Why do teaching pros insist on teaching spin serve esp to women?

[OnTheLine]

"just spin it in"
"all women should use a slice serve as a first serve"
"why don't you have a spin serve?"
"okay, I am going to have you change your first serve to a spin serve"
"you need to get the first serve in so I want you to spin it in"
"doesn't matter if it is fast as long as it has a lot of spin"

All things I have heard teaching pros say to teams of women. I don't think I have ever heard one say the same to men but I probably wasn't listening.

I have seen pros tell a team of women they all MUST have a spin serve before even looking at any of the players' serves and evaluating.

Why?

For the record I have a good serve. I win 90% of my service matches in ladies' league at 3.5 and 4.0. I will rarely drop my serve in mixed at 7.0, 7.5 or 8.0.
I hit a flat but good margin hard first serve. I have had it clocked on 3 different occasions. Most recently was in the low to mid 80s average. (as low as 82 one over 90 but it was an outlier)
I can place it either to the T, out wide or to the body.
I land it better than 60% on the 1st

On my second I do one of two things:
Good day: Just hit another 1st ... I don't care if I DF a few times in a match.
Bad day: I toss a little bit more behind me, come up on it a bit and has some top/slice ... good margin over the net .. clocked at 65-70, easy to place to the T either side ... cannot hit this one wide with accuracy.

Why do teaching pros insist on all women learning this weak spin serve? They are relatively easy to return. They pose little threat at 3.5 or 4.0.

 

[r2473]

Why do you think so? I’m sure you’ve formed an opinion.

 

[OnTheLine]

Why do you think so? I’m sure you’ve formed an opinion.

My only thought is that it must be the easiest to teach to those who may not be natural servers.

It often seems to be taught from the frying pan rather than the trophy ...

But I am no teaching pro .... there must be another reason.

 

[r2473]

My only thought is that it must be the easiest to teach to those who may not be natural servers.

It often seems to be taught from the frying pan rather than the trophy ...

But I am no teaching pro .... there must be another reason.

I think you’re right. Easiest to teach and quickly execute. So the student can start to consistently get the ball in play without making errors.

If they show interest in learning better serves (like you), I’m sure the instructor will gladly show them

 

[Dan Huben]

You’re being overly sensitive. I am 6’5” and my pro is mandating spin serves. I attended an OTI academy and they focused on spin serves.

If you have a good hard, flat 80+ mph first serve, that’s great. You’re also above the 90th percentile for all rec tennis. Some 5’2” people (though likely women at that height) can’t flat serve. So spin is an alternative better than dink.

Or maybe it’s another example of the man trying to keep a sister down. You choose


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[blablavla]

My only thought is that it must be the easiest to teach to those who may not be natural servers.

It often seems to be taught from the frying pan rather than the trophy ...

But I am no teaching pro .... there must be another reason.

my experience, and it is confirmed by quite some players in the club, it is easier to teach & learn the flat service.
but, the trick is, it is easier to hit the service box with a spin service.
this might be part of the answer.

another part of the answer, probably because up to a certain level, folks have troubles attacking a ball with reasonable amount of spin.
so, even if you need to drop a fair amount of speed, quite some opponents will be having troubles to attack your serve.

other thoughts?

 

[dsp9753]

I think the most common reason is that most people who only serve flat can be streaky. It is relatively easy to learn but the execution can be difficult. If you are having a bad day, you will end up dinking a flat serve short or pop it up which makes it easier for the opponent to attack. Or, your flat 1st serve may never have been a weapon to begin with and it is easy to attack. And then your 2nd serve is even worse.

A decent kick/spin serve over time will allow you to hit a 2nd serve with decent pace and placement in theory. I know for all the men I play against, all the players who have flat 2nd servers are generally considered weaker servers and easier to break. At 4.5 and above, I almost never see anyone who does not use a kick/slice serve for their 2nd serve.

