'WADA goes rogue': Meldonium was a fund-raising drive!!!

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
So at least now Bart's stand is clear:

"Cash strapped" nations can keep creating drugs, and giving them to children and athletes en masse and WADA has to do all the testing to prove that the drugs are unsafe. If the manufacturer has no money to test his drugs, then it is by default safe.

Not Bart's finest moment, I think. But he'll come out with a clever deflection in moments. :)
Drugs that are introduced to the market have gone through several stages of testing and have been deemed adequately safe for usage if they pass through this.
If people get administered drugs that are hazardous, that's a legal issue beyond and regardless of WADA.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
nnw-road.jpg
 
Drugs that are introduced to the market have gone through several stages of testing and have been deemed adequately safe for usage if they pass through this.
If people get administered drugs that are hazardous, that's a legal issue beyond and regardless of WADA.
Any drug is hazardous if not administered correctly (dose, course of treatment, interactions, etc). And I really can't think of any drug that's innocuous.

It's the fact that they were giving it to children (on top of all, not for health reasons) that makes it less acceptable even.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Any drug is hazardous if not administered correctly (dose, course of treatment, interactions, etc). And I really can't think of any drug that's innocuous.

It's the fact that they were giving it to children (on top of all, not for health reasons) that makes it less acceptable even.
Anything is potentially hazardous. Pro athletic training has severe potential side-effects. Drugs that reach market have been tested and deemed appropriate for usage. For all we know meldonium might be more protective than harmful for young athletes undergoing hard training (that's the thing: I don't think you nor I know that).

Point is, however, that harmful and illegal administration of drugs is a question for the law and not WADA.
 
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Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Drugs that reach market have been tested and deemed appropriate for usage. For all we know meldonium might be more protective than harmful for young athletes undergoing hard training (that's the thing: I don't you nor I know that).
Then the drug maker should have some proof of that, as you are saying. But even the drug maker has not claimed that, as far as I have seen.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Then the drug maker should have some proof of that, as you are saying. But even the drug maker has not claimed that, as far as I have seen.

Again though, a question for medical law.

As for the exact risk/benefit relationship of the drug, I have not seen much about that, but I don't see what good our judgement or speculations around that are in the absence of hard facts.

Eta: The drug's main function is to prevent damage to cell tissue. At first thought not a bad thing for young athletes undergoing strenuous training.

double edit: the manufacturer also told the associated press that the drug protects the heart during strenuous exercise.
 
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Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Regarding all the debates about the extent to which meldonium is in fact a PED, the comments of professor of anesthesiology, Michael Joyner, might be of some interest:

Their use has “a sort of urban legend element,” Joyner said. “There is not much out there that is clearly that effective.”

He said, “I would be shocked if this stuff (meldonium) had an effect greater than, say, caffeine or creatinine (a natural substance that, when taken as a supplement, is thought to enhance muscle mass), if any effect at all.”

Adding meldonium to the prohibited list of performance-enhancing substances could have the opposite of the desired effect, at least among athletic competitors who aren’t routinely tested for doping, Joyner said. “The funny thing is the banning of the compound will likely increase its use in less-tested communities. Banning is seen as de factoproof of efficacy, even with little evidence.”
 
Let's look at the clever editing or fact twisting here by the OP.

Reading this, one would think that WADA has listed out their activities in numerical order in order of how much funding they give. According to the linked article:


So the writer (and OP) have taken a list of activities and ASSUMED that it is in order of how much funding they do.

WOW !!

This is why the OP never used to give the link when created threads, He would just quote what suited him leaving the rest out.
Bart likes to write propaganda.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Regarding all the debates about the extent to which meldonium is in fact a PED, the comments of professor of anesthesiology, Michael Joyner, might be of some interest:

Their use has “a sort of urban legend element,” Joyner said. “There is not much out there that is clearly that effective.”

He said, “I would be shocked if this stuff (meldonium) had an effect greater than, say, caffeine or creatinine (a natural substance that, when taken as a supplement, is thought to enhance muscle mass), if any effect at all.”

Adding meldonium to the prohibited list of performance-enhancing substances could have the opposite of the desired effect, at least among athletic competitors who aren’t routinely tested for doping, Joyner said. “The funny thing is the banning of the compound will likely increase its use in less-tested communities. Banning is seen as de factoproof of efficacy, even with little evidence.”

