I think the difference between Evonne and Court is the difference between a fine clay court player, and a great one. Evonne had the strokes and tactics . So did Court. Court had the mental discipline to consistently apply them match after match and throughout the match. Evonne did not!
Top 10 women players of all time per surface
- Thread starter anointedone
- Start date
thalivest
Banned
Yeah a big part of clay is concentration and consistency. Court had it all over Goolagong in both areas.
I have a US Open final of Evert's/Goolagong on DVD. Evonne could rally with anyone. Seh clearly knew what she was doing and had confidence in her ground game. She did not make those foolish forrays to the net so symtamatic of others scared to stay back. She used her slice forehand a lot, almost as much as her topspin and was steady enough to beat Evert in the first set. She had fine court sense and good control off both wings. But inevitably she could not sustain the concentration to the end of the match and once Evert got in front, she began hitting harder and deeper. End of story.
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Fay
Professional
I found this article and personally I agree with it, altho I might put Margaret Smith Court quite a bit higher on the list.
1.) Martina Navratalova
2.) Steffi Graf
3.) Chris Evert
4.) Billie Jean King
5.) Margaret Smith Court
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/39642/the_five_best_female_tennis_players.html?cat=14
The Five Best Female Tennis Players of All-time
June 26, 2006 by Eric Williams
For me, picking the number one female tennis player of all-time was a gut-wrenching decision that left me totally exhausted by the time I was through poring over data while incorporating my own observations as well. The choice was made more difficult that normal because it involved my favorite tennis player of all-time, German legend, Steffi Graf as well as the incomparable, Martina Navratilova.
Ultimately, I chose Navratilova, but in reality, this decision was as tough as any I’ve ever had to make regarding two athletes on one of my “greatest of all-time” columns. Without further delay, here are the top five female tennis players of all-time.
Martina Navratilova
I chose Navratilova ultimately because I think the era she played in consisted of better players – and certainly several more who were near her caliber than Graf faced in her career.
Navratilova won 18 Grand Slam singles titles and 40 Grand Slam doubles titles (31 women's doubles and 9 mixed doubles). She also won the women's singles title at Wimbledon a record 9 times.
Incredibly, Navratilova, who was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 2000, is still playing competitive teniis – albeit occassionally.
In 2003, she won the mixed doubles titles at both the Australian Open and Wimbledon to make her the oldest ever Grand Slam champion ever(aged 46 years, 8 months). Navratilova also won a singles match at the first round of Wimbledon in 2004, aged 47 years and 8 months, to make her the oldest player to win a professional singles match in the Open Era. Her most recent title came on May 27, at the Internationaux de Strasbourg in Strasbourg, France, where she won the women's doubles event partnering with Liezel Huber.
Simply put, there has never been a player that has come close to Navratilova’s longevity and world class level of play. There have been a multitude of memorable female tennis players who have certainly left their mark on the sport forever, but none, more so than Martina Navratilova – the greatest female tennis player of all-time.
Steffi Graf
Graf, my favorite female tennis player ever, is undoubtedly one of the greatest female tennis players ever – if not the best. Graf won an amazing 22 Grand Slam singles titles and in 1988, became the only player to achieve the "Golden Slam" – capturing all four Grand Slam singles titles and the Olympic gold medal in the same year.
Graf was the No. 1 player for a record 377 weeks (the longest of any player, male or female, since rankings began) and is the only player, male or female, to have won all four Grand Slam singles tournaments (Wimbledon, the US Open, the French Open and the Australian Open) at least four times each.
Graf's powerful forehand, which is arguably the greatest the women’s game has ever seen, earned her the nickname "Fraulein Forehand."
During her career, Graf won 107 singles titles and 11 doubles titles. Her 22 Grand Slam singles titles are second only to Margaret Court, who won 24.
Graf won 7 singles titles at Wimbledon, 6 singles titles at the French Open, 5 singles titles at the US Open, and 4 singles titles at the Australian Open. Her overall record in 56 Grand Slam events was 282-34 (89 percent) and she was ranked No. 1 for 377 weeks, including a record 186 consecutive weeks (from August 1987-March 1991) – longer than any other player – male or female.
No matter where I have Graf ranked, she is undoubetdly one of the greatest female tennis players of all-time.
Chris Evert
During her illustrious career, Evert won 18 Grand Slam singles titles, including a record seven at the French Open. Evert also won three Grand Slam doubles titles and sports a career win-loss record in singles matches of 1,309-146 (.900) - the best of any professional player in tennis history, male or female.
Evert was the ultimate baseline player and unlike Navratilova and Graf, never truly developed a serve-and-volley game, which, in reality, makes her immense accomplishments even more remarkable.
The thing I truly appreciated about Evert was how she was able to adapt her baseline style to succeed on all surfaces. She is also credited with being the innovator of the “two-handed backhand,” a shot that would inspire generations of young players, both male and female, to copy her powerful shot. Evert also had the best return-of-service game of any female I’ve ever seen.
When she retired from the professional tour in 1989, she had won 157 singles titles and eight doubles titles in her career. Amazingly, she reached the semifinals in 273 of the 303 tournaments she entered and won at least one Grand Slam singles title each year for 13 consecutive years from 1974 through 1986. She won 18 Grand Slam singles titles during her career: 7 at the French Open, 6 at the US Open, 3 at Wimbledon, and 2 at the Australian Open.
I firmly believe that Evert is the third best player of all-time – and certainly one of the finest female tennis players of all-time.
Billie Jean King
Who can ever forget Billie Jean King? No one – that’s who. King is undeniably the most important women’s tennis players of all-time and possibly the most important figure in the evolution of women’s sports – period.
I could get into many of her off-court accomplishments like the fact that King was instrumental in establishing the women's tennis tour in the 1970s, and worked tirelessly to promote it. Or the fact that she became the first president of the women's players union – the Women's Tennis Association – in 1973.
However, since this columns is dedicated to selecting the five best female tennis players of all-time based on their on-court careers, that is what I wil focus on with King as well.
King won 12 Grand Slam singles titles, 14 Grand Slam women's doubles titles, and 11 Grand Slam mixed doubles titles. In 1966, King won the first of her six singles titles at Wimbledon. She followed that up in 1967 by winning the singles titles at both Wimbledon and the US Championships and by that point, had developed a reputation as an aggressive, hard-hitting net-rusher, with excellent speed and a highly competitive personality.
King was ranked first in the world five times (1966 – 68, ’72 and 1974) and won 6 Grand Slam singles titles at Wimbledon, 4 at the US Championships/Open, 1 each at the French Open and Australian Championships. Amazingly, King won the last 7 Grand Slam singles finals in which she played.
In 1972, King became the first tennis player to be named Sports Illustrated Sportsman of The Year. King was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 1987. In 1990, Life magazine named her one of the "100 Most Important Americans of the 20th Century."
Love her or loathe her, Billy Jean King in undeniably one of the greatest female tennis players of all-time.
Margaret Smith Court
Between 1960 and 1975, Court won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles the same calendar year.
Court is one of only three players to have achived a career "boxed set" of Grand Slam titles, i.e. winning every possible Grand Slam title – singles, same-sex doubles and mixed doubles – at all four of the Grand Slam events. The others are Doris Hart and Martina Navrátilová.
In 1979, Court was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. Her incredible won-lost record in Grand Slam singles tournaments was 210-23 (.901). Court was ranked No. 1 in the world seven times (1962 through 1965, 1969, 1970 and 1973) and remains to this very day, one of the best female tennis players of all-time.
1.) Martina Navratalova
2.) Steffi Graf
3.) Chris Evert
4.) Billie Jean King
5.) Margaret Smith Court
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/39642/the_five_best_female_tennis_players.html?cat=14
The Five Best Female Tennis Players of All-time
June 26, 2006 by Eric Williams
For me, picking the number one female tennis player of all-time was a gut-wrenching decision that left me totally exhausted by the time I was through poring over data while incorporating my own observations as well. The choice was made more difficult that normal because it involved my favorite tennis player of all-time, German legend, Steffi Graf as well as the incomparable, Martina Navratilova.
Ultimately, I chose Navratilova, but in reality, this decision was as tough as any I’ve ever had to make regarding two athletes on one of my “greatest of all-time” columns. Without further delay, here are the top five female tennis players of all-time.
Martina Navratilova
I chose Navratilova ultimately because I think the era she played in consisted of better players – and certainly several more who were near her caliber than Graf faced in her career.
