Why we keep on about Laver

noeledmonds

Professional
Laver is the GOAT

Before I talk about Laver's achivements let me inform those of you who are unaware how tennis worked pre-open era.

Professionals were not allowed to enter grand slams, only amateur players were. Rod Laver turned professional after completing his first Grand Slam in 1962. Therefore from 1963 until 1967 Laver was unable to compete in any grand slam events. However there were Majors for professionals that were the equivalent of grand slams. These majors were the US Pro, the French Pro and the Wembley Pro. These were the biggest events in tennis for professionals before 1968.

Here are some of Laver's achivements:

Won 181 Tournaments
Won 19 Majors (6 pre-open era grand slams, 8 pro events, 5 open-era grand slams)
Won The Grand Slam twice (winning all 4 grand slam events in the same calander year)
Won the Pro Slam once (the professional equivalent of The Grand Slam before the open-era)
Spent an estimated 7 years finishing at World Number 1 (although there was not an offical ranking system like there is today this is the figure most experts have agreed on)
Won 22 tournaments in a pre-open era year (in 1962, the most ever won in a single pre-open era year)
Won 18 tournaments in an open-era year (in 1969, most ever in an open-era year)

The Competition:

This is a common critisism I hear of the Rod Laver era. People say that the competition is weak. The people who say this are almost exclusively people who have not watched the early game. While it is true that the players from 50 to 100 in the rankings are probabely stronger today than there were back then, it is also true that the top 10 or 20 were probabely stronger back in Laver's time. While it is true that a players first or second round oponents were often weaker than todays by the time the quarter-final, or latest the semi-final was reached the players were playing multi-slam champions with complete games (not the likes of Davydenko and Ljubicic). Generally it does not matter if a player such as Federer is playing Björn Phau (Federer's first round oponent at the AO) or someone worse. Either first round oponent should be easily dismissed by a great champion. It is later in the tournament against the better players who are nearer to your own standard that the matches become closer. Consider that Federer passes Björn Phau with ease and Laver passes M Di Domenico (Laver's 1969 AO first round oponent) with even more ease. However come the quarters Federer has Robredo and Laver has Fred Stolle (2 time slam champion and 8 time slams finalist). Come the semi-final Federer has Roddick (1 time slam champion and 4 time slam finalist) while Laver has Roche (1 time slam champion and 6 time slam finalist). Both players have weak finalists with Federer having Gonzalez and Laver has Gimeno (1 time slam champion). However Laver has had the harder latter part of the draw. Incidentally I choose these draws at random, and obviously both Federer and Laver have had harder slam draws. Laver beat the very best on grass and clay at the grand slams, overcoming the likes of Newcombe on grass and Rosewall on clay.

The Surfaces:

Here is another reason I here often. Most people think that Laver never played on hard courts. This is not true, Laver never won a slam on hard courts because there were no slams on hard courts when Laver played (both AO and USO were grass). Laver did win the big hard court events at the time however (such as the South African Open at Ellis Park, Johannesburg and US Pro at Boston). He also won the big indoor events (such as Philadephia US Pro Indoor and Wembley British Indoor). There is no reason to suspect that Laver would have not won The Grand Slam had one of the slams been played on hard court. Note that people use Borg as an example of a player who could win on hard courts but not at the hard court slam (USO). This is incorrect reasoning as it was not the surface that stopped Borg winning the USO. Borg hated the noisy crowds and the late night sessions under the lights. Borg performed relativly poorley all accross the USA because of this. Two of the grand slam finals that Borg reached at the USO were actually played on green clay and not hard court at all, thus reinforcing the fact that it was the area not the surface that bothered Borg. Laver won many events throughout the USA so there is no reason to suspect he would have been bothered like Borg was.

The Physicalness of the Game:

The physical fitness of the players was very high back then. They were not hitting the ball as hard consitantly, but this was down to the older equipment. Players played 5 set matches from the semi-finals onwards even in many smaller tournaments. There were no tiebreaks, so sets sometimes went to scores of 22-20 or more. This meant for exhausting matches. The players also played a hectic doubles schedule, and Laver won 6 doubles grand slams accross his career (4 pre-open era and 2 open-era). Player did not have the same kind of assistance from nutritionists and personal trainder that they have today. In fact the players often took public flights to get between tournaments and arranged traveling themselves. These flights were normally indirect and Vilas stated that many players left the tour simply because of the hassel and stress of the oranisational side.

