USTA State Championship Rainout

[ncgator]

We unfortunately had our USTA Combo State Championships rained out this weekend after completing three of four “random play” or round robin matches. Here is the procedure used to determine the state champion in this case:

For Partial Round Robin Matches, any team with a mathematical chance of advancing to the playoff rounds will be placed into a drawing to determine the State Champion. Undefeated teams will receive a 2nd entry into the drawing.

This was definitely not a fair or equitable way to determine the state champion and for most divisions did not result in the strongest team in the division being named as state champion to represent the state at the sectional championships. For one of the divisions that had ten teams, two of the teams were 3-0, 9-0, 18-1 on matches, individual lines, and sets after 3 of 4 round robin matches. 8 of the 10 teams met the criteria for having a mathematical chance of advancing to the semifinals, so 10 balls with local league names were put in a bag (6 for teams that had a loss and 2 each for the 2 undefeated teams). The ball for a team that had a 1-2, 3-6, 9-13 record (match, lines, sets) was selected and that team was named state champion for that division. With one remaining round robin match to be played, that team was in 8th place and most certainly would not have made the top 4 to advance to the semifinals.

Does anyone have knowledge of how your state or would handle a similar situation, and determine the tournament champion who represents the state at the sectional championships?

 

[Ronaldo]

Play indoors

 

[ncgator]

No indoor courts within two hours of where the tournament was held, so that was not a viable option.

 

[Ronaldo]

No indoor courts within two hours of where the tournament was held, so that was not a viable option.

Never, ever had that problem. Also only three teams play in our state tourney

 

[LOBALOT]

It's combo anyways so does it really mater?

So many sandbaggers in combo that are too chicken to play anything but mixed dubs and combo and so never get a C rating so they would have to compete against players at their level.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

No indoor courts within two hours of where the tournament was held, so that was not a viable option.

No indoor courts within two hours? That state should have USTA tennis removed from it, complete ban I say! Was this in California or what? Who planned this?

Yeah, just ban USTA from that area, not serious about tennis.

 

[Ronaldo]

No indoor courts within two hours? That state should have USTA tennis removed from it, complete ban I say! Was this in California or what? Who planned this?

Yeah, just ban USTA from that area, not serious about tennis.

Floridian?

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Floridian?

Me? No , them, maybe?

 

[Moveforwardalways]

We unfortunately had our USTA Combo State Championships rained out this weekend after completing three of four “random play” or round robin matches. Here is the procedure used to determine the state champion in this case:

For Partial Round Robin Matches, any team with a mathematical chance of advancing to the playoff rounds will be placed into a drawing to determine the State Champion. Undefeated teams will receive a 2nd entry into the drawing.

This was definitely not a fair or equitable way to determine the state champion and for most divisions did not result in the strongest team in the division being named as state champion to represent the state at the sectional championships. For one of the divisions that had ten teams, two of the teams were 3-0, 9-0, 18-1 on matches, individual lines, and sets after 3 of 4 round robin matches. 8 of the 10 teams met the criteria for having a mathematical chance of advancing to the semifinals, so 10 balls with local league names were put in a bag (6 for teams that had a loss and 2 each for the 2 undefeated teams). The ball for a team that had a 1-2, 3-6, 9-13 record (match, lines, sets) was selected and that team was named state champion for that division. With one remaining round robin match to be played, that team was in 8th place and most certainly would not have made the top 4 to advance to the semifinals.

Does anyone have knowledge of how your state or would handle a similar situation, and determine the tournament champion who represents the state at the sectional championships?

The team with the worst record still had a chance though. There could have been upsets or a magical run. Any random chance generator has to take that into account.

 

[Ronaldo]

Me? No , them, maybe?

Florida Men?

 

[ncgator]

No indoor courts within two hours? That state should have USTA tennis removed from it, complete ban I say! Was this in California or what? Who planned this?

Yeah, just ban USTA from that area, not serious about tennis.

