All Time Women Top 10

[ATPballkid]

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Evert
4. Lenglen
5. Court
6. Graf
7. BJ King
8. Seles
9. Connolly
10. Hingis, Serena

 

[lambielspins]

It is hard to know where to rank Wills and Lenglen since they were from such a different time. I agree of modern players Navratilova should be tops, with Evert next, and Court and Graf close after that.

I dont understand your ranking Seles over Connoly. Both had their primes cut short by a tragic event, but Connoly was even more dominant then Seles won and won Wimbledon to complete the grand slam in her short prime unlike Seles.

Hingis in the top 10? No way. Her career is worse then Henin and Venus at this point.

 

[rogerfederer26]

1) M Navratilova
2) C Evert
3) M Court
4) S Graf
5) M Seles
6) H Wills
7) B King
8) M Connolly
9) S Williams
10)M Hingis
10) J Henin

 

[redsoxrock930]

henin will make her way upward in these rankings.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

Go juju...

 

[Wuornos]

henin will make her way upward in these rankings.

I hope so. I really like her, but objectively I have her down in 12th place on my rankings.

I place a lot of emphasis on dominance and who it was achieved against and unfortunately she's not as dominant so far as ome of her predecessors and I don't believe the women's game is that strong at the moment.

Take care

Tim

 

[ATPballkid]

I dont understand your ranking Seles over Connoly. Both had their primes cut short by a tragic event, but Connoly was even more dominant then Seles won and won Wimbledon to complete the grand slam in her short prime unlike Seles.

I will concentrate on her first 14 Grand Slam events as a professional player before her stabbing. And with respect to these first 14 Grand Slam events, quite frankly, nobody else since Maureen Connolly 50 years ago comes even remotely close.

There can be no doubt that the best female tennis players since Lottie Dodd 100 years ago for 3 consecutive years in their teenage years would have to be Monica Seles and Maureen Connolly. These two players should ALWAYS be ranked in the top 10 of all time in women's tennis, in my opinion. Seles can always have my #9 slot and Connolly can always have my #10 slot as permanent. Navratilova, Wills Moody, Evert, Lenglen, Evert, Court, Graf and BJ King might be the top 7 players of all-time (in some order) and this is most likely undisputed. However, when Serena Williams and any other player in the future moves into the top 10 they will have to work their way in around Connolly and Seles because those 2 are permanent .. their jerseys have been rightfully retired in the all-time top ten regardless of who comes along.

The best young player in the Open Era through her first 14 months other than Monica Seles would have to be Chris Evert. So this post is more of a comparison between these 2 players in their first 14 Grand Slam events than anything else.

Chris Evert was sensational .. no question about it she belongs in the all-time top 5 .. and in spite of Evert's tremendous consistency throughout her career, including her early years, she just cannot measure up against Seles in terms of their first 14 Grand Slam singles tournaments.

Evert played in her first Grand Slam tournament at the age of 16 years, 8 months.

Seles played in her first Grand Slam tournament at the age of 16 years, 5 months.

Because she routinely skipped the Australian and French Open, Evert was 21 years, 6 months before she played her 14th Grand Slam singles tournament. Seles was only 19 years, 1 month by the time she played her 14th Grand Slam tournament.

In their first 14 Grand Slam events Monica Seles had a cumulative record of 79-6 (92.94%) while winning 8 singles titles and reaching 9 singles finals.

In her first 14 Grand Slam events Chris Evert had a cumulative record of 72-9 (88.89%) while winning 5 singles titles and reaching 8 singles finals.

For those of you wondering why Evert only had 72 match wins in these first 14 Grand Slam events while getting through to the semis in all of 6 .. the final round in 8 .. and winning the title in 5 of them, this is because the women's singles only had a draw of 128 players at Wimbledon and this was only beginning with the year 1975. The Australian Open (which Evert only played once in her first 14 Slams) only required 4 wins for Evert to make the final round in 1974.

 

[ATPballkid]

It is hard to know where to rank Wills

Helen Wills Moody

She won the Wimbledon title a record 8 times in 9 tries (surpassed only by Martina Navratilova's 9 wins in 22 tries.

