why can't you serve with eastern forehand grip and still pronate?

[spacediver]

Why not hold the racquet like a hammer, so that you can still lead with the edge of the racquet, and then pronate? Seems easier to pronate to a position such that the racquet is then flat on with the ball.

In fact, you can do so even with western and semi western forehand grips.

I'm sure there's some biomechanical reason or safety issue, but just wondering if anyone actually understands the real reason behind continental.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

It is a possible to serve with an Eastern grip and still pronate. Boris Becker is one of the few pros that did this successfully. It was said that he had a very strong forearm & wrist. Pronating & serving with such a grip might very well place extra stresses on the forearm, elbow or shoulder. I believe that Serena Williams & others often use a semi-continental grip for the first serve.

Serving with a SW or Western grip seems wrong on so many levels -- biomechanically, morally, and legally (violates both state & federal statutes, I believe). Would not recommend it. It looks awkward/weird and probably does no favors for your arm & shoulder if you attempt to pronate with Western grips. Serving is already stressful enough to the shoulder with "normal" grips. Don't go asking for more trouble with these weird grips.

 

[halalula1234]

theres a girl who serves with a semi western at our club.. she hits it consistently with medium power, but she can only do so much with it. It would be hard for it to get any better.

OH and BTW it looks soo UGLY!

 

[larry10s]

Why not hold the racquet like a hammer, so that you can still lead with the edge of the racquet, and then pronate? Seems easier to pronate to a position such that the racquet is then flat on with the ball.

In fact, you can do so even with western and semi western forehand grips.

I'm sure there's some biomechanical reason or safety issue, but just wondering if anyone actually understands the real reason behind continental.

when you hold the racquet like a hammer (edge of frame would hit the nail) that is continental not eastern grip!!!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

when you hold the racquet like a hammer (edge of frame would hit the nail) that is continental not eastern grip!!!

It could be that not everyone holds the hammer the same way. I wouldn't be too surprised if clay court players held their hammers with a Western grip :twisted:

 

[fruitytennis1]

It could be that not everyone holds the hammer the same way. I wouldn't be too surprised if clay court players held their hammers with a Western grip :twisted:

now thats prob true

 

[HunterST]

I think the issue is that in order to get the racquet on its edge with a forehand grip, you actually have to supinate a little. That makes the timing harder. Also the grip doesn't let you get as much snap as continental.

 

[Jaewonnie]

I tried this, and did a reverse slice serve. Didnt work for me...

 

[soyizgood]

I tried this, and did a reverse slice serve. Didnt work for me...

I use semi-western for reverse slices and for the occasional under-handed topspin serve. Australian (extreme continental) grip for the other serves.

 

[spacediver]

It is a possible to serve with an Eastern grip and still pronate. Boris Becker is one of the few pros that did this successfully. It was said that he had a very strong forearm & wrist. Pronating & serving with such a grip might very well place extra stresses on the forearm, elbow or shoulder. I believe that Serena Williams & others often use a semi-continental grip for the first serve.

Serving with a SW or Western grip seems wrong on so many levels -- biomechanically, morally, and legally (violates both state & federal statutes, I believe). Would not recommend it. It looks awkward/weird and probably does no favors for your arm & shoulder if you attempt to pronate with Western grips. Serving is already stressful enough to the shoulder with "normal" grips. Don't go asking for more trouble with these weird grips.

thanks for the great answer

I find it kind of awkward to pronate fully with continental, but I think that's partially because when i'm practicing the motion in my bedroom there isn't enough force behind the racquet to allow it to fully pronate. I also feel that with the other grips I mentioned, it does seem to put weird stresses on my wrist and shoulder upon pronation.

I am going to stick to continental, but was also curious about what others thought.

 

[Tennisman912]

Spacediver,

Pure biomechanics and extra wear and tear on the arm. If you can’t get enough force behind your serve with the continental, it will be doubly difficult with an eastern grip. I assume this is obvious to you but maybe not based on the question. Go out and try both and the extra strain for the same snap should be obvious (assuming you have good snap anyway). First, are you sure you even know which grip you have? As larry said, the hammer grip is the continental grip if you are even doing that correctly.

In 25+ years of tennis, I have only seen a couple of people serve without a continental or very close to it grip that were 4.5+ players (only 2 come to mind off hand). The vast majority are those at 4.0 (relatively rare here as well but usually the top of those who think that grips other than conti are ok to serve with) and below who don’t know any better or just won’t change even though they know it means their serve will always be a liability. In fact, the lower the level, the more common the nonconti grip is.

You can get all the snap on the serve you will ever need with the conti grip. You just have to learn to relax the arm and let the snap happen. Take a lesson if you need to get the right feeling.