 

[Dragy]

If we consider good serve mechanics (conti grip, upward throwing motion, approaching ball edge-on, rotating arm and racquet into contact) the whole idea of flat serve being easier to learn/hit consistently is wrong. The easiest serve to hit with proper mechanics is mild slice serve. The easiest to be decently paced, yet consistently over the net and into the box, is topslice serve - requires a bit more effort to configure your body to swing more upward with a more 12 o’clock toss. With a spin serve one can find freedom to swing fully onto the ball and work on improving RHS. Doesn’t mean swinging as hard as you can, beware.
Truly flat serves at speeds close to 90 and higher require server to be high to be hit consistently.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Because u don't need to pay a pro if you just want to pancake frying pan serve. No lessons needed. Even 6'4" ATP pros only get 50% of their flat serves in. You need a second serve if you're a real player

 

[blablavla]

Because u don't need to pay a pro if you just want to pancake frying pan serve. No lessons needed. Even 6'4" ATP pros only get 50% of their flat serves in. You need a second serve if you're a real player

or because there is a difference between a flat dink serve, for the sake of hitting the service box and a flat serve that is a weapon to help you held the service game.
the later one is very difficult to master.
and the swings between a good day and a bad day can be massive.

so, if both, proper flat and top spin are difficult to master, but the latter one is easier to execute (once you mastered it), I am not surprised by the choice of coaches.

 

[denoted]

From my experience playing mixed, and I have also heard this from several other people, it is spin and not pace that mostly separates the men's game from the women's at similar NTRP levels. Heavy topspin on groundstrokes and serves was, from my observation, almost uniformly unreturnable for 3.5 and even some 4.0 women, whereas both were often quite good at blocking back fast flat serves. So I could see the pro thinking of this as a competitive advantage.

 

[OnTheLine]

You’re being overly sensitive.

Or maybe it’s another example of the man trying to keep a sister down. You choose


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Not overly sensitive ....

And, didn't go there at all.

 

[Dan R]

All things I have heard teaching pros say to teams of women. I don't think I have ever heard one say the same to men but I probably wasn't listening.

They say it to men all the time too, constantly. They certainly say it to me and I have a good kick serve.

 

[sureshs]

Spinning in a serve involves many fundamentals and is easier said than done. It requires fine control over the service procedure to make it operate at a lower controlled speed. If you have those skills, your usual serve will also be at a very high level. Look at the warm-up serves pros take or the spin-in serves on the senior tour.

 

[OnTheLine]

They say it to men all the time too, constantly. They certainly say it to me and I have a good kick serve.

Like I said, I probably wasn't listening

So, since you have a good kick serve as your 2nd or even first serve .... is this advice that resonates with you or not?

 

[atatu]

I mean I think you answered your own question, because they want you to advance past 4.0 level. This applies to men also, if you want to be better than 4.0 you need to be able to hit a spin serve, I've know exactly one player who got to 5.0 without a spin serve.

 

[blablavla]

Not overly sensitive ....

And, didn't go there at all.

there are of course exceptions from the rule, so if your coach is stubborn enough to not see this, and you are stubborn enough to ignore the advice...

but then, I would ask why have a coach if you both ignore each other, at least partially? though this is a different discussion

 

[sureshs]

"just spin it in"
"all women should use a slice serve as a first serve"
"why don't you have a spin serve?"
"okay, I am going to have you change your first serve to a spin serve"
"you need to get the first serve in so I want you to spin it in"
"doesn't matter if it is fast as long as it has a lot of spin"

All things I have heard teaching pros say to teams of women. I don't think I have ever heard one say the same to men but I probably wasn't listening.

I have seen pros tell a team of women they all MUST have a spin serve before even looking at any of the players' serves and evaluating.

Why?