She won the U.S. championship 7 times.

She is the only player to win Wimbledon and/or the U.S. singles 15 times.

She won the Olympic Gold in singles and doubles in 1924.

From 1927 to 1932 she did not lose a set in singles anywhere to anyone.

She won 7 U.S., 5 Wimbledon and 4 French championships without loss of a set until the 1933 Wimbledon final.

In 1928 she became the first player to win three majors in the same year--French, Wimbledon and U.S.--and the first American to rule at Stade Roland Garros, where she was unbeaten while winning four titles. Her total of 19 major singles titles was the record for 32 years, until Margaret Court (24) passed her in 1970. But her success was the most phenomenal ever, considering that she won 19 of 22 entered, winning 126 of 129 matches (.977), never worse than finalist.

GRAND SLAM RECORD

Wimbledon

Singles 1927-30, 32-33, 35, 38
Singles finalist 1924
Doubles 1924, 27, 30
Mixed 1929

U.S.

Singles 1923-25, 27-29, 31
Singles finalist 1922
Doubles 1922, 24-25, 28
Doubles finalist 1933
Mixed 1924, 28
Mixed finalist 1922

French

Singles 1928-30, 1932
Doubles 1930, 32
Mixed finalist 1928, 29, 32


Olympic Gold Singles and Doubles 1924

 

[rogerfederer26]

Helen Wills Moody

She won the Wimbledon title a record 8 times in 9 tries (surpassed only by Martina Navratilova's 9 wins in 22 tries.

She won the U.S. championship 7 times.

She is the only player to win Wimbledon and/or the U.S. singles 15 times.

She won the Olympic Gold in singles and doubles in 1924.

From 1927 to 1932 she did not lose a set in singles anywhere to anyone.

She won 7 U.S., 5 Wimbledon and 4 French championships without loss of a set until the 1933 Wimbledon final.

In 1928 she became the first player to win three majors in the same year--French, Wimbledon and U.S.--and the first American to rule at Stade Roland Garros, where she was unbeaten while winning four titles. Her total of 19 major singles titles was the record for 32 years, until Margaret Court (24) passed her in 1970. But her success was the most phenomenal ever, considering that she won 19 of 22 entered, winning 126 of 129 matches (.977), never worse than finalist.

Helen Wills did some great things it seems. However, how truly great were they? Who were her chief rivals? How often did they meet each other?

 

[BTURNER]

1. Graf 2. Wills 3. Court 4 Navratilova 5 Evert 6 Lenglen 7 Connolly 8. Henin 9. S Williams 10 King

 

[BTURNER]

NAVRATILOVA entered 15 slams held on either har true clay or red clay in her career. She only won 2 out of 5 finals . That's a very suspect record for someone as the GOAT rather than a fast court specialist. Its not as though her closet is stuffed with german or italians either.

 

[drakulie]

1. Graf
2. Navratilova
3. Wills Moody
4. Evert
5. Lenglen
6. Court
7. BJ King
8. Connolly
9. Henin
10. Seles

 

[ATPballkid]

NAVRATILOVA entered 15 slams held on either har true clay or red clay in her career. She only won 2 out of 5 finals . That's a very suspect record for someone as the GOAT rather than a fast court specialist. Its not as though her closet is stuffed with german or italians either.

Navratilova won an all-time record 9 Wimbledon singles titles.

Navratilova won an all-time record 8 WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova won an all-time record 167 WTA Tour singles titles.

Navratilova won a record 6 Wimbledon singles titles -- she got to the final round of Wimbledon in 9 consecutive years vs. 3 years in a row for Graf -- she got to the quarters or better in 20 consecutive Wimbledons vs. 10 years in a row for Graf.

Navratilova had a tremendous career with some all-time records at some of the biggest events in the world and in both singles and doubles -- and she accomplished these without a knife in the back of Evert or Graf.

 

[FedSampras]

Its not as though her closet is stuffed with german or italians either.

