Why is grass hated soo much?

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Bruguera did not win the French Open based on fitness. I bet you anything, I have the tapes to prove it.

He obliterated Leconte at the French only one year after Leconte made the semis, and Leconte did NOT tank this match. He, in fact, came out fired up and playing very close to his best. By the end, however, Bruguera was passing him at will, and Leconte actually looked embarrassed in the end...lost 6-0 in the third, this after having lost the second 6-1. Lest you think this was a fluke, he played Leconte INDOORS in Paris in one of Leconte's most spirited matches in years and STILL beat him. Leconte honestly played VERY close to his best in this match, the crowd support was ridiculous, he gave as much as he possibly could; and by the third rolled around, Bruguera still outclassed him. It was not at all with power topspin either. Almost the entire match, Bruguera came up with unbelievable passing shots and FINESSE topspin passes. Leconte TWICE stopped to applaud Bruguera's shots in this match. The angles on the pass he created were not by lack of skill as you want to believe.

It amazes me that people still buy into the stereotype that Bruguera was not talented, just FIT, and that topspin is not a talent. Has anyone ever TRIED to hit with Bruguera's technique? If you have, tell me just how easy it is. Let's see you time that wrist snap.

The fact is that Bruguera was not anywhere near as untalented as so many want to stereotype. This is a guy who actually *serve and volleyed* his way to a victory over Rafter at Wimbledon in only his first appearance on grass. In fact, the British court side reporter said that he had no idea he could volley like that, that he was "shocked," that it "wasn't just easy volleys either," that it was the "touch" as well, that it was almost "Edberg like." I'm not making this up. Even McEnroe said that Bruguera's a "good volleyer," and that he "always loves that drop volley." This is a guy who briefly coached Bruguera. If he had no talent, if all he had was fitness, do you think he would have worked with him? Bruguera actually had very good hands. Have a tape of his demolition of Medvedev from the 93 French Open semis? I do. He time and time again out cat and moused Medevedev around the net in this match with extreme angled slice.

Bruguera's problem was NOT a lack of talent. His problem was that he was like Rios always battling some form of injury. He also was NOT that mentally tough, contrary to the stereotype. He was "always a half-assed player...sometimes motivated, sometimes not" according to a European media tennis "expert" I've spoken with. Or as Patrick McEnroe said about Bruguera, he's either a tremendous competitor, or he's a tanker...depends on his mood, and if he's feeling good about his game. Not exactly the sign of a truly mentally tough player like Muster or Chang, guys who give their all under ANY condition.

If Bruguera did not have talent, why was it that the first time Agassi saw him, he came running back to McEnroe to tell him "how impressed he was with this new guy Bruguera." He, in fact, was so impressed that he personally flew him to Las Vegas to spend time with him and train with him. Do you think he did that just because he's "fit." Give me a break.

Brugueara was definitely not just some fitness monster. He was never in Muster or Lendl or Chang or Courier's class in terms of fitness. He was never compared to them in work ethic nor fitness. Bruguera, in fact, regularly would get gassed. In fact, in the 94 French final, he basically tanked the third set and looked like he was "dying" to Bud Collins. What was he doing? He was conserving his energy, to save up for one concerted push. THIS was his m.o. He did it regularly, and as often looked "lethargic" for periods of matches before becoming hyper. In the fourth set, he ran away with it, and obliterted Berasategui...outrunning him, outhitting him, out placing him, out topspinning him, out angling him...that was NOT based on "fitness." It was simply that he was more talented than Berasategui. Just because he won the French, does not mean he did not have a "respectable" talent.

As for mental toughness? Um, did you not see him tanking large stretches of the match against Courier in the French final? He regularly did that in matches to conserve his energy to save up for concerted "pushes." Courier, however, did not have to do that, because he was simply MORE FIT...not to mention more mentally tough.

This is what Courier said about Bruguera's efforts at the U.S. Open this past year. He said, "Just say it...the boy tanked, the boy tanked." Even still, he easily beat Stich the year after Stich made the finals of the U.S. Open at the U.S. Open in his worst year, 96. Again, when he flashed it, he had more talent than he's given credit for, I also have this match on tape.

Bruguera's a guy who lost a total of THREE points in the first set against Medvedev at the 97 Lipton, and was up 6-0, 5-0 before letting Medeved win a few games because he was his best friend on tour. Was this based on fitness? Or do you need TALENT to go into a "zone." Was Bruguera not in the zone when he unbelievable passing shot after unbelievable passing shot in the semis against Sampras that tournament? Was Bruguera not talented when he "called [Sampras'] bluff" in the third set, when Sampras broke back and motioned with his hands to the crowd to "raise the roof?" Bruguera not only matched Sampras' attempt to raise his level in this match, he raised his level one notch up and still won the match.

If Bruguera was so "fit," then why did he absolutely CRUMBLE fitness wise in the finals against Muster on a very hot day? Or as Luke Jensen said, "poor Sergi's a beached whale." He *barely* moved for anything in the last two sets, so much for the superior fitness theory.

If Bruguera had so little talent, then how did he get VERY nearly beat Sampras 6-0 in the second set of the year ending 93 Masters? He got up 5-0, 15-30 on Sampras' serve. Sampras had two play three PERFECT points just to get ONE game in that set, this indoors when the courts actually were LIGHTNING fast compared to what they are now...now they play just like slow hard courts almost. Bruguera, in fact, continued his hot streak in the beginning of the third set and after scorching another Sampras serve at his feet. Sampras walked back to the baseline shaking his head, the actually turned around and *spontaneously* BOWED DOWN to Bruguera, causing everyone in the arena to chuckle, including Bruguera. Thing is, this act kind of broke Bruguera's zone trance state. After that, he came down one level but still played Sampras dead even. He only played a few loose point on his serve allowing Sampras to break at the the very end and serve out the match in the next game. Even then though, Bruguera played two truly BRILLIANT points. Again, if Bruguera had no talent? This match was not about "fitness." Bruguera had talent, period. How many people have been able to come so close to taking a 6-0 set from Sampras indoors in a match in which Sampras was not playing poorly? In fact, post-match Sampras did not use his level of play as an excuse. He, in fact, said Bruguera "just got on a roll."

If Bruguera had no talent how do you explain coming THIS close to taking Becker out in straight sets at the 94 year ending championship semis on Becker's home turf? Becker had to fight for his life in an EPIC game at 4-4 in the second on his serve, he had to save a ton of break point chances and play his absolute BEST tennis just to survive this game. He did, barely, and then Bruguera immediately choked the next game away giving Becker the set. After that, Bruguera lost it mentally and was never the same. But post match, Becker himself said he was "lucky" to win that set and the match. He also said he was not surprised at all that Bruguera played so well, he said he knew it was going to be a tough match because he saw how close he came to beating Agassi in the round robin. Remember, the indoor courts in 94 were NOT the same slowed down hard courts they have been since the mid to late 90s. Back then, the indoor courts gave a DECIDED edge to guys like Becker. Even still, Bruguera took nearly every single Becker serve from right on top of the baseline, he did not budge. This is a fact, and I bet you anything no one would believe me because they'd buy into the EASY stereotype. Yet, this is a fact, I have the tape to prove it.

