Why do people not rate Emerson among ATGs like Laver and Borg?

[King No1e]

Because he won his Slams in a weak era.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

[r2473]

Who’s Emerson?

 

[stringertom]

Who’s Emerson?

Fabulous prog rock keyboardist. Definitely ATG.

 

[BeatlesFan]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

 

[King No1e]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

Exactly. The pre-open era 60's, especially at the AO, was the perfect example of a real weak era. All the real competition had moved to the pro circuit, so Emerson was able to feast on weak era mugs to win his 12 Slams.

 

[stringertom]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

Emmo beat Laver in finals for his first two of his 12 slam titles in 1961. Rocket returned the favor by beating Emmo in three of his CYGS finals the next year.

The Australian Championships in the early/mid 60s were pretty much a closed “open” to foreign players but the Aussies of that era were great grass players...Newk, Stolle, Roche. All the slams that decade until Open tennis in 1968 were watered down by Laver’s defection to pro tennis in 1963 and Hoad and Rosewall’s turning pro in the late 50s.

Still no shame though for Emmo to win 2x CGS in both singles and dubs.

 

[flutzingitaway]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

I don't think on any planet he belongs in the same league as double slam winners or even ATGs like Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, Agassi. However I do think he is underrated by some people these days too. I have researched some of his career and he had surprisingly respectable head to heads with people like LAVER (not Lendl, LMAO), Rosewall, Newcombe, and other of the real greats when he did play them, particularly the early Open Era. There are some who rate him at the level of a 1 or 2 slam winner like Roddick or Chang, and I do think that is a bit harsh, although I don't consider him an ATG either. Rating him is very hard, and so inconclusive though.

 

[Phoenix1983]

I don't think on any planet he belongs in the same league as double slam winners or even ATGs like Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, Agassi. However I do think he is underrated by some people these days too. I have researched some of his career and he had surprisingly respectable head to heads with people like Lendl, Rosewall, and other of the real greats when he did play them, particularly the early Open Era. There are some who rate him at the level of a 1 or 2 slam winner like Roddick or Chang, and I do think that is a bit harsh, although I don't consider him an ATG either. Rating him is very hard, and so inconclusive though.

I'm surprised that Emerson played on long enough to face Lendl.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Who’s Emerson?

Ralph Waldo Emerson (May 25, 1803 – April 27, 1882)[6] was an American essayist, lecturer, philosopher, and poet who led the transcendentalist movement of the mid-19th century. He was seen as a champion of individualism and a prescient critic of the countervailing pressures of society, and he disseminated his thoughts through dozens of published essays and more than 1,500 public lectures across the United States.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Juninho was their first love, I don't know.

 

[King No1e]

I don't think on any planet he belongs in the same league as double slam winners or even ATGs like Lendl, McEnroe, Connors, Agassi. However I do think he is underrated by some people these days too. I have researched some of his career and he had surprisingly respectable head to heads with people like Lendl, Rosewall, and other of the real greats when he did play them, particularly the early Open Era. There are some who rate him at the level of a 1 or 2 slam winner like Roddick or Chang, and I do think that is a bit harsh, although I don't consider him an ATG either. Rating him is very hard, and so inconclusive though.

Lendl vs Emerson: 19?? Australian Open final

 

[flutzingitaway]

Lendl vs Emerson: 19?? Australian Open final

Sorry I meant Laver, my brain is fried from all this time indoors.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Juninho was their first love, I don't know.

Wow that brings back memories. Ravanelli wasn't bad either!

 

[Fiero425]

I'm surprised that Emerson played on long enough to face Lendl.

Emerson was still quite a good doubles' & MxDub partner in the 70's, but I think you're thinking of Roche who went on to coach Lendl to #1! Emerson's serve looked and sounded like a cannon going off; esp. when playing indoors! A lot of the old Aussies played longer than most in singles and extended their careers with doubles; Newcombe, Roche, Stolle, & Davidson among others playing themselves & in MxD's w/ women like Court, BJK, Casal, Wade, Stove, & Durr OTTH! Takes me way back!