Navratilova won 18 Grand Slam singles titles and 40 Grand Slam doubles titles (31 women's doubles and 9 mixed doubles). She also won the women's singles title at Wimbledon a record 9 times.
Incredibly, Navratilova, who was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 2000, is still playing competitive teniis – albeit occassionally.
In 2003, she won the mixed doubles titles at both the Australian Open and Wimbledon to make her the oldest ever Grand Slam champion ever(aged 46 years, 8 months). Navratilova also won a singles match at the first round of Wimbledon in 2004, aged 47 years and 8 months, to make her the oldest player to win a professional singles match in the Open Era. Her most recent title came on May 27, at the Internationaux de Strasbourg in Strasbourg, France, where she won the women's doubles event partnering with Liezel Huber.
Simply put, there has never been a player that has come close to Navratilova’s longevity and world class level of play. There have been a multitude of memorable female tennis players who have certainly left their mark on the sport forever, but none, more so than Martina Navratilova – the greatest female tennis player of all-time.
Steffi Graf
Graf, my favorite female tennis player ever, is undoubtedly one of the greatest female tennis players ever – if not the best. Graf won an amazing 22 Grand Slam singles titles and in 1988, became the only player to achieve the "Golden Slam" – capturing all four Grand Slam singles titles and the Olympic gold medal in the same year.
Graf was the No. 1 player for a record 377 weeks (the longest of any player, male or female, since rankings began) and is the only player, male or female, to have won all four Grand Slam singles tournaments (Wimbledon, the US Open, the French Open and the Australian Open) at least four times each.
Graf's powerful forehand, which is arguably the greatest the women’s game has ever seen, earned her the nickname "Fraulein Forehand."
During her career, Graf won 107 singles titles and 11 doubles titles. Her 22 Grand Slam singles titles are second only to Margaret Court, who won 24.
Graf won 7 singles titles at Wimbledon, 6 singles titles at the French Open, 5 singles titles at the US Open, and 4 singles titles at the Australian Open. Her overall record in 56 Grand Slam events was 282-34 (89 percent) and she was ranked No. 1 for 377 weeks, including a record 186 consecutive weeks (from August 1987-March 1991) – longer than any other player – male or female.
No matter where I have Graf ranked, she is undoubetdly one of the greatest female tennis players of all-time.
Chris Evert
During her illustrious career, Evert won 18 Grand Slam singles titles, including a record seven at the French Open. Evert also won three Grand Slam doubles titles and sports a career win-loss record in singles matches of 1,309-146 (.900) - the best of any professional player in tennis history, male or female.
Evert was the ultimate baseline player and unlike Navratilova and Graf, never truly developed a serve-and-volley game, which, in reality, makes her immense accomplishments even more remarkable.
The thing I truly appreciated about Evert was how she was able to adapt her baseline style to succeed on all surfaces. She is also credited with being the innovator of the “two-handed backhand,” a shot that would inspire generations of young players, both male and female, to copy her powerful shot. Evert also had the best return-of-service game of any female I’ve ever seen.
When she retired from the professional tour in 1989, she had won 157 singles titles and eight doubles titles in her career. Amazingly, she reached the semifinals in 273 of the 303 tournaments she entered and won at least one Grand Slam singles title each year for 13 consecutive years from 1974 through 1986. She won 18 Grand Slam singles titles during her career: 7 at the French Open, 6 at the US Open, 3 at Wimbledon, and 2 at the Australian Open.
I firmly believe that Evert is the third best player of all-time – and certainly one of the finest female tennis players of all-time.
Billie Jean King
Who can ever forget Billie Jean King? No one – that’s who. King is undeniably the most important women’s tennis players of all-time and possibly the most important figure in the evolution of women’s sports – period.
I could get into many of her off-court accomplishments like the fact that King was instrumental in establishing the women's tennis tour in the 1970s, and worked tirelessly to promote it. Or the fact that she became the first president of the women's players union – the Women's Tennis Association – in 1973.
However, since this columns is dedicated to selecting the five best female tennis players of all-time based on their on-court careers, that is what I wil focus on with King as well.
King won 12 Grand Slam singles titles, 14 Grand Slam women's doubles titles, and 11 Grand Slam mixed doubles titles. In 1966, King won the first of her six singles titles at Wimbledon. She followed that up in 1967 by winning the singles titles at both Wimbledon and the US Championships and by that point, had developed a reputation as an aggressive, hard-hitting net-rusher, with excellent speed and a highly competitive personality.
King was ranked first in the world five times (1966 – 68, ’72 and 1974) and won 6 Grand Slam singles titles at Wimbledon, 4 at the US Championships/Open, 1 each at the French Open and Australian Championships. Amazingly, King won the last 7 Grand Slam singles finals in which she played.
In 1972, King became the first tennis player to be named Sports Illustrated Sportsman of The Year. King was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 1987. In 1990, Life magazine named her one of the "100 Most Important Americans of the 20th Century."
Love her or loathe her, Billy Jean King in undeniably one of the greatest female tennis players of all-time.
Margaret Smith Court
Between 1960 and 1975, Court won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles the same calendar year.
Court is one of only three players to have achived a career "boxed set" of Grand Slam titles, i.e. winning every possible Grand Slam title – singles, same-sex doubles and mixed doubles – at all four of the Grand Slam events. The others are Doris Hart and Martina Navrátilová.
In 1979, Court was inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. Her incredible won-lost record in Grand Slam singles tournaments was 210-23 (.901). Court was ranked No. 1 in the world seven times (1962 through 1965, 1969, 1970 and 1973) and remains to this very day, one of the best female tennis players of all-time.
Anyone who puts King over Court Doesn't know what they are doing. King was one of the best Wimbledon/ us championship performers . Tennis is played on other venues and surfaces on which she has too little to show. Margaret has more Australians, more US championships and more French championships.
julesb
Banned
Putting King over Court is a bit of a joke. Even had all the women played Australia then Court would have many more majors (she had 2 more at the other 3 combined, and there is no doubt she would have outdone King overall on her home turf) and the head to head is lopsided in her favor as well. King has no meaningful records other than her combined Wimbledon record counting all events, shared with Martina.
Maybe, but you are forgetting that Evert also won the US Open all three years it was held on clay, and had a ridiculous winning percentage on the surface, 125 in a row and 197-1 over a 9 year period.
Evert has 10 Slams on clay, and a record 7 at the French. If the French had slim pickings, the US certainly did not. Also, Evert skipped three French Opens in the 70s to play World Team Tennis. Imagine if she had played those also?
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Clay
1. Evert (no brainer)
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Wills
5. Seles
6. Lenglen
7. Henin
8. Navratilova (only won 2 French opens...but look who she had as her rival in Evert)
9. Vicario
10. Connolly
Grass
1. Navratilova ( again...no Brainer)
2. Graf
3. King ( 5 Wimbledon Singles titles and tied with Nav for most Overall Wimbledon titles, even made the Semi's there in the 1983 when she was extremely past her prime)
4. Wills
5. Evert
6. Court
7. Lenglen
8. Goolagong
9. Venus Williams
10. Chambers
Hard
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Evert
5. Serena Williams
6. Davenport
7/8. Henin
7/8. Hingis
9. Tracy Austin
10. Venus Williams
1. Evert (no brainer)
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Wills
5. Seles
6. Lenglen
7. Henin
8. Navratilova (only won 2 French opens...but look who she had as her rival in Evert)
9. Vicario
10. Connolly
Grass
1. Navratilova ( again...no Brainer)
2. Graf
3. King ( 5 Wimbledon Singles titles and tied with Nav for most Overall Wimbledon titles, even made the Semi's there in the 1983 when she was extremely past her prime)
4. Wills
5. Evert
6. Court
7. Lenglen
8. Goolagong
9. Venus Williams
10. Chambers
Hard
1. Navratilova
2. Graf
3. Seles
4. Evert
5. Serena Williams
6. Davenport
7/8. Henin
7/8. Hingis
9. Tracy Austin
10. Venus Williams
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lambielspins
Banned
Venus Williams below Goolagong on grass?! Navratilova over Graf and Seles on hard courts? Interesting.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
I put Goolagong higher because of who her competition was at Wimbledon and who she beat for her 2 Wimbledon titles (Court in 71 in Straights and Evert in '80 in straights when no one thought she had even the slightest prayer of doing so). Plus she lost 2 finals to King ( a Wimbledon demolisher), and one to Evert (who is sort of underestimated on Grass). I guess when I looked at them I rated Goolagongs main Competition (Court, King, Evert) above Venus's opposition (Davenport, her sister, Bartoli). Venus has more titles, but to me, Goolagongs wins and competition was slightly higher, just an opinion of course which I would understand if you disagree with.
