USTA disqualification

S

Steve Huff

G.O.A.T.
Our captain's son played singles this year for our 4.0 team. He's a HS guy and a good 4.0. He was 3-0, so they disqualified him, made him a 4.5, and we forfeited all his matches. Not all of his matches were blowouts. Plus, just because he started 3-0 doesn't mean he'd finish undefeated. He hadn't played the best team we played due to a foot injury, and many of the better teams were in the latter part of the season. Sure, he could probably beat some 4.5 players, but he'd lose to a lot more 4.0 players too. The 4.0 players that went to nationals would probably shut him out. He's 18, a good athlete, hits hard, etc, but takes no lessons and has pretty much taught himself. What's with the USTA? Each year, I seem to hate them more. Plus, our team was only 2-2 with him. Now, we got moved down to 0-2-2.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Steve Huff said:
Our captain's son played singles this year for our 4.0 team. He's a HS guy and a good 4.0. He was 3-0, so they disqualified him, made him a 4.5, and we forfeited all his matches. Not all of his matches were blowouts. Plus, just because he started 3-0 doesn't mean he'd finish undefeated. He hadn't played the best team we played due to a foot injury, and many of the better teams were in the latter part of the season. Sure, he could probably beat some 4.5 players, but he'd lose to a lot more 4.0 players too. The 4.0 players that went to nationals would probably shut him out. He's 18, a good athlete, hits hard, etc, but takes no lessons and has pretty much taught himself. What's with the USTA? Each year, I seem to hate them more. Plus, our team was only 2-2 with him. Now, we got moved down to 0-2-2.
Click to expand...

It's all a computer algorithm. Apparently, the guys he beat had relatively high 4.0 computer ratings.
 
goober

goober

Legend
Steve Huff said:
Our captain's son played singles this year for our 4.0 team. He's a HS guy and a good 4.0. He was 3-0, so they disqualified him, made him a 4.5, and we forfeited all his matches. Not all of his matches were blowouts. Plus, just because he started 3-0 doesn't mean he'd finish undefeated. He hadn't played the best team we played due to a foot injury, and many of the better teams were in the latter part of the season. Sure, he could probably beat some 4.5 players, but he'd lose to a lot more 4.0 players too. The 4.0 players that went to nationals would probably shut him out. He's 18, a good athlete, hits hard, etc, but takes no lessons and has pretty much taught himself. What's with the USTA? Each year, I seem to hate them more. Plus, our team was only 2-2 with him. Now, we got moved down to 0-2-2.
Click to expand...

Well you should know by now if you bring a self rated player and they win their first 3 matches they are at pretty high risk for a DQ. You say not all the matches were blow outs. Well so 1 or 2 of them were? The other might have been a closer match but against a higher rated 4.0 which would have been another strike. If you want to bring a ringer, uh I mean strong player and play straight up without throwing games, you should have played him in dubs and then put him in singles in the later part of the season.
 
A

andfor

Legend
goober said:
Well you should know by now if you bring a self rated player and they win their first 3 matches they are at pretty high risk for a DQ. You say not all the matches were blow outs. Well so 1 or 2 of them were? The other might have been a closer match but against a higher rated 4.0 which would have been another strike. If you want to bring a ringer, uh I mean strong player and play straight up without throwing games, you should have played him in dubs and then put him in singles in the later part of the season.
Click to expand...

Right. It does seem that doubles players get moved up at a lesser rate than singles players.
 
K

Kostas

Semi-Pro
lol @ 5.6k posts and complaining about a DQ of a self-rate player that you admit could beat people at the next level.

It's amazing to me how many times this happens and people think they've been screwed.
 
film1

film1

Semi-Pro
We just had a player get dq'd who was about 4-1. It's strange because he lost a singles match to a computer rated player that could have given us a team win.
Obvioulsy a lot of players have needed to get bumped but you don't have to look far to see some ridiculas examples of unfair treetment.
I know they don't have the resources to look real close at every individual situation but some close calls should be investigated, the particiants deserve it and the communication is flat out awful.
It's not just one thing with the USTA or even ten things, it's been run poorly since the 80s.
I think I could run the thing better from the jungle with cell phone, a few legal pad and some pens.

They need to clean house at the top, find a leader who is smart and knows how to delegate and tell some of the people who have been around forever to step down or force them out.
In a nut shell, the USTA leadership has been lame and incompetent and it trickles down to courts all accross the USA.
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
Steve Huff said:
Our captain's son played singles this year for our 4.0 team. He's a HS guy and a good 4.0. He was 3-0, so they disqualified him, made him a 4.5, and we forfeited all his matches. Not all of his matches were blowouts. Plus, just because he started 3-0 doesn't mean he'd finish undefeated. He hadn't played the best team we played due to a foot injury, and many of the better teams were in the latter part of the season. Sure, he could probably beat some 4.5 players, but he'd lose to a lot more 4.0 players too. The 4.0 players that went to nationals would probably shut him out. He's 18, a good athlete, hits hard, etc, but takes no lessons and has pretty much taught himself. What's with the USTA? Each year, I seem to hate them more. Plus, our team was only 2-2 with him. Now, we got moved down to 0-2-2.
Click to expand...