1) MN won the most Wimbledons
2) MN faced better competition in her slam finals (peak CE and peak SG for
several of them).
3) Graff's slam total was almost certainly padded by Seles's stabbing.
4) The simultaneous, equally glittering doubles career
5) The fact that she could still win a singles match against a top-25
player at 45.
6) The longest win streak
7) The six GSs in a row (something Graff did not accomplish).


Then again, most experts say that MN was the greatest ever, so who are we to argue...?

 

[BTURNER]

Lets try this again. You guys made a great case that Martina is far and away the GOAT on the faster surfaces. Indoor carpet (the WTA tour championships )and grass Wimbledon and the Australian. She is FANTASTIC, INCREDIBLE, UNPARALLED, BEYOND THE UNIVERSE!!!! As a matter of fact out of her 18 singles slams 11 were on grass. Now that we got that out of the way, lets talk about the hard courts and clay courts, the other half of the equation. She has the 4 US opens credible but not awe inspiring for GOAT and the miserly, pathetic, pitiable two RG. Don't dodge and weave. Talk CLAY. Court can talk clay with her 5 RG, Wills can talk clay with her four. As for Evert and Graf... Talk up Navrailova's credentials on the slow stuff.

 

[BTURNER]

While Wills and Court never won slams on hard courts, as there weren't any, they sure showed they were dominating the slow courts for longer than 1 or two years. Navratilova never met that burden beyond that 1984 phenominal year.

 

[boredone3456]

1. Navratilova- no explanation needed
2. Court- her record in singles slams speaks for itself
3. Graf- if she hadn't had so many injuries....she could have won more
4. Evert- 18 slams, and a steely baseline game....but martine stopped her cold
5. Connolly- if she had not been hurt....she would have achieved so much...maybe more than martina did.....
6. Wills- greatest of the 30's....but the game was so different then that I cant rank her any higher
7. King- so consistant even into her thirties
8. Lenglen- Her dominance in the 20's is amazing
9. Seles- if she hadnt gotten hurt....who knows what she really could have been, but her game was amazing
10. Henin- she will win more slams....but I doubt she will get any higher on my list

 

[rogerfederer26]

Then again, most experts say that MN was the greatest ever, so who are we to argue...?

Navratilova who won more matches and more titles than any other woman (or man) in the history of the game. Also Navratilova scored her victories in the same era as other the other great champion of woman's tennis Chris Evert who gets my title as the second greatest player of all time.

Steffi has won more majors than either Navratilova or Evert but throughout her triumphant years Steffi Graf had no serious competitor except perhaps Monica Seles before a stabbing injury which effecively ended her career.

 

[rogerfederer26]

Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ...

Monica Seles -at her prime - was better than Graf ever was.

 

[drakulie]

Monica Seles -at her prime - was better than Graf ever was.

If this was the case, then she would have won a few Wimbledons, which she didn't.

 

[Deleted member 21996]

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Evert
4. Lenglen
5. Court
6. Graf
7. BJ King
8. Seles
9. Connolly
10. Hingis, Serena

Is it me or you were claiming that seles was greater player than graf on the The Graf / Seles Debate ... Combined / Continuing Threads thread?
just a coherence query? nothing special...

 

[Azzurri]

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Evert
4. Lenglen
5. Court
6. Graf
7. BJ King
8. Seles
9. Connolly
10. Hingis, Serena

While ranking players garners some intense debates, they are worthless and a waste of time. You have never seen Lenglen (and most likely Evert, Moddy and a host of others on your list) play. How can you possibly rank them? Based on what? That's like me ranking the top ten cereals and never eating 5-6 of them....makes no sense.

Why don't you give us a list of the top 10 you have SEEN play (not on Youtube). That way any argument someone has with you has some vailidity.

 

[ATPballkid]

She has the 4 US opens credible but not awe inspiring for GOAT and the miserly, pathetic, pitiable two RG. Don't dodge and weave. Talk CLAY. Court can talk clay with her 5 RG, Wills can talk clay with her four. As for Evert and Graf... Talk up Navrailova's credentials on the slow stuff.

