could be giving away the play if I move to cover line before my partner moves to poach. Then again, can the returner really concentrate on 1) the ball; 2) his return; 3) the net man; and 4) the server? My guess is "no" so that frees me to move immediately.

On a reasonably fast 1st serve, the difference might not be easily detectable. I'm thinking more about a slower 2nd serve.

Opinions?

 

[OrangePower]

I move once the returner has hit the ball. Then I move to the ball. Fortuitously, this pretty much coincides with when I fully regain my balance after the serve.

 

[Adles]

When my partner calls for a planned poach, I almost always hit the serve up the T. Do others do this? My partners don't seem to.

 

[J_R_B]

When my partner calls for a planned poach, I almost always hit the serve up the T. Do others do this? My partners don't seem to.

Serving up the T is the percentage play, but I guess it depends on how good the serve is. If the server can hit a really good wide serve, it is very difficult to do anything with it but hit cross court right into the poacher. In general, my partner and I hit down the T on poaches and use the wide serves just as a change of pace.

 

[schmke]

Serving up the T is the percentage play, but I guess it depends on how good the serve is. If the server can hit a really good wide serve, it is very difficult to do anything with it but hit cross court right into the poacher. In general, my partner and I hit down the T on poaches and use the wide serves just as a change of pace.

Agree, and it somewhat depends on how the returner handles different serves. In the deuce court, some returners can more easily pull a T serve up the line with their backhand than go inside out cross court. And like J_R_B says, a good wide serve is more easily returned back where it came from cross court than to change direction and go up the line over the high part of the net. So I try to pay attention to the returner's tendencies and strengths and use poaching to try to take those away and make them hit their 2nd or 3rd best shot rather than letting them be comfortable and just hit their preferred shot.

 

[ZirkusAffe]

When my partner calls for a planned poach, I almost always hit the serve up the T. Do others do this? My partners don't seem to.

Yep I feel the safest is up the T but not exclusive, best way to get them to have to create a harder angle if they want to hit one or the other alley's which can be a harder shot.. out wide can work if they are pinching in to cover the T more. DTL is a hard shot but it becomes easier if the net person is in planned poach mode and has left already exposes a wide open alley, compared to squeezing it past them when they are not poaching usually means your hitting a lot tougher shot. but I think its situational and depends on both partner's abilities, effectiveness of server placement/speed/movement.

 

[Mr.Lob]

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

When my partner calls for a planned poach, I almost always hit the serve up the T. Do others do this? My partners don't seem to.

Usually [or into the body]. But I don't want to become too predictable so I'll throw in a wide slice occasionally, especially if I see the returner edging over towards the middle.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

Too often I try to go inside-in DTL and miss. I need to get better at just hitting low CC or maybe even slightly behind the poacher who is expecting he will have to stretch for the volley.

 

[Mr.Lob]

or maybe even slightly behind the poacher who is expecting he will have to stretch for the volley.

That's a tougher shot than going down the line, but I've used it successfully. A really aggressive poacher ... I like occasionally firing behind him at his left hip. You really just have to "go after" a really aggressive poacher, from time to time, to give them something to think about.

 

[Bionic slice]

Too often I try to go inside-in DTL and miss. I need to get better at just hitting low CC or maybe even slightly behind the poacher who is expecting he will have to stretch for the volley.

Down the line....or looping shot to deep cross court corner.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Too often I try to go inside-in DTL and miss. I need to get better at just hitting low CC or maybe even slightly behind the poacher who is expecting he will have to stretch for the volley.

What I'd like to do is this:

Check out Serena's return at 1:18.

 

[MathGeek]

Yeah, me too.

 

[J_R_B]

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

I play ad side. LOL.

 

[mntlblok]

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

About 50/50 with panicking and hitting it into the net behind him and lobbing to the ad side. But, after recently setting up the ball machine and practicing poaching with a buddy who was the "returner", I learnt that whenever he unintentionally hit a lob (or even just a high return) to the deuce court, that I was in no position to do anything with it (as I was moving diagonally forward) - and my "server" partner wouldn't have been, either.