For the record I have a good serve. I win 90% of my service matches in ladies' league at 3.5 and 4.0. I will rarely drop my serve in mixed at 7.0, 7.5 or 8.0.
I hit a flat but good margin hard first serve. I have had it clocked on 3 different occasions. Most recently was in the low to mid 80s average. (as low as 82 one over 90 but it was an outlier)
I can place it either to the T, out wide or to the body.
I land it better than 60% on the 1st

On my second I do one of two things:
Good day: Just hit another 1st ... I don't care if I DF a few times in a match.
Bad day: I toss a little bit more behind me, come up on it a bit and has some top/slice ... good margin over the net .. clocked at 65-70, easy to place to the T either side ... cannot hit this one wide with accuracy.

Why do teaching pros insist on all women learning this weak spin serve? They are relatively easy to return. They pose little threat at 3.5 or 4.0.

In most of these issues, the threshold effect comes into play.

As you said, many of these spin second serves are weak and get crushed. That is why crafty old club players who keep winning do not bother to learn TS or kick second serves, and in fact much of the WTA does not use them either. Even the Nadal uses slice most of the time on the second serve. There is a threshold of quality below which the ball will sit up.

 

[heninfan99]

in b4 "all serves have spin"

 

[Bagumbawalla]

First of all, I think I would stay away from an instructor who says, "OK, now I am going to teach you how to hit a weak spin serve".

On the other hand, a good, solid, reliable spin serve is a must-have in tennis.

Almost every shot in tennis will have spin- to one extent or another. Spin is what we use to control the ball- otherwise we have only gravity and the speed (and direction) of the ball to affect placement.

Unless you are exceptionally tall, most likely you use some spin, anyway, even if you don't know it.

So, it would be nice to find a teacher who would first check out your strengths and weaknesses before plotting out a strategy for improvement. Then, after checking out your serves, he or she might suggest you learn the different types of spin we can use to control our serves, how they affect the ball- and when they might be most effective.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

To learn the basic aspects of a good ... and mechanically solid tennis serve ... bottomline ... EVERYTHING evolves from ... and is modified from ... a SPIN serve. It reminds me of ground stroke students who want to go for raw power first ... and think they can then just put a harness on it later to perfect it ... ... ... when it's much easier to add power to an intelligently controlled stroke ... than it is to add control to a technically deficient power stroke ~ MG

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

A spin serve is what I focus on for ALL novice and intermediate students. Many already have figured out, own their own, how to hit some semblance of a flat pancake (or frying pan) serve -- usually with poor mechanics and a low success rate. Basically, we are working on the toss and a 2nd serve until they can get 80% to 90% of them into the box. Once they have mastered this, then we move on to faster serves with less spin. Still shooting for 60% or better for a first serve.

You are only as good as your 2nd serve. Need to make sure that players learn to develop a consistent 2nd serve that can be hit with authority. Many players focus on the flat serve first will often blast the 1st serve and only get it into play 1/3 of the time or less. And then they will follow this up with a very weak (blooper) 2nd serve that is often blasted back by the returner for a winner.

 

[OnTheLine]

First of all, I think I would stay away from an instructor who says, "OK, now I am going to teach you how to hit a weak spin serve".

On the other hand, a good, solid, reliable spin serve is a must-have in tennis.

Almost every shot in tennis will have spin- to one extent or another. Spin is what we use to control the ball- otherwise we have only gravity and the speed (and direction) of the ball to affect placement.

Unless you are exceptionally tall, most likely you use some spin, anyway, even if you don't know it.

So, it would be nice to find a teacher who would first check out your strengths and weaknesses before plotting out a strategy for improvement. Then, after checking out your serves, he or she might suggest you learn the different types of spin we can use to control our serves, how they affect the ball- and when they might be most effective.

I think in a team-group setting it would perhaps be too difficult (time consuming) to really evaluate 8 different players' serves and then teach each what they need .... then again don't think a team clinic is the time or place to work on a serve ... it is much too individualistic to work on in that setting in my mind.

And definitely on my 2nd there is much more spin than on my 1st although even my flat 1st has some, if it did not it would not be as effective nor get in as much.

And stubborn, yes I am.