As for Hardcourts, that was tough because there is a lot less to go on and narrowed field to choose from. I guess I gave Navratilova some credit for the '89 and '91 US Open finals when the next generation was really coming into prominence and she fighting to stay with them. But really, the top 3 are pretty close on my hard court list and any one of them could be argued as number 1.
lambielspins
Banned
I agree Goolagong had tougher competition on grass than Venus however you are comparing someone who won only 2 titles- a whopping 9 years apart (although that could be interpreted as bad good and bad) vs a player with 5 titles. Their achievements at the biggest grass court event are just so far apart that I could never rate Goolagong over Venus on grass, even with her tougher competition. Also since Venus always brings her A-game in the second week of Wimbledon I honestly see her winning alot more than 2 titles at Wimbledon even if she played when Goolagong did. A peak Navratilova could stop Venus on grass, but I think Evert, King, even chronic Wimbledon underperformer Court would have a very hard time beating her on grass with her serving ability, power, athletic ability, and reach, even with a wood racquet. Peak Serena who denied her the 2002-2003 titles is probably a tougher opponent for her to face than well certainly Evert and Goolagong would have been.
As for Navratilova, ok I see what you are saying.
It's just my opinion that I would rank Goolagong over Court on clay. But I understand why some would rank Court higher.
It's not possible to say whether a "younger' Court would have beaten Goolagong 2/3 times on clay. I still say as a whole Goolagong was the better clay court player, albeit slightly. I still say Chris would rather have played Margaret on clay than Chris. (Evert has as much admitted she choked her ;73 French final - her first ever major final - to Margaret).
Evert did play Evonne often on clay. But Chris never relished the thought of playing Evonne. In their 75 US Open final on clay, Goolagong pushed her tremendously, and was a tough match for Chris. The following year Chris won handily when Evonne was pregnant. But a slate as 1982, when Evonne was returning after her 2nd child, and Evert was the dominant #1, Evonne pushed Chris to 6-4 in the 3rd set of their match at the Citizens Cup.
I disagree about many points. In 1972, Billie Jean King was #1, so a loss by Goolagong in the French finals is nothing to be ashamed of. In 1970, Evert was a 15 year old amateur who had played a handful of matches as a pro. And Margaret Court, dominant world #1 and holder of the Grand Slam, lost.
Evert beat Court 9 out of 13 times in their career. Only two were clay matches. Evert was beating Margaret the majority of times they played (losing 2x in 1973, and 2x times in 1972. Evert and Court were supposed to play in the finals of a tournament in Columbus OH on clay in 1973, but Margaret defaulted.)
I still say Evonne was a more troublesome clay court foe for Evert than Court. The record does show that. And I do wish someone would ask Chris who was the tougher clay foe. Until Tracy Austin beat Chris, ending her 125 match win streak, Evonne was the only one Chris knew who could threaten her on that surface.
thalivest
Banned
Losing a French Open final to Billie Jean King 6-3, 6-3 is pretty bad for any supposed top notch clay courter. I could never imagine King even in her best year beating Court that easily in a French Open final. King is a great player of course, but she is NOT a premiere clay courter by any stretch of the imagination. She in fact struggled quite alot on the surface as her ground game simply wasnt strong enough for clay. Evert at only 17 was already destroying King by lopsided scores everytime they played on clay pretty much.
Evert beat Goolagong the vast majority of the times they played in their careers too as the 26-12 head to head shows. Evert is one of the greatest players of all time, arguably the greatest. So little surprise she has great records even vs many of the other great players.
The record does NOT show that. It is 1-1 vs 14-2. Those are the facts. Conjecture is another thing altogether, and here we may have differing viewpoints but in no way does any "record" show this.
Fine you keep thinking that. I would agree on Tracy at the very least. Tracy is a far scarier opponent for prime Chris on clay than either Court or Goolagong. Of course later on prime Navratilova as well.
grafselesfan
Banned
Hard courts (only counting among those with ample opportunity to play on them):
1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Monica Seles
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Lindsay Davenport
8. Maria Sharapova
9. Venus Williams
10. Tracy Austin
Clay:
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Chris Evert
5. Justine Henin
6. Margaret Court
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Gaibriela Sabatini or Nancy Richey
Grass:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Venus Williams
4. Helen Wills Moody
5. Suzanne Lenglen
6. Billie Jean King
7. Margaret Court
8. Maureen Connoly
9. Serena Williams
10. Evonne Goolagong
1. Serena Williams
2. Steffi Graf
3. Monica Seles
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Lindsay Davenport
8. Maria Sharapova
9. Venus Williams
10. Tracy Austin
Clay:
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Chris Evert
5. Justine Henin
6. Margaret Court
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Helen Wills Moody
10. Gaibriela Sabatini or Nancy Richey
Grass:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Venus Williams
4. Helen Wills Moody
5. Suzanne Lenglen
6. Billie Jean King
7. Margaret Court
8. Maureen Connoly
9. Serena Williams
10. Evonne Goolagong
hewittboy
Banned
Grass:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Venus Williams
7. Billie Jean King
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Clay:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Monica Seles
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Justine Henin
7. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
8. Maureen Connoly
9. Martina Navratilova
10. Gabriela Sabatini
Hard courts:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Monica Seles
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Tracy Austin
8. Lindsay Davenport
9. Martina Hingis
10. Maria Sharapova
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Venus Williams
7. Billie Jean King
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Clay:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Monica Seles
3. Suzanne Lenglen
4. Chris Evert
5. Margaret Court
6. Justine Henin
7. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
8. Maureen Connoly
9. Martina Navratilova
10. Gabriela Sabatini
Hard courts:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Serena Williams
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Monica Seles
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Tracy Austin
8. Lindsay Davenport
9. Martina Hingis
10. Maria Sharapova
the last two posters need a refresher course on Evert on grass. While it was not as heavy with the trophy lugging, ( 5 slams won) it was far more consistent than most of the grass courters you mention. Out of the 27 slam events she entered held on a grass court, she reached the semis 26 times! She entered 4 US opens on grass. She was a semifinalist each time. She entered 18 Wimbledons. She reached the semis 17 times. She entered 5 Australians on grass, she reached the final of every single one. Take a look at Court, King, Goolagong and even Navratilova and see out often they lost in a 3rd round or quarterfinal throughout their career. by the way, she had significant wins over them all on her way, albeit not when they were at their grass court primes. She always seemd to be the seond best grass courter to someone else throughout her career. Nevertheless she deserves atop ten place on those lists.
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Yes. They also need a refresher on clay. How anyone could put Evert behind Seles and Graf on clay when she holds a record 7 French Open titles and 3 US Opens on clay, and has a 125 match win streak, is beyond me. Of course, they also put Martina behind Steffi on grass, which again makes no sense.
hewittboy
Banned
Evert's 125 match win streak was over the most pitiful field of clay courters in history by far. It even made the awful field of clay courters that Henin was dominating look like a god group. No doubt Graf, Seles, Lenglen, maybe even Court would have gone on a 100+ win streak on clay vs that same group of women too, maybe even longer. Goolagong was the only kind of good clay courter. The rest: grass courter Virginia Wade, mid 30s Nancy Richey, mid 30s King on bad knees who was never that good on clay anyway, Virginia Ruzici, Mima Jausovec. Sorry that has to be some of joke. No wonder any all time great on clay went on a 125 match win streak vs that field. Once some real opponent emerged- a barely 16 year old Tracy Austin, Evert began losing matches on clay again.
Even at the French Open her competition was terrible. Other than Navratilova 3 times, and Navratilova isnt an all time great on clay. I dont care if Evert has the most French Opens, Graf and Seles in their primes vs Evert on her prime on clay would win 7 times out of 10 atleast, maybe more.
Evert was losing almost all her matches to a prime Goolagong in grass so it is hard to believe she was really better than ever her on grass, yet Goolagong barely would be top 10 all time on the surface. Goolagong also won 6 slams on grass to Evert's 5 at a time there were equal opportunity to play multiple slam events on grass. Court underperformed at Wimbledon, still winning the same # of Wimbleons as Evert mind you, but her U.S Open and Australian Open (even with the depleted field which still wasnt as bad as the clay court field Evert faced) speak for themselves.
Even at the French Open her competition was terrible. Other than Navratilova 3 times, and Navratilova isnt an all time great on clay. I dont care if Evert has the most French Opens, Graf and Seles in their primes vs Evert on her prime on clay would win 7 times out of 10 atleast, maybe more.