Navratilova has the ALL-TIME RECORD for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis. Graf has no ALL-TIME RECORDS at any of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Graf has better balance in her record because she was the beneficiary of the Monica Seles stabbing.

Graf may have won more U.S. Open singles titles than Navratilova, but this hardly means that Graf was better at this event than Navratilova ... Navratilova had a 4-1 record at the U.S. Open vs. Graf (including their only Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s).

 

[Kaptain Karl]

<Mod Mode> If this thread degrades into yet another Graf / Seles / Stabbing debate, it will simply be merged with that monsterous thread ... like many others have. </Mod Mode>

- KK

 

[ATPballkid]

Navratilova who won more matches and more titles than any other woman (or man) in the history of the game. Also Navratilova scored her victories in the same era as other the other great champion of woman's tennis Chris Evert who gets my title as the second greatest player of all time.

Steffi has won more majors than either Navratilova or Evert but throughout her triumphant years Steffi Graf had no serious competitor except perhaps Monica Seles before a stabbing injury which effecively ended her career.

Graf has won no all-time records that span more than 35 years.

Navratilova

All-time tops in # of Wimbledon singles titles.
All-time tops with BJK at titles from Wimbledon (S/D/MXD).
All-time tops in # of women's singles titles.
All-time tops in # of women's doubles titles.
All-time tops in # of women's singles and doubles titles.
All-time tops in WTA Tour Championships.
All-time tops in single season winning percentage.

Evert

All-time tops in # of French singles titles.
All-time tops in # of clay court Grand Slam singles titles.
All-time tops in consecutive years in Grand Slam finals.
All-time tops in winning percentage on clay since Wills Moody.
All-time tops in winning percentage at the U.S. Open.
All-time tops in winning percentage at the French Open.

Graf

Most weeks at #1 in women's tennis (since 1975).
Most hardcourt Slams in women's tennis (since 1978 ).
Most U.S. Open singles titles on hardcourts (since 1978 ).


There just really isn't much Graf can point to in terms of all-time records.

Navratilova won more Wimbledons ..
Evert won more U.S. Opens and more French Opens ..
Court won more Australian Opens ..
Wills Moody won more Wimbledon & U.S. Opens combined.


Graf could pull out the "at least 4 titles at all of the Grand Slam events trick" ... but that's her best bet because most of the top players skipped out

 

[rogerfederer26]

Graf has won no all-time records that span more than 35 years.

Navratilova

All-time tops in # of Wimbledon singles titles.
All-time tops with BJK at titles from Wimbledon (S/D/MXD).
All-time tops in # of women's singles titles.
All-time tops in # of women's doubles titles.
All-time tops in # of women's singles and doubles titles.
All-time tops in WTA Tour Championships.
All-time tops in single season winning percentage.

Martina is the greatest tennis player of all time. She won an astounding 59 Grand Slam titles in Women's Singles (18), Women's Doubles (31) and Mixed Doubles (10). Despite playing in an era with greats like Evert, Graf, Monica Seles and Billie Jean King, Navratilova set a record winning 74 matches in a row. Navratilova played an amazingly long career only retiring last year at Wimbledon just a month shy of her 50th birthday. Most of her opponents and even some of their parents were not even born when Navratilova was winning tournaments.

 

[Wuornos]

Deleted as found unuseful by board members.

 

[CEvertFan]

Mine would be (Open Era only and yes I've seen them all):

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Graf
4. Court

These 4 women all have a legitimate claim on being the best women player ever and IMO they are the 4 best to have ever played the game.

5. King
6. Seles
7. Goolagong
8. S. Williams
9. Henin
10. Sanchez-Vicario or Hingis or maybe even V. Williams - I would personally go with Sanchez-Vicario.

Honorable mention would go to Tracy Austin - a very formidable player with a career cut too short by injuries.


I would put Lenglen, Wills and Connolly in a separate category as the three best pre Open Era women.