While I'll often plan a cross court lob return against an Australian formation, it had never crossed my mind to lob cross court when I suspected a poach was on. This would *especially* be of value when the server is a lefty - a situation that has stumped me for years - and helped lead to some nasty beat-downs.

 

[M Pillai]

Either
1. challenge the poacher with a slice to his weaker volley side with sharp angle (more concentration for control and placement), if I am confident that I can move him to a corner and he wont be good enough to finish it in the first volley, and be ready to hit next shot to a more open and relaxed court.
2. Take that topspin lob and buy my team time.
3. If you really see that opening for an angle passing shot to either side, either because the poacher over committed or because he was too slow, I may go for that backhand topspin short angle winner.
4. high pace ground stroke to body, and be ready to take the next ground stroke at the middle.
5. Obviously if the serve was not good enough and provided me enough time to run around it and hit a good cross court forehand, I would take that. But most of the time the server should know what he is doing and I wont have that luxury.

Last thing I want to do is get hurried into a passing ground stroke, and there by making a huge placement mistake.

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

 

[ZirkusAffe]

Right hander returning serve in deuce court. Serve is down the "T" to returners backhand. Poacher is coming hard, roughly center net as you are setting for shot. Where and what shot do you most often hit?

not an easy shot for you returning if you have to stretch on your bh to return flicking against the grain back towards the alley is somewhat ideal although the server would be covering so I'd go right at the poacher (back hip or body) if at all possible hard and low.. slice can work too but you have to be careful if it floats and they are closing in tight to the net they can put it away.. hard low at least you might get the ball back to hit another.

 

[MisterP]

I like occasionally firing behind him at his left hip. You really just have to "go after" a really aggressive poacher, from time to time, to give them something to think about.

+1.

I have an ok 2HBH so this is what I like to do. It is lower percentage than a cross court ball but if you're dealing with a good net player you have to take your chances. I'll also throw in a chip lob a few times to let them know I'm not giving them any easy points.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

+1.

I have an ok 2HBH so this is what I like to do. It is lower percentage than a cross court ball but if you're dealing with a good net player you have to take your chances. I'll also throw in a chip lob a few times to let them know I'm not giving them any easy points.

Sounds like good strategy to me. The worst thing you could do is not alter anything [unless you have a great RoS and can just keep hitting CC even if the net man is poaching]. Variability means they can't get comfortable.

 

[MisterP]

Sounds like good strategy to me. The worst thing you could do is not alter anything [unless you have a great RoS and can just keep hitting CC even if the net man is poaching]. Variability means they can't get comfortable.

I've been that guy, for sure. In 6.5 Combo two years ago I played a match where a strong net player absolutely dominated my return game to the point that I just kind of gave up toward the end. I felt as though I couldn't get anything past him, but the truth was that I just kept giving him the same kind of ball over and over. That was a bad night, but a learning experience for me.

 

[Off The Wall]

not an easy shot for you returning if you have to stretch on your bh to return flicking against the grain back towards the alley is somewhat ideal although the server would be covering so I'd go right at the poacher (back hip or body) if at all possible hard and low.. slice can work too but you have to be careful if it floats and they are closing in tight to the net they can put it away.. hard low at least you might get the ball back to hit another.

Well, regarding the poacher "is coming hard," in this example, you see him poaching, so hit behind him or over him.

Otherwise, don't aim for poacher's hip. Because if you were that accurate, you would just put the ball into the server's alley. It's a bigger target and nobody is covering that.

You would hit behind the poacher. The first order of business is to get the return passed the net man. In the example of serve down the T and net man is poaching, the server has to recover from serving and, since they are usually serving closer to the singles side line than the center hash, he has a long way to go to cover. He probably won't have a good shot unless you've blooped a high one. Moreover, the return will be angling away from him. Make the server run and hit it.

