Anyone want to try to classify the top 10 men and women into these categories?
1. the angry pusher who believes in conspiracies
2. the fanboy that really only cares about his gear
3. the tormented nut that hits against the wall for hours mumbling to him/herself
4. the college player who did not find a job yet but will spend some free time destroying you
5. the perma-injured, always with a ready excuse
I think those guys become #36. The people with better strokes that keep losing to inferior players.
1. the angry pusher &
5. the perma-injured, always with a ready excuse
6. The people with better strokes that keep losing to inferior players.
I thought there were six steps. You only listed three.There have been numerous threads addressing different playing styles. But they’ve pitted one style against another ... or deeply analyzed a particular style. Here, we’re going to define all the different styles of play in one location. (At least that’s my goal.)
1 - Define and categorize the styles of play.
2 - Identify some Pros who exemplify the styles in question.
3 - Be prepared to defend your opinion with some logic.
Let’s see if we can arrive at some level of agreement ... and keep the flaming to a minimum.
- KK
I think you can make a case for a sub-category of the heavy-topspin baseliner (like Bjorn Borg was). Simply because of the way it wins. It is agressive and breaks down the other guy's game because he can't get his shots to roll over for him. Result -- Out, long...a lot. Also, when that starts happening, the heavy topspin artist can attack the net very easily. So this style of aggressive basline play is different than other aggressive baseline play. Frankly, I wonder why we don't see it used anymore. Any thoughts on that?
Great post! And I agree 100%. Just a month ago, I totally changed my mentality for the game. Before that, I was always focusing on technique, results, striving to hit harder etc. Well, then I took a couple of videos in a row. Instead of analysing my hitting form (like I had previously done) on the vids, I analysed all the typical reasons why I missed a shot. I tried to get rid of those errors the next time I played, and it was surprisingly easy to do! I paid zero attention to form, zero attention to what opponent was doing. All focus was on avoiding the things that made me typically miss shots. And if I missed a shot, I tried to figure if I did the same error as on the video. Well, guess what: I'm on a 10 match winning streak, and some match videos actually prove that I outhit opponents also on winners compartment. Simply: I've become a much better player, just by changing my mentality and nothing else!“There are no pushers in the pro ranks. None. The Pusher tops out at the 4.0 level.”
Good players make a lot of balls.
...
Because of the tennis scoring system, games are long enough that consistency wins out. And the game is the unit of victory. It isn’t really like boxing, as some people say. Hitting the occasional knockout punch doesn’t lead to victory. Let’s say you can hit a hard forehand and get it in 50% of the time. What is the probability of making four in a row? 6.25 % .
Try this sometime, and see if your game improves: try to make every serve return. Make a mental note of the ones you miss, and why. I think this “tip” can improve the results of almost any player, more than worrying about how many bends are in your arm, whether you pat the dog, or whether you need to change your type of string…( the better the player, the less they change equipment. Pros rarely make a change. Why is this? You would think at their high level of competition, they would benefit from every slight advantage. But they stick with what they are used to, because their priority is consistency.)
And if you focus on making every shot, you can forget about bad line calls, the demeanour of your opponent, your own nerves, and all the other stuff that doesn’t matter. Players will hit winners by you, and it won’t bother you anymore. When you concentrate on making the balls you have a chance at, tennis becomes more enjoyable, and you start beating more opponents.
When Patrick Rafter won the US open in 1998, he made 5 unforced errors in the final. John Isner and Ivo Karlovic are in the top ten in first serve percentage. Are these players a type of pusher, since they lead in consistency?
Consistency wins at all levels. Maybe all successful players have a little pusher in them? There are soft pushers and hard pushers, and then there are players who get beat.
Then the person with better strokes is an inferior match player.6. The people with better strokes that keep losing to inferior players.
Indeed, consistency and avoiding (unforced) errors is 90% what this game and its point system is all about. .