 

[grafrules]

8. S. Williams
9. Henin
10. Sanchez-Vicario or Hingis or maybe even V. Williams - I would personally go with Sanchez-Vicario.

Honorable mention would go to Tracy Austin - a very formidable player with a career cut too short by injuries.

I agree with ranking Serena and Henin both over Venus, at this point anyway. I also agree with Sanchez probably over Hingis and Venus for one main reason. Sanchez Vicario definitely maxed out her potential, the other two for differing reasons really did not, especialy Venus (yeah she is still playing but she wont).

 

[HeadPrestige]

If this was the case, then she would have won a few Wimbledons, which she didn't.

.... its called getting stabbed... thats a pretty good reason to not win wimby.

Obviously graf's record is better than seles... but i wonder what would have happened.

 

[chaognosis]

While ranking players garners some intense debates, they are worthless and a waste of time. You have never seen Lenglen (and most likely Evert, Moddy and a host of others on your list) play. How can you possibly rank them? Based on what? That's like me ranking the top ten cereals and never eating 5-6 of them....makes no sense.

Why don't you give us a list of the top 10 you have SEEN play (not on Youtube). That way any argument someone has with you has some vailidity.

I disagree (though I'm a little scared that I'm defending ATPballkid...). If you're going to rank players--which I agree is a somewhat trivial exercise, though I do it all the time--then you do it based on achievements, not based on personal subjective impressions. That's what history is for. The great players should not be forgotten. It would be a shame if nobody talked about Tilden, Laver, Borg, etc., (not to mention Ruth, Chamberlain, Ali, etc.) just because they were too young to have seen them and were too lazy to read about them. Rather than restrict our conversations to the last 10-20 years, it's important to put the current crop of stars in perspective. Sampras and Federer never "saw" Laver play (as you mean it), but they sure as hell respect him and rank him at or near the top.

 

[soyizgood]

Evert should be #1.

* 18 majors, including a record 7 French Opens
* 125 match win streak on clay
* 13 STRAIGHT years of winning at least 1 major
* 90% career win percentage
* 52 out of 56 times she reached at least the semi-finals of a major (that's just unreal)
* her success practically jump-started the rise of the two-handed backhand for both women and men (sorry Connors and Borg)

I could probably find more stuff to back up that claim, but she deserves #1 with Navratilova as #2. They formed the greatest rivalry ever as 60 of their 80 head-to-head matches were in finals.

 

[Kaptain Karl]

I don't think it's legitimate for me to rank the players I never saw. These are the players I *did* see ... multiple times and during their primes.

1 ... Navratilova
2 ... Court
3 ... Graf
4 ... Evert
5 ... King
6 ... Serena Williams
7 ... Goolagong
8 ... Henin (with a bullet)
9 ... Hingis
10 ... Venus Williams

- KK

 

[CEvertFan]

Evert should be #1.

* 18 majors, including a record 7 French Opens
* 125 match win streak on clay
* 13 STRAIGHT years of winning at least 1 major
* 90% career win percentage
* 52 out of 56 times she reached at least the semi-finals of a major (that's just unreal)
* her success practically jump-started the rise of the two-handed backhand for both women and men (sorry Connors and Borg)

I could probably find more stuff to back up that claim, but she deserves #1 with Navratilova as #2. They formed the greatest rivalry ever as 60 of their 80 head-to-head matches were in finals.

Evert is by far my most favorite woman player and I would love to agree with you BUT Chris lost too many Grand Slam finals to Navratilova for me to rank her over Martina. If Evert had won even one of those Wimbledon or US Open finals in the 80s then I would seriously consider giving the top spot to Evert, but as it stands I have to go with Navratilova even though Evert does have a legitimate claim of her own to be considered the best ever as you pointed out. Also their rivalry stands at 80 matches with Martina winning 43 and Evert winning 37, even though Evert led in the rivalry until the mid 80s. There is no denying that they had the greatest rivalry in tennis history and probably in sports history period.

In actuality you could argue that any one of the top 4 women (Navratilova, Evert, Graf and Court) all have legitimate claims of their own to be considered the best ever.