He self-rated, came out and won his first 3 matches in singles (which evidently earned him a strike for each one), and got bumped.

Sorry, but there is no mystery here. As goober explained, self-rated players are the ones at risk for this. The 4.0 players that went to nationals are most likely 4.5s this season...think about it. That's why this rule is there, to keep things like self-rated ringers from running rampant.

film1 said:
We just had a player get dq'd who was about 4-1. It's strange because he lost a singles match to a computer rated player that could have given us a team win.
Obvioulsy a lot of players have needed to get bumped but you don't have to look far to see some ridiculas examples of unfair treetment.
I know they don't have the resources to look real close at every individual situation but some close calls should be investigated, the particiants deserve it and the communication is flat out awful.
It's not just one thing with the USTA or even ten things, it's been run poorly since the 80s.
I think I could run the thing better from the jungle with cell phone, a few legal pad and some pens.

They need to clean house at the top, find a leader who is smart and knows how to delegate and tell some of the people who have been around forever to step down or force them out.
In a nut shell, the USTA leadership has been lame and incompetent and it trickles down to courts all accross the USA.
Click to expand...

The system is not ever going to be perfect in each and every case. That is why there are appeals. And seriously...do you honestly think this is the fault of USTA leadership?

Would these rules even be needed if so many hadn't tried to cheat and manipulate the system? Why not blame them?
 
B

bodieq

Rookie
Kostas said:
lol @ 5.6k posts and complaining about a DQ of a self-rate player that you admit could beat people at the next level.

It's amazing to me how many times this happens and people think they've been screwed.
Click to expand...

Very good observation/comment!
 
D

Delano

Rookie
Well, it sounds like the problem is that they guy was self-rated. If he'd been a computer rated 4.0, he wouldn't have been bumped up mid-season with his wins reversed. So you're right, there are other 4.0s who are beating similar opponents by equal or greater margins and still aren't getting bumped up.

It seems unfair, but in general, I think self rated players should be treated differently by the system from computer rated players. A guy who gets his ass kicked at 4.0, slowly learns to win, and, over the course of a few years, goes from a weak 4.0 to a dominant 4.0 should get to finish out the season and enjoy a winning streak even though he's "really" a 4.5 at this point. I'm ok with that. I'm not ok with someone who tanks matches late in the season to keep a 4.0 rating, but someone has just improved a lot and is on his/her way up, that's in the spirit of the league.

In this context, I do think a new player who is a weak 4.5 should play 4.5, even though a similarly skilled player who has been involved in the league for a while gets to stay at 4.0 for one last season.

Unfortunately, it also sounds like your captain didn't really know how to play the game. A self rated player who is kicking ass is a risk to the team, and captains who know how to manipulate the rules would have sidelined him before the third strike. This is why I'm generally not all that critical of players or captains who get caught in the DQ. The fact that they were busted, to me, suggests that they somewhat unaware of what they were doing, and *weren't* sophisticated sandbaggers.
 
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S

spot

Hall of Fame
This is going to lead to people throwing matches to avoid getting bumped....
Click to expand...

Of course it will. Stick them at 3 doubles and once your team takes 3 points for the team win you literally don't lose anything by having that guy lose the match. Of course this happens.
 
beernutz

beernutz

Hall of Fame
Topaz said:
The 4.0 players that went to nationals are most likely 4.5s this season...think about it. That's why this rule is there, to keep things like self-rated ringers from running rampant
Manhattan Captain said:
Not true this year.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

In short, bullcarp.

Here are the 4.0 players who won Nationals in 2009 along with their current rating. This was publicly available information from the USTA website.

Adam Kolenberg (Bellmore, NY), 4.5
Daniel Calhoun (Floral Park, NY), 4.5
Chris Colesanti (Massapequa, NY), 4.5
Scott Simon (Woodbury, NY), 4.5
Raul Narciso (Westbury, NY), 4.5
Robert Block (Oceanside, NY), 4.5
Russell Baier (Long Beach, NY), 4.5
James Italia (Floral Park, NY), not found in TennisLink - EDIT: found in TennisLink as James Dell Italia, also 4.5
Ignacio Arenas (New York, NY), 4.5
 
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ChipNCharge

ChipNCharge

Professional
spot said:
...once your team takes 3 points for the team win you literally don't lose anything by having that guy lose the match..
Click to expand...

...unless there's a tie in the league standings and the number of lines lost becomes the determining factor.
 
goober

goober

Legend
ChipNCharge said:
When will people learn that line number doesn't mean anything in USTA league tennis??
Click to expand...

Well certainly the USTA says line number doesn't mean anything. But if a large number of teams play their lines in order of strength than the reality is line number does mean something despite what the USTA guidelines states.