A savvy doubles player will follow that return to the net.

 

[PMChambers]

You don't cover the line. Server nearly never cover the line.
Your serving you can only cover wide and the middle. The only exception is if your playing eye formation. You have really only one job and that's to serve big enough that they can't easily redirect the ball, so you should be playing down the tee. So they can't go behind the volleyer easily. Don't go out wide as you've just opened the entire side up and likely served to their best side.
The "All or Nothing Poach" is just that, all or nothing. Suicide poaching is really a gimmick in my view. Poaching should be determined by the serve and playing the odds. I quiet like my net player to move across when I go down the line, but on a 1st serve if it lands close its going to be unreturnable anyway. I'd prefer my partner to stay put on 2nd as it will have slice and kick so can be hard to hit but can also sit up to be spanked. I'd prefer the return to try to control the spin cross court than down the line.

Rather than poach try getting your partner to stand very central, much better position to volleying than moving poach.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Well, regarding the poacher "is coming hard," in this example, you see him poaching, so hit behind him or over him.

Otherwise, don't aim for poacher's hip. Because if you were that accurate, you would just put the ball into the server's alley. It's a bigger target and nobody is covering that.

There are some advantages of going for the hip [or, at least, in the general vicinity]:

- It doesn't require the returner to make a massive change in intended direction [I was going CC but now I'm going DTL].
- Lower part of the net
- Keeps you in the point: going DTL could likely either be a hero shot or an UE

Until recently, it never occurred to me that I had the option of going at the hip but, having seen the effects on me and my partner when we poach, I think it's a valid strategy.

You would hit behind the poacher. The first order of business is to get the return passed the net man. In the example of serve down the T and net man is poaching, the server has to recover from serving and, since they are usually serving closer to the singles side line than the center hash, he has a long way to go to cover. He probably won't have a good shot unless you've blooped a high one. Moreover, the return will be angling away from him. Make the server run and hit it.

It depends on where the server starts: I've seen some that start closer to the center hash and if so, he should be able to cover all but the best DTL shots. It does cut down on the wide angle available but most serves should be going down the T or into the body anyway.

Also, my problem with hitting behind the poacher is recognizing that the net man is poaching and making that change in intended direction. Sometimes, I'm not able to react quickly enough or I get faked out. Depending on how my returns are that day, I may feel more comfortable with hitting it low in the center and ignoring the net man [emphasis on "low"; I like keeping my doubles partners].

A savvy doubles player will follow that return to the net.

Agreed. But when you combine savvy with lazy you get…"sazy"? "Lavvy"? Anyways, it's not pretty.

 

[movdqa]

None of my partners signal poaches.

It's generally a surprise to me but I move to cover after I see them move.

Of course I've played with many people that poach and then stay in the middle of the net resulting in us being sitting ducks.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

None of my partners signal poaches.

Why don't they? They don't know how or why? Or complain that it complicates things and "just let me hit the ball"?

How about telling them that for one game, try to signal every time. No pressure, just get into the habit. Sooner or later, it will become 2nd nature.
[/QUOTE]

Of course I've played with many people that poach and then stay in the middle of the net resulting in us being sitting ducks.[/QUOTE]

I think that's called the "Unintentional I Formation".

 

[Dartagnan64]

I used to signal to my wife. Almost every time I did, she double faulted because she was worried about where she was supposed to cover. Decided that was a bad decision. Now I tell her that if she gets it down the middle I'm poaching. That way she's not thinking about it during her serve.

She also gets screwed up by I formations and the like as she doesn't know where she is supposed to go. I try to keep things simple: If you are the net man, follow the ball. If you are the back person, cover the opposite corner and get to the service line ASAP.