If I can get a spin serve with some pace on it that would be fine. But the way this darn thing seems to be taught renders it paceless and lame .... at least so far.

 

[Dondon]

My spin serve is unreturned on some intermediate levels
So much spin they can't deal with it
They attack it but they can't get it over the net.
Maybe u can try it out again.

 

[mbm0912]

My spin serve is unreturned on some intermediate levels
So much spin they can't deal with it
They attack it but they can't get it over the net.
Maybe u can try it out again.

that you, Rafa?

 

[PMChambers]

As a male with a reasonable big serve I found woman struggle a lot more with my kick serve. If I serve bombs the % goes down and although I get aces it still tends to come back with block.
The kick serve requires the receiver to attack the ball and be agressive, blocking doesn't general work as it balloons up and with good movement vertically and horizontally it's requires better tracking. Women also tend to be shorter so good kick will get above shoulder height on a lot of women which is had to hit and requires agressive returning.
In the end of the day women tend to be less agressive on return and not used to decent kick. I don't see many women kicking their serve hard.
Maybe male coaches feel similarly. Good kick is hard to hit

 

[Rubens]

Women are shorter than men, which makes it harder for them to hit flat serves in with a decent percentage.

 

[Dan R]

Like I said, I probably wasn't listening

So, since you have a good kick serve as your 2nd or even first serve .... is this advice that resonates with you or not?

No, what I'm saying is even though I have a good kick serve relative to my level they still all tell me I need to spin the ball more. I don't think the advice is limited to gender. That said I don't see women using kick serves as much as men for some reason, and I think this is true even at the pro level.

 

[dominikk1985]

Because a spin serve is a requirement to succeed at higher levels. You can't hit two first serves all the time and win, need a kicker or slice (better kicker for righties).

Sure in theory 2 first serves might work but there is variance i.e. some games are 40-0 and some you hit 3 DFs so that isn't a winning strategy especially under pressure.

You can't extrapolate 3.5 to high level. If you want to be good a spin serve needs to be in your arsenal.

Of course you also need a flat serve but I think you are seeing ghosts if you think coaches teach high level women to just spin it in.

 

[zaph]

On my second I do one of two things:
Good day: Just hit another 1st ... I don't care if I DF a few times in a match.
Bad day: I toss a little bit more behind me, come up on it a bit and has some top/slice ... good margin over the net .. clocked at 65-70, easy to place to the T either side ... cannot hit this one wide with accuracy.

Why do teaching pros insist on all women learning this weak spin serve? They are relatively easy to return. They pose little threat at 3.5 or 4.0.

Oh dear, were to start with this? You admit you have a spin second serve yourself, topspin is spin or didn't you realise that? It is also nonsense to claim serves with spin or action on them are easy to return. Otherwise a slow blower in cricket would be useless. I am about 3.5 level and naturally put side spin on my serves. I get allot of under returned serves because players at rec level struggle with balls which turn or kick on them.

Whereas the flat serve you favour is p**s easy to return, unless it is hit with massive pace, which your average 3.5 level player hasn't got.

As for coaches, they should teach the spin serve, especially the topspin serve. The number of players I have seen and played, who have powerful first serves and awful second serves is ridiculous. They either hit two first serves and double fault away endless service games or have to dolly the second serve over.

The most important shot in tennis is the second serve. Someone who has a reliable second serve, with a bit on it, is a very difficult opponent to beat.

 

[zaph]

Because a spin serve is a requirement to succeed at higher levels. You can't hit two first serves all the time and win, need a kicker or slice (better kicker for righties).

Sure in theory 2 first serves might work but there is variance i.e. some games are 40-0 and some you hit 3 DFs so that isn't a winning strategy especially under pressure.

You can't extrapolate 3.5 to high level. If you want to be good a spin serve needs to be in your arsenal.

Of course you also need a flat serve but I think you are seeing ghosts if you think coaches teach high level women to just spin it in.