 

[hoodjem]

1. Navratilova
2. Wills Moody
3. Evert
4. Lenglen
5. Court
6. Graf
7. BJ King
8. Seles
9. Connolly
10. Hingis, Serena

Good list. Court needs to be higher:

Court won a record 62 Grand Slam titles, including a record 24 singles titles, 19 women's doubles titles, and a record 19 mixed doubles titles. She won 64 Grand Slam titles, including 21 mixed doubles titles, if the shared championships at the Australian Championships/Open in 1965 and 1969 are counted.

Court is the only player to have won the calendar year Grand Slam in both singles and mixed doubles. She won the singles slam in 1970, the mixed doubles slam in 1963 with fellow Australian Ken Fletcher, and the mixed doubles slam in 1965 with three different partners (Fletcher, John Newcombe, and Fred Stolle).

Court won more than half of the Grand Slam singles tournaments she played (24 of 47). Her career singles win-loss record was 1,167-105, for a winning percentage of 91.75 percent.

91.75% wins--hard to believe.

 

[grafrules]

The reason Court is put below Navratilova, Graf, Evert, and possibly 1 or 2 others (particularly if you include the early era greats like Lenglen, Wills, Connoly) is how much of her success was at the Australian Open which was not even considered a real slam back then by anyone, including the players themselves. Of course Court is a truly great player, and her achievements are still outstanding, but that is the reason quite a few dont put her higher.

As for the doubles aspect, well that is dependent on how much one values that. For someone who puts an extreme value on doubles as well as singles, and really values balanced excellence across each, then Navratilova and Court would clearly be the top 2 players of all time. For someone who tends to keep singles and doubles mostly seperate it wouldnt be as significant. That aspect is mostly opinion based.

 

[CEvertFan]

The reason Court is put below Navratilova, Graf, Evert, and possibly 1 or 2 others (particularly if you include the early era greats like Lenglen, Wills, Connoly) is how much of her success was at the Australian Open which was not even considered a real slam back then by anyone, including the players themselves. Of course Court is a truly great player, and her achievements are still outstanding, but that is the reason quite a few dont put her higher.

As for the doubles aspect, well that is dependent on how much one values that. For someone who puts an extreme value on doubles as well as singles, and really values balanced excellence across each, then Navratilova and Court would clearly be the top 2 players of all time. For someone who tends to keep singles and doubles mostly seperate it wouldnt be as significant. That aspect is mostly opinion based.

I couldn't have said it better myself and I completely agree with you.

 

[DomStar7]

ivanovic will one day join the ranks !

 

[hoodjem]

As for the doubles aspect, well that is dependent on how much one values that. For someone who puts an extreme value on doubles as well as singles, and really values balanced excellence across each, then Navratilova and Court would clearly be the top 2 players of all time. For someone who tends to keep singles and doubles mostly seperate it wouldnt be as significant. That aspect is mostly opinion based.

I partially agree: if there is little doubles play then leave it out. As in Fed or Sampras or Agassi (in the men's game). Then one is speaking of the GSPOAT.

But if one is speaking of the GOAT, and the player did put enegies into doubles and did well at doubles (e.g. Navratilova, Court, MacEnroe, Newcombe) then it MUST be factored in in order to be comprehensive.

I don't put "an extreme" value on doubles, but I do believe that to leave it out is to be unfairly selective or to "cherry-pick" the evidence. It should therefore be included.

I truly agree with your second statement that Martina and Court are to be considered the two greatest--if one values comprehensive, conistent logic.

 

[Wuornos]

I agree with ranking Serena and Henin both over Venus, at this point anyway. I also agree with Sanchez probably over Hingis and Venus for one main reason. Sanchez Vicario definitely maxed out her potential, the other two for differing reasons really did not, especialy Venus (yeah she is still playing but she wont).

Glad to see that you rank Arantxa Sanchez up their. I alays feel that she is underrated by most having only won 4 majors, but she lost finals five times to Graf and twice to Seles both of whom most agree as greats of the game.

