Why don't players get how to warmup/rally?

[LaZeR]

... (his buddies were really cheering him on everytime he 'won' a point in the rally)...

His audience and fan base was at the courts waiting for an opponent to show up??

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The way you ask isn't intended to illicit cooperation. "Hey what's the score over there" is certainly not going to be received well (nor would you expect to). It's "snark", pure and simple.

I'm being serious. If you want to have a good hitting session with someone that doesn't understand the "normal etiquette", best way is to stop the hitting session, talk to the guy, and come to an understanding. And to do it in a good natured way. For example, after the guy smashes a winner into the corner (or whatever), just let the ball go and let him know your expectations. There's a good chance he simply doesn't understand.

Sometimes when a lower player hits with a better player, they feel they have to prove themselves by hitting hard and into the corners. To show the better player that they are "good". In my experience, this is often the reason they do it. As the better player, explain to them what the expectations are of a rally.

And you don't need to let them know that you're the alpha dog either (by challenging them to a set). The whole idea of a warm-up or rally of this kind is the absence of competition and mutual cooperation. It's a two way street (if you really want it to work).

i was being snarky (by that point they've already a handful of "winners")
yeah, i could take the high road, and talk to them, and ask them to cooperate... but to me i was operating on the notion, "do onto others..."
words speak louder than words... and when i'm running down shanks landing outside the doubles alley, and hitting swinging volleys from the baseline, to keep the rally going, it should be "obvious" that hitting an overhead into the open court might not be a good way to reciprocate.
but if someone can't figure that out... then i don't have the patience to teach them. best to just end the session or play real points.

do you ever run into folks like this, and talk to them about it? do they actually change - or do they jump to, "ok, let's just play a set"

 

[Deleted member 23235]

His audience and fan base was at the courts waiting for an opponent to show up??

it's a pick up group...
ie. courts where you can just show up and find someone to hit with.. (and yeah, people go without a partner, hoping someone will show up to hit with)

[edit] the place i go, is a bit like the san pablo courts that @LeeD talks about,... minus the guns.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It's common for people to keep a notebook in their tennis bag with little reminders of maybe how to hit their serve or forehand. In my tennis notebook, the very first page is one large word. HUMILITY.

I got this from reading Pancho Segura's book. In it, he has a section devoted to the idea that you need to be humble and respectful of all opponents and partners NO MATTER WHAT. He explains how "you aren't good enough to have an attitude on the tennis court".

https://www.amazon.com/Pancho-Seguras-Championship-strategy-winning/dp/0070560404

Anyway, it's some of the best advice I've ever gotten (both for tennis and for life). I'm certainly not perfect in my practice of it. I never will be. But as long as I'm aiming in that direction, I think I'm on the right track.

And I firmly believe everyone can tell the difference if you approach them with humility or arrogance. And they return in kind what is offered them. In other words, if you treat them with respect they will almost always do the same. And I don't just mean hitting the ball down the middle of the court to them in warm-ups. I mean the entire picture.

Try it. It works. And you'll enjoy tennis (and life) much more.

lol, i was gonna say i'm gonna buy/read it.... but it's like $150 for a used copy.

 

[r2473]

lol, i was gonna say i'm gonna buy/read it.... but it's like $150 for a used copy.

That's because he died. Last year it was $20.

i was being snarky (by that point they've already a handful of "winners")
yeah, i could take the high road, and talk to them, and ask them to cooperate... but to me i was operating on the notion, "do onto others..."
words speak louder than words... and when i'm running down shanks landing outside the doubles alley, and hitting swinging volleys from the baseline, to keep the rally going, it should be "obvious" that hitting an overhead into the open court might not be a good way to reciprocate.
but if someone can't figure that out... then i don't have the patience to teach them. best to just end the session or play real points.

do you ever run into folks like this, and talk to them about it? do they actually change - or do they jump to, "ok, let's just play a set"

They always listen, provided I speak to them with the right attitude myself. People will almost always return in kind what you give them. So if you give them snark, they give snark back. If you give them attitude, they give attitude back. But if you suggest to them "in good spirit and with humble heart" that hitting should be a cooperative effort, they will almost always be cooperative. No "passive aggressive" behavior. Everybody knows what you are doing. Nobody is a jerk to someone that is really being nice to them. But if you are "nice" to them (but really being snarky), they can tell the difference. And they won't be nice.

It helps to smile as you speak to them. Keep the mood light. Give them every reason to cooperate and no reason to be a jerk. I can almost assure you, after you take the first step, they will reciprocate and the remainder of the hitting session will be much more fun for you both.

Remember the key word. Humility.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

That's because he died. Last year it was $20.


They always listen, provided I speak to them with the right attitude myself. People will almost always return in kind what you give them. So if you give them snark, they give snark back. If you give them attitude, they give attitude back. But if you suggest to them "in good spirit and with humble heart" that hitting should be a cooperative effort, they will almost always be cooperative. Nobody is a jerk to someone that is really being nice to them. But if you are "nice" to them (but really being snarky), they can tell the difference. And they won't be nice.

It helps to smile as you speak to them. Keep the mood light. Give them every reason to cooperate and no reason to be a jerk. I can almost assure you, after you take the first step, they will reciprocate and the remainder of the hitting session will be much more fun for you both.