You're 100% right. There are a couple of guys at my club with massive first serves, well over 6 foot, who are easy to beat because they insist on hitting two first serves. All you have to do is hold your own serve and wait for them to self destruct. You can guarantee they will double fault at least one service game away.

If using two first serves worked, the pros would do it.

 

[ptuanminh]

Was playing a practice double set the other day. My side: both pretty strong 4.0, the other side: former pro, played davis cup for his country, in his 60s + a player who just started playing 1 year ago.
The pro was just slicing his serves and we got screwed and we lost 2 -6.
Well, it just works.

 

[sureshs]

To learn the basic aspects of a good ... and mechanically solid tennis serve ... bottomline ... EVERYTHING evolves from ... and is modified from ... a SPIN serve. It reminds me of ground stroke students who want to go for raw power first ... and think they can then just put a harness on it later to perfect it ... ... ... when it's much easier to add power to an intelligently controlled stroke ... than it is to add control to a technically deficient power stroke ~ MG

Many USTA league women players up to the 4.5 level hit only flat serves, sometimes with a slight forehand grip.

 

[tennis4me]

I've heard this advice to men also. My interpretation of "spin" on serves includes both topspin and sidespin ("slices"). I have in fact also recommended a 4.5 lefty friend to use more slice serves as it was actually harder to return than his flat serve that has less % plus it didn't take advantage of that nasty lefty slice that curves to right-hander's body. Plus his placement of his fist serve is not that great, so it was ready to block anyway.

Obviously, there's different levels of spins that a player can generate (as in RPM/pace wise). A good slice serve with strategic placement can be very effective. Just as effective if not more than one's low percentage flat serves.

 

[sovertennis]

OP, please reconsider your "all coaches" rant. I only teach a spin (top or slice) serve to those players who are willing to take the time and make the effort to learn it, otherwise we practice other aspects of their game.

(And why the polemics? I've been coaching for 25 years. In my experience "all coaches" don't give instructions in lockstep).

 

[tpro2000]

Many USTA league women players up to the 4.5 level hit only flat serves, sometimes with a slight forehand grip.

OP, please reconsider your "all coaches" rant. I only teach a spin (top or slice) serve to those players who are willing to take the time and make the effort to learn it, otherwise we practice other aspects of their game.

(And why the polemics? I've been coaching for 25 years. In my experience "all coaches" don't give instructions in lockstep).

I agree with both of these statements.

Maybe it's just me, but one of the biggest issues with teaching spin serves (male, female, juniors) is swing speed. What's the point of a spin serve at certain levels if the student can't swing fast enough physically to generate enough spin to make the serve effective?

Everyone could learn it, but would it make an impact in their matches? If it spins, just sits there without much movement, and gets crushed, what's the point? If you're able to physically get the spin serve moving (topspin, kick, slice, whatever), the by all means get after learning it because it's a huge advantage moving up the levels.

Just my opinion

 

[Kevo]

I insist on teaching everyone I coach to hit spin serves. And I don't mean slice. I mean kick serves. Especially to girls and women. So few seem to have a good one that I think it's a bigger advantage for them than the guys, at least until they move up into serious competition.

I also insist on teaching them to hit a proper flat serve. Most people naturally hit slice so I usually don't work on that one much. They usually think their slice serve is flat. I try to get them to learn the other techniques first and then move back into the slice once they have command of the toss and technique, but everyone is different and some people go the other direction if needed.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

If you teach a spin serve in segments ... starting with the racquet drop at the racquet-back position ... ANY person ... at almost ANY physical ability ... can learn a spin serve that will work well ... which will ALSO help their ability to hit "flat" serves. A "qualified" pro working with them may be required ... plus maybe just a little upper body workout ... or ... yoga class for the "stiff ones" ~ MG

 

[TennisDawg]

"just spin it in"
"all women should use a slice serve as a first serve"
"why don't you have a spin serve?"
"okay, I am going to have you change your first serve to a spin serve"
"you need to get the first serve in so I want you to spin it in"
"doesn't matter if it is fast as long as it has a lot of spin"

All things I have heard teaching pros say to teams of women. I don't think I have ever heard one say the same to men but I probably wasn't listening.