If it wasn't for the peak of her playing career clashing with these two greats her major count would have been much higher.

Personally I include both Sanchez and Hingis at the expense of Henin. Although Henin is still slugging away so she may yet persuade me to include her in my top 10 at the expense of Hingis.

Still an amazing correlation between your top 10, cevertfan top 10 and my choices.

Take care

Tim

 

[Wuornos]

ivanovic will one day join the ranks !

Ah yes possibly, but a long way to go yet.

Personally I feel Sharapova currently has a greater chance of joining the esteemed company.

Regards

Tim

 

[hoodjem]

Yep, she completely dominated at the 2008 AO.

 

[BTURNER]

Navratilova who won more matches and more titles than any other woman (or man) in the history of the game. Also Navratilova scored her victories in the same era as other the other great champion of woman's tennis Chris Evert who gets my title as the second greatest player of all time.

Steffi has won more majors than either Navratilova or Evert but throughout her triumphant years Steffi Graf had no serious competitor except perhaps Monica Seles before a stabbing injury which effecively ended her career.

I never bought into this argument that the lack of competitive scores and matches in major events reflected poorly on the competitive level of the time . Instead it suggests how seriously the champion of the day took her opponents day in/day out in minor matches, early rounds, smaller events,exhibitions etc. Those are the matches that give lesser women the confidence that they can really challenge the number one. The psychological impact of 6-1, 6-2 scores round after round, tournament after tournament tells us how mentally strong the champion is, while simultaniously crippling gifted and talented challengers BEFORE THEY BECOME REAL COMPETITORS. And killing the spirit of possible threats through that intimidation factor is part of being a great player for a long time. I believed it played a part in Evert's record on clay for so long, Navrtilova's great run at Wimbledon wins , and Graf' great record. A few losses to talented players, or even close matches would have altered history. Great champions deny a sense of competition in their opponents. Give them the credit for crushing, rather than just winning.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Graf Must be above both Navratilova and Evert in the list of the top 10 women singles players of all time since she won 4 more slams than them. None of Everts or Navratilovas's streaks etc can make up for those 4 extra slams.

Then there can be a seperate list of best players including all of their doubles and mixed doubles achievements. In this list some good doubles players may jump over some better singles players.

 

[BTURNER]

Graf's legitimacy means every players's legitimacy

I've posted this before but not gotten a response. No one told the players that the slams were canceled due to Seles' injury before they trained, sweated and fought for those titles from 1993-1995. No one told Sanchez, Martinez or Pierce their results would be suspect. What about those who got to the finals/ semis because Seles quarter, half of the draw opened up? This includes Fernandez, Novotna, and Navratilova's last final. Are their efforts and career high points worthy of Asteriks or just Graf's? No one told the press or the sponsors who bought time ,or the fans who bought tickets that Wimbledon, RG, USOpen and Australian were now minor tour events. None of us were told that without Seles to compete, they were only worth, say 1/2 or 3/4ths a slam! No, the tournaments and players went foreword with exactly the same seedings, exactly the same process as if Seles had had a car accident or a court injury with NO measurable difference in behavior and therefore result because it was a stabbing. The women kept dreaming, working and preparing to be able to say they were a semifinalist, a finalist or a winner of one of the most prestigious honors in their sport. The only true distinction that may have affected results was AFTER she came back retaining her ranking which she would otherwise have had to earn. You can not selectivley dismiss Graf's achievements in these slams, only Graf's achievements, and do it retroactively. If we did not mean them to be slams, we should have canceled them or not given the winners trophies and honor, we meant to minimize later!