If Bruguera was so "fit" and mentally tough, why did he *immediately* cave in the third set of this match? Um, yeah...because it's easier to perpetuate stereotypes than reality.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
The fact is, Bruguera is a guy who has TWICE beaten Krajicek indoors, one time in straight sets. Twice beaten Korda indoors...and remember Korda's memorable run to the 93 indoor Grand Slam Cup championships? His two epic, consecutive victories against Sampras and Stich? Well, forgotten is that he barely got by Bruguera in the quaterfinals, 6-4 in the third. Bruguera is a guy who trice beat Stich on hard courts, and once VERY nearly indoors, losing 7-6 in the third. A guy who also almost beat Stich on grass in Germany in the quaterfinals of the Davis Cup in 94, three out of the four sets were VERY close, 5 or 6. But I guess, none of this matters? Bruguera absolutely has no real talent, all he can do is hit topspin and be fit.

The reality is that Bruguera played on hard courts ONE TIME prior to the time he was 18. ONE TIME...can you say that about Ferrero, about Moya, about ANY of the newer generation? NO, because they specifically built hard courts in Spain in the early 90s for the sole purpose of creating more balanced players...the RAW TALENT, however does not change in that pool, what changes is the adaptive act of an evolving *technique*. Bruugera's technique was bred for clay and nothing but clay, it was not the hybrid hard-court/clay-court technique of Moya and Ferrero and the new generation of Spaniards. Even still, I do not believe that Moya and Ferrero could have taken a 6-1 set off Sampras indoors. Heck, neither could Rios. I also have that match on tape, Sampras vs. Rios indoors. Rios played VERY close to his best in this match, but he still never at any one time completely dominated any portion of the match, it's hard to with Sampras' serve you know...this again ignoring the fact that indoor courts were MUCH slower when this match took place (2000) than they were in 93. Am I saying Bruguera is more talented than Rios? No, but I am saying show some respect and stop regurgitating the stereotype that Bruguera did not have any REAL form of talent. I'm so tired of hearing the IMPLIED notion that topspin is not REAL talent. Freaking EVERY aspect of the game is talent. If you saw how I play, you'd see that I have a ton of variety, but I respect EVERY style of play and technique as "talent." Not JUST serve and volley, not just touch, not just hitting flat...but EVERYTHING.

The bottom-line in my opinion is the Bruguera was an ELITE talent who at his best could go toe to toe with anybody on any surface, *including* grass (per his 94 results against Stich and Rafter). He's beaten Agassi, Chang, Sampras, Stich, Becker, Lendl, Connors, Medvedev, Enqvist, Larsson, Forget, Leconte, Kafelnikov, Rafter, Courier, Edberg, Ivanisevic, Henman, Martin, Federer, Rios, Pioline, Krajicek, Korda, Hrbaty, etc., etc. and NOT just on clay. I don't care who you are, that IS a qualified "hit list" spanning THREE generations of top players. Bruguera DID have talent, not just "fitness." If no one believes me, I have a library of matches on tape to prove it. I'm SO tired of the stereotype that claycourters have no real talent. It just sickens me. I LOVE the style of Sampras and Stich and play that half and half that way and half and half claycourter way...they ALL require talent, EVERY STYLE requires talent...PERIOD. It's such an elitist way of thinking to say that only "classical" style tennis is talent, and I hate that kind of snobbery and elitism. My two favorite tournaments? You bet, the French AND Wimbledon. I respect them both, because they BOTH require talent. I mean to say that claycourters in general have less than talent than fast courters is basically being racist if you think about it. It's equivalent of saying that there is a FAR greater proportion of BORN talented tennis players in America than there are in Spain, because Americans play "hard court" tennis and Spaniards "clay court tennis." BS. I don't buy that for one second. What you have are the same RAW talent REARED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. It's just that the stereotype is that the only REAL tennis is anything BUT clay... Funny, 'cause even the great Robert Landsdorp, architect of all strokes classical and "genius," realizes the hypocrisy in all this. He point blank says that the elite clay courters are every bit as talented as Sampras and Agassi, but that the world will never know it, because their talent is WASTED because of their TECHNIQUE. Techniques which they were not born with, but rather GIVEN, TRAINED TO HAVE. These extreme grips simply limit their longevity and ability to CONSISTENTLY play their best on anything but clay. Why longevity? Because these techniques simply take sooo much more out of you phsyically. That is a fact. Why consistently? Because you can win on both clay and hard with 'easy-going' classical technique (see Medvedev and Kafelnikov), but you can't win on hard courts with radical, western grip technique consistently. Why? Because the grips are too extreme. On a good day? Sure, it won't matter. But if you're just slightly off, there is NO in between with this style on faster surfaces, because they rob you of too much time and are too dificult to time and do not effectively enable you to block the ball back deep when under pressure. And for those who say well classical technique isn't beneficial on clay? Since when is having MORE time to prepare EVER a handicap on ANY surface? Lendl used an eastern grip, he had all day to set up his forehand on clay...it's called the luxury of pulverizing the ball at will all day long on clay. Kafelnikov and Medvedev? They certainly never flailed at the ball, but they certainly had all day to MEASURE their groundies on clay...with the added benefit that they didn't have to gas themselves to death to do it. Medevedev was a little...make that big...6'4" pudgster when he knocked Kuerten out in straight sets at the 98 French in his run to the finals...ever seen Medvedev with his shirt off during this period? I have, and it's not pretty, not a single muscle and all pudge around the belly. You think Muster could have gone that far at the French with that kind of pudge? Hardly. Dude ran ten miles a day, he had to to play his style effectively on clay. It takes THAT much more out of you to play with extreme grips. WHY? It does NOT have to be that way...again, Kafelnikov, Medevedev...AND Rios, all mediocre in terms of fitness, proved that point during their French Open runs. Repeat it with me, it is NEVER a disadvantage to have more time to set up for your strokes. The extreme techniques work on clay sure, but so too do the less extreme techniques. However, can you say the same about extreme techniques on old school, mid-early 90s indoor carpet against Goran's serve, on a fast U.S. Open hard court trying to return Roddick's serve? I don't think so. Again, the technique...NOT raw talent is the limiting factor. Landsdorp agrees with me, is he that preposterous too?

The thing is, my above assement? Jeff Tarango has also personally agreed with my assessment of both Brugera and this whole issue of technique. I'm not just spewing this stuff out. I'm just tired of the stereotypes being given free-reign until they become truths, when in reality, deeper analysis reveals that like most things in life...life can NOT be reduced to a stereotype without slapping someone in the face. And by condemning clay courters as being lesser talents, that is EXACTLY what is happening. You take Bruguera and raise him on a combination of hard courts and clay courts, and you have a different player with DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE. Still doesn't mean, he'd at the core be the same raw, UNMOLDED talent. If he weren't, he wouldn't be able to randomly decide to serve and volley his way to an epic victory over Rafter at Wimbledon in his first real appearance on grass now would he? Lest you think, Rafter couldn't play too well in 94...wrong. He was considered VERY promising then. It was this very loss that John McEnroe says actually sent him into a tailspin. If you said this was possible before the match, that British reporter would have said you're crazy. But see that's what happens when you buy into stereotypes. Talent is talent is talent...period. It doesn't matter if you're serving and volleying for a living or playing at the baseline. I've seen Rafter outrally Agassi himself from the baseline at his best, it happens. That's what happens with TRUE top ten caliber players. They are each and all that talented, that they can occassionaly moonlight at an elite level in styles of play not normally their own.
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Wow, your masturbatory Bruegera obsession continues...