I don't mean to sound like a lawyer but since this will probably be quoted as the law by some people i know, I'd just like to point out that is is a professor of anesthesiology. Not sure how much he would know about drugs used in sports (may know more than all of us on this forum) but still, is this his field ?

Second, he says "their use" ... the sentence of urban legend sounds like a general sentence not specific to this case.

His next sentence sounds like an educated guess based on "what is out there", not on studies he has looked at.

The last para is his speculation about the market effects. So basically we are back to the first two sentences, one seems general to me, and the second also does not seem like he has studied this drug, or seen it's effect on people, or used it on athletes.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
I don't mean to sound like a lawyer but since this will probably be quoted as the law by some people i know, I'd just like to point out that is is a professor of anesthesiology. Not sure how much he would know about drugs used in sports (may know more than all of us on this forum) but still, is this his field ?

Second, he says "their use" ... the sentence of urban legend sounds like a general sentence not specific to this case.

His next sentence sounds like an educated guess based on "what is out there", not on studies he has looked at.

The last para is his speculation about the market effects. So basically we are back to the first two sentences, one seems general to me, and the second also does not seem like he has studied this drug, or seen it's effect on people, or used it on athletes.
It doesn't matter what he is. As an example, I am a professor of pharmacology, but does it matter here. Certainly not.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
It doesn't matter what he is. As an example, I am a professor of pharmacology, but does it matter here. Certainly not.
So let's have your opinion. Do you think people will keep taking some drug which is an "urban legend" for several years, because they feel it enhances their performance when it was actually a placebo. Do you thing sports federations would have been prescribing a drug for ten years to hundreds of athletes, but were fooled by a placebo.

There used to be a saying once. You can fool one person all the time, or all the people one time but not all the people all the time. Since this is a court of law, i know this doesn't prove anything, but between you and me, two reasonable gentlemen, don't you think this involves too many people being fooled for too long by a placebo ?
 
So let's have your opinion. Do you think people will keep taking some drug which is an "urban legend" for several years, because they feel it enhances their performance when it was actually a placebo. Do you thing sports federations would have been prescribing a drug for ten years to hundreds of athletes, but were fooled by a placebo.

There used to be a saying once. You can fool one person all the time, or all the people one time but not all the people all the time. Since this is a court of law, i know this doesn't prove anything, but between you and me, two reasonable gentlemen, don't you think this involves too many people being fooled for too long by a placebo ?
The only scientific study I have seen claims Meldonium has performance enhancing effects.

The way the scientific method works is by drawing conclusions based on observations and re-adjusting those conclusions based on new, contradictory observations.

As of now, Meldonium is a PED. And that's just one of the reasons why.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
So let's have your opinion. Do you think people will keep taking some drug which is an "urban legend" for several years, because they feel it enhances their performance when it was actually a placebo. Do you thing sports federations would have been prescribing a drug for ten years to hundreds of athletes, but were fooled by a placebo.
Yes; don't ask me to elaborate, but the anaesthesiologist is right. Things from inside look very different than from outside.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
At least now you admit that there is a strong possibility that the ban will be lifted. You've come a long way. It shows a lot more talent for thought than some of your friends.
Of course it might be lifted, but if it does it won't mean she is innocent.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't mean to sound like a lawyer but since this will probably be quoted as the law by some people i know, I'd just like to point out that is is a professor of anesthesiology. Not sure how much he would know about drugs used in sports (may know more than all of us on this forum) but still, is this his field ?

Second, he says "their use" ... the sentence of urban legend sounds like a general sentence not specific to this case.

His next sentence sounds like an educated guess based on "what is out there", not on studies he has looked at.

The last para is his speculation about the market effects. So basically we are back to the first two sentences, one seems general to me, and the second also does not seem like he has studied this drug, or seen it's effect on people, or used it on athletes.

If you had checked what the anesthesiologist in question works with, it's actually in part the topic physical stress during exercise. And irrespective of that it's rather safe to say an anesthesiologist has a solid basis for judging the literature on the effectiveness of a pharmaceutical.

That said, it's true that such general comments aren't the same as a scientific evidence base itself. It does (or should) however add some perspective to some of the more poorly argued claims I have seen in this debate, such as the notion that meldonium must necessarily be super dope just because so many used it etc.