Remember the key word. Humility.

ok fair enough... always liked your posts (even the non-bacon ones)... i'll give a try if it happens (though, these days, i avoid public park pickup games with folks i don't know - maybe i'll look for an opp just to test it out)

 

[rh310]

Seriously...people kinda get wrapped up in their own mental image of their game instead of the reality of their games. [...]
'Tis why I really love video. You get to slap them with reality.

Yep. The camera doesn't lie.

 

[Ronaldo]

it's a pick up group...
ie. courts where you can just show up and find someone to hit with.. (and yeah, people go without a partner, hoping someone will show up to hit with)

Hey, he's not a player he just crush a lot! Don't try to make him into something he is not! He just crush a lot! Not Quite exactly what you think you thought! Word!

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Hey, he's not a player he just crush a lot! Don't try to make him into something he is not! He just crush a lot! Not Quite exactly what you think you thought! Word!

lol, Big Pun

 

[Ronaldo]

lol, Big Pun

 

[Deleted member 23235]

That's because he died. Last year it was $20.


They always listen, provided I speak to them with the right attitude myself. People will almost always return in kind what you give them. So if you give them snark, they give snark back. If you give them attitude, they give attitude back. But if you suggest to them "in good spirit and with humble heart" that hitting should be a cooperative effort, they will almost always be cooperative. No "passive aggressive" behavior. Everybody knows what you are doing. Nobody is a jerk to someone that is really being nice to them. But if you are "nice" to them (but really being snarky), they can tell the difference. And they won't be nice.

It helps to smile as you speak to them. Keep the mood light. Give them every reason to cooperate and no reason to be a jerk. I can almost assure you, after you take the first step, they will reciprocate and the remainder of the hitting session will be much more fun for you both.

Remember the key word. Humility.

tried it.
fail.

went to the public courts to hit serves...
guy asks to hit...
we hit...
he starts going for winners, matador, etc,...
I ask if we could just hit cooperatively. and to stop the ball or continue the rally on long balls.
he says, “you should just keep it in the court. let’s just play (a set)”.

the issue IMO is:
a) beyond the warmup, im aiming deep, with moderate pace, and 3.5-4.0 are just used to hitting service line balls... so can’t handle it
b) they don’t believe at some point that it’s possible to keep so many balls going in a rally (they can’t and have to end the pressure with a winner or forcing shot)

I could keep the rally going, intentionally hitting short, but now that’s training bad habits, so a waste of time.

maybe it’s a ny thing, and maybe you’re from the south or something, but your method doesn’t work. actually find it hard to believe you’ve actually done what you’re saying,.. unless you’re basically being a ball feeder for them (ie hitting slowish pace balls that land it their strikezone, like I might do with my wife and kids)

100% better off declining offers to hit unless I know you can hit.

 

[r2473]

tried it.
fail.

went to the public courts to hit serves...
guy asks to hit...
we hit...
he starts going for winners, matador, etc,...
I ask if we could just hit cooperatively. and to stop the ball or continue the rally on long balls.
he says, “you should just keep it in the court. let’s just play”.

the issue IMO is:
a) beyond the warmup, im aiming deep, with moderate pace, and 3.5-4.0 are just used to hitting service line balls... so can’t handle it
b) they don’t believe at some point that it’s possible to keep so many balls going in a rally (they can’t and have to end the pressure with a winner or forcing shot)

I could keep the rally going, intentionally hitting short, but now that’s training bad habits, so a waste of time.

maybe it’s a ny thing, and maybe you’re from the south or something, but your method doesn’t work. actually find it hard to believe you’ve actually done what you’re saying,.. unless you’re basically being a ball feeder for them (ie hitting slowish pace balls that land it their strikezone, like I might do with my wife and kids)

100% better off declining offers to hit unless I know you can hit.

Ok, if it doesn’t work it doesn’t work

 

[Chadillac]

100% better off declining offers to hit unless I know you can hit.

Just be honest, tell him you would prefer to hit serve's since he cannot ralley, thanks for trying though.

 

[zalive]

tried it.
fail.

went to the public courts to hit serves...
guy asks to hit...
we hit...
he starts going for winners, matador, etc,...
I ask if we could just hit cooperatively. and to stop the ball or continue the rally on long balls.
he says, “you should just keep it in the court. let’s just play”.

the issue IMO is:
a) beyond the warmup, im aiming deep, with moderate pace, and 3.5-4.0 are just used to hitting service line balls... so can’t handle it
b) they don’t believe at some point that it’s possible to keep so many balls going in a rally (they can’t and have to end the pressure with a winner or forcing shot)

I could keep the rally going, intentionally hitting short, but now that’s training bad habits, so a waste of time.

maybe it’s a ny thing, and maybe you’re from the south or something, but your method doesn’t work. actually find it hard to believe you’ve actually done what you’re saying,.. unless you’re basically being a ball feeder for them (ie hitting slowish pace balls that land it their strikezone, like I might do with my wife and kids)

100% better off declining offers to hit unless I know you can hit.

or:
c) they find their benefit in hitting like in a match situation during a practice session