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Wow that brings back memories. Ravanelli wasn't bad either!

Middlesbrough were my one and only one on the side. haha As long as they weren't playing United then I wanted them to win. Was fan when they brought in Ravanelli and E,merson. Juninho was already there. One of my great championship manager success stories managing them. Of course, in that game, Ravanelli would stay for longer than a season. Still made big impact. Premier league debut was probably his finest hour. (and a half)

 

[jorjipy]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

Roswell won 4 slams before he turned pro and he won 4 slams in the open era......he made 8 slam finals up to 1956 and 8 slam finals from 1968

He missed the best 12 years of his tennis career away from slam tennis. My opinion: if he had played those 12 years he wins nearly every French and probably at least 8 slams on grass......he would be the undisputed record holder of slam titles, but he would have been an accumulator of titles.....my guess, 26 slams in total. But not the best ever, just the most slams.......

to give younger readers a perspective, imagine Djokovic isn't allowed to play slams from 2010 until 2021, he misses out on the best 12 years of his career. That is what happened to Rosewall and he still won 8 slams!

 

[Deleted member 768841]

Fabulous prog rock keyboardist. Definitely ATG.

Operation: Mindcrime!

 

[King No1e]

Roswell won 4 slams before he turned pro and he won 4 slams in the open era......he made 8 slam finals up to 1956 and 8 slam finals from 1968

He missed the best 12 years of his tennis career away from slam tennis. My opinion: if he had played those 12 years he wins nearly every French and probably at least 8 slams on grass......he would be the undisputed record holder of slam titles, but he would have been an accumulator of titles.....my guess, 26 slams in total. But not the best ever, just the most slams.......

to give younger readers a perspective, imagine Djokovic isn't allowed to play slams from 2010 until 2021, he misses out on the best 12 years of his career. That is what happened to Rosewall and he still won 8 slams!

He won 15 Pro Slams, which makes it 23 total Majors. Won a calendar-year Pro Slam sweep, too. So your estimate of 26 majors isn't too far off.

 

[jorjipy]

Rosewall didn’t bother playing the French after winning in 68 and being runner up in 69......just like he didn’t play the French in 55-56 even though he won the French in 53 as an 18yo! He left a lot of slams on the table......26 slams is probably an under-estimation by me but people would think I am crazy if I said he would have won 30 slams

but in my mind Laver would have cleaned up in the mid 60s and won 3 slams a year most years......shorter career than Rosewall, but way more dominant, fewer slams in this hypothetical re-writing of history but the best player ever in the wood racquet era

 

[King No1e]

Rosewall didn’t bother playing the French after winning in 68 and being runner up in 69......just like he didn’t play the French in 55-56 even though he won the French in 53 as an 18yo! He left a lot of slams on the table......26 slams is probably an under-estimation by me but people would think I am crazy if I said he would have won 30 slams

but in my mind Laver would have cleaned up in the mid 60s and won 3 slams a year most years......shorter career than Rosewall, but way more dominant, fewer slams in this hypothetical re-writing of history but the best player ever in the wood racquet era

Laver and Rosewall have been totally forgotten in the GOAT race these days with Fedalovic fans debating amongst themselves who's the GOAT.
They're both right up there with Federer IMO.

 

[Fiero425]

Laver and Rosewall have been totally forgotten in the GOAT race these days with Fedalovic fans debating amongst themselves who's the GOAT.
They're both right up there with Federer IMO.

As is stated in the TCC show talking about the greatest players and the "best of" list! The year Laver won his pro CYGS, each of the finalists became HOF members! Not sure we can say that about many of the players competing against The Big 3! Fedalovic have owned this era like no other with little difficulty! It was made easier for them by making Masters' finals BO3 instead of BO5 which would have cut Nadal's totals by at least a 3rd IMO! His recovery time would be much too short between events that are so close together!