If your son's Highschool coach forced him to take a drug like Meldonium, you would be OK with that?

And this — sorry to point this out — is a nice attempt at a rather classic and much ridiculed variant of appeal to emotion:D

I wouldn't to happy about slimy old men forcing my hypothetical children to much of anything really. But you miss my point: my point is that I haven't seen the appropriate amount of evidence I would need to properly judge the risk/benefit ratio of young athletes being given meldonium, and it seems that the rest of ye here do not have the appropriate information to make a precise judgement of that either, but still it seems that most are willing to go quite far in that direction.

Now, I'll gladly agree to a more principled stance that younglings shouldn't be forced to take pharmaceuticals to aid their sporting performance in either case — my point is that the extent to which this particular instance was so horribly evil is seemingly not clear to us.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Yes, someone tried to run that past me elsewhere. The good news that you've lost on the Meldonium issue and people do like not to admit that sort of thing. So continue on as expected.
 
Yes, someone tried to run that past me elsewhere. The good news that you've lost on the Meldonium issue and people do like not to admit that sort of thing. So continue on as expected.
She used a banned substance and acknowledged it publicly, asking forgiveness. How have we lost the Meldonium battle? You are delusional.
 
If you had checked what the anesthesiologist in question works with, it's actually in part the topic physical stress during exercise. And irrespective of that it's rather safe to say an anesthesiologist has a solid basis for judging the literature on the effectiveness of a pharmaceutical.

That said, it's true that such general comments aren't the same as a scientific evidence base itself. It does (or should) however add some perspective to some of the more poorly argued claims I have seen in this debate, such as the notion that meldonium must necessarily be super dope just because so many used it etc.




And this — sorry to point this out — is a nice attempt at a rather classic and much ridiculed variant of appeal to emotion:D

I wouldn't to happy about slimy old men forcing my hypothetical children to much of anything really. But you miss my point: my point is that I haven't seen the appropriate amount of evidence I would need to properly judge the risk/benefit ratio of young athletes being given meldonium, and it seems that the rest of ye here do not have the appropriate information to make a precise judgement of that either, but still it seems that most are willing to go quite far in that direction.

Now, I'll gladly agree to a more principled stance that younglings shouldn't be forced to take pharmaceuticals to aid their sporting performance in either case — my point is that the extent to which this particular instance was so horribly evil is seemingly not clear to us.
I think you are one of the smartest guys around here, but I disagree completely.

Drugs in the USA have to go through a draconian process of approval that can take years, and that includes analytic studies, trials on animals, and finally trials on human groups. Even then, there have been cases where long-term effects on specific people have taken place.

Now, imagine a drug that somebody invented to give Russian soldiers an edge in extreme conditions (and it could probably be surmised that its long term safety figured pretty low in the list of design requirements). From what I gather, there have been very limited studies about the drug's effects in general, let alone long term effects, interactions, etc.

To give that to children (and even adults) in an athletic performance program is... at the very least irresponsible and temerary. I am surprised at our position on this frankly, because normally you take the approach of demanding proof.

The way I see it, I have no burden assigned to prove the drug (this or any other drug) is unsafe. By default, every drug is assumed unsafe, and the burden is on the company producing the drug to prove its safety (and to stipulate the parameters under which such safety can be assured), and on the government to ensure that no unsafe drugs are peddled to its citizens. Maybe the Russian government holds its people in the same esteem as cattle, but in the US there are very strict procedures to be able to sell a drug to the public.

But whatever, because that frickin genius named Bartelby already has determined through his prodigious intellect that Meldonium is as innocuous as spring water, thus saving the rest of us the trouble of having to think about the issue.
 
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Enga

Hall of Fame
I dont care about Sharapova's ban and peoples kneejerk reactions of anger towards her, but I'm surprised people arent having kneejerk reactions towards WADA. Guess people have picked their sides already eh? Staked their honor? Man, I love having a brain that doesnt pick sides despite not knowing the full story.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I see the troops have turned into a rabble as they turn back defeated and demoralised from the heartland of Russia. When will the West learn?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I think the real problem is that the dopers are always one step ahead, so when WADA starts banning drugs that are ten steps behind one should be immediately suspicious.