I have seen pros tell a team of women they all MUST have a spin serve before even looking at any of the players' serves and evaluating.

Why?

For the record I have a good serve. I win 90% of my service matches in ladies' league at 3.5 and 4.0. I will rarely drop my serve in mixed at 7.0, 7.5 or 8.0.
I hit a flat but good margin hard first serve. I have had it clocked on 3 different occasions. Most recently was in the low to mid 80s average. (as low as 82 one over 90 but it was an outlier)
I can place it either to the T, out wide or to the body.
I land it better than 60% on the 1st

On my second I do one of two things:
Good day: Just hit another 1st ... I don't care if I DF a few times in a match.
Bad day: I toss a little bit more behind me, come up on it a bit and has some top/slice ... good margin over the net .. clocked at 65-70, easy to place to the T either side ... cannot hit this one wide with accuracy.

Why do teaching pros insist on all women learning this weak spin serve? They are relatively easy to return. They pose little threat at 3.5 or 4.0.

Aren’t you hitting a spin second serve?

 

[jm1980]

You're 100% right. There are a couple of guys at my club with massive first serves, well over 6 foot, who are easy to beat because they insist on hitting two first serves. All you have to do is hold your own serve and wait for them to self destruct. You can guarantee they will double fault at least one service game away.

If using two first serves worked, the pros would do it.

Someone did the math based on ATP stats, and there were only two pros who would (mathematically) benefit from hitting two first serves: Karlovic and Isner

 

[OnTheLine]

Aren’t you hitting a spin second serve?

I am of sorts ... it is basically my combination flat with top slice ... however it is not the type of spin serve that a recent team coach wanted me to be hitting.

 

[OnTheLine]

OP, please reconsider your "all coaches" rant. I only teach a spin (top or slice) serve to those players who are willing to take the time and make the effort to learn it, otherwise we practice other aspects of their game.

(And why the polemics? I've been coaching for 25 years. In my experience "all coaches" don't give instructions in lockstep).

I fear you have misread my intention. And definitely not wanting to come across disparaging coaches ... nor considering them homogeneous. If I did, definitely apologize.

At no point did I say "all coaches". Additionally, a statement with All, None, Always or Never is patently false.

I have had coaches in a one-on-one situation who are more interested in having me get better racquet drop, stay on edge a bit longer and adjust the serve I have and have worked with me to add additional pace as well as margin.

Only speaking of coaches that are teaching a team of women and seem to want to teach the spin serve above all else.
(I would differentiate this spin serve from a slice) And wondering why.

There are some good points from others as to reasons a teaching pro would do so.

If you were to look at most of my posts about coaches/teaching pros I have almost entirely glowing things to say about the group as a whole and the benefits of taking lessons or clinics. I have been blessed to have some good ones and even a mediocre one I will learn something from.

 

[TagUrIt]

Everyone here is speculating and giving their opinions, (with all sincerity) did you ever consider just asking the pro your question?

 

[Morch Us]

Of course, you weren't listening. It is not a men women thing. It is told to a lot of 3.5 men and 4.0 women the same way, mostly encouraging them to topspin their serve and keep hitting their second serves till it gets groved. Till about 3.5 man and 4.0 woman, you don't have the quality of shots to make full use of spin, whether it is serve or ground strokes. But beyond that a person would have to hold yourself down to keep the balls in with flat. With spin, he/she can convert some of that to spin, and based on the strength/timing/contact/confidence of the player a varying about of "energy" would be converted to spin vs drive.

Of course a 3.0 male or 3.5 female topspin serve as well as topspin ground stroke is "weak" since it took away drive from an already less driven ball. But that builds a base on understanding this "conversion" and hopefully help him/her in future.