!Tym said:
The fact is, Bruguera is a guy who has TWICE beaten Krajicek indoors, one time in straight sets. Twice beaten Korda indoors...and remember Korda's memorable run to the 93 indoor Grand Slam Cup championships? His two epic, consecutive victories against Sampras and Stich? Well, forgotten is that he barely got by Bruguera in the quaterfinals, 6-4 in the third. Bruguera is a guy who trice beat Stich on hard courts, and once VERY nearly indoors, losing 7-6 in the third. A guy who also almost beat Stich on grass in Germany in the quaterfinals of the Davis Cup in 94, three out of the four sets were VERY close, 5 or 6. But I guess, none of this matters? Bruguera absolutely has no real talent, all he can do is hit topspin and be fit.
No one ever said he wasn't talented; ANYONE who PLAYS professional tennis, not to even MENTION winning a major or two, has talent. You just spent two hours and 5,000 words to dispute a claim that was never even MADE. However, his "talent" paled in comparison with many of the players you mention. I don't care how many people he may have beaten on grass, in the end, he never won a tournament, no matter how minor, off of clay. He was a classic one-trick pony.
Bruugera's technique was bred for clay and nothing but clay, it was not the hybrid hard-court/clay-court technique of Moya and Ferrero and the new generation of Spaniards. Even still, I do not believe that Moya and Ferrero could have taken a 6-1 set off Sampras indoors.
Like I said, ONE TRICK PONY. Thanks for confirming that, as if I needed your confirmation. And about SAMPRAS, why do you keep comparing this girly-man one-trick pony to Sampras? There IS no comparison. So he took a set off of him. If I'm not mistaken, Sampras BEAT SB at RG...not a set, an entire MATCH. Now, did SB ever beat Sampras at Wimby?
I saying Bruguera is more talented than Rios? No, but I am saying show some respect and stop regurgitating the stereotype that Bruguera did not have any REAL form of talent.
Like I said, anyone in the pro ranks is talented; the difference is DEGREE (and versatility). As for FORM, his was hideous, but I'm not one to rate players based on how pretty their strokes are.
The bottom-line in my opinion is the Bruguera was an ELITE talent who at his best could go toe to toe with anybody on any surface, *including* grass (per his 94 results against Stich and Rafter).
Let me reiterate something I said, and others have said...SB NEVER, EVER, EVER won a tournament other than clay. How does that jibe with your statement?
I'm SO tired of the stereotype that claycourters have no real talent. It just sickens me.
Then you should get some help for your illness. Like I SAID, there are degrees of talent-for clay court savvants like SB, think of the movie "RAINMAN" and the Dustin Hoffman character's ability to count pick-up sticks from just glancing at them on the floor. That's SB. Outside of that, he was lost.
I mean to say that claycourters in general have less than talent than fast courters is basically being racist if you think about it. It's equivalent of saying that there is a FAR greater proportion of BORN talented tennis players in America than there are in Spain, because Americans play "hard court" tennis and Spaniards "clay court tennis."
Now, you've just gone from absurd babbling-which is normal for you-to really, really dumb. I won't comment further this bit of idiocy.
The thing is, my above assement? Jeff Tarango has agreed with my assessment of both Brugera and this whole issue of technique. I'm not just spewing this stuff out. I'm just tired of the stereotypes being given free-reign until they become truths
That's the best support you can find? Jeff Tarango? Man, you're really grasping. Sampras changed to a one-hander, Lendl learned to play the net, late but better than never, and other players have been known to broaden, or at least make adjustments their games with some degree of success. Your argument that clay courters cannot, for some reason, also do this, kinda defeats your argument that they are every bit as talented as all court players. In fact, your argument gives support to the so-called stereotype that these players are quite limited, and always will be.
Talent is talent is talent...period. It doesn't matter if you're serving and volleying for a living or playing at the baseline.
Again, DEGREES. Hey, Richard Gere has some talent as an actor, but is he Marlon Brando or Larry Olivier? No. He doesn't have their talent.
 
Phil is right, one trick pony.

Bruguera certainly had talent but alas he was very one dimensional. Bruguera showed me little ability to adjust his game in any way. He could play very well on hard courts- WITH his clay court game. Just as any top clay court player can do well(but generally not GREAT) with his clay court game. He can win rounds, he can upset a top guy here and there and even win a title or 2. Especially these days as their opponent is almost always a baseliner, albeit possibly one with a better hard court baseline game. Usually though, they fall short the majority of times against the really big boys. They will always be tough opponents on any surface though, if they are mentally commited. You must play well to beat them.

Even Muster, who was certainly 1 dimensional, showed me 2 things he adjusted at times on hard courts:

1.popped big first serves
2.flattened his groundies just a touch when needed and tried to play up near the baseline at times and take advantage of the short balls when possible

I believe there are actually fairly unique mechanical reasons why Sergei could not do #2(I won't bother getting into that now, big topic, it's not just "his grip" lol). He did try to do #1 sometimes though, he just didn't do it quite as consistently well as Muster who's 1st serve was highly underrated. As far as his volley, yes, I recall Mac saying he could actually volley quite well, but in the same conversation Mac was berating him for never even trying to use it. So what good is a great practice volley when seeing it in a match is comparable to seeing the Yeti shoveling snow in your driveway?

The best match I ever saw from Bruguera on hard courts was a loss to Agassi at the Canadian. One of the best matches ever seen there in which Bruguera took the 1st set, and went to a tiebreak in the 2nd I believe, before collapsing in the 3rd as Agassi had run him into oblivion. Bruguera did serve pretty well there, other than that, he used his claycourt game, looping back heavy heavy spin from way behind the baseline and running like a dog. Great match, he certainly was tough on any surface when he played like that, but again, it was simply his claycourt game.

Also, as noted, it takes talent to rise to the top on any surface, but the talents required are quite different. One of the things about the greatest grass court players which seperates them is the talent to improvise, have even quicker reflexes than the tour average, sharp eyes and great hands and feet. Clay is a more grooved game. I like the contrast, it makes tennis very rich.
 
L

laurie

Guest
Phil said:
Camilio – It’s funny that Wimbledon detractors almost ALWAYS inevitably suggest that the tournament should either be done away with or the surface changed. Why? Because it’s “irrelevant” in the scheme of “modern” tennis? That now-clichéd poppycock has been thrown around for years. But it REALLY comes down to a baser, emotional level-it’s because baseline/clay fans' uni-dimensional baseliner “boys” simply can’t win on grass. No one is calling for an end RG, not even those serve & volley fans who bemoan the failure of THEIR boys to get through the second round of RG each year. Grass is part of tennis-not a major part-but still part, so if you haven’t “got over it” by now, you never will.

Your suggestion that Wimby should be eliminated entirely UNLESS grass court tennis is exported en masse to Asia is kinda absurd-talk about a red herring! What does Asia have to do with Wimbledon-why would or should economic growth there (and the concurrent growth in tennis) have any affect on Wimbledon (other then providing a larger pool of future participants in the tourney)? If you want to talk about economics, and actually keep the discussion on a more relevant track, look at the AO. If there's ANY tournament that is in some danger of moving, it would be that one. The AO is financially strapped, has had trouble replacing major sponsors, and with new and ultra modern facilities built or being built in Beijing and Shanghai, may, in the future, have some competition. Crying about Wimbledon is like complaining about bad weather, or as some posters do, the rain at Wimbledon-it’s here to stay.

As for “rating” Wimby, that’s your opinion, of course, but I’m curious about your CRITERIA for such a rating-is it based on player results, fan/player perception of the majors or just just arbitrary bias? I LIKE RG, but here’s MY bias on why Wimbledon rates ahead of RG, and something to actually back it up (although also probably “biased”, at least from a dirtball fan’s perspective):

Wimbledon is much tougher to win than the French (I’m basing this on the MEN only). There are no one-trick, one-time lucky winners, as there have been in RG and the AO.