You forgot this:1. the angry pusher who believes in conspiracies
2. the fanboy that really only cares about his gear
3. the tormented nut that hits against the wall for hours mumbling to him/herself
4. the college player who did not find a job yet but will spend some free time destroying you
5. the perma-injured, always with a ready excuse
Undoubtedly the all courter, since he has no preset style but prefers to change up his strategy depending on his opponent.what style do u think Federer is
tennis Pros use the style that wins points and when it does not they change there style on the fly,
Nice explanations on styles of play, however classifying pros as this style or that I disagree with, this classification fits unclassified players mostly, tennis Pros use the style that wins points and when it does not they change there style on the fly, there is also Moonballers-Chris Everett used this very successfully.
Cheers
3Fees
Hi, MightyrickPeople are probably going to disagree with me... but I speak as a former pusher.
I think counter-puncher is the highest step in the pusher evolutionary ladder. The evolutionary path is: Pusher => Junk-Baller => Counter-Puncher.
2.5 to 3.5) A pusher just gets the ball back. Zero weapons.
3.5 to 4.0) A junk-baller gets the ball back with varying spin and placement.
4.0+) A counter-puncher can get the ball back by hitting a strong forehand stroke.
To me, it is all pushing. It is a mindset. All three archetypes focus on trying to make the opponent take bad shots. All three feed on the frustration of their opponents. All three like their opponents to bring the game to them... as opposed to vice versa.
Right now, I'd classify myself as a junk-baller/spin doctor/chopper. I have a decent serve. I have great placement, varying depth, lots of crazy spins, mad defense. Once I get a big forehand topspin shot, I'll be a counter puncher.
6 - Pusher tennis players win by relying nearly exclusively on their opponent's unforced errors. They block, bunt or poke the ball with the goal of “just getting it back.” Pushers aim for just beyond the T in their opponent’s back court. This target gives them the largest margin for error.
They give you no power, no pace, no depth or placement. They just "get it back.” The strokes of the Pusher are never full and flowing. They have little ability to employ topspin. Any “passing shots” the Pusher hits are hardly intentional. (But they never act surprised when a shot of theirs becomes unreturnable.)
Pushers have unshakable psyches. Mind games and insults about their lack of “real” tennis ability have no effect on them. (They tell anyone in the Club about the times they beat the local High School “hero” in straight sets.) Pushers are completely aware that tennis competitors are not scored on “style”. They care only about the “W / L column.” Pushers are content with the fact that they will never be at the top of the 4.0 ladder; they know most Club payers don’t advance beyond 3.5 ... and since they are in the upper third of the 3.5 ladder, they are content.
Pushers are some of the friendliest and most outgoing members of the Club. They are always willing to help fill-in to complete your doubles court (which usually elicits groans from the other two players on your court).
There are no pushers in the pro ranks. None. The Pusher tops out at the 4.0 level.
Believe-it-or-not, I distinguish two types of Pushers....
6 a. - Soft-Ballers, as Pushers, have excellent court sense. They never seem to be out of position. Your efforts at blasting winners come floating back to land just beyond your service line. This Soft-Baller may be athletic from success in another sport, such as basketball, football or baseball. They may not have pretty strokes, but they know where to position themselves to give you the least likely angles of success. When you are begrudgingly shaking hands with them after they’ve embarrassed you again, you usually notice they are hardly even sweating ... which only “adds insult to injury.”
6 b. - Retrievers, as Pushers, move around the court like water bugs, getting to your best “winners” and floating them back again. Their foot speed is remarkable and they seem never to tire. Your frustration at not being able to hit winners against the Pusher Retriever only seems to refill their tank” for more.
They even have the temerity to smile throughout this match which is ripping your guts out. You try hitting even bigger winners -- or “wiping that smile off their face” with your display of power -- and they *love* this in you. They delight in watching your mind disintegrate as your very best shots just keep on coming back.
Back in the Clubhouse, they really “twist the knife” by offering to buy the beer with that SAME SICKENINGLY PLEASANT SMILE ON THEIR ROTTEN FACE!!! The Pusher Retriever makes you seriously think about taking up some other sport from which you will gain more fulfillment. Something like ... catching javelins for the Track Club. Sheesh!!!