General Consensus:

I also here the arguement that most people think that Sampras is the GOAT so he must be. This is because most people know very little about Laver's achivements and have never seen him play. Therefore they disregard him. Those who are more knowledgable tend to choose Laver over the likes of Sampras or Pancho Gonzales (I am not going into a debate about Gonzales now though).


N.B I am aware that by counting slams from the pre-open era and the professional equivalent I am effectivly handing out two sets of grand slams, one to ameteur and one to professional. This does favour Laver's pre-open era case as he did not compete against professionals for his pre-open era slams or ametuers for his pro tournament. Even taking this into account though it should be obvious that Laver is considerably ahead of the likes of Sampras and Federer. Remember that also Laver's years as a professional pre-open era had only 3 pro events (slam equivalents) so Laver had less majors he could win during some of the best years of his playing career.
 

keithchircop

Professional
Laver was a God. He could win on any surface, ice included. Unfortunately his era was a long time ago so most people don't even know he existed. Same thing is happening with Borg (5 slams on grass, 5 slams on clay). Hell, a lot of Fed fans around here don't know much about Sampras either.
 
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grafrules

Banned
Laver is the GOAT

Before I talk about Laver's achivements let me inform those of you who are unaware how tennis worked pre-open era.

Professionals were not allowed to enter grand slams, only amateur players were. Rod Laver turned professional after completing his first Grand Slam in 1962. Therefore from 1963 until 1967 Laver was unable to compete in any grand slam events. However there were Majors for professionals that were the equivalent of grand slams. These majors were the US Pro, the French Pro and the Wembley Pro. These were the biggest events in tennis for professionals before 1968.

Here are some of Laver's achivements:

Won 181 Tournaments
Won 19 Majors (6 pre-open era grand slams, 8 pro events, 5 open-era grand slams)

There is a real problem with just giving him credit for all those Slams he won amateur and pro as the same as if it were the Open era, and people would be far over-generous to do so. Since the game was split into the amateur game and the pro game, everyone was not together the way it is now. The perception though during that time was almost always that the best pros were better then the best amateurs, and that is true regarding Laver too as his 1963 pro debut showed. So you still are crediting him for 6 pre-open era slams, while still giving him full value for all his pro event slams. It is quite possible he would have won 0 of those pre-open era grand slams had it been the open era, or maybe only 1.

Also who knows if he would have achieved the grand slam twice had it been the open era. He sure as hell would not have in 1962, there is a good chance he would have won 0 slams that year.

Unless you are willing to subtract as well as add, there is no point changing what actually happened which is 11 Slams and the calender slam twice. If you want to add in the interim pro years, you could easily subtract as well.
 
Although your thesis appears to be logical and you make some interesting points, there is no way Laver, at 5'8", is a better player than Federer, Sampras, and even Bill Tilden. So long as the serve remains the most important shot in tennis where height is so important, the diminutive Laver could not possibly be the best ever! Also, the sport is world wide and the level and depth of competition is so much greater today than the relatively few countries(US, Australia,France, England) in Laver's era. Of course, you can be too tall and have a great serve but lack mobility. Looking at the atp top 30 list the average height for the best movement and strokes appears to be 6-6'2 not 5'8!
 

noeledmonds

Professional
Unless you are willing to subtract as well as add, there is no point changing what actually happened which is 11 Slams and the calender slam twice. If you want to add in the interim pro years, you could easily subtract as well.

Why is everyone so obsessed with slam count in isolation?