There is no such thing as a “grass player”-that is a myth. You cannot be a grass player only and survive in the ATP, not with no more than three grass tournaments a year. A player who wins at Wimby is a great hard court player, maybe a great indoor player and, in a few cases, not so bad on clay either (see one Andre Agassi).

RG winners are, with some exceptions, clay court idiot savants-most of them can ONLY win on clay. Based on the last 25 years, many Wimby winners have won majors on other surfaces, multiple times-McEnroe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Sampras, Federer, Hewitt, Agassi. The ONE-TIME Wimby winners have won other tournaments on other surfaces-they are not slouches (e.g. Stich, Ivo, Kraijchek, Cash). RG winners are often “clay idiot savants” and one-surface/trick ponies (e.g. Muester, Bruegara, Costa, ANDRES GOMEZ, Gaudio, etc.) who get through the tournament on superior fitness as much as actual tennis skill. There ARE exceptions-Courrier, Guga, Ferrero, Kafelnikov, Wilander and Lendl-players with big enough games to get them through hard court season, too. Borg is a freak, and skews ANY side of this argument, so I don’t even consider him in the equation.

Lendl…what to say about his failure. Great on all surfaces, and if he played today he would probably have a Wimby trophy. I don’t think his problem was the surface, per say, although his mediocre S&V game didn’t help. He was just unfortunate to have played in the same era as McEnroe, Connors, Edberg, Cash, Stich, Sampras, Becker and Edberg-players whose net play, the importance of which is magnified on grass, were able to handle a mechanical master baseliner like Lendl.

When the clay season rolls around, half of Spain and Argentina come out of the woodwork-no name clay specialists who, just as quickly as they appear out of the woodwork, disappear again after RG, hibernating…not to surface again until the following April. The best “grass players” are much more complete players, and stick around for the ENTIRE season and even, in some cases, do okay on clay. I guess the only player that doesn't do this is Wayne Arthurs, otherwise, the non-idiot savants play the entire season-in real tournaments in-season, not in some clay tournament in Bucharest or Tirana, or Ulan Bator-ala Muester and Alex "Cry-Boy" Corretja.

Phil, you make some very nice comments about grass. I can't add anything else. I agree with everything you say.
 
H

Haka Boy

Guest
And now something completely new on this thread.....a short answer. Besides I’ve aged 2 years in the time it’s taken me to read through it all.

Wimbledon has a class of its own.........its called tradition and I hope they always keep it. Starting in 2006 they have plans for an upgrade to Centre Court , more seating capacity and a retractable roof ….. no more rain delays.
 
AAAA said:
The meaningful grass court season, that is where the top players turn up, is only about 1 month long; the USO and AO switched from grass/green clay to hardcourts many, many moons ago. No tennis academy in any tennis super-power country trains the next crop of potential top 100 players on grass and hasn't done for at least 15 years, the real figure is probably much more than 15 years but i'm no historian of the game. Apart from a few(two) indian doubles players and Tim Henman i can't name any other current top 100 ATP player that spent his junior days developing his game on grass. How do all the above points which I think are true make grass a relevant surface in 'modern' tennis? It has historical value which should definately be kept alive through primarily the Wimbledon Championships but relevant to the 'modern' game, c'mon!

I'd be very surprised if Henman grew up playing on grass - there are very few grass courts in this country these days - in fact there are very few courts that aren't plain old tarmac.
 

AAAA

Hall of Fame
Russell Finch said:
I'd be very surprised if Henman grew up playing on grass - there are very few grass courts in this country these days - in fact there are very few courts that aren't plain old tarmac.

Russell, If you are right then my point about grass being the least played on surface is reinforced. Wimbledon does have an 'olde World' charm to it that none of the other slams have. Wimbledon is the home of tennis, not many dispute that. What people are pointing out is that grass isn't a much used surface anymore around the world and in that sense grass as a surface for tennis is largely irrelevant for most pro and amatuer players. Some posters have distorted the argument by discussing whether Wimbledon is relevant and not grass per-se. It makes their points look better but is a distortion on their part.

To everyone else:

Wimbledon = 100m sprint
USO = 200m sprint
FO = 5000m middle distance race

Figure that one out.
 

spam

Rookie
Grass courts are getting rarer because they are a nightmare to maintain .There is nothing better than playing on a great grass court and nothing worse than a sh**ty one also they can only be played on for a finite time before they need re-seeding etc. But is not the modern game as we know it named Lawn Tennis!?Wimbledon is the one title that the majority of pros want regardless of what they say ,it is ,as Rabbit said ,the pre-eminent Tournament.
Im a fan of all surfaces but there's something magical about the AETC.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Datacipher, have you actually seen the Bruguera-Leconte match from the Paris indoors and seen just how often Bruguera played a claycourt game in this match. Just see how Bruguera stood on top of the baseline to return every single serve against Becker at the year ending championship semis. He rarely tried to bash the ball at all against Leconte in the match I'm citing, his passing shots were as good as they come, and I've not seen that kind of feathery angled passing shots from Muster. And since when has Agassi ever got up 5-0 on Sampras indoors? Bruguera played a clay court game mostly when he played other baseliners, however, when he wanted to he hit some of the hardest forehands I've ever seen, the hardest forehand struck was not a Sampras one in that year ending championship match, it was a Bruguera return...by far. Against serve and volleyers or all-courters, however? Bruguera played a much more attacking game. It depended on the match up. I saw him easily take down Agassi in the 95 German Open on clay by playing clay court tennis. Yet in the 93 French semis against Medvedev, HE was the one dictating virtually all the points from the word go. He was beating Medevedev from every part of the court. Bruguera would play different styles depending on the match up.

Secondly, Bruguera had a more difficult time getting to the net than others? Why? Again, technique. Who had a more unique forehand than Bruguera? I've not seen anybody hit with that techinque. It's a technique that was not well-suited toward hitting approach shots (and of course, his serve sucked). Muster's forehand technique is exactly the hybrid clay-court/hard court forehand technique I'm talking about, it's the windshield wiper style that virtually all "clay courters" use, but it's a sweeping style that also works well on hard courts. Bruguera's motion was not designed that way. It's a very idiosyncratic shot.

And also what you're not noting is that Bruguera was a tanker...people always use that to justify Rios...but why not Bruguera? Bruguera *selectively* gave it his all, from match to match. I've seen matches where he would basically just go through the motions, and other times he'd be a Chang-like intense competitor. This was his m.o. It was once written the Bruguera really only seemed to give his all at the French...that was just how he was. Against Chang, at the 94 Wimbledon, he lost two tie-breaks, then tanked the third...would Chang have done the same, particularly after having played such an epic match against Rafter? Of course not, Chang would have thought no way I can let that herculean effort against Rafter go to waste; he would use that as MORE motivation to come back from two sets down. Not Bruguera, he was satisfied. Bruguera would regularly pull stuff like that off, SELECTIVE effort. In the 97 Lipton finals, he immediately went into tank mode after letting the set slipaway in the tiebreak. Remember Chang cramping against Lendl, yet still NOT tanking? Bruguera wasn't cramping against Muster in 97, he just gave up after one set...tired yes...cramping? No. Again, Chang would have not have let a heartbreaking first SET loss completely drive him into full-bore tank mode...he would say, no way, I'm not wasting this opportunity no matter what, I've come to far, this is the finals, I can't waste that herculean effort I put in against Sampras in the semis, I've got give it my all until the very last point no matter what, now more than EVER...again, not Bruguera. He was too easily satisifed, again SELECTIVE effort, from one match to the next, not even from one tournament to the next. Again, that was his M.O., you can see how an m.o. like that could hurt a player's "accomplishments."