- KK
Very interesting thread! Thanks KK and FiveO. This breakdown makes sense and is very understandable.
I always viewed Sampras as an all-court player, but he certainly had preferred styles and seldom found a need to depart from them. Whereas Federer is the model all-court player.
I think you can make a case for a sub-category of the heavy-topspin baseliner (like Bjorn Borg was). Simply because of the way it wins. It is agressive and breaks down the other guy's game because he can't get his shots to roll over for him. Result -- Out, long...a lot. Also, when that starts happening, the heavy topspin artist can attack the net very easily. So this style of aggressive basline play is different than other aggressive baseline play. Frankly, I wonder why we don't see it used anymore. Any thoughts on that?
Kathy K
www.operationdoubles.com
You are basically Murray... Now as long as you don't act like him I'm fine with you, but as soon as you start acting like that cracker I'm going to start hating.You rang? lol
Today I learned for sure that I am a counter-puncher. I'd never thought about this before, and lately I've had a creeping suspicion that that's what I am.
Some of the blaster stuff rings true, but I'm growing out of it. Fantastic read, this thread :thumbup:
Well obviously Murray doesn't push the ball. XD. I just don't like the guy. He needs to play more aggressive, I think the later part of 2016 he started doing that and that was good, but before then... Lets just say Murray wasn't the most "inspiring" tennis player.This thread needs a bump considering that there are threads and comments that state that pushing exists at the highest levels of the game. Just no.
Counterpunching could work for you.Hey everyone. I am new to this forum and this is my first post. I am from Gold Coast, Australia. I played tennis a lot as a junior until about 17. I then stopped tennis completely for at least 10 years. I came back to tennis casually last January and fell in love with it again. 12 months on and I am hitting 5-10 hours per week and playing Australian Money Tournaments (AMTs) for fun and fitness and to see how high I can get my australian ranking. One thing I struggle with is my playing style so this post was interesting for me. I feel I am confused when I play at the moment. The coaches at the centre where I train are constantly telling me I am a grinder because when we do drills I can sort of hit the ball in all day. However, I find in matches when I play to hit the ball in I am too defensive and if the rally goes for quite long (15 shots plus) I find I lose most of those rallies as my shots aren't deep enough or hit with enough force. So I find when I play with the mindset of hit the ball in it doesn't help my game at all.
When I play matches more aggressively I feel I play better. If I was to analyse my game I would say one of my big strengths is return of serve, especially coming forward and returning a hard first serve back just as hard. I have great hand eye coordination. Hitting the ball on the rise in rallies is a strength. In rallies I am comfortable going down the line often and can do it quite consistently with decent power. I hit the ball fairly flat with not a lot of top spin. My serve is not big as I am only 5 foot 10 or so. However, I do get my fair share of 1st serve free points and my 2nd serve is quite soft but has decent spin and I rarely double fault. My reflex volleys are pretty good however I don't have huge success approaching the net. I feel I play best when I am thinking attack and win points. My defence is not that strong. What playing style do you think I am best suited to? I feel if I know what style it will help me to play better when I have a clear picture in my mind of what I am trying to do.
Thanks and great to be part of the forum.
They changed the grass. Old grass slippery low and fast. New grass, more like clay. Purpose slow down the serve and create some rallies. Totally changed the grass court game. Want to play on old grass go to the Newport Casino club(Hall of Fame). Want to play new grass try to sneak on Brookline in MassYou will find it hard to find example of either classic serve/volley types in todays game and almost impossible to find chip/chargers in today's game.
Watch a Wimbledon match from pre 2000 and one post and watch the grass wear out on the baseline instead of the service "T".
I’ve put a lot of thought into this. Here’s my best shot at this -- garnered from over thirty years of playing, teaching and coaching tennis. Tell me what you think.
I describe the styles of play with Major Categories ... and Subcategories. Some of these groupings may surprise you, but please read through it before you fight me. Of course, I’m open to different views ... so long as you can support them.