Wilmington, NC

 

[schmke]

The team with the worst record still had a chance though. There could have been upsets or a magical run. Any random chance generator has to take that into account.

But they were given an equal opportunity as the 5 of the others that had a better chance had it been played out, and 50% of the opportunity as the two undefeated teams that had a way better chance of making the semis.

The issue isn't the general idea of doing a draw, the issue is the number of balls the teams were all given.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Wilmington, NC

I know nothing other than looking at google maps, was this just chosen because it's literally far away from everywhere else?

 

[onehandbh]

They should have just played a 1 pt sudden death match on the wet court.

Or have arm-wrestling matches instead.

 

[stapletonj]

Isn't there an indoor center on the outer banks? Duck? Or is that more than 2 hours?

 

[ncgator]

Outer Banks is about 4 hours drive from Wilmington. Closest indoor courts are in Raleigh, about 2 hours away. Normally they will go to short sets with no ad scoring if necessary to finish the tournament, but it rained all day Saturday and Sunday, so there was no way to finish the tournament on the courts. First time this has happened in many years. NC Tennis will be revisiting and revising the rainout procedure, so just wanted to see how others handle or would handle a similar situation.

 

[Lord Of The Strings]

I was also at NC combo in Wilmington, NC and our team was fortunate to have our ball chosen in the lottery as champion. We were an undefeated team, felt we had a really good to chance to win it on the court, and still hate that this is how we were deemed "champion." I completely feel for you @ncgator b/c not all of the lotteries resulted in a champion who was the likely (or at least a contender) winner if the matches had been played. And even if so, it's not really a consolation for all the work the captains/players put into the season for it to end like this.

As far as the questions for why does combo matter, it matters b/c Southern has Combo Sectionals down in Mobile, AL and people want to play in them. Combo is pretty big in NC and in the Southern Section in general, so people want to play for a title.

NC spreads out it state championships depending on the division. Spring season is in the Charlotte area (lake norman for 18+), Mixed was in Asheville (moving to Greensboro next year), Singles in Goldsboro, Tri-Level in Kinston, Combo in Wilmington. It's a big state with big state championships...so number of courts is the priority, with indoor availability being 2nd. Plus...the cities/towns have to WANT to host b/c they bid on the tournaments. Hence why Raleigh/Durham/Cary never hosts despite having a lot of courts (and indoor availability)...they don't want to.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Everyone wants to go to Mobile to get al little side action wink wink

 

[Lord Of The Strings]

Everyone wants to go to Mobile to get al little side action wink wink

Sadly, you don't know how right you are.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Sadly, you don't know how right you are.

No sad, I'm pretty sure I know lol, I've been around Southern section for awhile. Also, I've always wondered why some players are so obsessed with post season play, a little hobby of mine to understand it, and for some, it's party time.

 

[travlerajm]

They should have just played a 1 pt sudden death match on the wet court.

Or have arm-wrestling matches instead.

I heard that’s how it’s done in our section (PNW).

 

[schmke]

But they were given an equal opportunity as the 5 of the others that had a better chance had it been played out, and 50% of the opportunity as the two undefeated teams that had a way better chance of making the semis.

The issue isn't the general idea of doing a draw, the issue is the number of balls the teams were all given.

Took a closer look.

What the OP failed to mention is that in the standings through 3 rounds, 4th place was a 1-2 team, there was a 7-way tie at 1-2. So one of these 1-2 teams was going to make the semis. That softens the shock of a 1-2 team being pulled out of the hat as the "winner" a bit.

There was one 2-1 team and the two 3-0 teams, so a somewhat more equitable way to do it would have been to put entries in the drawing based on wins, three for the two 3-0 teams, two for the 2-1 team, and one for the 1-2 teams that could mathematically still make it, or 13 total. That still gives a 5 out of 13 chance a 1-2 team would be drawn, but that is better than the 5 out of 10 that they used.

But better would have been to do at least two if not three drawings.