Evert was losing almost all her matches to a prime Goolagong in grass so it is hard to believe she was really better than ever her on grass, yet Goolagong barely would be top 10 all time on the surface. Goolagong also won 6 slams on grass to Evert's 5 at a time there were equal opportunity to play multiple slam events on grass. Court underperformed at Wimbledon, still winning the same # of Wimbleons as Evert mind you, but her U.S Open and Australian Open (even with the depleted field which still wasnt as bad as the clay court field Evert faced) speak for themselves.
suwanee4712
Professional
Even people who go by the usernames grafrules, Steffi-forever, and CEvertFan are acknowledging Martina the greatest ever on grass. That pretty much says it all. Only someone of blind ignorance could make such a statement as: "Navratilova WASN'T close to being the most dominant grass court player of all time." As for players like Ann Jones, Rosie Casals, and even the insanely talented but mentally frail Goolagong being significant threats to prime Martina on grass, or bigger ones then Chris was:
Agreed. Martina was the by far the most dominant player on grass. And I think it's interesting that it is suggested that Martina was lucky to not have to play King, Goolagong, etc. on grass. Well she did play several of those players at Wimbledon and beat them.
Also, if anyone is fortunate, it would be Graf. Because the bulk of her career was played in an era where she faced very, very few true grass court players. Just imagine if she had to play a few more McNeil and de Swaardt type players on grass instead of players like Sanchez and Fernandez? Or imagaine if she had to play a prime Martina or even King or Court?
One reason why Graf's record is so even across the board on all surfaces is because everyone moved to the same power baseline game rendering surface relatively meaningless to many of the top players. I mean when Conchita Martinez can win a Wimbledon title, that should tell us something about the lack of true quality grass court play.
It's not Steffi's fault. I just have a hard time believing that people are going to say that Martina was lucky when she won 9 Wimbledon titles and 3 Australians on grass courts. Had the mid 70's US Opens still been played on grass, she might've won one of those too despite not even being close to her prime.
suwanee4712
Professional
Chris is an extremely underated grass court player. And Martina is an extremely underated clay court player. If not for one another, their respective records at Wimbledon and the French likely would be even better than they are.
Evert won 3 Wimbledons and 2 Australians on grass. Considering that she had the misfortune of going against 3 of the greatest grass court players of all time, King, Goolagaong, and Martina in most of her finals, I'd say she did rather well. And her first Aussie title came at the expense of the greatest grass court player ever, Martina.
As underated as Chris is on grass, Martina may be even more underated on clay. I don't agree that Sanchez is better than Martina on any surface. In a French Open final, I would take Martina over Sanchez in straight sets 4 times out of 5. Just because Martina preferred to serve and volley does not mean that she did not have a game for clay courts, especially red clay similar to what she grew up on.
Martina has 2 French Open titles, but she's about 10 points total from having 5 French titles. Her losses to Evert in 1985 and 1986 were epic matches. And she served for the match vs. Steffi in the 1987 final and double faulted it away. Up until that point, Martina really had dominated the last 2 sets.
She easily could've and probably should have won in 85. In 86, she was crushing Chris and made the arrogant mistake of thinking that she would beat Chris in straight sets from the baseline. Had she played the game she should've played instead of listening to Mike Estep, she would've won the 1986 title about as easily as she had beaten Chris for the 1984 title. Instead she stood at the baseline and grooved Evert's strokes for her. By the time she realized her mistake, she had no chance of beating Chris' laser like passing shots.
I doubt that a prime Sanchez could've even gotten a set off of Martina had she been in Chris' place in 1985 and 1986 or in Steffi's place in 1987.
And lastly, the best performance I've ever seen on a clay court was Martina's 1984 SF and F wins. She won a dazzling match filled with winners from all over the court by both players against Hana. And then she toyed with Evert in the final beating her with serves, volleys, overheads, and even topspin backhands and dropshots from the backcourt.
Evert won 3 Wimbledons and 2 Australians on grass. Considering that she had the misfortune of going against 3 of the greatest grass court players of all time, King, Goolagaong, and Martina in most of her finals, I'd say she did rather well. And her first Aussie title came at the expense of the greatest grass court player ever, Martina.
As underated as Chris is on grass, Martina may be even more underated on clay. I don't agree that Sanchez is better than Martina on any surface. In a French Open final, I would take Martina over Sanchez in straight sets 4 times out of 5. Just because Martina preferred to serve and volley does not mean that she did not have a game for clay courts, especially red clay similar to what she grew up on.
Martina has 2 French Open titles, but she's about 10 points total from having 5 French titles. Her losses to Evert in 1985 and 1986 were epic matches. And she served for the match vs. Steffi in the 1987 final and double faulted it away. Up until that point, Martina really had dominated the last 2 sets.
She easily could've and probably should have won in 85. In 86, she was crushing Chris and made the arrogant mistake of thinking that she would beat Chris in straight sets from the baseline. Had she played the game she should've played instead of listening to Mike Estep, she would've won the 1986 title about as easily as she had beaten Chris for the 1984 title. Instead she stood at the baseline and grooved Evert's strokes for her. By the time she realized her mistake, she had no chance of beating Chris' laser like passing shots.
I doubt that a prime Sanchez could've even gotten a set off of Martina had she been in Chris' place in 1985 and 1986 or in Steffi's place in 1987.
And lastly, the best performance I've ever seen on a clay court was Martina's 1984 SF and F wins. She won a dazzling match filled with winners from all over the court by both players against Hana. And then she toyed with Evert in the final beating her with serves, volleys, overheads, and even topspin backhands and dropshots from the backcourt.
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Grass:
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Steffi Graf
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Venus Williams
6. Billie Jean King
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Clay:
1. Chris Evert
2. Steffi Graf
3. Monica Seles
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Margaret Court
6. Justine Henin
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Martina Navratilova
10. Gabriela Sabatini
Hard courts:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Monica Seles
4. Serena Williams
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Lindsay Davenport
8. Martina Hingis
9. Maria Sharapova
10. Venus Williams
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Steffi Graf
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Venus Williams
6. Billie Jean King
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Clay:
1. Chris Evert
2. Steffi Graf
3. Monica Seles
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Margaret Court
6. Justine Henin
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario
9. Martina Navratilova
10. Gabriela Sabatini
Hard courts:
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Monica Seles
4. Serena Williams
5. Chris Evert
6. Justine Henin
7. Lindsay Davenport
8. Martina Hingis
9. Maria Sharapova
10. Venus Williams
How weak would their competition have looked now if the other didnt even exist. Anyway that argument could be made for any # of players. Steffi would have 8 French Opens if Seles wasnt ever around. Seles could have won the 89 and 99 Frenchs if Steffi didnt exist, and would have never been stabbed to boot so maybe wins 10 French Opens or something amazing like that with both no stabbing and no Steffi. How many grand slams would Sanchez Vicario and Sabatini each have won if Steffi Graf didnt exist.
Yeah because a player who never lost in straight sets to a prime Graf in 5 semifinal and final meetings at the French, going 2-3 and with all 3 losses being in 3 sets would somehow be straight setted almost each time by a prime Navratilova on clay. After all we know prime Navratilova is a greater clay courter than Graf.
What a joke.Again that argument could be made for alot of players. Graf was probably about 5 combined points from winning the 89, 90, and 92 French Opens. She got to 30 in match games in the 89 and 92 finals, and wins the 1990 final if she takes one of her four 1st set points.
Please. It was an epic, but Chris deserved to win that match more than Martina did. Chris was the one who was up a set and up in the 2nd set and could have easily won the match in 2 sets. If Martina had won it would have almost been a slightly unfair result, Chris was definitely the one who led and controlled more of the match.
Yeah right. Since Sanchez was only beating prime Graf or losing 10-8 in the 3rd set to a prime Graf on clay. In her prime she never could have done as well as a developing pre-prime Graf did in 1987.
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suwanee4712
Professional
How weak would their competition have looked now if the other didnt even exist. Anyway that argument could be made for any # of players. Steffi would have 8 French Opens if Seles wasnt ever around. Seles could have won the 89 and 99 Frenchs if Steffi didnt exist, and would have never been stabbed to boot so maybe wins 10 French Opens or something amazing like that with both no stabbing and no Steffi. How many grand slams would Sanchez Vicario and Sabatini each have won if Steffi Graf didnt exist.