I don't see a problem with c) (it's just a different concept of a practice session), I see problem if they're not cooperative enough to accept part of the session time hitting the way their partner wants it. However, the other side is are you cooperative enough to accept their concept part of the session time, or you just want to hit your way?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I usually try to start cooperatively but after 5 or 6 shots I usually try to up the power still hitting back to partner. After a few more shots I may go away from partner for winner. Next ball i'll wait for opponent to finish the point. I probably should work on just rallying more but it is more fun to run around and feel the pressure.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

or:
c) they find their benefit in hitting like in a match situation during a practice session

I don't see a problem with c) (it's just a different concept of a practice session), I see problem if they're not cooperative enough to accept part of the session time hitting the way their partner wants it. However, the other side is are you cooperative enough to accept their concept part of the session time, or you just want to hit your way?

i'm all for kinds of practice sessions, but if i just ran down a ball, that landed outside the doubles alley, to keep the rally going, and the next shot is a cc winner into the opposite "open" court - and if someone is too stupid to realize that is neither practice nor cooperative... then it's obvious why that person sucks at tennis (because no good players will do that)

with all my normal hitting partners, the typical practice...
* first 10 min mini (cooperative!)
* 40 min... cooperative hitting from baseline (adding in volleys, oh)
* next 30 min... usually a baseline game of some sort (ie. "live" after the feed, no winners on the first shot) - and yeah, we both get to hit winners whenever.
* serve out tie breaks (or generally get in serve & return practice)

sounds like the way you practice is to start counting points without telling your partner... you know, to give yourself and edge to win...

 

[Hmgraphite1]

Yeah always try to give 2-3 volleys to opponent if they come in during practice but try to pass them if they got their fair share. If I run them wide I hit back to them to keep ball going. But after not trying winners ever its good to throw a few in.

 

[zalive]

i'm all for kinds of practice sessions, but if i just ran down a ball, that landed outside the doubles alley, to keep the rally going, and the next shot is a cc winner into the opposite "open" court - and if someone is too stupid to realize that is neither practice nor cooperative... then it's obvious why that person sucks at tennis (because no good players will do that)

with all my normal hitting partners, the typical practice...
* first 10 min mini (cooperative!)
* 40 min... cooperative hitting from baseline (adding in volleys, oh)
* next 30 min... usually a baseline game of some sort (ie. "live" after the feed, no winners on the first shot) - and yeah, we both get to hit winners whenever.
* serve out tie breaks (or generally get in serve & return practice)

sounds like the way you practice is to start counting points without telling your partner... you know, to give yourself and edge to win...

I like your plan.
Well then the trouble with that hitting guy is that he's just too below your level, more than his idea of hitting against. If he was your level those ball would at least land in in majority of situtions. But let's suppose what if they did usually land in? One thing is his quality, the other thing is his idea of practice.

I personally don't have a plan or a schedule, I try to keep placement on most of the balls aimed to my hitting partner (especially first 3-4 balls), however in a nice situation after some exchanges and in a situation I don't mind hitting out of reach - I need to practice the short angles, hitting corners, redirecting etc. When facing a hard hit I like to hit against it as hard as I can regardless of if I can make it in or not - sometimes I succeed, sometimes not - but it's ideal to practice what I wouldn't do when we count points (where winning it is on mind). This is my vision of a hitting practice, to practice different situations, with an accent on what you don't usually practice when you want think percentages when you have an opportunity. I also sometimes even return retrieved balls to my partner giving him the opportunity to keep attacking me hard - perfect to practice footwork and setting up in lack of time. All in all in other words, I try to be cooperative, I'd always listen to my hitting partner's ideas and wishes on what he wanted to practice (he rarely makes any suggestion, though, so we manage without words), but not at any shot and any situation. I try to balance benefits. And as hitting session progresses and our percentages get better and better, I like to induce more risk and more 'spraying' all over the court. Great for fitness too.

Hahah, but my usual hitting partner (whenever him and me make time to hit against each other), he likes to topspin 'moonballs' (not quite moonballs, let's say topspin balls with limited but existing pace deep in the court which bounce typically to my head height). This is his match game and this is what he likes to practice. I like this too because it's excellent opportunity to hit against those...but those are anything but easy to control if you want to attack or play in a similar manner, with good topspin and depth yet in control). What's hard is to get into hitting rythm against such, but what can I do? I better learn to hit good against those so I won't have trouble to get into rythm even against those. Oh and whenever he pulls me to the corner and in front he likes to flat hit the next one deep DTL where I'm nowhere near why he does it? He practices winners and points from such situation, he doesn't care for 'winning', he's better than me anyway, it's clear to me it's practice to him, at the same time I practice recovery from such situations, hitting back with my OHBH against those, sometimes slicing etc. Plenty of good to me. Besides, he's good enough to hit inside in majority of those situations. I don't run for balls that go outside, I let them unless I'm on the ball.

All in all in short words...I find different benefits against different practice options, but it's really not fun to practice against someone who makes way too much errors...at least for my own level merits (at my level I can hardly expect to hit 10+ decent shots with some pace in a row).

Yeah always try to give 2-3 volleys to opponent if they come in during practice but try to pass them if they got their fair share. If I run them wide I hit back to them to keep ball going. But after not trying winners ever its good to throw a few in.