I don't believe slam count alone determines how great a player is. However if you insist on contineing down this road then we will add and then subtract so we have 8+5=13 majors. Now we consider that this still includes 2 Calander Grand Slams. Also there were only 3 pro majors except for in 1967. So if we take Laver's 7 pro majors (excluding the Wimbledon Pro), then divide by 3 then times by 4 to average it out for the same number of events we get this: 7/3= 2.33 (rec.) then 2.33 (rec.) x 4= 10.33 (rec.) which rounds down to 10. This would make his total slam count 10+5= 15 slams. You can manipulate figures all day, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Rosewall has more majors than Laver but few would consider him greater than Laver. It is not Laver's slam count that makes him great it is his versitility accross all the surfaces, his sustained dominance and his calander grand slams. You must remember that the calander grand slam was considered the piniacle achivement for a tennis player until recently. Many modern fans no longer consider it so significant as they are unaware of the history and prestiage that surrounds it.
 

noeledmonds

Professional
Although your thesis appears to be logical and you make some interesting points, there is no way Laver, at 5'8", is a better player than Federer, Sampras, and even Bill Tilden. So long as the serve remains the most important shot in tennis where height is so important, the diminutive Laver could not possibly be the best ever! Also, the sport is world wide and the level and depth of competition is so much greater today than the relatively few countries(US, Australia,France, England) in Laver's era. Of course, you can be too tall and have a great serve but lack mobility. Looking at the atp top 30 list the average height for the best movement and strokes appears to be 6-6'2 not 5'8!

The game has changed and this is what makes comparisons difficult. We can only compare on achivements and competition at the time. In Laver's day there were different character traits required to play the game compared with today. Any comparison of how Federer would play against Laver with equal equipent is purely hypothetic and cannot be used as valid evidence in any debate.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
The game has changed and this is what makes comparisons difficult. We can only compare on achivements and competition at the time. In Laver's day there were different character traits required to play the game compared with today. Any comparison of how Federer would play against Laver with equal equipent is purely hypothetic and cannot be used as valid evidence in any debate.

I remember John MCenroe saying the same thing, he said:

''I believe Rod Laver was the best of all time, but at 5 foot 9 inches how's he gonna return Sampras's serve''

A) the same way hewitt did of course!
 

callitout

Professional
I remember John MCenroe saying the same thing, he said:

''I believe Rod Laver was the best of all time, but at 5 foot 9 inches how's he gonna return Sampras's serve''

A) the same way hewitt did of course!

This is not the issue. It's how's he gonna get 30-40 free points/match.
10-15 aces and 20-25 easy winners off weak replies.
 

robinho17

New User
I remember John MCenroe saying the same thing, he said:

''I believe Rod Laver was the best of all time, but at 5 foot 9 inches how's he gonna return Sampras's serve''

A) the same way hewitt did of course!

Exactly..look at the best returners of the game..a good percentage of them have been under 6 foot, Take a look at Andre Agassi certainly the best returner of the Open Era, let alone history of the game. Then there is Lleyton Hewitt, Michael Chang, and currently i believe the best returner in the game is David Ferrer ,ranked 8 in the world who only stands at 5'9 who cracks every serve on return.
 

jmsx521

Hall of Fame
Such a great player, but unfortunately back in those days he didn't make much money.... Started his own soap business, and that's when he started making the big money!
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
There is a real problem with just giving him credit for all those Slams he won amateur and pro as the same as if it were the Open era, and people would be far over-generous to do so. Since the game was split into the amateur game and the pro game, everyone was not together the way it is now. The perception though during that time was almost always that the best pros were better then the best amateurs, and that is true regarding Laver too as his 1963 pro debut showed. So you still are crediting him for 6 pre-open era slams, while still giving him full value for all his pro event slams. It is quite possible he would have won 0 of those pre-open era grand slams had it been the open era, or maybe only 1.

Also who knows if he would have achieved the grand slam twice had it been the open era. He sure as hell would not have in 1962, there is a good chance he would have won 0 slams that year.

Unless you are willing to subtract as well as add, there is no point changing what actually happened which is 11 Slams and the calender slam twice. If you want to add in the interim pro years, you could easily subtract as well.

I agree. With how great Laver was, one has to remember that many of the tourneys he played in were filled with recreational players in the early rounds because they often were unable to field an antire draw of "pros" or "amateurs".
 
Noel (et al): great points above.
I only saw Laver actually play when he was already past his prime, but if I may add a paragraph or two here on his brilliance.....