Finally, Bruguera burned out early, he was just coming into his prime in 94. People forget that in 93 and 94 he was actually one of the best indoor players on the circuit, and he said at the end of 94 that he wanted to prove he could play on hard courts too not just claycourts...but what happened after that? Bruguera never had a chance to reach his prime, because of injuries and burn out. Even before 93, he had a very serious back problem very similar to Moya's.

The Bruguera of 93 and 94 was a much better player than the Bruguera at the 97 French, NO QUESTION. He actually played a more attacking game THEN.

Ultimately, I'm just tired of the stereotypes that clay court tennis requires less talent than grass court tennis. I mean almost all of my favorite players are "classical" players, but I never feel like I have to defend them. There's always a million people who will defend Sampras, as I HAVE sooo many times on here; but for the clay courter? It's always insinuated as something less...

In mixed martial arts, a grappler fights a boxer...you're comparing two different classes. Do you compare that boxer against boxers? Or against grapplers? They're two different style, two different techniques, two different philosophies. Doesn't mean one is 'better' than the other. In tennis, the way the calendar is construed, four out of tennis' 5 out of tennis' 6 gems (counting the Lipton as well) do NOT favor clay court technique. Fair or not, that still does not mean that clay court talent is not talent. You're either born with it or you ain't. I steadfastly maintain and defend clay court talent as being equally worthy as hard-court/fast court talent.

Ultimately, I don't want to be stereotyped as a Bruguera nut. I cringe whenever I see his name mentioned, because I've been made to feel personally hurt by that several times on here. But, at the same time, I'm tired of stereotypes not jiving with reality.

The progress Bruguera was making in 94 at 23 years of age was very real, anybody who saw the Bruguera-Becker match had to have known that unless biased against claycourters. He's a guy who played once on hard courts by the time he was 18, one time. He basically made a statement that he was going to try and make up for lost time at the end of 94, that he was going to spend the off season to become a hard court player...what happened? He slipped on a tennis ball at the end of practice picking up a tennis ball and broke his ankle...fair or not, he never got a chance to really see what he was capable of. The base talent you're born with though was always there.

I honestly do not believe that the Muster, Bruguera comparison on hard courts is JUST about technique either. Bruguera did not have the heart that Muster did. He did not train like Muster did. And even though Muster had a major injury early, he stayed relatively injury free after that. The reason Bruguera retired was because he said he grew tired of always battling injuries and not being able to practice like you need to play at the highest level. It's a matter of *continuity*. Muster had a chance to build up momentum. Bruguera did not. Factor in that Muster didn't just try hard on a spur of the moment basis, but rather an EVERY match is LIFE OR DEATH basis; it's no wonder he did better on hard courts. Still, if you're talking about Muster in the zone vs. Bruguera in the zone against Sampras indoors or on hard courts, I'm taking Bruguera every time simply because he had more talent in my opinion. He could intui more shots under pressure than Muster. Honestly, if you watch the Sampras-Bruguera 97 Lipton semis, some of the shots he hit were not just oh, he was playing claycourt tennis running everything down. That wasn't the case. He blitzed Sampras in the tie-break beating him from every facet of the court.

The problem was that Bruguera rarely gave it his all like this, or played this inspired, or looked this motivated in every single match like Muster. Muster was ALWAYS this fired up. Bruguera just not so. I remember watching him play Chang in the 97 year ending championships, and he started off I think controlling the match, but then he inexplicably then seemed to not care. He didn't give up mind you, but he just suddenly seemed like he was going through the motions and Chang routined him from there on out. I saw him do the same thing against Haas on clay, started off trying, then all of a sudden it was like a ghost playing. He just pushed the ball back, and really didn't seem to care that Haas started running away with it. He simply just went through the motions. He did this a lot. In the 92 Olympics, there was an article in Tennis Magazine on George Steinbrenner. The reporter approached him during as he was watching a Bruguera match. Streinbrenner raved to the reporter about how impressive this kid Bruguera was...then what happened? Well, the reporter ended the article by saying how Steinbrenner was cursing at Bruguera by the end, because he inexplicably seemed to begin to tank soon after he raved about him. Streinbrenner said that there's nothing he hates more than a quitter with no heart, a tanker. He said he can't stand athlete who don't give their all, all the time. Of course, Bruguera certainly gave his all in the French final in spite of clearly being gased, he was down a break in the fifth before turning it on...see, selective heart.

You can't be a consistent champion without 1) health, 2) a heart that's working FULL-TIME, and 3) talent. All of these factor into play, and I think more so than just that Muster had a better service motion.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
!Tym - I have a word for you ... "parsimony".

GEEZ! Your rants are so tiring, I've taken to reading your laborious posts the same way I read a newspaper article: First two lines of the first paragraph ... last paragraph.

[... snore ... ]

- KK
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Snore away...that's fine. I understand that, but at the same time I was born a certain way. I'm someone who's written a 36 page term paper on Tiennneman Square in one night. Exhaustively thorough writing is literally how I was born, people are born different, with different mindsets, with different mind chemistries, and to my mind that's ok. When I was told to give five minute presentations in college, I'd gave one hour and ten minute presentations at the expense of my grade...I just couldn't help it. I'm exhaustively thorough and my conscience won't let me sleep until with anything that's NOT thorough. Just the way I am. I apologize for who I am, but at the same time that does not make me any less of a person.

The one thing I've never done on here is try to belittle other posters; and I know that's not exactly the case here. But, in general; I've always tried to resist antagoonizing others or calling people out on any personal level or calling anyone names.

In some respects, my worth would have been much easier to justify had I decided to puruse law.

With that said, I've always taken a more liberal approach in judging other posters. I've never taken offense to anyone posting anything, even if long. To my mind, everyone's free to post what they want, because there is no gun pointed at anyone's head forcing them to read anything.

The bottom-line is that to judge what I write as "Waffle" is to judge me as a person and human being.

That's fine, we are each born different. I accept you if you'll accept me, but this post isn't so short is it? Why? Becaue, "Mate" we were born different. If a scientist PET scanned are brains, we would find that we operate on different levels. Without such levels on incongruity there would be no board. Which is why I do not judge others by what they post, nor do I have or ever will have a favorite poster. We are simply, different people with different ways of thinking; that's a neutral assertion. To argue opinion is one thing (i could agree with you in one second and be your best friend and disagree with you in another and be your worst enemy...so what, it's just tennis inconsequential to fabric of mankind), but to change a person, a human being and his brain chemistry, is simply not possible.

I'm out...and Phil's would probably be want to say, that I'm "running away." And to that I say, I am who I am. We are each born different. We think differently. And I'm fine with that. I'm tired of trying to change myself. I already tried that. I tried to keep anonymous, to never post again (i.e. the nickname, ONE Time, a remainder to myself to never post again because tennis is not that important to get into arguments over), to never mention Bruguera's name again, to never post long again...but you know what happened? I was born is what happened. I was born this way, and sooner or later the real me is going to slip out no matter how many time's I've tried to beat it back into submsission...and soooner or later, I'm going to slip...and write something about Bruguera and get grilled and 'put in my place' by Dedans Penthouse and Rabbit. Sooner or later, a Kaptain Karl is going to try to offend me by "snore..." Sooner or later, yada, yada, yada. See, that's what happens when you can't change who you are no matter how hard you've tried.