I usually practice to hit the volley back to my partner, with some depth and without too much pace...I like practicing control and placement. However, when he starts hitting hard and looking for passing shots I volley or half volley any way I can

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I guess practice vs practice into playing points vs playing points. When i just play points always start with a serve, i'll serve to the deuce till a really good point then switch to add for a while after 20 to 30 pts then i'll receive. No games or keeping track of score.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I like your plan.
Well then the trouble with that hitting guy is that he's just too below your level, more than his idea of hitting against. If he was your level those ball would at least land in in majority of situtions. But let's suppose what if they did usually land in? One thing is his quality, the other thing is his idea of practice.

well that's pretty much my gripe any time i'm "hitting" with a random dude at the park (typically low 4.0 and below)
in contrast i met up with a random guy at the club that was looking to hit... turns out he was a 40-something ex-d1, and there were no misccommunications about "how to practice"... without saying anything we (he initiatied) transitioning from mini, baseline coop, ground stroke games, tie breaks/sets, etc... my point is, anyone good knows "practice etiquette"... only crappy players make up their own selfish "practice scenarios" (ie. they just want a ball feeder).

I personally don't have a plan or a schedule,

maybe this is the huge difference between good and not so good... personally i always have a plan, and 1-2 specific goals for my work out... it's not just a random hit.
and if my goal that day, is say, conditioning,... we might play a game where i can only hit to one side, and they get to practice changing direction... then we switch. the drill is specific (not some random, well, i'll just hit a winner anytime i want (and i'm setup perfectly for it)...

I try to keep placement on most of the balls aimed to my hitting partner (especially first 3-4 balls), however in a nice situation after some exchanges and in a situation I don't mind hitting out of reach - I need to practice the short angles, hitting corners, redirecting etc. When facing a hard hit I like to hit against it as hard as I can regardless of if I can make it in or not - sometimes I succeed, sometimes not - but it's ideal to practice what I wouldn't do when we count points (where winning it is on mind). This is my vision of a hitting practice, to practice different situations, with an accent on what you don't usually practice when you want think percentages when you have an opportunity. I also sometimes even return retrieved balls to my partner giving him the opportunity to keep attacking me hard - perfect to practice footwork and setting up in lack of time. All in all in other words, I try to be cooperative, I'd always listen to my hitting partner's ideas and wishes on what he wanted to practice (he rarely makes any suggestion, though, so we manage without words), but not at any shot and any situation. I try to balance benefits. And as hitting session progresses and our percentages get better and better, I like to induce more risk and more 'spraying' all over the court. Great for fitness too.

i get the "practice random"... but if you want to make an impact, i suggest you isolate... practicing a specific random shot, once... is not gonna ingrain anything... if you're working on hitting short angles, and returning short angles, modify the drill to isolate that (ie. i will setup a square on the sideT, and we'll "award" whoever hits the square 2-5pts in the context of say a cc rally)

Hahah, but my usual hitting partner (whenever him and me make time to hit against each other), he likes to topspin 'moonballs' (not quite moonballs, let's say topspin balls with limited but existing pace deep in the court which bounce typically to my head height). This is his match game and this is what he likes to practice. I like this too because it's excellent opportunity to hit against those...but those are anything but easy to control if you want to attack or play in a similar manner, with good topspin and depth yet in control). What's hard is to get into hitting rythm against such, but what can I do?

there's a guy i play that hits' just like that... i love/hate playing him. in a match, i'll win 2,2, but in a cc baseline game, i lose every time, because i'm hitting "out" and he's lobbing moon balls back. funny thing is that i've tried introducing drills where he has to hit out, but he's not interested, so i just cater the drills to something he's very good at (makes him feel good), and let's me work on something i need more work on (ie. consistency "hitting out")

I better learn to hit good against those so I won't have trouble to get into rythm even against those. Oh and whenever he pulls me to the corner and in front he likes to flat hit the next one deep DTL where I'm nowhere near why he does it? He practices winners and points from such situation, he doesn't care for 'winning', he's better than me anyway, it's clear to me it's practice to him, at the same time I practice recovery from such situations, hitting back with my OHBH against those, sometimes slicing etc. Plenty of good to me. Besides, he's good enough to hit inside in majority of those situations. I don't run for balls that go outside, I let them unless I'm on the ball.

All in all in short words...I find different benefits against different practice options, but it's really not fun to practice against someone who makes way too much errors...at least for my own level merits (at my level I can hardly expect to hit 10+ decent shots with some pace in a row).

i'm all for "different practice options" but you should be practicing them in isolation... you want to "install" the correct response, not just get lucky, and fool yourself into thinking you could do it on game day.

I usually practice to hit the volley back to my partner, with some depth and without too much pace...I like practicing control and placement. However, when he starts hitting hard and looking for passing shots I volley or half volley any way I can

 

[Phantasm]

i'm all for kinds of practice sessions, but if i just ran down a ball, that landed outside the doubles alley, to keep the rally going, and the next shot is a cc winner into the opposite "open" court - and if someone is too stupid to realize that is neither practice nor cooperative... then it's obvious why that person sucks at tennis (because no good players will do that)

with all my normal hitting partners, the typical practice...
* first 10 min mini (cooperative!)
* 40 min... cooperative hitting from baseline (adding in volleys, oh)
* next 30 min... usually a baseline game of some sort (ie. "live" after the feed, no winners on the first shot) - and yeah, we both get to hit winners whenever.
* serve out tie breaks (or generally get in serve & return practice)

sounds like the way you practice is to start counting points without telling your partner... you know, to give yourself and edge to win...