Laver could play serve and volley and he could play sort of like Nastase or Federer.

Serve/return and attack the net behind a tough approach. Or play superb defense. Deep, deep, nice little angle, deep, wrongfoot the guy, then whip a topspin BH to the other corner and go it.

My favorite was when nothing worked and his opponent would get the ball back too deep for Rocket to attack. He'd just take a deep shot out of the air and stroke a topspin BH swing volley deep to a corner and glide on for either a dropvolley or an illegible (and eceptively hard) overhead smash.

And the crowd shakes their head -- truly the 60s and early-70s version of Federer's Funhaus.

Wish I'd seen Lew Hoad play live.
 

robinho17

New User
Noel (et al): great points above.
I only saw Laver actually play when he was already past his prime, but if I may add a paragraph or two here on his brilliance.....

Laver could play serve and volley and he could play sort of like Nastase or Federer.

Serve/return and attack the net behind a tough approach. Or play superb defense. Deep, deep, nice little angle, deep, wrongfoot the guy, then whip a topspin BH to the other corner and go it.

My favorite was when nothing worked and his opponent would get the ball back too deep for Rocket to attack. He'd just take a deep shot out of the air and stroke a topspin BH swing volley deep to a corner and glide on for either a dropvolley or an illegible (and eceptively hard) overhead smash.

And the crowd shakes their head -- truly the 60s and early-70s version of Federer's Funhaus.

Wish I'd seen Lew Hoad play live.


I envy you.My dream is to see the Rocket and Federer play together two great Artists of the past and present.
 

saram

Legend
There cannot be a GOAT in tennis unless Roger wins the FO twice, wins about 25 GS's, and holds the #1 ranking for about six years. I don't see that happening. We just cannot compare generations to generations. It is impossible with technology and surfaces continually changing.
 

ninman

Hall of Fame
Does anyone think we'll see an amateur Tennis player winning a Grand Slam? The standard of proffessional tennis is so high now that it's totally inconceivable.
 
D

Deleted member 3771

Guest
If the best doubles player ever, Woodbridge, can be just 5'9"1/2 , why cant the best singles player ever be just a little shorter.

Although your thesis appears to be logical and you make some interesting points, there is no way Laver, at 5'8", is a better player than Federer, Sampras, and even Bill Tilden. So long as the serve remains the most important shot in tennis where height is so important, the diminutive Laver could not possibly be the best ever! Also, the sport is world wide and the level and depth of competition is so much greater today than the relatively few countries(US, Australia,France, England) in Laver's era. Of course, you can be too tall and have a great serve but lack mobility. Looking at the atp top 30 list the average height for the best movement and strokes appears to be 6-6'2 not 5'8!
 

cknobman

Legend
Your theory on Laver is opinionated and one sided. I offer little merit to your argument.

The thread title states "Why keep on about Laver" but the first thing you do is "keep on about Laver"
 

urban

Legend
I think, one of Laver's greatest legacies is, that he was a 'players player'. A whole generation of champions and some even later modelled their game in some ways after Laver. It began with Borg, who imitated his poker face, and was followed by McEnroe, who was inspired by his leftie spin game. Fellow lefties Vilas and Leconte modelled their topspin backhand after Laver's shot. Also the East Europeans like Lendl, and especially Navratilova idolized Laver. In the 60s, Navratilova saw him playing in Prague, and decided:" That was the player i wanted to be". The new generation in the late 80s, hadn't seen Laver play live. But nevertheless, Sampras was taught by his mentor Pete Fischer, to model his game after him. Fischer showed him films of Laver, to study the importance of serve and volley and the one handed backhand.

Laver played a semi-Continental grip for all his shots, of course with a wooden Dunlop Maxply. But even if you see Laver's 40 years old matches now, you can recognize,that he played a quite modern game, with spins and angles, quick shoulder turns and dynamic racket speed, generated by the power of the wrist. His versatility on the backhand side, to go over and under the ball, to find impossible angles, and to hit winners on the full run, is in my eyes still unsurpassed.
 

Rhino

Legend
The Competition:

This is a common critisism I hear of the Rod Laver era. People say that the competition is weak. The people who say this are almost exclusively people who have not watched the early game.