Best of luck

TM

 

[spacediver]

thanks for the advice tennisman. I actually just pulled out my hammer and you're right - continental grip is what I use for a hammer. My mental image was flawed I guess

So I guess frying pan grip is more accurate.

And yes, conti does actually feel healthier to me (did some more bedroom experimentation).

 

[Manus Domini]

I tried this, and did a reverse slice serve. Didnt work for me...

I use continental for my reverse slice

 

[kingdaddy41788]

Why not hold the racquet like a hammer, so that you can still lead with the edge of the racquet, and then pronate? Seems easier to pronate to a position such that the racquet is then flat on with the ball.

In fact, you can do so even with western and semi western forehand grips.

I'm sure there's some biomechanical reason or safety issue, but just wondering if anyone actually understands the real reason behind continental.

Yup. It can't be done as well, and it's not so good for the arm.

 

[paulfreda]

If you hold an EFH grip for serve, you will likely hit the right fence if you pronate hard.
That is the advantage of the EBH grip. You can pronate as hard as you want and it will still stay in court.

Using an EFH grip for serve it is best to suppinate thru the ball the way most of the WTA players do.
Works very well.

If you must use the EFH grip and want to pronate, you need to pre suppinate the forearm and wrist before you begin the motion.

 

[paulfreda]

Loosey goosey

I find it kind of awkward to pronate fully with continental

Maybe you are holding too tight a grip.
You need to be very loose with your hand.
This is especially true for those using an EBH grip for serve.

As Roy Emerson used to tell his students ...
"Loosey goosey does it"

 

[LeeD]

Easy to pronate, easy to hit pretty hard.
Problem becomes, contact point, the strikezone, is TOO long, so you can't concentrate the power at the right time.
Conti grip, you can concentrate the rackethead speed just before ball strike, so you finish the stroke just before hitting the ball.
EFH, with it's longer strikepoint, seems the harder you swing, the less chance you can finish your swing, so the ball goes long most times you swing for ball speed on the first serves.
Becker notwithstanding. He really served close to Aussie grip, between conti and EFH.

 

[halalula1234]

I use continental for my reverse slice

me 2 ddddddddddddd

 

[supineAnimation]

I hear Berdych uses an eastern grip for his serve. But mechanically-speaking, the continental is the way to go. Keep working at it; you'll get it. Maybe take a lesson with a good pro.

 

[Ben Hadd]

Just now getting used to Conti grip for service. I've been blasting them for years with eastern, semi western, and played around with some full western recently too. The best I can tell, it's what your comfortable with. Seems easier to achieve the bigger speeds with the conti, but its doable with any grip tbh.

 

[user92626]

OP,

I think the easiest analogy for you to understand serving with continental is that cont grip is the complete opposite of fh sw grip and it works perfectly, as well as hitting a sw FH, because the serve is essentially flipping the racket ends completely around (and hitting above your head). That's all. If you don't get it, i can elaborate a little more.

 

[rkelley]

Just now getting used to Conti grip for service. I've been blasting them for years with eastern, semi western, and played around with some full western recently too. The best I can tell, it's what your comfortable with. Seems easier to achieve the bigger speeds with the conti, but its doable with any grip tbh.

One of the big problems with the EFH grip for flat first serves is that the serve usually is hit truly flat - zero spin. Studies done on pros with big first serves, including Mr. Big-Bomb Andy and Pete, show that they have around 1000-2000 rpms of spin. The spin is key to pulling the ball down into the court. If you hit a 120 mph serve truly flat it will almost impossible to land it unless you're really, really tall (like Shaq).

The continental grip gives you the spin with the speed. It also gives you a variety of other serves that all can be hit the about the same toss and swing (at least not grossly different swings).

Also consider that there are no pros that I'm aware of that use an EFH grip for serving (women or men). Becker shaded his continental to the forehand side, but it was still fundamentally a continental as far as I know. Perhaps there is an exception to this, but basically all pros use a continental grip with a few maybe using an EBH grip. I think it makes sense to go with the overwhelming majority of pros on this one.

 

[spacediver]

OP,

I think the easiest analogy for you to understand serving with continental is that cont grip is the complete opposite of fh sw grip and it works perfectly, as well as hitting a sw FH, because the serve is essentially flipping the racket ends completely around (and hitting above your head). That's all. If you don't get it, i can elaborate a little more.

wow hehe way to revive an old thread. Yep have a much better understanding of proper serve mechanics since I created this thread. But never thought about it in the way you said it - I use an eastern forehand grip myself.