<Edit> I am removing the examples of Pro Players from my descriptions. I agree with those who have suggested this creates confusion, rather than clarity. (Look at Roddick: When I made this guide he played quite differently than he has the last two years. He's just one example of a Pro NOT being a "pure" example of a style anymore....) </Edit>
My Major Categories of Playing Style are:
1 - Attack the Net
2 - Baseline
3 - Counter Punching
4 - Junk-Ball
5 - All Court
6 - Pusher
1 - Attack the Net should be pretty self-explanatory. This player constantly presses, probes and exploits the slightest weaknesses they uncover. They push forward and try to finish the large majority of their points with winning volleys. They relentlessly pressure you to try and come up with your best passing shots or lobs. They put you on “constant defense.”
What I expect might ruffle some feathers is how I consider S&V to be a subcategory of Attack the Net. The more I thought about it, the more I like this manner of codifying the styles. (I’ve observed many players who S&V ... on “offense”. But when Receiving, they are baseliners. Maybe they lack confidence in their Returns, so the attacker becomes a more patient Baseliner....)
1 a. - Serve & Volley
1 b. - Chip & Charger
1 a & b ^^^ “ought” to be self-explanatory. If they are not, let’s get more detailed.
2 - Baseline is the most prevalent broad category of choice for the last 15 years. Almost all the WTA players are in this category -- as are most of the ATP’s clay courters and even several ATP pros preferring hard courts. These players stalk the baseline and rarely *choose* to come to net.
2 a. - Blasters, as Baseliners, may have a big serve and a big forehand ... or just a reliable serve with big ground strokes. Blasters pound the ball into the corners ... down the line ... inside out. They jerk you from one side to the other putting you in the position of constantly being on the defensive. Any ball is fair game for them to “go for broke.” Most points against Blasters are over in less than ten shots; usually from the Blaster’s winner ... or unforced error.
2 b. - Machine Baseliners are the steadiest opponents you’ll ever meet. They may not have any single stroke which is their “big weapon,” but they relentlessly hit with pace ... running you from one side to the other ... sometimes even prolonging the points to wear you down in the end. They don’t seem to miss. They don’t seem to tire. They demoralize you with their stamina.
2 c. - Soft-Baller Baseliners are tireless players with excellent footwork and anticipation. They always seem to be where they need to be to cut down your angles of attack. You cannot get them to engage you in a power exchange. They seem to absorb all the power of your shots and redirect it with good deep placement, but they won’t give you any pace to work with. You must always supply your own power. This player exhausts you ... physically and mentally.
2 d. - Retriever Baseliners are quick and tireless. He believes he can get any ball back and becomes a “human backboard.” They rely on your misses, rather than any one “money shot” of their own. Their strength is that while retrieving, they keep you pinned to your own baseline. They have good depth and uniformly good pace on their strokes. They just don’t seem to work the corners or angles the way most baseliners do. If you are playing the baseline game yourself, you are in for a long day against the Retriever.
This style rarely exists beyond the club level. In my area, most of the top HS Girls -- and many JV Boys -- play this “war of attrition” style.
3 - Counter Punching players are always looking for the opportunity to *instantly* switch from safe defensive tennis ... to ripping winners. They can “change gears” with a single shot. Their passing shots are “thread the needle” accurate against those playing Attack the Net. Their drop-shots and lobs are deadly. Counter Punchers can detect and exploit the baseliners’ inadvertent openings ... and end the point with one “high risk” down-the-line winner ... or fool you with a short-angle inside-out forehand winner.
Opponents playing both Attack the Net and Baseline tennis are fooled into thinking “He can’t keep that up the whole match.” When do these opponents realize their error? Unfortunately, when -- befuddled -- they are shaking hands at the net and congratulating the Counter Puncher on a 6-3, 6-3 victory.
4 - Junk Ball players can drive the “purists” among us into the Nut House. These players never allow you to get into a rhythm. They vary the height, depth, angles and quantity of spin so much your “strokes” fall apart ... right after your brain explodes. Junk Ballers seem never to be out of breath and play high-percentage tennis when it comes to “court position.” When you do manage to get them on the run, you learn they are also very quick on their feet.