This is bullsh!t. I've seen interviews with a lot of oldie legends (on a history of tennis dvd I have) and they all say that the competition is much stronger these days.
 

CyBorg

Legend
This is bullsh!t. I've seen interviews with a lot of oldie legends (on a history of tennis dvd I have) and they all say that the competition is much stronger these days.

Behold. The unblemished proof that Laver's era was weak.
 

noeledmonds

Professional
The thread title states "Why keep on about Laver" but the first thing you do is "keep on about Laver"

No the thread is called "Why we keep on about Laver". We of course reffering to those such as myself who do not foget the greats who have since left the public eye.

I've seen interviews with a lot of oldie legends (on a history of tennis dvd I have) and they all say that the competition is much stronger these days.

They talk in reference to depth not to strength. Please try to understand the distinction.
 
It's impossible to compare different era's in any sport. I guarantee you that the worst team in the NFL right now (you pick 'em) would defeat the Green Bay Packers of the '60's. The average weight of a lineman in the 60's was about 250 pounds. It's now well over 300. Tese guys are not only bigger but faster and more agile. Athlete's have evolved, either legally or illegally. I also guarantee that if you started a tournament with all the great players of the past and present in their prime, Federer is edging Sampras in a five set thriller. Laver might not even be able to be on tour today, things have changed that much. BUT, its not fair to compare era's and its a fool's errand to try.
 

tHotGates

Rookie
Nice post noeledmonds. About the height factor, this may sound stupid but I have to wonder if Laver was born say 1980s or so would he actually be taller? I know some or many will scoff at this but our diet has changed so much that I don't think it is far fetched to think he might be an inch or two taller. This doesn't just apply to to Laver but to all athletes of an earlier generation. Everything we eat today is super sized. A tomato is a lot bigger today than it was in 1980. There are of course numerous dietary examples but I think the point is clear in that the changes are real. From cattle feed to pesticides etc. Children are physically developing earlier than they did in previous generations & are of course larger than their parents (excluding the obesity problem).The inverse would also apply with modern players being born to an earlier generation. Food for thought.
 

urban

Legend
Quite right, tHotGates and Noeledmonds. 30 years ago, the medium height for a male was 1,75 m (Laver's height). Today it is 1,82 m. Better nutrition and food plays a vital role here. In other sports you can see the evolvement, too. The great football strikers of the past (Pele, Müller, Puskas, Di Stefano, Greaves) were all around 1,70. Today, since the time of van Basten, Ronaldo, Henry, Toni, the size is around 1,90. That doesn't mean, that small strikers like Romario or Maradona couldn't do well even today.
 

Rhino

Legend
Behold. The unblemished proof that Laver's era was weak.

Well I'd tend to trust the opinion of the guys who were there actually playing in that era and know exactly how strong it was, over some guy who posts on a tennis forum.
Oh. I just realised. You're probably one of those guys who can't bear the thought of lavers era being thought of as weak.
No worries, whatever.
 

Rhino

Legend
They talk in reference to depth not to strength. Please try to understand the distinction.

I understand exactly the distinction. Please try to refrain from assuming that people who think you are wrong must therefore have misunderstood you.
 

kimizz

Rookie
I truly believe it is only the achievements that matter if you try to compare players from different eras.
 

martin

Banned
There's no comparison. Kids of five years old are getting drilled these days to become the next champion. Ofcourse the competition and level of play is much higher.
 
There's no comparison. Kids of five years old are getting drilled these days to become the next champion. Ofcourse the competition and level of play is much higher.

See this is where everyone is getting it wrong.. There are more people playing, so yes the competition is higher, but the "level" in my mind is lower. Big difference if you ask me..

Watch Laver hit a ball off both sides with the racquet that he used in those days. Now ask the players of today with thier wok sized racquets to show us as much grace and control as the oldies. I think kids today mistake power for greatness. But being able to hit the ball harder then the next doesnt seem to be the winning formula. Just ask Roddick. And I am only using him as an example.

Also, people say that in the days of S&V, the points were short, and it was boring to watch. Well yes that was true, but that was only during the 80's and 90's that this was the case.