The exceptions would be, someone we know are really weak and is not going to be able to progress beyond the current level. It is silly to ask to learn a spin serve, because they can never develop that power needed to make use of the potential of a spin serve. Or otherwise, power would never become a limiting factor for them to consistently place their service in.

probably wasn't listening.

Why do teaching pros insist on all women learning this weak spin serve? They are relatively easy to return. They pose little threat at 3.5 or 4.0.

 

[Morch Us]

Unfortunately there is nothing called a "good margin" "hard" flat serve. The single reason why they were good margin was because they were not hard enough. Are you sure you cannot hit harder than that? Try hitting directly on the fence without bounce from your serve motion. That is "hard serve".

A hard serve is not just measured by the amount of speed on the ball (even though that is indicative), but the amount of energy on the ball. Everyone who can hit hard enough to land a serve directly on the fence is holding back or going low margin to put the serve in the service box, when hitting a pure flat serve. And they all will benefit from spin serves to transfer more of that energy to the ball, and hit with confidence.

I hit a flat but good margin hard first serve.

 

[xFullCourtTenniSx]

More spin first serves lead to higher first serve percentages. Higher first serve percentage often leads to easier service games. Easier service games means you can apply more pressure on return games. Most people find it easier to place the ball well/aggressively on their first serve because there is less pressure. As a result, they can still pressure most returners just by being able to threaten the ability to hit all the important spots and start off a point in a better position. On a second serve, if you're missing the ability to hit to every spot while maintaining quality, the returner can be more assertive on the return. If you can hit assertive spin serves to all the important spots and only occasionally having to resort to a second serve, you will hold serve much more easily than trying to hammer serves to the important spots and frequently having to resort to a conservative second serve. Federer and Murray average half the RPM on their first serve compared to their second serve. Yes, there is some variance due to the range of spin that can exist on the first serve ("flat" serves are probably closer to around 1000 RPM while slice serves are closer to 3000 RPM), but each first serve has a good amount of spin on it because it increases consistency.

In the end, it's all about the ceiling for growth you want to have for your game. The higher you go, the more that second serve is going to hinder your chances of winning. At that point, it will be pretty clear how critical it is to have a good spin serve you can place on any location while occasionally being able to take some pace off the first serve and spin them in.

Additionally, a statement with All, None, Always or Never is patently false.

The paradoxically, this statement is only true if it includes itself.

 

[Enga]

Coaches are more likely to tell women how to play I suspect. Men would pushback a lot and not want to change, and women would be more receptive to critique. Obviously Im stereotyping, but thats just what I think.

As for why they want everyone, not just women, to learn spinny serves, its because spin serves are the best type of serve. They can be ramped up indefinitely, and it teaches you variety. Also, you do not ever want to double fault, and spin serves is how youre gonna avoid it without doing weak serves.

 

[movdqa]

I think that the slice serve is the easiest to teach and get the ball in with a high percentage. I see a lot of women with pancake serves that are essentially flat and they miss a lot of first serves. They're not all that effective, even when they go in. Women, on average, are shorter as well and spin serves have a better chance of getting into the service box.

That said, I'm 5'10" and 98% of my serves are spin serves with about 95% kick and 3% slice. I've watched Federer for a long time and I think that all of his serves are spin serves - I don't think that I've ever seen him hit a flat serve.

 

[blablavla]

That said, I'm 5'10" and 98% of my serves are spin serves with about 95% kick and 3% slice. I've watched Federer for a long time and I think that all of his serves are spin serves - I don't think that I've ever seen him hit a flat serve.

agree, the difference being that his 1st serve has less spin than the second serve, yet it is far from a flat serve

 

[movdqa]

agree, the difference being that his 1st serve has less spin than the second serve, yet it is far from a flat serve

And then there's Nadal. He usually hits a ton of spin on the serve. Sometimes he dials back the spin a bit so that there's more pace but I don't think he hits flat serves at all.