4 a. - Spin Doctor players are the highest developed of the Junk Ballers. They stroke the ball with pace (when they wish) but also with crazy slices, side spins, topspins and some spins we don’t yet have names for. Spin Doctors keep you off-balance, wrong footed and clumsily compensating for their shots by altering your own strokes. They are serious threats to both players who Attack the Net and Baseliners.
Most players would rather have a root canal than play these guys. Their tennis seems as much “psychological warfare” as it is “real tennis” competition. While Spin Doctors’ opponents frequently “lose their cool” during matches, the Doctors themselves tend to be some of the most unflappable players you will encounter.
4 b. - Chop Shot-er Junk Ballers are found all over the Recreational and Club levels of tennis. These players have mastered the Chop Slice shot so well, they rarely bother hitting a flat or topspin shot. Chop Shot-ers can put their chopped slice deep, short, angled and lobbed. They are very good at “working the wind” with their chops and can run the 4.0 and below opponent into the ground with their accurate shooting.
Chop Shot-ers play very good “position” and rarely have to run for your silly attempts to blast them off the court. When you do succeed in running them, you sadly discover they are some of the quickest players afoot. They love it when you try to overpower them ... because they are masters at redirecting your power with their junk.
(A friend near the bottom of our ladder is 74 ... and proudly informs the 20- and 30-somethings on the ladder (after badly beating them) that the rest of us call him “Mr. Chop Shot.”)
5 - All Court players are able to adapt their games to give them the best advantage ... against any opponent’s style ... in any weather condition ... however and whenever needed. They can Soft-Ball the Baseline Blaster. They can Attack the Net against the Junk Baller. They find what works best against the Counter Puncher that day and dismantle *that* game. The All Courter can blow some Baseline Machines off the court with an Attack the Net style. They can exhaust the Serve & Volleyer with Counter Punching.
At the highest levels, the All Courter may choose to play directly into his opponent’s strength. (Bill Tilden was notorious for this tactic. When asked why he attacked the other guys’ strengths, his answer was, “That way, once I’ve broken him down, all he has to fall back on ... are his weaknesses.”)
All Courters tend to be able to change strategies and tactics “on a dime.” They may, within a set -- even within a point -- switch from one pattern to another. They can keep you off-balance ... and unhappy.
<See next post>
- KK
There have been numerous threads addressing different playing styles. But they’ve pitted one style against another ... or deeply analyzed a particular style. Here, we’re going to define all the different styles of play in one location. (At least that’s my goal.)
1 - Define and categorize the styles of play.
2 - Identify some Pros who exemplify the styles in question.
3 - Be prepared to defend your opinion with some logic.
Let’s see if we can arrive at some level of agreement ... and keep the flaming to a minimum.
- KK
I think string technology and training regimens have been the two biggest factors impacting players expanding their arsenals. I've always thought even the average club player had at least two styles of play. Lately I'm seeing players at my club who "suddenly" have three styles of play they can employ. (Which nearly makes them All Courters, IMO.)Lately I've been attending some coaches conference and there's been a lot of talk of how the game styles have evolved with the changes in surfaces and in particular the polyester string technology and athlete development and what seems to be emerging now is a mix of styles based on the the players individual mental capacity and personality style.
I've been gone for a few years(!). Interesting to see this discussion kept going. Thanks for all your comments.
I think string technology and training regimens have been the two biggest factors impacting players expanding their arsenals. I've always thought even the average club player had at least two styles of play. Lately I'm seeing players at my club who "suddenly" have three styles of play they can employ. (Which nearly makes them All Courters, IMO.)
I'll keep watching if y'all keep posting....
There have been numerous threads addressing different playing styles. But they’ve pitted one style against another ... or deeply analyzed a particular style. Here, we’re going to define all the different styles of play in one location. (At least that’s my goal.)
1 - Define and categorize the styles of play.
2 - Identify some Pros who exemplify the styles in question.
3 - Be prepared to defend your opinion with some logic.
Let’s see if we can arrive at some level of agreement ... and keep the flaming to a minimum.
- KK
Why do people who have no knowledge of tennis make videos?Years later, turned into a video from TW.