In my mind, it was Mac that inveted that fast approach at all costs net game that Edberg, Cash, Rafter ect took on later. But before that, The players would and could only be regarded as all court players.. Even at Wimbledon, the players rallied before making thier way into the net. It wasnt all just S&V.. Infact, I would even suggest that I feel that the game of today is starting to change, and believe that an all court game will be the norm in 5 years time. Federer is basically the only one doing it, and so he is the one winning. The days of bashing are over I feel. And the old school game will return. But in a faster form..
 
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CyBorg

Legend
Well I'd tend to trust the opinion of the guys who were there actually playing in that era and know exactly how strong it was, over some guy who posts on a tennis forum.
Oh. I just realised. You're probably one of those guys who can't bear the thought of lavers era being thought of as weak.
No worries, whatever.

Behold. The unblemished proof that Rhino knows more than anyone else on Talk Tennis.
 

chaognosis

Semi-Pro
Also, people say that in the days of S&V, the points were short, and it was boring to watch. Well yes that was true, but that was only during the 80's and 90's that this was the case.

In my mind, it was Mac that inveted that fast approach at all costs net game that Edberg, Cash, Rafter ect took on later. But before that, The players would and could only be regarded as all court players.. Even at Wimbledon, the players rallied before making thier way into the net. It wasnt all just S&V.. Infact, I would even suggest that I feel that the game of today is starting to change, and believe that an all court game will be the norm in 5 years time. Federer is basically the only one doing it, and so he is the one winning. The days of bashing are over I feel. And the old school game will return. But in a faster form..

Actually, it was Jack Kramer who really brought this style to the fore in the 1940s. It was considered quite exciting at first; Kramer at Wimbledon in 1947 was described by one reporter as "a presence of unutterable awe." Of course, Kramer didn't invent serve-and-volley, but he was the player who most perfectly embodied the philosophy of "percentage tennis." The prime objective was to get to net as often and as quickly as possible. Kramer's teacher, an automotive engineer named Cliff Roche, had calculated that the odds favored a player if he came to net behind every serve, and most returns as well. (There were other tenets too, regarding many aspects of the game, but these received less attention.) This style, also known as the "Big Game," was widely upheld as the only possible winning formula on fast courts for many years. What characterized the best of these players, including Kramer himself as well as Gonzales and the great Aussies--Sedgman, Rosewall, Hoad, Laver, Newcombe, etc.--was that they also had solid, and in some cases superior, groundstrokes with which to back up their serve-and-volley play. So yes, in some sense, they can all be considered "all-court players," but then so can McEnroe, whose ground game is today underrated. But what I really want to point out is this: the complaints about points being too short go back much, much farther than Edberg, Cash, or McEnroe. I have a book from 1969, Tennis Styles and Stylists by Paul Metzler, where the last chapter is devoted to suggestions for how to improve the game by slowing it down and prolonging points. The author felt, and apparently others did too, that the popularity of tennis was doomed if the "Big Game" continued to dominate championship tennis. Far from a new phenomenon, it is a problem that has doggedly plagued tennis, with some interruption, since World War II.
 
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BTURNER

Legend
Why is everyone so obsessed with slam count in isolation?

I don't believe slam count alone determines how great a player is. However if you insist on contineing down this road then we will add and then subtract so we have 8+5=13 majors. Now we consider that this still includes 2 Calander Grand Slams. Also there were only 3 pro majors except for in 1967. So if we take Laver's 7 pro majors (excluding the Wimbledon Pro), then divide by 3 then times by 4 to average it out for the same number of events we get this: 7/3= 2.33 (rec.) then 2.33 (rec.) x 4= 10.33 (rec.) which rounds down to 10. This would make his total slam count 10+5= 15 slams. You can manipulate figures all day, but you have to look at the bigger picture. Rosewall has more majors than Laver but few would consider him greater than Laver. It is not Laver's slam count that makes him great it is his versitility accross all the surfaces, his sustained dominance and his calander grand slams. You must remember that the calander grand slam was considered the piniacle achivement for a tennis player until recently. Many modern fans no longer consider it so significant as they are unaware of the history and prestiage that surrounds it.
The reason modern fans no longer think a calender slam is that significant is because it is arbitrary and artificial. Anyone who think four slams in a row is more important than five or six in a row because the four are precisely calibrated to the calender year is a fool. Giving greater weight to Graf's five in a row over Navratilova's six in a row because of a start date and end date is idiocy. Next question. Does the dominance over a year or year and a half that "consecutive" implies that significant a factor anyway? This is not indicative of an era, just about 19 months of time anyway.
 