Yeah because a player who never lost in straight sets to a prime Graf in 5 semifinal and final meetings at the French, going 2-3 and with all 3 losses being in 3 sets would somehow be straight setted almost each time by a prime Navratilova on clay. After all we know prime Navratilova is a greater clay courter than Graf.
Again that argument could be made for alot of players. Graf was probably about 5 combined points from winning the 89, 90, and 92 French Opens. She got to 30 in match games in the 89 and 92 finals, and wins the 1990 final if she takes one of her four 1st set points.
Please. It was an epic, but Chris deserved to win that match more than Martina did. Chris was the one who was up a set and up in the 2nd set and could have easily won the match in 2 sets. If Martina had won it would have almost been a slightly unfair result, Chris was definitely the one who led and controlled more of the match.
Yeah right. Since Sanchez was only beating prime Graf or losing 10-8 in the 3rd set to a prime Graf on clay. In her prime she never could have done as well as a developing pre-prime Graf did in 1987.
You seem to think that a matchup between Sanchez and Graf is the same thing as a matchup between Sanchez and Martina. It's not. Sanchez is a player that rarely troubled Martina. She's also a player that thrived in an era where almost player played her game. If she went sub .500 against a rare all court player like Novotna who sometimes served and volleyed, imagine how she would've done against a pure serve and vollyer like Martina? My guess is there were lots of serve and volleyers that would've loved to play Sanchez as one of their top 2/3 competition.
I also don't agree with your Chris/Martina and Graf/Seles scenerios. There's a huge difference. The first pair played almost entirely within the length of the careers of one another and most definitely through each player's peak period. Not so with the latter pair. As it was, Seles' peak was very short due to the stabbing. We actually got to see Steffi's "what if" scenerio played out since she played another 5 or so years without the presence of another top 10 Open era player, excluding a somewhat lesser Seles. That's a luxury that neither Martina nor Chris ever had.
And in Sanchez's case, that's a luxury that players like Mandlikova, Austin, Jaeger, Wade, etc. never had either.
Just my opinion........
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This post gets epic fail. FYI, after Austin snapped Chris' win streak on clay at the Italian Open in 1979 in a very tight 3 set match, decided in a third set tiebreaker, Evert then went on another win streak that hit 72 matches before she lost again on clay. This was from 79-81. Some of the players she beat for her clay court titles, big titles like the French, Italian, US Open, and Family Circle Cup, include Navratilova, Goolagong, King, Austin, Mandlikova, Graf, Sanchez-Vicario and Sabatini.
In fact, in her last year on the tour, 1989, a 35 year old Evert took Seles to three sets in the final of a clay court tournament in Houston. (As an aside, on hard courts, she took a prime Graf to three sets in the final of the Virginia Slims of Boca Raton).
As for your comment about her record vs. Goolagong on grass, Goolagong won their first three encounters on grass, the last being the 74 US Open. All of those matches went to three sets. Chris then beat Goolagong in the 76 Wimbledon final in three, crushed her in the 79 Wimbledon finals, and finished her career 4-4 vs Goolagong on grass and 26-13 overall.
Chris also won the Australian, on grass, twice, beating Martina once, Helena Sukova once, and losing to Martina twice in three sets in the finals.
How about some of the players Graf beat for her French Opens. Zvereva? Mary Jo Fernandez? Martina Hingis? The only truly good clay court player either Seles or Graf had to deal with was Sanchez-Vicario. Even with only a handful of players to worry about, Graf was never able to come close to a streak like what Evert put together on clay.
hewittboy
Banned
Funny stuff. Your post and its so called explanations has all the power of one of the powderpuff second serves from Evert that Austin and Navratilova slammed away for winners.
Yet luckily for Chris because Tracy hardly played on clay during her best years, Chris never again had to face Tracy on clay during the stretch from 1979 to 1981 where she was being dominated by Tracy in head to head. So in their only match on clay during Tracy's short 3 year peak, Chris had her long clay court win streak amassed vs the biggest field of clay court clowns ever assembled broken by a barely 16 year old Tracy Austin.
Yet who did she face in those? Not Austin as I already pointed out, who luckily for Chris didnt play much on clay those years and likely saved Chris alot of further losses as teenage Austin had already made Chris her personal doormat those few years she was healthy. Except for a final at the very depleted 1975 French Open, Navratilova achieved nothing on clay until 1982. Mandlikova did not become a top player until 1981 and was never a great clay courter anyway.
If you want an idea here are Chris's draws to the 1979 and 1980 French Open titles:
1979:
2R def. Kate Latham 6-1, 6-0
3R def. Laura DuPont 6-3, 6-3
4R def. Ivanna Madruga 4-6, 6-2, 6-3
QF def. Ruta Gerulaitis 6-0. 6-4
SF def. Dianne Fromholtz 6-1, 6-3
F def. Wendy Turnbull 6-2, 6-0
1980:
1R def. Caroline Franch 6-0, 6-0
2R def. Pam Teeguarden 6-1, 6-1
3R def. Bettina Bunge 4-6, 6-4, 6-3
QF def. Kathy Jordan 6-2, 6-0
SF def. Hana Mandlikova 6-7, 6-2, 6-2
F def. Virginia Ruzici 6-0, 6-3
What a complete sham. Any draw Graf, Seles, or even Sanchez Vicario faced in French Opens they won or lost in the finals puts those to shame.
Yes and when exactly did she beat those to win her big clay court titles:
Graf- Chris's only wins over Graf on clay were in 1985 when Graf was only 15 years old. Graf was not even a top 10 player at the time. Her next meeting with Graf on clay when Graf was still only 16 she loses in straight sets.
King- this is supposed to be impressive on clay!?!
Austin- Chris's only win over Austin on clay was in 1978 when Austin was only 15 years old. She then lost her only other meeting to Austin on clay at only 16 as I said.
Sabatini- all of her wins over Sabatini on clay were when Sabatini was only 15 or barely 16 years old, and even then some of them went 3 sets with Sabatini winning some 6-1 sets.
Sanchez Vicario- they played 2 matches on clay when neither player was anywhere near their primes. Sanchez Vicario was only 16 and ranked #45 and #22 in the world. Evert herself was 33. They each won one.
Basically most of the names you bring up are jokes. Unless you would find it reasonable for people to laud Graf's constant thrashings of a 31-34 year old Evert. So that leaves only:
Navratilova- Only a true force on clay from 1982 to 1987. Despite that Navratilova would never rank up with the short list of all time greats on clay like Evert, Graf, Lenglen, Seles, she was probably superior to Evert on clay during her prime. Evert went 2-2 vs Martina at the French Open these years, but both of Evert's wins were very close hard fought ones, whereas Martina thrashed Evert in the 1984 final and 1987 semis. She also thrashed her at Amelia Island in 1984 in their other clay court meeting during this period.
Mandlikova- Hana's worst surface was certainly clay and it would be a stretch to ever call her a top tier clay courter. That being said she was clearly one of the best opponents Evert ever faced on the surface during her winning years. If Goolagong and Mandlikova are the toughest "clay court" competition you can come up for Martina during her dominance on the surface than that says something.
Evert's clay court competition during her 125 match win streak was absolutely nothing. Like I said it makes even the weak clay court field Henin has dominated look like a gods field. It only took at 16 year old Austin or Mandlikova on her worst surface (beating Evert in the 1981 French Open semis) to have Evert start losing some matches on clay again. Evert's toughest match during her win streak was when she had to recover from down 7-6, 5-0, 40-15 vs a 32 year old Nancy Richey, a player who in her prime won 1 French Open. Her last ever loss on clay before her win streak started was a loss to the 31 year old pregnant Court in the French Open final. So it didnt even have to be great competition, just some competition. I mantain what I said that any of Graf, Seles, Lenglen, maybe Court, would have all won 100+ straight matches on clay too with Evert's 1974-1978 competition on the surface. As we see even a prime Navratilova was good enough to be killing Chris in some of their meetings on clay.
No mention at all that Seles was only 15 years old, on her first full time year on tour. No mention Seles wasnt even ranked in the top 10 at the time of this match, and Evert was ranked #4. I love how you keep mentioning how old Evert was, and not even mentioning the point all her opponents were in their careers.
So and older Evert taking a mere 1 set in a bunch of matches vs prime Graf is supposed to be impressive now? Billie Jean King at 38 on knees that had been wrecked for years was still taking Evert to 3 sets at Wimbledon.