 

[King No1e]

As is stated in the TCC show talking about the greatest players and the "best of" list! The year Laver won his pro CYGS, each of the finalists became HOF members! Not sure we can say that about many of the players competing against The Big 3! Fedalovic have owned this era like no other with little difficulty! It was made easier for them by making Masters' finals BO3 instead of BO5 which would have cut Nadal's totals by at least a 3rd IMO! His recovery time would be much too short between events that are so close together!

I do think Murray will become a Hall of Famer though.
But regardless, my GOAT list has Laver and Rosewall at #1 and #3. Both are absolute legends and should be right at the top of any GOAT list.

 

[Fiero425]

I do think Murray will become a Hall of Famer though.
But regardless, my GOAT list has Laver and Rosewall at #1 and #3. Both are absolute legends and should be right at the top of any GOAT list.

Fedalovic have kept a legion of players from collecting at least one major and may never reach the HOF due to not wining their one chance at a GS; Berdych, Ferrer, & Tsonga to name but a few! It's a shame the anomaly is occurring and for such a long period of time; 15-20 years and counting!

 

[jorjipy]

Since this is a thread about Emerson, I will give you my 2 cents' worth.....

Obviously we all know he only won slams in the amateur era and he resisted turning pro once he won Wimbledon, he stayed 'amateur' and scooped up 12 slams.....

In 1962 as Laver was winning the actual Grand Slam, he beat Emerson in 3 of those 4 slam finals. So Emerson was the second best amateur in the world, no doubt. Once Laver left, Emerson was top dog amongst the amateurs. Maybe, just maybe, an Emerson fan could claim that Emerson's peak coincided with Laver leaving and he would have been the dominant or at least one of the top 2 players in the era 1963-67. I dont believe that and my 'proof' is that Emerson won Wimbledon on his 9th attempt!!!! It appears that he waited for a lot of Wimbledon winners (Hoad, Cooper, Olmedo, Laver) to turn pro and leave such a weakened field that he could finally win Wimbledon.

Now, the question remains why did Emerson and Fred Stolle continue as amateurs even after they had won slams, surely they wanted the money the pros were playing for. The answer is that in the mid 1960s, the USTA was playing Emerson and Stolle $1000 a week to remain 'amateurs' and to sustain the US tennis tournaments over their summer. That was a lot of money in those days, they had that money guaranteed, didnt have to face the might of Gonzalez, Rosewall and Laver on a nightly basis, and they could still win the prestigious slam titles. That's a pretty good gig

I will say one thing good about Emerson, he had an awesome flat backhand return and he had killer volleys

 

[stringertom]

Operation: Mindcrime!

Queensrÿche are on my list but somewhere slightly below EL&P.

 

[Deleted member 768841]

Queensrÿche are on my list but somewhere slightly below EL&P.

Even Bruce Dickinson said he preferred Operation: Mindcrime over Seventh Son of A Seventh Son lol.

 

[Lew II]

Emerson was not even considered top5 in his era by the experts of the time. As the Open Era began he went from winning 10 titles in 5 years to not even reaching a semifinal, while Laver, Rosewall and Gimeno who were the same age won many Slams. Even Pancho Gonzales who was over 40 years old made a Slam semi.

 

[zagor]

Pro and amateur tour split.

 

[thrust]

I realize the OP's question was said in jest, but the serious answer is that Emerson won none of his slams in the Open era. And six of them were won at the AO when the competition there at the time was WTA-level. It's the same reason Rosewall isn't esteemed as highly as he should, because the majority of his slams were won pre-Open era.

4 of Rosewall's slams were pre OE, 4 were in the OE, after he had turned 33. He also reached 4 other slam finals in OE, 2 after turning 39
6 of Laver's slams were pre OE, 5 in OE, his last at 31 years old.
Rosewall lost 11 years playing slams while on pro tour, Laver lost 5 years while on pro tour. While on pro tour both won many big tournaments playing each other, Gonzalez, Hoad, Trabert, Gimeno and other top former amateurs.