I'm tired of it, and I won't do it anymore. I don't judge you, so don't judge me. And if you do, fine. I still don't make fun of others, poke fun at others, or take posts out to criticize others, or call people names. I've never done any of that, and if I have I apologize. Ultimately, I will go on being me or not post at all. If we can't be ourselves on these boards, we'll not have any boards.

I've come to accept these boards for vigiliante, policing, which is fine. We are all who we our. I accept the criticism, but it still doesn't change who we are born as. Which is why, for as long as these boards will run, the same reciprocal arguments and feuds and personal annoyances with certain posters will live on. They always repeat, sooner or later, it's just a matter of time. So why sweat it anymore. As Doris Day would say, whatever will be, will be.

Que Sera, Que Sera.
 

Kevin Patrick

Hall of Fame
!Tym,
There are some factors you neglected to mention in the matches you constantly refer to. Yes, Bruguera won a 6-1 set vs. Sampras at the '93 year end championships. It was the last round robin match of the event, Sampras had already qualified for the semis with a 2-0 record. Bruguera was 0-2, the match was meaningless, I'm sure Sampras was not too concerned about the result.
Also, when Bruguera beat Stich at the '96 US Open, Stich was in the midst of an injury plagued year. And Stich did not reach the final of the '95 Open, but the '94 Open.
Yes. Bruguera beat Leconte at the '95 Paris Indoor. Leconte was not ranked in the top 100, & was very overweight, & close to retirement.
I think the claycourters of recent years(Ferrero, Kuerten, Coria) are far more talented & versatile on non-clay surfaces than Bruguera ever was.
I know you love the guy, & I'm not trying to put him down, just trying to put in career in proper perspective:
14 career titles, all on clay.
 

Kaptain Karl

Hall Of Fame
I performed the following edit -- with not one single repeated phrase from !Tym’s recent post, #114. (!Tym, I was motivated to make this point by your comment that your Screen Name meant “one time.” I could have selected ALL the themes you presented in #114 ... like the “don’t judge me” stuff, which was almost as bad. I simply chose not to.)

As you can see, your writing is not “one time.” It isn’t “exhaustively thorough.” It IS ... exhaustively repetitive.

!Tym said:
I was born a certain way ... Exhaustively thorough writing is literally how I was born, people are born different, with different mindsets, with different mind chemistries ... I'm exhaustively thorough and my conscience won't let me sleep until with anything that's NOT thorough. Just the way I am ... we are each born different. I accept you if you'll accept me ... we were born different. ... we operate on different levels ... We are simply, different people with different ways of thinking ... I am who I am. We are each born different. We think differently ... I was born is what happened. I was born this way ... If we can't be ourselves on these boards, we'll not have any boards ... We are all who we our ... it still doesn't change who we are born as.

“One time” would be kind of ... refreshing.

- KK
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
!Tym - please note that I did not post in response to your latest offering at the alter of Bruguera; that is, of course, until you mentioned me by name. I think it's wonderful that you know so bloody much about Bruguera. But I do agree that 14 titles, all on clay do not the best ever or even close make.

You know, Johann Kriek had two Grand Slam titles, rivaling Bruguera and his were all on grass. And, this is really scary, Kriek has 14 career singles titles just like Bruguera!!!!!! Kriek was faster, maybe the fastest on court there has ever been. Kriek played with one of the heaviest rackets on record, a 16-ounce behemouth that he weilded with a grace and composure seldom seen in any athlete. While short of stature, Kriek demonstrated a great inner peacae and phsycial strength that has never been since before or since in the game. I remember one of Kriek's favorite things to do. When his opponent was arguing a point, Kriek would sit on the court and watch idly. When the rant was over, Kriek would stand up, however he would do it with a one-legged press. That was very impressive. Kriek's game was no less powerful and his all-court style was really a predecessor to the modern game. Kriek's abilities at net far overshadowed anyone in the game today. While he didn't hit of the ground with as much power, Kriek did hit a heavy ball. His forehand was unique in the game because he would hit it with a completely open stance. Kriek's wife, Tish, was often in the stands cheering him on. I have read that Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, and a lot of his contemporaries while pummeling Kriek on court, often feared him. It seems that Kriek would threaten to take them apart in the locker room. Kriek was also pro-Mandella. Kriek's blood-type is A+. Kriek is now a naturalized U.S. citizen and lives with his family somewhere in an undisclosed location in the southeastern United States. The location is undisclosed because Kriek, demonstrating great courage that has punctuated his career, against the South African mob. Because of this testimony, several key mafia figures in a South American ivory smuggling ring were brought to justice and sentenced to life imprisonment. Kriek was forced to flee the country and now resides in the witness protection program in the United States. He hasn't changed his name, which makes the program slightly less effectual, but his address is unknown to me which proves that he must be in the witness protection program. Kriek was born in South Africa in 1958 and has roamed the world as a touring pro since the age of 19 when he joined the tour. He helped his good friend Jimmy Connors launch the seniors tour and I'm sure he got a cut when Connors sold the whole enterprise to the ATP which pretty much snuffed it out to avoid competition with the current players. While he and Bruguera never played on tour, their stats are strikingly similar. and on and on and on

The above was an effort to demonstrate the lengths that your posts go to. What you call exhaustive, I call rambling. The only thing I find exhaustive in your posts is trying to read them. One thing I learned in my schooling was that anyone can write 2000 words and get their meaning across. It takes some thought, effort, and reflection to get the same thought across in 200 words. It is possible, and something I strive to do whenever I use written communication. Your posts remind me of speeches by dictators that go on for hours. Fidel Castro comes to mind right away. If you really enjoy writing and want to woo your reader, try brevity. It's a marvelous thing.

Bruguera, we get it. It's time to move on. You don't have to quit posting, just open that wonderfully imaganitive mind of yours to some other avenues besides Bruguera Boulevard.
 
H

Haka Boy

Guest
Thank you Rabbit for a very informative post that I actually enjoyed reading…….. and didn’t fall asleep trying,………..unlike some others :)
 
hey man i enjoy reading tym!'s posts. Even if its 10,000 words. if i can't finish it by morning, i come back at night and finish it. He gives good info. I've read all his posts and I think they are damn good and thoughtful. Keep Posting Tym! There are more people here likes to read your post then you think. its just the ones who don't like it are talking. So, don't get all down and ****. Me and my friend every time we talk about TW board, we say "damn Tym! knows about tennis man". I think you should keep writing regardless what point people makes. I think vamosrafa said once "good thoughts takes time to express" or something like that don't quite remamber.Any way, know this "Those who judge don't matter and those who matters doesn't judge".

but, i do agree some of the things phill said. Great champians do comes out of grass courts more so often then clay court. That means those two yournaments takes different level of talents to win it.
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
AAAA said:
Russell, If you are right then my point about grass being the least played on surface is reinforced. Wimbledon does have an 'olde World' charm to it that none of the other slams have. Wimbledon is the home of tennis, not many dispute that. What people are pointing out is that grass isn't a much used surface anymore around the world and in that sense grass as a surface for tennis is largely irrelevant for most pro and amatuer players. Some posters have distorted the argument by discussing whether Wimbledon is relevant and not grass per-se. It makes their points look better but is a distortion on their part.

To everyone else:

Wimbledon = 100m sprint
USO = 200m sprint
FO = 5000m middle distance race

Figure that one out.