This has been discussed before, but if the USTA truly wanted to get out of teams having this frame of thought, which is very widespread, they should change the names and call the lines something like colors or shapes instead of #1, #2, ect.
 
Topaz

Topaz

Legend
beernutz said:
In short, bullcarp.

Here are the 4.0 players who won Nationals in 2009 along with their current rating. This was publicly available information from the USTA website.

Adam Kolenberg (Bellmore, NY), 4.5
Daniel Calhoun (Floral Park, NY), 4.5
Chris Colesanti (Massapequa, NY), 4.5
Scott Simon (Woodbury, NY), 4.5
Raul Narciso (Westbury, NY), 4.5
Robert Block (Oceanside, NY), 4.5
Russell Baier (Long Beach, NY), 4.5
James Italia (Floral Park, NY), not found in TennisLink
Ignacio Arenas (New York, NY), 4.5
Click to expand...

Well now, lookie at that! ;)
 
B

brad1730

Rookie
ChipNCharge said:
When will people learn that line number doesn't mean anything in USTA league tennis??
Click to expand...

Maybe it means a little... guys in #3 doubles probably don't have a high NTRP rating, so a double bagel beatdown to those guys may not be as bad for a sandbagger as win over a top-rated #1 singles player.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
ChipNCharge said:
Why would their NTRP be lower?
Click to expand...

Even though it is not required, I think teams still generally go strong to weak in their lineup, unless there is a reason not to.

I've seen some people talk about leagues ono here where more points are awarded for higher lines. In that case, for sure, you're going to have weaker people in the lower lines.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
brad1730 said:
Maybe it means a little... guys in #3 doubles probably don't have a high NTRP rating, so a double bagel beatdown to those guys may not be as bad for a sandbagger as win over a top-rated #1 singles player.
Click to expand...

This is especially true if you partner them with a highly rated person on your own team.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
We have a self rated guy who is really good. He had never played USTA before, and our captain played in a social doubles match with him, saw he was pretty good, and told him to self-rate and join the team. As the #1 singles player on the team, I set up a match with him to gauge where he would fit into the lineup and he kicked my ass all over the court. He's clearly misrated, but it wasn't anything intentionally underhanded, it's just that he had never played USTA before. We're just going to play him #1 singles since he is our best player, and if he gets DQ'd, then so be it, I'll give him the contact info for the 4.5 captain at the club. He won his first match 6-0 6-2 against a 3.5 bumpee, so I don't know if that will qualify as a strike or not.
 
Manhattan Captain

Manhattan Captain

New User
beernutz said:
In short, bullcarp.

Here are the 4.0 players who won Nationals in 2009 along with their current rating. This was publicly available information from the USTA website.

Adam Kolenberg (Bellmore, NY), 4.5
Daniel Calhoun (Floral Park, NY), 4.5
Chris Colesanti (Massapequa, NY), 4.5
Scott Simon (Woodbury, NY), 4.5
Raul Narciso (Westbury, NY), 4.5
Robert Block (Oceanside, NY), 4.5
Russell Baier (Long Beach, NY), 4.5
James Italia (Floral Park, NY), not found in TennisLink - EDIT: found in TennisLink as James Dell Italia, also 4.5
Ignacio Arenas (New York, NY), 4.5
Click to expand...

Right.

Now check the 2008 NY team.
 
B

BustedString

Rookie
film1 said:
They need to clean house at the top, find a leader who is smart and knows how to delegate and tell some of the people who have been around forever to step down or force them out.
In a nut shell, the USTA leadership has been lame and incompetent and it trickles down to courts all accross the USA.
Click to expand...

DQ's are almost always the result of a computer algorithm. I honestly think that the vast majority of USTA leaders at the Section level or above are indeed committed to growing the game and fair play. Unfortunately, people keep figuring out how to beat the system so they keep having to revamp the rules to try and level the playing field.
 
B

BustedString

Rookie
beernutz said:
In short, bullcarp.

Here are the 4.0 players who won Nationals in 2009 along with their current rating. This was publicly available information from the USTA website.

Adam Kolenberg (Bellmore, NY), 4.5
Daniel Calhoun (Floral Park, NY), 4.5
Chris Colesanti (Massapequa, NY), 4.5
Scott Simon (Woodbury, NY), 4.5
Raul Narciso (Westbury, NY), 4.5
Robert Block (Oceanside, NY), 4.5
Russell Baier (Long Beach, NY), 4.5
James Italia (Floral Park, NY), not found in TennisLink - EDIT: found in TennisLink as James Dell Italia, also 4.5
Ignacio Arenas (New York, NY), 4.5
Click to expand...
Interesting. If you look here: http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/...ts.asp?Level=M&TeamMatchID=2275179&CYear=2009

The Puerto Rico team that won 3.5 Nationals had 6 of 8 on their final roster rate up to 4.5 as well. I would have expected the 4.0 team to have some rate up to 5.0 in similar double bump fashion but I guess the algorithm didn't work that way.
 
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