 

[Off The Wall]

There are some advantages of going for the hip [or, at least, in the general vicinity]:

- It doesn't require the returner to make a massive change in intended direction [I was going CC but now I'm going DTL].
- Lower part of the net
- Keeps you in the point: going DTL could likely either be a hero shot or an UE

Until recently, it never occurred to me that I had the option of going at the hip but, having seen the effects on me and my partner when we poach, I think it's a valid strategy.



It depends on where the server starts: I've seen some that start closer to the center hash and if so, he should be able to cover all but the best DTL shots. It does cut down on the wide angle available but most serves should be going down the T or into the body anyway.

Also, my problem with hitting behind the poacher is recognizing that the net man is poaching and making that change in intended direction. Sometimes, I'm not able to react quickly enough or I get faked out. Depending on how my returns are that day, I may feel more comfortable with hitting it low in the center and ignoring the net man [emphasis on "low"; I like keeping my doubles partners].
.

The only time you go at the net man is if he can't volley.

The way I see it, aiming for a hip as it is moving across in front of you is just not a good percentage move. The chances are excellent that you will lead him too much or too high.

Anywhere behind him is good. Don't worry about net height. A shot to the net man doesn't keep you in the point. It ends it 99% of the time. The server coming in can only get to first volley position. The net man is in put-away position.

Once you recognize a poach is on and you can't pull the trigger behind him, lob over him.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

The only time you go at the net man is if he can't volley.

The way I see it, aiming for a hip as it is moving across in front of you is just not a good percentage move. The chances are excellent that you will lead him too much or too high.

Anywhere behind him is good. Don't worry about net height. A shot to the net man doesn't keep you in the point. It ends it 99% of the time. The server coming in can only get to first volley position. The net man is in put-away position.

In my experience, when I try to make a radical, last-second change in intended direction, my chances of an error go way up.

Whether I go for the net man depends on how close to the net he is: if he moves diagonally forwards, it will be tough. If he moves laterally, I have a better chance.

Also, not every poacher is skilled at poaching a ball to him since he's anticipating something in front of him.

Once you recognize a poach is on and you can't pull the trigger behind him, lob over him.

If I can react quickly enough without flubbing the shot, agreed.

Also, assuming everyone is right-handed, this is easier to pull off from the Deuce court, as the server will be hitting a BH OH.

 

[Dakota C]

If you're serving and your partner has signaled a poach, when do you shift to cover line?

- Immediately

- When your partner moves to poach

It occurred to me that I could be giving away the play if I move to cover line before my partner moves to poach. Then again, can the returner really concentrate on 1) the ball; 2) his return; 3) the net man; and 4) the server? My guess is "no" so that frees me to move immediately.

On a reasonably fast 1st serve, the difference might not be easily detectable. I'm thinking more about a slower 2nd serve.

Opinions?

Realistically if you are committing to a poach, the net guy is responsible for the whole cross court. There is a big factor here though - the actual serve. If the opponent isn't able to make an aggressive return off of your serve, whether first or second, then you can wait until they hit the ball to move - still having the net guy moving just before contact. If the opponent has a strong return against the serve, you will probably have to move just before contact just like your net partner. Really depends on the quality of the return you are expecting.

 

[movdqa]

I haven't done signals with a doubles partner in 30 years and I can't recall what I did back then. The partners that I play with now fall into two categories. Those that poach and move over and I just slide in to cover where they left, and those that poach and stay in the middle of the court which means that I have to choose the spot with the most open space.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I also find signaling not so important. I'm not saying it is bad, but it is often not necessary in rec tennis. If your partner has a big serve, it is not necessary to signal - just go get the put away. If your partner has a weak serve, you should set up predetermined rules based on where the serve goes (like - if you serve T or body I'm poaching, if wide I'm staying). If you are playing mixed and you are the guy, poach every time and let the girl cover back every time.

 

[OrangePower]

I also find signaling not so important. I'm not saying it is bad, but it is often not necessary in rec tennis. If your partner has a big serve, it is not necessary to signal - just go get the put away. If your partner has a weak serve, you should set up predetermined rules based on where the serve goes (like - if you serve T or body I'm poaching, if wide I'm staying). If you are playing mixed and you are the guy, poach every time and let the girl cover back every time.