AAAA - Yeah, I think I got it figured out. I like watching the sprints better than the long distance races, as do most people. The sprints are where it's at in terms of excitement. You can add this to your list: AO=warm-up sprint at an exhibition meet.
 
During Federer's golden 2003-07 era where he was winning Wimbledon every year without dropping a set the players didn't even care about Wimbledon or grass, and this is the man that everyone wants to call the GOAT.

#Weak #Era
#Inflated #Slam #Record
 

kabob

Hall of Fame
Wow, what a time capsule. It seems like a bygone era that people were talking about grass and mentioning a bunch of almost forgotten clay specialist players, now long since retired. With not even a single mention of Federer who was the two-time defending Wimbledon champ at the time.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
You don't have to call him the GOAT, but you aren't doing Serena any favor with statements like this.

That person is a rabid YouTube dullbot, spouting inane hate-driven rants towards Federer, Djokovic and anyone/anything else that didn't always go Rafa's way left, right and center. Fortunately, such bots usually fail to master the more sophisticated art of forum trolling and end up banned - let's hope it comes quick. I wonder if people choose to unleash their evil side like that or they really are that weird, to put it softly.
 

the green god

Professional
That person is a rabid YouTube dullbot, spouting inane hate-driven rants towards Federer, Djokovic and anyone/anything else that didn't always go Rafa's way left, right and center. Fortunately, such bots usually fail to master the more sophisticated art of forum trolling and end up banned - let's hope it comes quick. I wonder if people choose to unleash their evil side like that or they really are that weird, to put it softly.
Maybe we can have a SerenaisGOAT vs Sunseeker matchup;)
 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
It is hated only by some.

I played only on artificial grass, and I found it provides opportunity for lots of touch.

Why don't they just use artificial grass in the tournaments?

I made this one of my proposed hypothetical changes to the tennis game. They switched from wood to alloys and other materials for racquets, so I don't see why not this.

They must stick to grass just to keep the Wimbledon people feeling prestigious and exclusive.
 
6

6-3 6-0

Guest
During Federer's golden 2003-07 era where he was winning Wimbledon every year without dropping a set the players didn't even care about Wimbledon or grass, and this is the man that everyone wants to call the GOAT.

#Weak #Era
#Inflated #Slam #Record
Return of AngieB? ;)

- Extreme fangirl of Serena and Rafa
- Posts filled with unnecessary hashtags
- Baiting constantly

Too much coincidence?
 

Mazz Retic

Hall of Fame
Why don't they just use artificial grass in the tournaments?

I made this one of my proposed hypothetical changes to the tennis game. They switched from wood to alloys and other materials for racquets, so I don't see why not this.

They must stick to grass just to keep the Wimbledon people feeling prestigious and exclusive.
Real grass is the only way to go. More variance in bounce and other factors. It 'tests' players in ways artifical cannot. I don't hate on artifical grass but for professional tennsis not the way to go.
 

70後

Hall of Fame
The fact is that Bruguera was not anywhere near as untalented as so many want to stereotype. This is a guy who actually *serve and volleyed* his way to a victory over Rafter at Wimbledon in only his first appearance on grass. In fact, the British court side reporter said that he had no idea he could volley like that, that he was "shocked," that it "wasn't just easy volleys either," that it was the "touch" as well, that it was almost "Edberg like." I'm not making this up. Even McEnroe said that Bruguera's a "good volleyer," and that he "always loves that drop volley." This is a guy who briefly coached Bruguera. If he had no talent, if all he had was fitness, do you think he would have worked with him? Bruguera actually had very good hands. Have a tape of his demolition of Medvedev from the 93 French Open semis? I do. He time and time again out cat and moused Medevedev around the net in this match with extreme angled slice.

Very true. The guy had great finesse skills and net play, IF he wanted to use it. He just didn't take Wimbledon seriously, as the way it was in those days. So he skipped it.

I remember best that slow hc KB match with Pete and thinking this was a contest of two real heavy weights of equal talent.
 
Last edited:

EdSWright

Professional
Bruguera did not win the French Open based on fitness. I bet you anything, I have the tapes to prove it.

He obliterated Leconte at the French only one year after Leconte made the semis, and Leconte did NOT tank this match. He, in fact, came out fired up and playing very close to his best. By the end, however, Bruguera was passing him at will, and Leconte actually looked embarrassed in the end...lost 6-0 in the third, this after having lost the second 6-1. Lest you think this was a fluke, he played Leconte INDOORS in Paris in one of Leconte's most spirited matches in years and STILL beat him. Leconte honestly played VERY close to his best in this match, the crowd support was ridiculous, he gave as much as he possibly could; and by the third rolled around, Bruguera still outclassed him. It was not at all with power topspin either. Almost the entire match, Bruguera came up with unbelievable passing shots and FINESSE topspin passes. Leconte TWICE stopped to applaud Bruguera's shots in this match. The angles on the pass he created were not by lack of skill as you want to believe.

It amazes me that people still buy into the stereotype that Bruguera was not talented, just FIT, and that topspin is not a talent. Has anyone ever TRIED to hit with Bruguera's technique? If you have, tell me just how easy it is. Let's see you time that wrist snap.

The fact is that Bruguera was not anywhere near as untalented as so many want to stereotype. This is a guy who actually *serve and volleyed* his way to a victory over Rafter at Wimbledon in only his first appearance on grass. In fact, the British court side reporter said that he had no idea he could volley like that, that he was "shocked," that it "wasn't just easy volleys either," that it was the "touch" as well, that it was almost "Edberg like." I'm not making this up. Even McEnroe said that Bruguera's a "good volleyer," and that he "always loves that drop volley." This is a guy who briefly coached Bruguera. If he had no talent, if all he had was fitness, do you think he would have worked with him? Bruguera actually had very good hands. Have a tape of his demolition of Medvedev from the 93 French Open semis? I do. He time and time again out cat and moused Medevedev around the net in this match with extreme angled slice.

Bruguera's problem was NOT a lack of talent. His problem was that he was like Rios always battling some form of injury. He also was NOT that mentally tough, contrary to the stereotype. He was "always a half-assed player...sometimes motivated, sometimes not" according to a European media tennis "expert" I've spoken with. Or as Patrick McEnroe said about Bruguera, he's either a tremendous competitor, or he's a tanker...depends on his mood, and if he's feeling good about his game. Not exactly the sign of a truly mentally tough player like Muster or Chang, guys who give their all under ANY condition.

If Bruguera did not have talent, why was it that the first time Agassi saw him, he came running back to McEnroe to tell him "how impressed he was with this new guy Bruguera." He, in fact, was so impressed that he personally flew him to Las Vegas to spend time with him and train with him. Do you think he did that just because he's "fit." Give me a break.

Brugueara was definitely not just some fitness monster. He was never in Muster or Lendl or Chang or Courier's class in terms of fitness. He was never compared to them in work ethic nor fitness. Bruguera, in fact, regularly would get gassed. In fact, in the 94 French final, he basically tanked the third set and looked like he was "dying" to Bud Collins. What was he doing? He was conserving his energy, to save up for one concerted push. THIS was his m.o. He did it regularly, and as often looked "lethargic" for periods of matches before becoming hyper. In the fourth set, he ran away with it, and obliterted Berasategui...outrunning him, outhitting him, out placing him, out topspinning him, out angling him...that was NOT based on "fitness." It was simply that he was more talented than Berasategui. Just because he won the French, does not mean he did not have a "respectable" talent.