Man I wish you'd share some of your hitting partners. This is how I'd like my practices to be . It's like 50/50 for me though... The 2nd step for me might be shorter as I do mostly baseline stuff and very short volley/overhead warmup ( I should do more cause I suck at net...)

Most of the people I hit with apart from a few quality partners think after the mini -warmup, its HAM time and just trying to crush balls into me or winners...
I just want to stay loose and get in the flow of hitting fuller swings and engaging my legs/hip more in the stroke when I initally move back to baseline.

I don't know if it's cause I've started hitting deeper balls more consistently as I've been working on my weight transfer and earlier contact point away from my body. Maybe that's causing my partners to spray more or feel the need to back harder or what...

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Man I wish you'd share some of your hitting partners. This is how I'd like my practices to be . It's like 50/50 for me though... The 2nd step for me might be shorter as I do mostly baseline stuff and very short volley/overhead warmup ( I should do more cause I suck at net...)

Most of the people I hit with apart from a few quality partners think after the mini -warmup, its HAM time and just trying to crush balls into me or winners...
I just want to stay loose and get in the flow of hitting fuller swings and engaging my legs/hip more in the stroke when I initally move back to baseline.

I don't know if it's cause I've started hitting deeper balls more consistently as I've been working on my weight transfer and earlier contact point away from my body. Maybe that's causing my partners to spray more or feel the need to back harder or what...

depth will make me spray... but i just move back, get more loft, etc... i'm certainly not trying to hit faster,... instead, same swing, shortbackswing, with more topspin
i recall when i was younger, playing a much better kid, thinking that anything deep was an accident, and no way they could it regularly (they could), so i'd try to counter by hitting a winner, or harder, or whatever... anything but admit that the kid was hitting a difficult ball, and i should use the opportunity to learn how to counter it.
now that i think of it... i'm sure i did the "matador" too (but at least i was like a teen), to show my opp their shot was out, instead of continuing the rally.

fast forward... to now, this drill (or variations of it) are common in my hitting sessions:

, ie. intentionally hitting deep.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

well that's pretty much my gripe any time i'm "hitting" with a random dude at the park (typically low 4.0 and below)
in contrast i met up with a random guy at the club that was looking to hit... turns out he was a 40-something ex-d1, and there were no misccommunications about "how to practice"... without saying anything we (he initiatied) transitioning from mini, baseline coop, ground stroke games, tie breaks/sets, etc... my point is, anyone good knows "practice etiquette"... only crappy players make up their own selfish "practice scenarios" (ie. they just want a ball feeder).

maybe this is the huge difference between good and not so good... personally i always have a plan, and 1-2 specific goals for my work out... it's not just a random hit.
and if my goal that day, is say, conditioning,... we might play a game where i can only hit to one side, and they get to practice changing direction... then we switch. the drill is specific (not some random, well, i'll just hit a winner anytime i want (and i'm setup perfectly for it)...

i get the "practice random"... but if you want to make an impact, i suggest you isolate... practicing a specific random shot, once... is not gonna ingrain anything... if you're working on hitting short angles, and returning short angles, modify the drill to isolate that (ie. i will setup a square on the sideT, and we'll "award" whoever hits the square 2-5pts in the context of say a cc rally)

there's a guy i play that hits' just like that... i love/hate playing him. in a match, i'll win 2,2, but in a cc baseline game, i lose every time, because i'm hitting "out" and he's lobbing moon balls back. funny thing is that i've tried introducing drills where he has to hit out, but he's not interested, so i just cater the drills to something he's very good at (makes him feel good), and let's me work on something i need more work on (ie. consistency "hitting out")

i'm all for "different practice options" but you should be practicing them in isolation... you want to "install" the correct response, not just get lucky, and fool yourself into thinking you could do it on game day.

This...

Stranger and practice etiquette
I'll even go as far as to say that a good player who had proper training would understand "practice etiquette". Even strangers! You'd meet up, communicate what either of you wants to work on, and it's understood.

Good/Not good
- Ball bashing does me no good. Anyone can hit the ball as hard as possible, but can you do so with control, accuracy, and precision (Yes, they're different, look it up)? If me and my partner arranged to have a practice session, we tell each other what sort of drills we'd like to take turn participating. And at minimum, I have these sessions where we're just doing drill at least once a week.
- The only time where I meet up for a practice, and we're just hitting balls with no real purpose is if either of us are having a bad day, and our timing is off. This is the only time where 50% - 60% down the middle shots are productive

I know people who wants to warm up, and jump right into playing points. There's a time a place for that, but if I set out for a real practice session and I'm working on stuff, don't waste my time if you want to appease your own ego. I also know people who'd like to join in and totally disrupt my drills. That's why, group practice is an absolute nightmare for someone who wants to work on stuff and improve.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I know people who wants to warm up, and jump right into playing points.

side note... i've known alot of people that really hate drilling/practicing, and i think the issue is conditioning.
they don't want to blow their tank on drills, then be dog tired for the "point games" that usually bookend a practice session.
for example, in the clinics i do know, everyone sandbags the "footwork" portion of the drills, and cheat on the starting location (ie. when hitting a running fh, they don't start in the alley, and start moving before the ball is fed...
because they want to "save themselves" for the point drills (or games, etc...) they know are coming

spoke to the pros running the show, and the response, "i can't yell at the adults like i do with the juniors..."