 

[rolandg]

I've posted this before but not gotten a response. No one told the players that the slams were canceled due to Seles' injury before they trained, sweated and fought for those titles from 1993-1995. No one told Sanchez, Martinez or Pierce their results would be suspect. What about those who got to the finals/ semis because Seles quarter, half of the draw opened up? This includes Fernandez, Novotna, and Navratilova's last final. Are their efforts and career high points worthy of Asteriks or just Graf's? No one told the press or the sponsors who bought time ,or the fans who bought tickets that Wimbledon, RG, USOpen and Australian were now minor tour events. None of us were told that without Seles to compete, they were only worth, say 1/2 or 3/4ths a slam! No, the tournaments and players went foreword with exactly the same seedings, exactly the same process as if Seles had had a car accident or a court injury with NO measurable difference in behavior and therefore result because it was a stabbing. The women kept dreaming, working and preparing to be able to say they were a semifinalist, a finalist or a winner of one of the most prestigious honors in their sport. The only true distinction that may have affected results was AFTER she came back retaining her ranking which she would otherwise have had to earn. You can not selectivley dismiss Graf's achievements in these slams, only Graf's achievements, and do it retroactively. If we did not mean them to be slams, we should have canceled them or not given the winners trophies and honor, we meant to minimize later!

Are you joking? That's all we were told. Everybody's achievements during that time were achieved with a question mark, at every slam commentators reminded us that Seles wasn't there, I remember Navratilova acknowleding when she got back up to no 2 (or it may have been no 3) in 1993 that she wouldn't be there if Seles was around, sponsors were wary of sponsoring a lot of the events because Seles and Capriati weren't there. I remember after Sanchez Vicario won the French and US and after Pierce won the Australian, commentators in the UK were debating whether they would have been able to beat Seles, and Pierce said on Seles' return that she was hoping to prove herself against her. At the time, everybody was banging on about Seles. It wasn't fair, but that's what happened.

 

[Arafel]

Graf Must be above both Navratilova and Evert in the list of the top 10 women singles players of all time since she won 4 more slams than them. None of Everts or Navratilovas's streaks etc can make up for those 4 extra slams.

Then there can be a seperate list of best players including all of their doubles and mixed doubles achievements. In this list some good doubles players may jump over some better singles players.

Um, no. Your absolutist assertion that four more Slams means that Graf must be above both Navratilova and Evert overlooks one important fact:

Evert and Navratilova often had to play each other to win their Slams.

Their careers overlapped for almost their ENTIRE careers. Between 78-86, of the 36 Slams, Evert or Navartilova won 31 of them. What that tells me is that the two best players ever in the women's game had their incredible Slam numbers when they had to play each other.

Graf had to content with Seles for 2.5 years, and then no one else.

Graf is third behind Navratilova and Evert, still a great player, one of the all-time best, but not THE best.

 

[boredone3456]

Um, no. Your absolutist assertion that four more Slams means that Graf must be above both Navratilova and Evert overlooks one important fact:

Evert and Navratilova often had to play each other to win their Slams.

Their careers overlapped for almost their ENTIRE careers. Between 78-86, of the 36 Slams, Evert or Navartilova won 31 of them. What that tells me is that the two best players ever in the women's game had their incredible Slam numbers when they had to play each other.

Graf had to content with Seles for 2.5 years, and then no one else.

Graf is third behind Navratilova and Evert, still a great player, one of the all-time best, but not THE best.

EXACTLY if Evert or Navratilova had never played the game...the other would have more than likely dominated the game during that time and won more slams than graf did. and since Graf's main competition during her career points were an aging evert and navratilova in the 80's...and after the early 90's sanchez vicario and young upstarters with issues like capriati and hingis. the one point in her career where she had someone of equality was against seles...and we all know how she fared against her outside of wimbledon. Graf was an amazing player...but was helped by a number of things (and I am not just talking about the stabbing....we have beat that horse enough around here). Graf was good...but Evert and Navratilova will always be above her.

 

[thalivest]

1. Steffi Graf
2. Margaret Court
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Suzanne Lenglen
5. Chris Evert
6. Helen Wills Moody
7. Maureen Connoly
8. Serena Williams
9. Billie Jean King
10. Monica Seles

As for Evert and Navratilova, if the other did not exist either would have won more slams then 18 for sure but her competition would also have been even more of a joke then Graf's was in that case.

 

[NikeWilson]

1) Graf
2) Navratilova
3) Evert

*)Seles
*)Serena
*)Sanchez-Vicario
*)Capriati