As for mental toughness? Um, did you not see him tanking large stretches of the match against Courier in the French final? He regularly did that in matches to conserve his energy to save up for concerted "pushes." Courier, however, did not have to do that, because he was simply MORE FIT...not to mention more mentally tough.

This is what Courier said about Bruguera's efforts at the U.S. Open this past year. He said, "Just say it...the boy tanked, the boy tanked." Even still, he easily beat Stich the year after Stich made the finals of the U.S. Open at the U.S. Open in his worst year, 96. Again, when he flashed it, he had more talent than he's given credit for, I also have this match on tape.

Bruguera's a guy who lost a total of THREE points in the first set against Medvedev at the 97 Lipton, and was up 6-0, 5-0 before letting Medeved win a few games because he was his best friend on tour. Was this based on fitness? Or do you need TALENT to go into a "zone." Was Bruguera not in the zone when he unbelievable passing shot after unbelievable passing shot in the semis against Sampras that tournament? Was Bruguera not talented when he "called [Sampras'] bluff" in the third set, when Sampras broke back and motioned with his hands to the crowd to "raise the roof?" Bruguera not only matched Sampras' attempt to raise his level in this match, he raised his level one notch up and still won the match.

If Bruguera was so "fit," then why did he absolutely CRUMBLE fitness wise in the finals against Muster on a very hot day? Or as Luke Jensen said, "poor Sergi's a beached whale." He *barely* moved for anything in the last two sets, so much for the superior fitness theory.

If Bruguera had so little talent, then how did he get VERY nearly beat Sampras 6-0 in the second set of the year ending 93 Masters? He got up 5-0, 15-30 on Sampras' serve. Sampras had two play three PERFECT points just to get ONE game in that set, this indoors when the courts actually were LIGHTNING fast compared to what they are now...now they play just like slow hard courts almost. Bruguera, in fact, continued his hot streak in the beginning of the third set and after scorching another Sampras serve at his feet. Sampras walked back to the baseline shaking his head, the actually turned around and *spontaneously* BOWED DOWN to Bruguera, causing everyone in the arena to chuckle, including Bruguera. Thing is, this act kind of broke Bruguera's zone trance state. After that, he came down one level but still played Sampras dead even. He only played a few loose point on his serve allowing Sampras to break at the the very end and serve out the match in the next game. Even then though, Bruguera played two truly BRILLIANT points. Again, if Bruguera had no talent? This match was not about "fitness." Bruguera had talent, period. How many people have been able to come so close to taking a 6-0 set from Sampras indoors in a match in which Sampras was not playing poorly? In fact, post-match Sampras did not use his level of play as an excuse. He, in fact, said Bruguera "just got on a roll."

If Bruguera had no talent how do you explain coming THIS close to taking Becker out in straight sets at the 94 year ending championship semis on Becker's home turf? Becker had to fight for his life in an EPIC game at 4-4 in the second on his serve, he had to save a ton of break point chances and play his absolute BEST tennis just to survive this game. He did, barely, and then Bruguera immediately choked the next game away giving Becker the set. After that, Bruguera lost it mentally and was never the same. But post match, Becker himself said he was "lucky" to win that set and the match. He also said he was not surprised at all that Bruguera played so well, he said he knew it was going to be a tough match because he saw how close he came to beating Agassi in the round robin. Remember, the indoor courts in 94 were NOT the same slowed down hard courts they have been since the mid to late 90s. Back then, the indoor courts gave a DECIDED edge to guys like Becker. Even still, Bruguera took nearly every single Becker serve from right on top of the baseline, he did not budge. This is a fact, and I bet you anything no one would believe me because they'd buy into the EASY stereotype. Yet, this is a fact, I have the tape to prove it.

If Bruguera was so "fit" and mentally tough, why did he *immediately* cave in the third set of this match? Um, yeah...because it's easier to perpetuate stereotypes than reality.

Oh
 

Charleneriva

Hall of Fame
The bottom line is, pure grass courters AND clay courters both have limited games. The greatest players have an all court game. Federer, Hewitt and potentially Safin will be among the favourites at all the slams, and that is why they are rightfully at the top of the heap in the rankings. Imagine how the rankings would look if there were equal numbers of clay, hard court, indoor and grass tournaments.

April 11, 2005:

"Federer, Hewitt and potentially Safin will be among the favourites at all the slams..."

71.gif
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
Seems people were still talking about S&V players at Wimbledon in 2005 (and how these guys would stop Rafa winning Wimbledon with their terrifying slices haha). Hadn't noticed yet the last three winners at the time were baseliners. People always need some extended time to adapt to the new order.
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
During Federer's golden 2003-07 era where he was winning Wimbledon every year without dropping a set the players didn't even care about Wimbledon or grass, and this is the man that everyone wants to call the GOAT.

#Weak #Era
#Inflated #Slam #Record

This is blatantly false. Look at who he had to beat over the years:

03 - Roddick
04 - Hewitt, Roddick
05 - Hewitt, Roddick
06 - Nadal
07 - Nadal

So he beat the top players every time who certainly did care about Wimbledon.

Also hilarious your username is "Serena is GOAT" then you accuse Fed of having an inflated slam total...
 

jussumman

Hall of Fame
Real grass is the only way to go. More variance in bounce and other factors. It 'tests' players in ways artifical cannot. I don't hate on artifical grass but for professional tennsis not the way to go.

Okay. So wooden racquet on grass just like in the 1880s wearing all white long trousers is the ideal to test players. Who knows where the ball will bounce? Will you get grass stains on your freshly white outfit? What will you do during the three day rain delay? No wonder Agassi skipped for a while lol

Disclosure: never played on grass or artificial grass.
 
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Mazz Retic

Hall of Fame
Okay. So wooden racquet on grass just like in the 1880s wearing all white long trousers is the ideal to test players. Who knows where the ball will bounce? Will you get grass stains on your freshly white outfit? What will you do during the three day rain delay? No wonder Agassi skipped for a while lol

Disclosure: never played on grass or artificial grass.
Part of what maked the natural surfaces so interesting including clay is they allow for different types of ability, shot making, skill etc.. By getting rid of grass or clay you lose that variety. Artifical grass is like hard court with predictable bounce and no real 'odd' behaviour in the court itself.
 

captainbryce

Hall of Fame
Because as a surface IT SUCKS! The bounce is untrue, the surface wears unevenly, it becomes slippery when either wet or dirt worn, and the net is always too loose and flopping. The only reason it's still a surface at all is because of tradition. Realistically, despite the GOAT match having been played on the surface, it's the worst surface for producing quality tennis IMO. Wimbledon is the greatest grand slam though (in terms of prestige). So it's a balancing act of wanting to respect the tournament and to be competitive at the greatest grand slam, and avoiding playing on a crappy surface.
 

Goosehead

Legend
dilly ding, dilly dong.

oh oh oh let the grass grow, we sow, we mow, no horses or cows or vomit or wasps.

and no ghetto blasters from the old days allowed.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Because as a surface IT SUCKS! The bounce is untrue, the surface wears unevenly, it becomes slippery when either wet or dirt worn, and the net is always too loose and flopping. The only reason it's still a surface at all is because of tradition. Realistically, despite the GOAT match having been played on the surface, it's the worst surface for producing quality tennis IMO. Wimbledon is the greatest grand slam though (in terms of prestige). So it's a balancing act of wanting to respect the tournament and to be competitive at the greatest grand slam, and avoiding playing on a crappy surface.

I would agree with everything you said there if I had thought you were talking about clay! ;):cool:
 
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