Goolagong's prime was 1971 to 1976. If you think she was the same player from 1978-1980 then you are delusional. On the other hand Evert was definitely in her prime in 1974 when Goolagong beat her twice on grass in slam events that year. Evert's only ever win vs a prime Goolagong on grass was 8-6 in the 3rd set in the 1976 Wimbledon final so needless to a prime Goolagong was a hell opponent for Evert on grass. Even a clearly past her prime Goolagong beat a prime Evert easily in straight sets in the 1980 Wimbledon final. Goolagong > Evert on grass.
You truly have to be joking. Chris is the one who had NOBODY to worry about on clay from 1974-1981. Even from 1982-1986 she had nobody to worry about on clay except Navratilova. Look at the draw to the title she had in 1983 once Martina was upset.
There were alot of very good clay courters during the Graf era, so many more than Chris ever faced especialy during her bigtime clay court dominance from 1974-1981. Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario, Pierce, Martinez, Seles for a large period of time. As for the names you pulled up: on clay Zvereva, Fernandez, Hingis >>> mid 30s King, mid 30s Court, mid 30s Richey, Wade, Casals, Morozov, Ruzica, and whoever else Evert ever faced on clay during her vaunted 125 match win streak. Zvereva, Fernandez, and Hingis are the 3 weakest final round opponents you can come up with. Did you know 4 of Chris's 7 French Open titles were beating Morozova, Ruzica, Jausovec, and Turnbull in the finals, yet you are mocking Hingis (a 5 time slam winner), Fernandez, and Zvereva, LOL!
Believe me Graf, Seles, or any other great clay court player would have loved to have faced the fields Evert faced on clay. Why would Evert have loved to have faced a prime Sabatini when she was struggling in some of her wins vs a 15 year and 16 year old Sabatini, or why would she love to face a prime Sanchez when she was spanked by her at the French Open when she was still in the top 5 and Sanchez not even in the top 20. Especialy when her alternatives are getting to play Morozova, Ruzica, Turnbull, and Jausovec in 4 of her 7 French Open finals. So Evert would rather have faced Graf, Seles, Sanchez, Sabatini, Pierce et al on clay instead of Goolagong, Wade, mid 30s Richey, mid 30s King, Ruzica, Jausovec, on clay like during her 125 match win streak!?!? Please.
Also funny how you brought up the 15 and just turned 16 year old Sabatini as one of the "tough" opponents Evert beat to win her clay court titles yet now even a prime Sabatini apparently isnt even counted as a "truly good clay court player". Your twisted Evert fanatical arguments are a joke.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Evert lost to Sanchez-Vicario at the French because it was one of the rare times Evert was injured during her career plus she was already way past her prime in '88.
Also you point out that Austin broke the clay court streak of Evert when she was only 16 and you make light of Austin as if she was nothing special. If Austin had remained healthy she would have finished her career as one of the all time greats and the 80s would have played out MUCH differently for both Evert AND Navratilova - you are seriously underestimating how great Austin was, plus she was a true teenage phenom to boot. The Evert/Austin rivalry stands at 9-8 in Tracy's favor, which isn't lopsided either way although Evert beat Austin in their last match 6-0, 6-0 but Tracy was pretty much done by that time anyway.
Also you point out that Austin broke the clay court streak of Evert when she was only 16 and you make light of Austin as if she was nothing special. If Austin had remained healthy she would have finished her career as one of the all time greats and the 80s would have played out MUCH differently for both Evert AND Navratilova - you are seriously underestimating how great Austin was, plus she was a true teenage phenom to boot. The Evert/Austin rivalry stands at 9-8 in Tracy's favor, which isn't lopsided either way although Evert beat Austin in their last match 6-0, 6-0 but Tracy was pretty much done by that time anyway.
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hewittboy
Banned
So my point was never to say Evert was in her prime. Do you really think 22nd ranked newbie Sanchez was in her prime either at the 88 French?! Since Evert was in the top 5 almost certainly Sanchez was even alot further from it so if it is really neccessary to discuss the match it was an amazing win at that point in time for Sanchez.
My only point though was most of the examples given of the supposed amazing people Evert beat for her clay court titles by the previous poster were dumb since those players were either 15 year olds just coming up the ranks themselves, or a player Chris lost to once at 16 and never played again on the surface (Austin), or a player who was not that much a force on clay (Billie Jean King).
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
Sorry to correct you but Evert did NOT beat Goolagong in the '79 Wimbledon final - Navratilova beat Evert 6-4, 6-4. Evert beat Goolagong in the semis 6-3, 6-2, a loss which Evonne avenged a year later by beating Evert in the '80 final after Chris had beaten Martina in the semis.
"Evert was losing almost all her matches to a prime Goolagong in grass so it is hard to believe she was really better than ever her on grass, yet Goolagong barely would be top 10 all time on the surface. Goolagong also won 6 slams on grass to Evert's 5 at a time there were equal opportunity to play multiple slam events on grass. Court underperformed at Wimbledon, still winning the same # of Wimbleons as Evert mind you, but her U.S Open and Australian Open (even with the depleted field which still wasnt as bad as the clay court field Evert faced) speak for themselves.[/QUOTE]"
Delighted to compare. Let's talk about what these great grass courters did. Remember I said Evert had reached the semis of 26 of 27 grass court slam events. Well,
Bueno played a total of 25 grass slams and has 4 qf losses, one 4th rd loss, two 3rd rd losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
Court played 37 grass slams and has 4 QF losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
King played 51 grass slams has 8 QF losses, two 3rd rd losses, 2 2nd rd losses, and two occasions when she lost in the first rd.
Goolagong played 29 grass slams has 3 Qf losses, 0ne 4th rd loss, four 3rd rd losses, four 2nd rd losses.
Navratilova has played 31 grass slams and has 3 QF losses, two 3rd round losses, and three first round losses.
Graf played 13 grass slams and has two 4th rd losses, two 3rd round losses, and two first rd losses.
Williams has 2 QF losses, one 3rd rd loss, one 2nd rd loss, and one first rd loss just bay playing Wimbledon alone.
These ladies are professionals. Whenever they walk on the court, They know their result is part of their record . Its part of their record whether they chose to turn pro too early, played too long , palyed injured, in the midst of divorce or whatever Its a professional choice to put your name in, and to compete, so don't make excuses for their losses and laud their victories. These mediocre or downright embarrassing results are not part of Evert's grass court game
Delighted to compare. Let's talk about what these great grass courters did. Remember I said Evert had reached the semis of 26 of 27 grass court slam events. Well,
Bueno played a total of 25 grass slams and has 4 qf losses, one 4th rd loss, two 3rd rd losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
Court played 37 grass slams and has 4 QF losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
King played 51 grass slams has 8 QF losses, two 3rd rd losses, 2 2nd rd losses, and two occasions when she lost in the first rd.
Goolagong played 29 grass slams has 3 Qf losses, 0ne 4th rd loss, four 3rd rd losses, four 2nd rd losses.
Navratilova has played 31 grass slams and has 3 QF losses, two 3rd round losses, and three first round losses.
Graf played 13 grass slams and has two 4th rd losses, two 3rd round losses, and two first rd losses.
Williams has 2 QF losses, one 3rd rd loss, one 2nd rd loss, and one first rd loss just bay playing Wimbledon alone.
These ladies are professionals. Whenever they walk on the court, They know their result is part of their record . Its part of their record whether they chose to turn pro too early, played too long , palyed injured, in the midst of divorce or whatever Its a professional choice to put your name in, and to compete, so don't make excuses for their losses and laud their victories. These mediocre or downright embarrassing results are not part of Evert's grass court game
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hewittboy
Banned
She was only 16 at the time of that win, and that was the ONLY time she and Evert would play on clay. So how does that make her any kind of legit competition on clay that Evert faced, or especialy that Evert took down? Two matches on the surface, one when Austin was only 15 which Evert won, and one when Austin was 16 which Austin won (breaking the vaunted 125 match win streak so obviously Austin isnt included other than 1 match when Tracy was 15), then never again. I never denied Austin was very good, just pointing out that she was only 16 when she beat Chris and Evert still never had to face her again on the surface. Are you going to try and tell me the clay court field from 1974 to 1978 when Evert went undefeated was anything above pathetic, or even up to 1981 considering Navratilova was a non entity on the surface those years, and she never played Austin again on clay after that early 1979 match. In 1979 and 1980 many women did not play on clay since the French Open wasnt seen as important those years, the same reason Evert herself didnt even play it in 1976-1978. In 1981 Austin had to miss the clay court season with a serious ailment. Also if every match Evert lost after 30 somehow doesnt count, then how does it become irrelevant to point out what point her opponents were at in their careers as well.