 

[user92626]

I find that most recreational people aren't taking tennis/hitting as seriously as I do but having a ton of rules and etiquette of their own. So, it's usually best to play games or points. No your own stupid rules or etiquette. Just the traditional tennis ones. And usually people would try harder to keep the ball in or run better when the score is kept, due to pride.

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

side note... i've known alot of people that really hate drilling/practicing, and i think the issue is conditioning.
they don't want to blow their tank on drills, then be dog tired for the "point games" that usually bookend a practice session.
for example, in the clinics i do know, everyone sandbags the "footwork" portion of the drills, and cheat on the starting location (ie. when hitting a running fh, they don't start in the alley, and start moving before the ball is fed...
because they want to "save themselves" for the point drills (or games, etc...) they know are coming

spoke to the pros running the show, and the response, "i can't yell at the adults like i do with the juniors..."

Well, see I apparently have a bad rep here for not sugar coating stuff, so I didn't jump to a conclusion. But I agree with you 1000%.

Any properly trained tennis player, or athletes in general know practice sessions are generally more exhausting than the match/game itself.

I can't yell at adults, but I damn well can walk off the court. If people want to be a dick during practice, and be uncooperative and just wail at the ball as hard as they want, they can spend some time with the wall instead.

 

[donquijote]

Time before the match is to warm up. Have you ever seen a pro-player trying to hit winners purposely during warm-up? Maybe one or two total when the rally is practically over. They don't smash their overheads either. You practice your game and winners a few hours before the match or the day before. Posters who say they have the right to 'practice' their winners have no clue about this sport and sportsmanship.

Whenever I happened to have someone like that as opponent, I stop the warm-up and go directly to the match. It's super annoying.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

side note... i've known alot of people that really hate drilling/practicing, and i think the issue is conditioning.
they don't want to blow their tank on drills, then be dog tired for the "point games" that usually bookend a practice session.
for example, in the clinics i do know, everyone sandbags the "footwork" portion of the drills, and cheat on the starting location (ie. when hitting a running fh, they don't start in the alley, and start moving before the ball is fed...
because they want to "save themselves" for the point drills (or games, etc...) they know are coming

spoke to the pros running the show, and the response, "i can't yell at the adults like i do with the juniors..."

One pro will sometimes just withhold the feed and make the person go back to the correct starting point. Having just wasted energy, the player learns not to cheat. Of course, if too many people cheat, this slows down the drill which is also undesirable.

I always remember what an ex-Div I football player co-worker said his coach used to admonish: "You're only cheating yourselves."

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

Time before the match is to warm up. Have you ever seen a pro-player trying to hit winners purposely during warm-up? Maybe one or two total when the rally is practically over. They don't smash their overheads either. You practice your game and winners a few hours before the match or the day before. Posters who say they have the right to 'practice' their winners have no clue about this sport and sportsmanship.

Whenever I happened to have someone like that as opponent, I stop the warm-up and go directly to the match. It's super annoying.

I think this conversation has evolved to include general practice etiquette as well. But yes, I agree with you completely.

 

[Bender]

My routine when I go to practice / train:

1. mini tennis for about five minutes slowly increasing in pace
2. head to the baseline, maintain same pace used at the end of the mini tennis warmup
3. increase intensity, practice running around backhands, slices, non-standard forehands
4. high intensity, hit hard at each other at first then try to win the point
5. switch from down the middle / line to cross court, maintain high intensity
6. play full court, high intensity

This should take up at least one hour; the initial warmup (#1 and #2) should only take about 5-10 mins.

 

[HuusHould]

My pet peeve with guy that just want to warm-up/practice is that they seem to want to just hit down the middle. I go stand in a corner because if I'm going to warm up, I want to warm up my CC shots and they look at me like I'm from Mars when I hit their rally ball CC.

Yeah, the most annoying shots when warming up/hitting up the middle are the balls that cramp you up, especially at the net, it really annoys me the player who seems to set his sights on your right hip when warming up your volley haha

 

[zalive]

my point is, anyone good knows "practice etiquette"... only crappy players make up their own selfish "practice scenarios" (ie. they just want a ball feeder).