A first one is to determine the semi-finalists. The 3-0 teams are already in, so a drawing to determine the other two would be done using something similar to what I described above. You could give two entries to the 2-1 team and one to the 1-2 teams and draw two teams from those 7 entries.

Once the semifinalists are determined, then do one more to draw from those four for the champ, or go so far as to draw for the semis and then final. In either case, the chances of a specific 1-2 team making it would be lower and the chances of the 3-0 teams much higher, more equitable all around.

Or, they could have done my simulation to determine the weighted entries for the semis. From where the standings were/are, the chances of making the semis by just flipping a coin on each court went from 100% for the 3-0 teams to 51% for the 2-1 team down to 20% for the team that got drawn.

 

[tennis3]

Does anyone have knowledge of how your state or would handle a similar situation, and determine the tournament champion who represents the state at the sectional championships?

Wet T-shirt contest

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Wet T-shirt contest

That could be horrific, have you seen the combo teams in your area?

 

[Lord Of The Strings]

Wet T-shirt contest

Feel like calling someone a sandbagger would mean something different in this context.

 

[struggle]

Wilmington is historically a bad place to hold combos. Tail end of hurricane season, no indoor options.

UstaNC needs to quit letting them have the bid. They do a good job but can’t handle the conditions when they go bad.

This was particularly insane.

 

[kevrol]

Wilmington is historically a bad place to hold combos. Tail end of hurricane season, no indoor options.

UstaNC needs to quit letting them have the bid. They do a good job but can’t handle the conditions when they go bad.

This was particularly insane.

Problem is Wilmington and Asheville are probably the two most desirable destinations in the state.

NC Tennis was in a no win situation. No matter how they determined who would advance someone would've been mad. Perhaps not refer to the lottery winner as the champ. Just say they've won the opportunity to advance.

I do like schmke's idea about putting in 2 balls if you have 2 wins, 3 if you have 3. However if one team completed 3 matches in while others only completed 1 or 2 that's not fair either.

 

[ncgator]

Took a closer look.

What the OP failed to mention is that in the standings through 3 rounds, 4th place was a 1-2 team, there was a 7-way tie at 1-2. So one of these 1-2 teams was going to make the semis. That softens the shock of a 1-2 team being pulled out of the hat as the "winner" a bit.

There was one 2-1 team and the two 3-0 teams, so a somewhat more equitable way to do it would have been to put entries in the drawing based on wins, three for the two 3-0 teams, two for the 2-1 team, and one for the 1-2 teams that could mathematically still make it, or 13 total. That still gives a 5 out of 13 chance a 1-2 team would be drawn, but that is better than the 5 out of 10 that they used.

But better would have been to do at least two if not three drawings.

A first one is to determine the semi-finalists. The 3-0 teams are already in, so a drawing to determine the other two would be done using something similar to what I described above. You could give two entries to the 2-1 team and one to the 1-2 teams and draw two teams from those 7 entries.

Once the semifinalists are determined, then do one more to draw from those four for the champ, or go so far as to draw for the semis and then final. In either case, the chances of a specific 1-2 team making it would be lower and the chances of the 3-0 teams much higher, more equitable all around.

Or, they could have done my simulation to determine the weighted entries for the semis. From where the standings were/are, the chances of making the semis by just flipping a coin on each court went from 100% for the 3-0 teams to 51% for the 2-1 team down to 20% for the team that got drawn.

I like your suggestion on having the two drawings, one to flesh out the semifinals, then another to select the champion with

 

[struggle]

Problem is Wilmington and Asheville are probably the two most desirable destinations in the state.

NC Tennis was in a no win situation. No matter how they determined who would advance someone would've been mad. Perhaps not refer to the lottery winner as the champ. Just say they've won the opportunity to advance.

I do like schmke's idea about putting in 2 balls if you have 2 wins, 3 if you have 3. However if one team completed 3 matches in while others only completed 1 or 2 that's not fair either.

I live in AVL. We manage states( mixed, seniors) due to indoor courts (we play indoor all winter, for the most part). ILM can’t do that. I know CLT and GBO/WS also have some indoor courts.