You are basically admitting Navratilova and Evert were both fortunate Austin could not stay healthy past 18 years old. I totally agree there. Now how is that supposed to be an argument in favor of the "competition" level they faced? 1979 and 1980 at 16 and 17 was her best, and as I said had nothing to do with Chris's clay court competition as she barely played or faced Chris on clay. By only 1981 at 18 years old she missed almost half the year with sciatica. She never played close to full time any year after, and was never the same player again. Even you are admitting by the end of 1982 Austin was basically "done" so we agreeing there. During Austin's prime from 1979-1981 Evert was only 4-9.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
My point in saying that Evert was already past her prime in '88 was that any player who is past their prime suffers more frequent bad losses. Also, considering that Arantxa won the FO in a big surprise a year later I would say she wasn't all that far from her prime in '88 and since clay was HER best surface too and Evert was injured it wasn't a surprise that she pulled off the upset win.
Evertfan I just put those great grass court players wins into context of early rd losses. Evert's acheivement is incredible on her 'worst surface' She was more consistent than any of them excepting maybe Margaret, who really had mighty few early losses considering how many events she played. See above.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
You keep making an issue of how young Austin was - well that's what teen phenoms do, they are forces to be reckoned with even at their young ages.
Evert had a string of bad losses to Austin but as I already pointed out Austin was just as great IMO as either Navratilova or Evert was at the time and was beating Martina and everyone else too. Evert was starting to solve the Austin problem but then Tracy's career ended with all those injuries so we'll never know if Evert would have come out on top of that rivalry - as it is though Austin is still only one of three players to have a winning record over Evert with the other two being Graf and Navratilova which says something about how great Chris was in her own right and how great Austin was too.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
hewittboy
Banned
In Sanchez's 3 tournaments preceding the French Open all on clay she lost to Fulco-Villella, Kelesi, and Zrubakova. Obviously there was a reason she was an unseeded player. After the big win over Evert she couldnt even beat Nicole Bradtke to make the semis of the French. I would say based on that she was extremely far from her prime as far as her level of play. If you are familiar with prime Sanchez on clay you would too. A player improves alot more quickly in their teen years than they regress in their aging years which is a more gradual process at first if the player is reasonably healthy.
Also Sanchez would probably still not be considered in her prime even in 1989 despite her shock French Open win. Chang won the French that year, the only slam he ever, do you think he was in his prime. Evert was in her prime until 1985 or 1986 still.
Anyway we both agree a match between the two on clay in 1988 is pretty much irrelevant so no point really discussing it further. That is my whole point in the first place, Evert's so called conquests of these players to win her clay court tournaments are a joke and pointless considering when they were.
CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
I am familiar with Arantxa and her clay court prowess - I've been watching tennis for MANY years now. '88 was Arantxa's transition year - when a player goes from being mediocre to being something more as she proved a year later by beating Graf, which I watched live BTW.
You can't compare Chang to Arantxa - in the men's game it is so much harder for short guys to do well and for Chang to even make it to #2 in the world during his career shows he was pretty good. He never won another major because he was too short and didn't have the big weapon.
Graf was just as dominant a player in her prime as Evert was in hers and Graf couldn't come anywhere near that streak - it doesn't matter who Evert played or didn't play because during her career she was so far above everyone else on clay that almost EVERY match was going to be an easy win for Evert.
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hewittboy
Banned
The whole point which you keep missing is Austin was not someone Evert was taking down to dominate on clay or had to deal with on the surface. Her one and only win over Austin on clay was not even at 16, but at 15, the age no teen phenom or player of any kind in history has won a major event. She lost to Austin at 16, but they never played again on the surface so she was just another baseless example of Evert clay court competition as she was never there to play Evert on the surface. It doesnt matter how good she was when Evert was never playing or beating Austin on clay except for that one loss to her at 16.
We could say the same for Evert then as she was a "teen phenom" wasnt she? After all she beat Margaret Court at only 15 years old, and was beating the best players and making slam semis at only 16. Yet I have seen you on other threads downplay the various slam wins of Court and King over a now 18 year old Evert in 1973. Sorry that just seems a little too convenient, especialy now.
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CEvertFan
Hall of Fame
I never downplayed Court's or King's wins over Evert but I've seen others downplay Evert's wins over King and Court during that time because they were too old or because King had bad knees etc.
And yes Evert was also a teen phenom and was a force to be reckoned with even at 15-18 even if she wasn't yet winning majors - same as Austin.
Very well said.
If you are under the impression I am talking about how Sanchez might fare vs Navratilova overall you are gravely mistaken. I am referring to clay and clay only in this case. I concur Sanchez Vicario would do little damage to Navratilova on other surfaces. I was opposing your notion prime Navratilova was a cinch to straight set Sanchez everytime on clay, when Graf couldnt even come close to doing so.
They never played each other on clay in their mutual primes of course. Navratilova's wins were in 1986 and 1988 when Sanchez Vicario was barely on the radar screen. Next was in 1990 in Hamburg which Sanchez Vicario won when ASV was now more matured and Navratilova on the way down of course(it was 3 sets by MN won only 3 games combined in the 2 sets she lost so was nowhere near winning). Final meeting in 1994 where of course Sanchez should win easily and did. So no real evidence one way or the other to how ASV might fare vs Navratilova on clay.
From the 1989 French Open through to the end of 1996 Novotna was 0-5 vs a prime Sanchez Vicario on clay, not even getting one set. So in the context I am only talking about clay in this case she is irrelevant.
This means nothing to what I said though. Graf still lost 2 French Opens to Seles so it is pointless to act like Seles never existed in the "what if so and so never existed case". So without Seles, Graf wins 8 French Opens, just as without Evert, Martina wins 4 or 5.
Sanchez still had Graf all those years and won 3 slams under the watch of the Graf reign. I guess that means nothing now though. Austin didnt need Evert or Navratilova out of the way, she just needed to stay healthy. If she had I doubt Chris and Martina would have had such an easy ride as they did have vs the otherwise field of mediocre era fillers they lorded over most of the decade, apart from the sparatically brilliant Mandlikova.
Indeed you are right. She did beat a 34 year old Billie Jean King on grass right before winning Wimbledon, which now tied Martina's head to head 6-6 with King at this point, all matches taking place between a 33 and 34 year old King in 1977 and 1978. She then was defeated by a 35 year old King in their 2nd meeting on grass 6-2, 6-1, following Martina's 2nd straight Wimbledon title. Their 3rd and final meeting on grass saw two time defending Wimbledon Champ Martina win 10-8 in the 3rd set over a 36 year old King to barely eke out a 2-1 career edge vs King on grass, all vs a 34-36 year old King.
I suppose nowhere near as impressive as Graf also going 2-1 vs a 30-32 year old Martina on grass, who won 15 of her 18 slams from age 25 to 31 though. That was just Graf beating up on an "old" Martina and nowhere near as impressive.
You are right especialy as the 1982-1987 field on grass where Martina six-peaked was just scary chalked few of true grass courters. It even included semifinalists such as Bettina Bunge (1982), 38 year old Billie Jean King (1982 and took Evert to 3 sets), 39 year old Billie Jean King (1983), Yvonne Vermaak (1983), Kathy Jordan (1984), and Kathy Rinaldi (1985). An inexperienced Steffi Graf certainly found it incredibly difficult as she plowed through to the 87 final in only her 3rd ever tournament on grass, ceding only 2 games in the semis to the perennial #4 of the great Martina era of grass court specialists- Pam Shriver. Lets be fair though, Shriver had just turned 25. So perhaps the poor gal was also "past her prime" now.
Last I checked de Swaardt had never beaten Graf at Wimbledon. McNeil did pull the biggest upset of Graf's Wimbledon career in 1994, so perhaps we should also go along those lines and say imagine if Navratilova had to play a few more Horvath type players at the French Open. Again wasnt Shriver the longtime World #4 of Martina's era some serve/volley great. I mean she had to be in order to mantain such a high ranking during this incredible era of grass courters, yet in 1988 and 1989 managed only 5 games combined in 2 semifinal losses to Graf. Maybe Graf can handle serve/volleyers on grass after all, or maybe Shriver was just past her prime at 25 or 26 given the extremely short primes all the supposably incredible player from the Chris or Martina eras seem to be granted, especialy when heaven forbid Graf starts beating them.