 

[David W712]

Clear! Thump thump. We have a pulse!
I can confirm the flatness of the flat serve with an eastern grip.
I can smash the ball and it's so fast I often hit opponents because they can't get out of the way, but the strike zone is sooooo small, I'm talking two inches in height at the most.
If I have more than two inches between ball and net, it will go long. Not much to play with, and causes a lot of faults.
When I switch to putting some top spin on it I have so much more room it's wonderful.
Just can't switch to the continental though. I've tried to even tape my hand to the racquet so I can't switch, but still as soon as I move to the trophy pose I change my grip.
Must be all the practice with the javelin causing this tendency.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The arm and racket for the high level serve slice and flat serves have specific angles. Neither the arm or racket are close to vertical at impact. (The kick serve has different angles.)

Viewed from the side of the ball's trajectory-
1) the arm is tilted forward
2) the racket appears vertical from this camera viewpoint and the palm of the hand on the racket handle also appears vertical.
3) the wrist is extended to make this work.

Viewed from behind camera, looking along the ball's initial trajectory -
1) The arm appears to tilt to the right.
2) For slice and flat serves the racket appears to tilt to the left.

Thread showing racket and arm angles with pictures.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-flat-slice-kick-impacts.489960/#post-8099755

Racket demo using these angles with a comfortable extended wrist-

Eastern Forehand Grip. If I hold the racket in the position of impact and use an Eastern Forehand grip (index knuckle on bevel #3 and handle butt at the little finger) the racket strings have an angle in the open/closed direction. Looks close to neutral between open or closed.

Continental Grip. If I hold the racket in the position of impact and use a Continental grip (index knuckle on bevel #2 and handle butt at the little finger) the racket face is more closed.

I guess experience has shown that with a high level serve the Continental or 'Strong Continental' is the preferred grip for the average high level serve.

For a Waiter's Tray serve technique, the most common technique used by recreation players, who knows what angles apply? The WT is associated with the Eastern Forehand grip. WT develops most pace by closing the racket without the additional arm and racket rotation from ISR. For the same pace, I believe that high-low errors are greater with a WT.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Why not hold the racquet like a hammer, so that you can still lead with the edge of the racquet, and then pronate? Seems easier to pronate to a position such that the racquet is then flat on with the ball.

In fact, you can do so even with western and semi western forehand grips.

I'm sure there's some biomechanical reason or safety issue, but just wondering if anyone actually understands the real reason behind continental.

Because with a Continental grip the racquet face will be square to the target at contact for most players (depending on how much their arms pronate). With an Eastern grip, the racquet face will tend to pronate past square to the target at contact for most players. As a result, with an Eastern grip, most players would have to inhibit the natural pronation of the forearm in order for the racquet to be square to the target at contact. A hammer grip (fingers in tight formation rather than spread apart), does not resolve that problem.

 

[Limpinhitter]

It is a possible to serve with an Eastern grip and still pronate. Boris Becker is one of the few pros that did this successfully. It was said that he had a very strong forearm & wrist. Pronating & serving with such a grip might very well place extra stresses on the forearm, elbow or shoulder. I believe that Serena Williams & others often use a semi-continental grip for the first serve.

Serving with a SW or Western grip seems wrong on so many levels -- biomechanically, morally, and legally (violates both state & federal statutes, I believe). Would not recommend it. It looks awkward/weird and probably does no favors for your arm & shoulder if you attempt to pronate with Western grips. Serving is already stressful enough to the shoulder with "normal" grips. Don't go asking for more trouble with these weird grips.

It's a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions, and a felony South of the Mason-Dixon line.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Note: With my previous post (from more than 6 yrs ago), it was generally believed that Becker served with an Eastern grip. However, it has come to light since that time that Boris used something close to a conti grip for his 2nd serve and used a semi-conti grip, not an Eastern grip, for first serves. This appears to be similar to practice that Serena had adopted later.

 

[Chas Tennis]

........... Boris used something close to a conti grip for his 2nd serve and used a semi-conti grip, not an Eastern grip, for first serves. This appears to be similar to practice that Serena had adopted later.

What is a semi-continental?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

What is a semi-continental?

Aka an Aussie grip. About halfway between Eastern FH grip and a Continental grip. Base index knuckle bevel 2.5 and heel pad lined up with same (or offset somewhat).

 

[Chotobaka]

Serving with a SW or Western grip seems wrong on so many levels -- biomechanically, morally, and legally (violates both state & federal statutes, I believe).

Nailed it! Especially, the violation of both state and federal law.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

Because a majority of the pronation will happen AFTER contact, rather than going into contact. Not to mention, the more extreme the grip is towards the forehand, it's next to impossible to pronate with a loose arm, robbing you of a ton of power. You can force the proper racket head motion, but it comes at the cost of having a stiff and forced motion as opposed to a fluid and quick motion. The continental grip gives the largest range of loose motion, while an eastern backhand grip forces a massive amount of pronation prior to hitting the ball.