I dont care about Sharapova's ban and peoples kneejerk reactions of anger towards her, but I'm surprised people arent having kneejerk reactions towards WADA. Guess people have picked their sides already eh? Staked their honor? Man, I love having a brain that doesnt pick sides despite not knowing the full story.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
You are just voting in your first election so I can forgive your naivety and faux internet sophistication.
Internet sophistication is an oxymoron, although you can look down your 175-year-old nose at me as much as you like.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
So why did you claim for yourself internet sophistication if it is an oxymoron, and why do you engage in faux populism when you use a word used like oxymoron? - a word for 175 year olds.
 
I dont care about Sharapova's ban and peoples kneejerk reactions of anger towards her, but I'm surprised people arent having kneejerk reactions towards WADA. Guess people have picked their sides already eh? Staked their honor? Man, I love having a brain that doesnt pick sides despite not knowing the full story.

You haven't been following the postst of several poasters here, if you think that there were no kneejerk reactions towards WADA.

:cool:
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
I am surprised at our position on this frankly, because normally you take the approach of demanding proof.

The way I see it, I have no burden assigned to prove the drug (this or any other drug) is unsafe. By default, every drug is assumed unsafe, and the burden is on the company producing the drug to prove its safety

Firstly, that's exactly what I'm doing, darnit:D I'm suspending conclusive judgement in the absence of sufficient information.

You're making a very sneaky fallacy regarding the burden of proof. Yes, when someone applies to have a drug approved for the market, the burden is on those making the drug to be able to point to data showing efficacy and safety and general details of its use. You're cleverly using this fact to suggest that you have no burden in this discussion, but it doesn't follow. Here we have a drug that has indeed passed the tests of approval. For all we know, sufficient evidence may well already exist to determine its risk/benefit ratio, and I haven't seen it established otherwise here. So what you're saying is, "I haven't seen enough evidence to accurately judge the effects of this drug, and in the absence of seeing that evidence I'm justified in concluding that sufficient evidence doesn't exist either and that the effects of the drug are bad indeed. Burden of proof is not on me".
Now, that's like me saying I'm not aware of evidence sufficient to establish that it's safe for kids to wear polyester clothing, and therefore I am justified in assuming that the evidence doesn't exist and that wearing polyester is very bad indeed. That's obviously false: the burden of proof would be on me to either establish evidence for it being harmful OR establishing that the research literature is in fact lacking instead of just assuming that it's lacking. What's being done here seems to be the latter.

Note that I already agree by principle that kids shouldn't be forced to take meds for athletic purposes. But let's stop pretending that we know the extent of harm done, shall we.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Here we have a drug that has indeed passed the tests of approval. For all we know, sufficient evidence may well already exist to determine its risk/benefit ratio, and I haven't seen it established otherwise here. So what you're saying is, "I haven't seen enough evidence to accurately judge the effects of this drug, and in the absence of seeing that evidence I'm justified in concluding that sufficient evidence doesn't exist either and that the effects of the drug are bad indeed. Burden of proof is not on me".

Very true, S. However, the reason I felt that there may not be adequate proof of it's safety or efficacy is because it was not approved by the FDA. Of course, we do not have the reason why that happened, one is just assuming ( I did read something but cannot remember).
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
I see the troops have turned into a rabble as they turn back defeated and demoralised from the heartland of Russia. When will the West learn?

So why did you claim for yourself internet sophistication if it is an oxymoron, and why do you engage in faux populism when you use a word used like oxymoron? - a word for 175 year olds.

You are quite a riot, Bart !

Did you read the piece about what Austria has to say ? Must have made your morning brighter. :D

Austrian anti-doping authorities have slammed WADA's decision to relax its guidelines for meldonium cases, saying it's "a bad signal" ahead of the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro.

The ethics commission of Austria's national anti-doping agency says on its website "the partial amnesty for many meldonium cases ... is a setback to the efforts for a clean and doping-free sport."

The commission says "this decision snubs fair athletes, who do not dope and stick to the rules."
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Austria must be strangely depleted of scientists these days if they don't understand the science of excretion rates.

I love it when Stalinist-style bureaucracies use the words 'bad signal'. You need to run and hide quickly when you hear that phrase.

There is no concern for a legal course of conduct here; only the desire to track down and punish for fear of 'bad signals'.

Very Austrian in its desire for order!
 
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