A prime Graf also did back to back years win convincing 3 setters over Navratilova in the Wimbledon final. I would have thought that counted for something. I guess Martina was just too "old" at 31 and 32 though. Strangely whereas a Martina who won 15 of her 18 slams from 25 to 31 was too old somehow at only 31 and 32, King was not too old to beat Evert on grass with knees so bad she would initialy retire in 1975. I guess King was not "too old" until 1977 when Evert finally got her first win over King on grass. Nor was Court who began dominating tennis at age 19, not age 25, too old at 31 pregnant to go 1-1 vs Evert on grass and 2-1 in slams (including a win in the French Open final) vs Evert for the year 1973.
Well since Graf as a teenager was able to win 12 of the last 13 games to storm from behind and win the final over a 31 year old Navratilova, the so called GOAT on grass, I suspect she might well be able to beat a 31 year old King on bad knees which Evert couldnt do in 1975. Or that in her prime she might have won a bit more easily than 10-8 in the 3rd set vs a 36 year old King, or 6-3 in the 3rd set vs a 38 year old King. Or that at 20 year old Graf would have been able to beat 33 year old Court at Wimbledon, which Navratilova couldnt do. Maybe that is just me though.
Wow you say something I agree with. I will faint for shock now.
Yes Martina reached the finals of none of the Wimbledons from 1975-1977, losing to 33 year old Margaret Court and 31 year old Betty Stove in 2 of the 3 years in the quarters. Yet we should presume she would have won one of the U.S Opens had they been played on grass those years. I very much follow your logic.
suwanee4712
Professional
There are a lot of assumptions being made as if there is some magical formula to determine when someone's peak period was, or some age as to how viable an opponent should be to the top players. Well, there isn't. Just as human beings range in huge differences in other parts of our lives, so it can be with tennis players and their careers. There are too many variables from injury to motivation, to kids, to outside interests that play into this. The only way to determine a peak period or viability as a top player is to look at the actual achievements of the individual players.
There is also a complete lack of respect for some very fine players who were better at what they did than most people are at what they do at any time in their life. No, Virginia Ruzici might not have ever threated Chris or Martina on any surface. But that doesn't mean that she wasn't a very fine player in the context of her era. If Graf fans think that there isn't a Ruzici-like equivalent in Steffi's career, then you'd be wrong.
Every time Turnbull's name gets mentioned, it's in a derogatory fashion about how she was in her mid 30's when she reached #3 in the world. Could it not be that she simply was a more consistent player at 33 than she was at 27? She deserves a lot more respect than she's being given by some of you. Just because Steffi does or does not do something at a certain age, that doesn't mean that it should be the same for everyone else.
We also have a poster that apparently doesn't think a player like Mandlikova wasn't much of a clay courter. They haven't done their homework. The French Open from 1979-1986 was her most consistent slam only failing to reach her seed once and going beyond her seed 4 different times, and defeating Evert, Austin, and Graf along the way. Her career win % on that surface is better than it was on grass. But my guess is the same poster will hail Sabatini as some great clay court player, even though she never won a French title as Hana did - nor did she ever defeat an all time great in Paris as Hana did.
In other words, some posters would do well to take a fresh and honest look at things.
There is also a complete lack of respect for some very fine players who were better at what they did than most people are at what they do at any time in their life. No, Virginia Ruzici might not have ever threated Chris or Martina on any surface. But that doesn't mean that she wasn't a very fine player in the context of her era. If Graf fans think that there isn't a Ruzici-like equivalent in Steffi's career, then you'd be wrong.
Every time Turnbull's name gets mentioned, it's in a derogatory fashion about how she was in her mid 30's when she reached #3 in the world. Could it not be that she simply was a more consistent player at 33 than she was at 27? She deserves a lot more respect than she's being given by some of you. Just because Steffi does or does not do something at a certain age, that doesn't mean that it should be the same for everyone else.
We also have a poster that apparently doesn't think a player like Mandlikova wasn't much of a clay courter. They haven't done their homework. The French Open from 1979-1986 was her most consistent slam only failing to reach her seed once and going beyond her seed 4 different times, and defeating Evert, Austin, and Graf along the way. Her career win % on that surface is better than it was on grass. But my guess is the same poster will hail Sabatini as some great clay court player, even though she never won a French title as Hana did - nor did she ever defeat an all time great in Paris as Hana did.
In other words, some posters would do well to take a fresh and honest look at things.
hewittboy
Banned
Yet Graf's dominance over Martina and the womens game while Martina was #2 in the late 80s is diminished by the Martina-Evert homers on this forum just because Martina was in her early 30s. The same Martina who won 15 of her 18 career slam titles dating form just after her 25th birthday and up until just before her 31st birthday. Chris Evert being dominated by Graf completely in their final 3 years is diminished because she was 31 when this streak started, never mind that she won her record 7th French Open at 31, and that she is an all time great player who incredible longevity (or that Graf herself was only 16 when this streak started). Yet in light of this the same people call it unfair that Turnbull's doing so well at a certain age is brought up.
The Martina-Evert homers like yourself have two sets of rules, one for their two goddesses, and one for everyone else (Graf, Court, King, Seles, The Williams, etc...). Martina-Evert homers are the ones who go out of their way to disrespect any player who wasnt a direct enough opponent of Martina or Chris, or the success players not named Martina or Chris had vs certain players, more than anyone else so are the last ones fit to make such accusations.
I read you last week calling down the 1994 field as being completely empty and forgettable and mocking players such as Martinez, Date, and others who did well that year yet you are now the one upset that Ruzici isnt respected enough. It is hard to take you seriously at all.
Completely ignoring the fact that the 80s top 20 was almost entirely serve/volley players who were all superior on grass or even a hard court to clay. You could easily be at your own worst on clay, yet still more balanced on all surfaces than most and thus post as good or better results on clay.
As for Sabatini vs Mandlikova on clay Sabatini has many more tier 1 titles and wins over top clay courters like Seles and Graf in their primes than Hana has in her career on the surface. Hana's one edge though is the 1981 French Open where she beat Chris and won the title, something Sabatini failed to do.
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Hewittboy. while you busy downgrading all of the competition, Evert faced on clay courts, take a look at where that leaves you. With her incredibly consistent lifetime record on grass, playing in a great grass court era, compared to the people you laud as so wonderful on grass. How bout to start giving credit where its due and denying credit for folks who can't manage to make to the semis on their best surface more often than Evert can on her worst. Oh leave off all those excuses.
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Venus Williams
7. Billie Jean King
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Here's the whole truth
Bueno played a total of 25 grass slams and has 4 qf losses, one 4th rd loss, two 3rd rd losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
Court played 37 grass slams and has 4 QF losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
King played 51 grass slams has 8 QF losses, two 3rd rd losses, 2 2nd rd losses, and two occasions when she lost in the first rd.
Goolagong played 29 grass slams has 3 Qf losses, 0ne 4th rd loss, four 3rd rd losses, four 2nd rd losses.
Navratilova has played 31 grass slams and has 3 QF losses, two 3rd round losses, and three first round losses.
Graf played 13 grass slams and has two 4th rd losses, two 3rd round losses, and two first rd losses.
Williams has 2 QF losses, one 3rd rd loss, one 2nd rd loss, and one first rd loss just bay playing Wimbledon alone.
Evert has played 27 grass court slams and one 4th rd loss.
What was it Hopman used to say? ( paraphrased) If you show up on the court, you are healthy and ready to play!
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Helen Wills Moody
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Maureen Connoly
6. Venus Williams
7. Billie Jean King
8. Margaret Court
9. Maria Bueno
10. Evonne Goolagong
Here's the whole truth
Bueno played a total of 25 grass slams and has 4 qf losses, one 4th rd loss, two 3rd rd losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
Court played 37 grass slams and has 4 QF losses, and two 2nd rd losses.
King played 51 grass slams has 8 QF losses, two 3rd rd losses, 2 2nd rd losses, and two occasions when she lost in the first rd.
Goolagong played 29 grass slams has 3 Qf losses, 0ne 4th rd loss, four 3rd rd losses, four 2nd rd losses.
Navratilova has played 31 grass slams and has 3 QF losses, two 3rd round losses, and three first round losses.
Graf played 13 grass slams and has two 4th rd losses, two 3rd round losses, and two first rd losses.
Williams has 2 QF losses, one 3rd rd loss, one 2nd rd loss, and one first rd loss just bay playing Wimbledon alone.
Evert has played 27 grass court slams and one 4th rd loss.
What was it Hopman used to say? ( paraphrased) If you show up on the court, you are healthy and ready to play!
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