I think it depends on how much control the server has over his/her serve location.
If not good control, then signaling less important - net player decides ad-hoc based on serve quality and location.
But if good control, then signaling (both location and poach/stay) is very helpful.
Some serve locations are better suited for planned poaches than others.

 

[NTRPolice]

I move into the court as if im playing singles, so dead center. This momentarily creates an overlap in the middle, but my direction is towards the now open alley. With this said, if they crank a solid return DTL, it's probably a winner. Because you're starting from a doubles service position instead of a singles one, it's very hard to cover that extra alley. Also, if my partner is going to poach, I expect them to cover a good amount of net. I dont like "half poaches" on set plays. They signal they are going, they better go. I also try not to serve extremely out wide so they dont have an inside-out'ish swing DTL. If they hit DTL, you want them to be hitting an inside-in angle, which is much more difficult.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I also find signaling not so important. I'm not saying it is bad, but it is often not necessary in rec tennis. If your partner has a big serve, it is not necessary to signal - just go get the put away. If your partner has a weak serve, you should set up predetermined rules based on where the serve goes (like - if you serve T or body I'm poaching, if wide I'm staying). If you are playing mixed and you are the guy, poach every time and let the girl cover back every time.

I found it to be hugely important when I moved from 4.0 to 4.5. Because my server partner knows where I'm going, I no longer feel any worry about getting "burned" DTL since I know my partner is there to cover it. And if I can establish the poach, I've laid the groundwork for the fake poach, and I formation. If I can get into the returner's head, that's a big advantage. Yes, it doesn't bother all returners but it sure bothers some.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

I found it to be hugely important when I moved from 4.0 to 4.5. Because my server partner knows where I'm going, I no longer feel any worry about getting "burned" DTL since I know my partner is there to cover it. And if I can establish the poach, I've laid the groundwork for the fake poach, and I formation. If I can get into the returner's head, that's a big advantage. Yes, it doesn't bother all returners but it sure bothers some.

I agree there are advantages to signaling. But 4.5 is not routine rec tennis, as it represents the top 5% of rec players. The bell curve is 3.5 to 4.0, where I do not believe signaling is necessary (not that it isn't a good idea).

 

[NTRPolice]

I agree there are advantages to signaling. But 4.5 is not routine rec tennis, as it represents the top 5% of rec players. The bell curve is 3.5 to 4.0, where I do not believe signaling is necessary (not that it isn't a good idea).

4.5 is where players actually start having all the tools needed to execute a play. I mean, you could call plays in 3.0, but if they cant serve the ball in, or control the direction, calling a play doesnt really work. At 4.5 and higher, you could turn a 7-6 loss into a 7-5 win by calling plays and executing on them. A "free" point here and there adds up over time. Calling a play wont work every time, but it does give you an edge as it gets into the mind of the returner.

I also think it's easier to poach in the higher levels than in the lower ones. Because the ball is moving faster, you can leave earlier without much penalty. When the ball is moving slower, you cant leave early because changing the direction on a slow ball is easier.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I agree there are advantages to signaling. But 4.5 is not routine rec tennis, as it represents the top 5% of rec players. The bell curve is 3.5 to 4.0, where I do not believe signaling is necessary (not that it isn't a good idea).

I think we're on the same page; we just have different definitions for "rec": mine is "not getting paid to play" [ie vs "pro"].

Having said that, maybe at 3.5 there are other, even more important and fundamental things to cement before adding in the variable of signals. But I certainly don't think 3.5 is too low to start experimenting with it, especially if the person is fundamentally reasonably solid. If that person has a long-term goal of making it to 4.5/5.0, say, I think it's good to start earlier rather than later.

is it "necessary"? No. Will it add a lot of depth to your game [and make it more interesting]? A big "yes" [IMO].