Thanks chaognosis.. That was interesting to say the least. Although I am now in my early thirties, I can remember an older Laver playing, and growing up in Australia seeing all the other greats from time to time also. I guess we are fortunate in Australia that we as a nation see not only tennis, but sport in general as a huge part of our life and history, and so for that we are lucky that alot of that history has been well documented. Growing up when I did, if you dont know who all the greats were (even if tennis wasnt your thing) then you must have been sitting under a rock. So although not a true expert on all things tennis, I can only make comments and opinions based on my feeling of that certain topic. Its members like yourself that obviously have a broader knowledge of the game that allowes me to put what I have seen, and how I have understood it, and then look at it from a wider perspective.
 

BTURNER

Legend
I submit, the real importance is establishing dominance on every slam venue and surface. "Prestige" can show a lack of imagination as much as relevance. As long as Wimbledon remains one the best showcases of tennis as a sport, it will deserve its prestige as ONE OF THE BEST showcases of tennis. The day it doesn't , is the day the prestige should die.
 

BTURNER

Legend
There was a time, in the late 80's-90's when the worst showcase for tennis amoung the slams ... was Wimbledon. It had lots of tradition surrounding lots of lousy tennis matches with some glittering sets thrown in.
 

kimizz

Rookie
See this is where everyone is getting it wrong.. There are more people playing, so yes the competition is higher, but the "level" in my mind is lower. Big difference if you ask me..

Watch Laver hit a ball off both sides with the racquet that he used in those days. Now ask the players of today with thier wok sized racquets to show us as much grace and control as the oldies. I think kids today mistake power for greatness. But being able to hit the ball harder then the next doesnt seem to be the winning formula. Just ask Roddick. And I am only using him as an example.
This is just wrong, there is no comparasion between eras. Modern players hit with power and the oldies had graceful strokes, yes I agree. But its just the way they grew up. You cannot say the modern players are inferior to Laver cause they are all about power. You dont know what the modern players could do had they learned tennis the way Laver did, with the wooden racquet etc

This is why I still think you can only look at achievements if you try to compare players from different eras. This is not a perfect way to compare BUT I think its the most accurate way.
 

noeledmonds

Professional
The reason modern fans no longer think a calender slam is that significant is because it is arbitrary and artificial. Anyone who think four slams in a row is more important than five or six in a row because the four are precisely calibrated to the calender year is a fool. Giving greater weight to Graf's five in a row over Navratilova's six in a row because of a start date and end date is idiocy. Next question. Does the dominance over a year or year and a half that "consecutive" implies that significant a factor anyway? This is not indicative of an era, just about 19 months of time anyway.

Of course it is artificial but as is the whole calander system and indeed the rules of tennis. Number of "match wins" is artifical, why not base your views on "number of points won". This is clearly ridulous, but no more artificial than making up a calander year. In the same way people consider year end number 1 to be more significant than holding the number 1 ranking at any other time of the year. Whilst we work to an artifical frame work you must accept that achivements that fit neatly into this framework will be more considered impressive and significant.
 
This is just wrong, there is no comparasion between eras. Modern players hit with power and the oldies had graceful strokes, yes I agree. But its just the way they grew up. You cannot say the modern players are inferior to Laver cause they are all about power. You dont know what the modern players could do had they learned tennis the way Laver did, with the wooden racquet etc

This is why I still think you can only look at achievements if you try to compare players from different eras. This is not a perfect way to compare BUT I think its the most accurate way.

Well power is only useful if you aren't being run from side to side by a player that can hit the corners with ease and ad the odd drop shot.. Laver set up a point. Roddick tries to hit out of one.. Yes. There is a big difference..