Most other league seasons can work around, but ILM is “best of luck” scenario.

 

[kevrol]

Lots of indoor options in the Triad unfortunately I don't think players would be all that jazzed about coming to GBO/WS.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

It’s not about who has the courts or where is the most desirable destination. It’s about who will kick their regular members, paying customers, and teaching pros (who make $$ teaching on those courts) off their courts for 3-4 days while a USTA state tournament takes up every court in the area. That’s a lot of lost revenue and an unhappy tennis playing population for every person who did not make state or even care about USTA leagues. Many areas do not want this. So it becomes a matter of who will even allow these tournaments to be in their area, not a matter of who is lucky enough to get them there.

Only the teams that made combo state (1 from each area) even care where combo state gets played or how the winner gets determined. That’s really not very many people.

 

[ktx]

That has to be the reason, otherwise it makes no sense to have a state-wide tournament in a less populated, eastern coastal destination when you have the major metro areas more centrally located. Which is a bummer - the logical option to me is to encourage/incentivize more public facilities to participate in USTA tournaments for the revenue but maybe some of them just do not have the necessary amenities (like bathrooms, benches, etc)? I played a post-season tournament recently where we were not allowed to use the club facilities other than the 1 small bathroom.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

For so many club members, USTA is secondary and doesn’t factor in to their routine tennis life. No way they are closing down their club for 3 days to accommodate that.

 

[rod99]

I was also at NC combo in Wilmington, NC and our team was fortunate to have our ball chosen in the lottery as champion. We were an undefeated team, felt we had a really good to chance to win it on the court, and still hate that this is how we were deemed "champion." I completely feel for you @ncgator b/c not all of the lotteries resulted in a champion who was the likely (or at least a contender) winner if the matches had been played. And even if so, it's not really a consolation for all the work the captains/players put into the season for it to end like this.

As far as the questions for why does combo matter, it matters b/c Southern has Combo Sectionals down in Mobile, AL and people want to play in them. Combo is pretty big in NC and in the Southern Section in general, so people want to play for a title.

NC spreads out it state championships depending on the division. Spring season is in the Charlotte area (lake norman for 18+), Mixed was in Asheville (moving to Greensboro next year), Singles in Goldsboro, Tri-Level in Kinston, Combo in Wilmington. It's a big state with big state championships...so number of courts is the priority, with indoor availability being 2nd. Plus...the cities/towns have to WANT to host b/c they bid on the tournaments. Hence why Raleigh/Durham/Cary never hosts despite having a lot of courts (and indoor availability)...they don't want to.

is 2024 mixed states really moving from asheville to greensboro? that would be terrible. everyone likes going to asheville for that tournament.

 

[kevrol]

is 2024 mixed states really moving from asheville to greensboro? that would be terrible. everyone likes going to asheville for that tournament.

That's what I've heard. It's a lot of work for little reward to put on these tournaments (unless you're looking at the bigger picture, tourist dollars.) The local CTA however doesn't get much out of it.

 

[Lord Of The Strings]

is 2024 mixed states really moving from asheville to greensboro? that would be terrible. everyone likes going to asheville for that tournament.

Yeah, it is. In addition what Kevrol mentions, the other reason is b/c Asheville doesn't need the fall tourism money from the tennis community. They can fill the hotel rooms regardless without offering discount rooms for tennis players.

 

[struggle]

Asheville can’t build hotels fast enough unfortunately. I’ve enjoyed mixed being here (for many years now). I don’t mind traveling though. Actually love Wilmington (lived there for many years) but combo season doesn’t work well there (it’s risky, as we’ve seen….)

But we do have enough indoor options to deal with some bad weather.

 

[Lord Of The Strings]

They could move the combo championships up if NC didn't mess around with state championships for summer singles league. NC is the last state in the Southern section to finish Combo. Still a risk, but October tends to be historically drier than November.

 

[struggle]

Problem with wilmington in the late summer/fall is that it's still tropical storm season no matter when you try it.