Perhaps coached player vs self-taught player difference? The reason behind the 'crappy player' and a good, solid player might be the difference between tennis hours quantity (plus coaching) in their background. It seems that good tennis players have good tennis background too.

i get the "practice random"... but if you want to make an impact, i suggest you isolate... practicing a specific random shot, once... is not gonna ingrain anything... if you're working on hitting short angles, and returning short angles, modify the drill to isolate that (ie. i will setup a square on the sideT, and we'll "award" whoever hits the square 2-5pts in the context of say a cc rally)

This is basically a drill, right? Nice idea and very useful too, however one needs to find that additional time to fit drills into, too...my court time is unfortunately limited. I myself would like generally to practice more but my hitting buddies prefer playing competitive matches. Luckily I have that buddy who likes to practice, and even more lucky he's better than me yet willing to practice with me. It's not that often though, we pratice once-twice a month. Anyway, let's suppose I did a drill. In this case I'd also prefer to spend some time as well to check results in a situation like playing points, but without burden to play competitive. Non counting points and hitting random situations sounds fine.

there's a guy i play that hits' just like that... i love/hate playing him. in a match, i'll win 2,2, but in a cc baseline game, i lose every time, because i'm hitting "out" and he's lobbing moon balls back. funny thing is that i've tried introducing drills where he has to hit out, but he's not interested, so i just cater the drills to something he's very good at (makes him feel good), and let's me work on something i need more work on (ie. consistency "hitting out")

How do you overcome this in a match? Is this from a serve/return quality difference between you?

 

[Chadillac]

Warm up is like a good conversationalist, doesnt try to end things aburptly, keeps things going. People often forget what they are actually doing

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Perhaps coached player vs self-taught player difference? The reason behind the 'crappy player' and a good, solid player might be the difference between tennis hours quantity (plus coaching) in their background. It seems that good tennis players have good tennis background too.

possibly... perhaps takes someone (like a coach) to teach them... i find that rec players in the park don't like taking advice unless they are paying you and/or you've established a level of credibility (which is impossilbe when you've just met them). Personally i'm always open for advice, and often ask, especially if you just kicked my arse.

This is basically a drill, right? Nice idea and very useful too, however one needs to find that additional time to fit drills into, too...my court time is unfortunately limited. I myself would like generally to practice more but my hitting buddies prefer playing competitive matches.

competition is awesome practice. just tell me we're competing (vs. competition pretending to be coop)... maybe that's my problem...once you start hitting winners, i should just stop hitting to you cooperatively... hmmm. maybe that's how i need to handle folks that don't want to coop hit.

Luckily I have that buddy who likes to practice, and even more lucky he's better than me yet willing to practice with me. It's not that often though, we pratice once-twice a month. Anyway, let's suppose I did a drill. In this case I'd also prefer to spend some time as well to check results in a situation like playing points, but without burden to play competitive. Non counting points and hitting random situations sounds fine.

playing points without competition... how's that possible?

How do you overcome this in a match? Is this from a serve/return quality difference between you?

in this version of "cc only" drill, you're not punished when you're ball lands short. the "rules" of the drill are that you can't rush the net... so there's no penalty for a short ball... the point of the drill is consistency

 

[Deleted member 23235]

One pro will sometimes just withhold the feed and make the person go back to the correct starting point. Having just wasted energy, the player learns not to cheat. Of course, if too many people cheat, this slows down the drill which is also undesirable.

I always remember what an ex-Div I football player co-worker said his coach used to admonish: "You're only cheating yourselves."

completely agree... but picture this scenario...
you're an tennis pro running a clinic with a bunch of adults who are captains in their own industries... used to doing things their way (yet surprisingly weakminded in other ways - like running on the court).
those adults are also the paying parents of 2-3 kids enrolled in their junior academy ($$$)... not to mention a walking word of mouth advertising
so it's a tricky situation for the pro, because he doesn't want to bruise egos, which could damage his business.

while the business is doing well, it's not a bolletieri or sachez-casal type academy, where they can adopt a "my way or the highway" philosophy, because there's 100 students to replace you if you decide not to come back because you're ego was bruised.

personally i'm paying the pro to be calling me out when I'm being lazy, cheating, etc...

 

[zalive]

competition is awesome practice. just tell me we're competing (vs. competition pretending to be coop)... maybe that's my problem...once you start hitting winners, i should just stop hitting to you cooperatively... hmmm. maybe that's how i need to handle folks that don't want to coop hit.

I think yes, if they hit like this they should be glad to get back same stuff. If they're not glad, they're really *rseholes...

playing points without competition... how's that possible?

By not counting/keeping score.

in this version of "cc only" drill, you're not punished when you're ball lands short. the "rules" of the drill are that you can't rush the net... so there's no penalty for a short ball... the point of the drill is consistency

I was referring to you saying you beat this guy in a match by 2,2, I was interested in your tactics and with what you make a difference. Serve/return mainly, or some other way?

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Well, see I apparently have a bad rep here for not sugar coating stuff, so I didn't jump to a conclusion. But I agree with you 1000%.

Any properly trained tennis player, or athletes in general know practice sessions are generally more exhausting than the match/game itself.

I can't yell at adults, but I damn well can walk off the court. If people want to be a dick during practice, and be uncooperative and just wail at the ball as hard as they want, they can spend some time with the wall instead.

lol, i want you running my practices
granted, some of these guys are older... since the clinic is not cheap $100 for 2h, the age range tends to be 35-55
but some of the 50+ crowd spend alot of time just chit chatting like women...
even if you can't keep up with the younger in shape 35y... keep trying/moving at your own pace,.. but keep moving!
if you have to rest, do so, but then be explosive next time it's your turn.

+1 "practice is much more exhausting than match play"

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I was referring to you saying you beat this guy in a match by 2,2, I was interested in your tactics and with what you make a difference. Serve/return mainly, or some other way?

yes, i explained, that the cc drill doesn't allow you to come to net...
#1 reason i beat him in a match... he hits a short ball, i hit a forcing shot to the open court, and approach the net, and finish with a volley/oh.
i think the match would be much closer if i stayed back and tried to out rally him (my groundies are not that good/consistent to consistently win 10 shot rallies).

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

lol, i want you running my practices
granted, some of these guys are older... since the clinic is not cheap $100 for 2h, the age range tends to be 35-55
but some of the 50+ crowd spend alot of time just chit chatting like women...
even if you can't keep up with the younger in shape 35y... keep trying/moving at your own pace,.. but keep moving!
if you have to rest, do so, but then be explosive next time it's your turn.

+1 "practice is much more exhausting than match play"

See, I play on public courts where I usually have to wait a little bit to get a court, so I do all of my chit-chatting there. We'll have a nice chat when we sit for water too.

But once we're on the court, me and my partners have a mutual understanding that, we're practicing, but we're also taking it seriously. I don't think we even look at each other during ball pickups. And I'm fine with that.

 

[West Coast Ace]

Man I wish you'd share some of your hitting partners.

Two words: ball machine.

I’m w @nytennisaddict - I’m out of the hit w strangers biz - waste of time. And it’s not communicating- I don’t know how many times I’ve said (to people who claimed or looked like they knew how to play) “let’s rally, waist high ball and see how many 50 shot rallies we can have” only to get **** hit back at me. Life’s too short.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I don’t know how many times I’ve said (to people who claimed or looked like they knew how to play) “let’s rally, waist high ball and see how many 50 shot rallies we can have” only to get **** hit back at me. Life’s too short.

Like this at 4:05?

 

[heninfan99]

This poster agrees
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/i-no-longer-play-with-other-people.572637/

I've decided to simply forego playing any form of tennis that involves other people. I'm sick of it. Sick of people and their terrible hacker technique, their applauding some mishit that happens to go in for a winner, their lack of appreciation when I offer them advice. I stopped playing matches against people two years ago, but these days I won't even rally with people. I'm not here to chase down spinless lobs and bunts from decelerating half-strokes. I want good, topspin groundstrokes hit to me and I will return such shots in kind. I don't want lame excuses and polite evasion when I offer to help you with your game.

Me, a racquet, and a hundred balls in the hopper is my idea of perfect tennis. I can serve, drop feed, etc. on my terms, without some public park hack ruining my form. Not to say I wouldn't, hypothetically, play with somebody else again, but I expect such a person to approach the game with a serious attitude and an ambition to improve, not just use the game for summer exercise or time-killing recreation.

Two words: ball machine.

I’m w @nytennisaddict - I’m out of the hit w strangers biz - waste of time. And it’s not communicating- I don’t know how many times I’ve said (to people who claimed or looked like they knew how to play) “let’s rally, waist high ball and see how many 50 shot rallies we can have” only to get **** hit back at me. Life’s too short.

 

[zalive]

Why not hitting with reliable partners?

 

[West Coast Ace]

Like this at 4:05?

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, 4:05 is a real gem.

This poster agrees
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/i-no-longer-play-with-other-people.572637/

That’s extreme. I still hit with people I know or come recommended and play sets; just done doing the Nice Tennis Person thing. The ball machine is always ready and good for a reliable hitting session.

 

[heninfan99]

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, 4:05 is a real gem.

That’s extreme. I still hit with people I know or come recommended and play sets; just done doing the Nice Tennis Person thing. The ball machine is always ready and good for a reliable hitting session.

Agree

 

[TheBoom]

Its all about mind games. tilt them before the match even starts

 

[Simon_the_furry]

What I like to do in practice is go for about 7 rally balls or so before I try to get aggressive. I think real practice should contain cooperative shots as well as a little bit of an attempt to kill the ball.

 

[Phantasm]

Two words: ball machine.

I’m w @nytennisaddict - I’m out of the hit w strangers biz - waste of time. And it’s not communicating- I don’t know how many times I’ve said (to people who claimed or looked like they knew how to play) “let’s rally, waist high ball and see how many 50 shot rallies we can have” only to get **** hit back at me. Life’s too short.

I have definitely gone with the ball machine a number of times than choosing to hit with people at times just its cause more productive...

Unfortunately the ball machine I use at my local place is full of dead balls. Can't complain though since I have access to one. I use ball machine more to practice proper technique/contact point/weight transfer and aim for targets rather than trying to blast winners on dead balls..

Again, there's no beating a good hitting partner who'll hit a good mix of shots to you, make me move around a bit so I can work on my footwork as well whereas a ball machine basically always hits in a set pattern.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Like this at 4:05?

that was hilarious.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

What I like to do in practice is go for about 7 rally balls or so before I try to get aggressive. I think real practice should contain cooperative shots as well as a little bit of an attempt to kill the ball.

lol, i'm all for that... however... i'll say, "ok, let's play a live ball after the 7 hit", then play out the point.
what most people do:
a) never tell the other person the "rule" (where's the cooperation in that?) OR
b) 1,2,<sitter> winner (what happened to 7?)