Oh, and on achievment alone... Yes Laver still is the GOAT..
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
It's impossible to compare different era's in any sport. I guarantee you that the worst team in the NFL right now (you pick 'em) would defeat the Green Bay Packers of the '60's. The average weight of a lineman in the 60's was about 250 pounds. It's now well over 300. These guys are not only bigger but faster and more agile. Athlete's have evolved, either legally or illegally. I also guarantee that if you started a tournament with all the great players of the past and present in their prime, Federer is edging Sampras in a five set thriller. Laver might not even be able to be on tour today, things have changed that much. BUT, its not fair to compare era's and its a fool's errand to try.

But such a comparison works both ways, not just one. Would today's players be able to hit with yesterdays wooden racquets? Back then it was less about power, and more about placement. Laver could put the ball any where with incredible spin. I believe that today's top 10 would have a hard time keeping the ball in the court (mishits galore), or would be completely exhausted with sore arms after one hour.

Sampras has said that the sweetspot on his Pro Staff was about the size of a tennis ball. The wooden racquet has a headsize of 65-70 sq. inches, so the sweetspot was the size of a postage stamp.

I played with a Dunlop Maxply, Wilson Kramer Pro Staff, and Donnay Borg Pro before moving to a PS 6.0. The Borg Pro was (IMO) the worst, because you had to string it at 70+ pounds to feel the ball, and still the sweetspot was still microscopic. But when you found the ball was laser-guided.

It is so hard to compare.
 
There was a time, in the late 80's-90's when the worst showcase for tennis amoung the slams ... was Wimbledon. ....

You sound like you have numerous examples from the late 80s-90s. Are you able to share them with us?

85 and 86: I realize this is not the late 80s, but it marked the beginning of what's probably your point, as Becker threw down the heavy power tennis. However he did it with lots of net play, diving and drop volleying. If this is the worst showcase, sign me up. If anything, I think Kevin Curren's rise to the 85 final illustrates your point. I agree, this is less beautiful that the 79-84 finals.

Okay, late eighties through nineties....

87 final, Cashy over Lendl. Great match. Lots of nuance. Very happy for Cash. Good display of the beautiful game, strength, speed and superior net play. Also some sweet lobs.

88, 89, 90 finals. Becker and Edberg. Most people in the tennis industry absolutely swoon over these three finals.

91 Stich upsetting Becker. Yeah, large serving and short points, but a memorable final for sure.

92 final. Agassi stayed back a lot and managed to beat a very green Goran.

93 final: Pete's first of seven Wimbledon titles. Fairly close two sets against Courier, who stayed back a LOT.

94 final. Pete over Goran. Short points. Your point rings true here.

95 final. Unbelievable semi: Boris over Andre. Then the 1st set with Pete in the final was great. Then Pete took over and Boris had no legs.

96 final: Krajicek tournced Washington in an okay match. Your point sort of rings true here as well. But there was the streaker, which was good for a laugh.

97 final: Sampras over Pioline. Though it was one-sided, fans of shotmaking and tylish tennis were not disappointed. Hell of a semi, too with Pioline and Stich.

98 final: Awesome match between Pete and Goran. 5 sets!!

99 final, Agassi played well, but nowhere near the great Sampras.

Worst showcase? Sorry, for the most part, I disagree.
 
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kimizz

Rookie
Well power is only useful if you aren't being run from side to side by a player that can hit the corners with ease and ad the odd drop shot.. Laver set up a point. Roddick tries to hit out of one.. Yes. There is a big difference..

Oh, and on achievment alone... Yes Laver still is the GOAT..
Ya Laver is the goat I agree with this! Or Sampras...depends how you rate the calendar year Grand Slam against Sampras 14 majors titles.

What I disagree is when you talked how the modern players are inferior when compared to the oldies. Your argument was that the modern players are all about power-->therefore they suck and are inferior. Reason why modern players are power players is because of racquet technology. So you cant compare game styles between Roddick and Laver. It just doesnt work...they learned the game of tennis in different ways, in different ERAS!
 
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tHotGates

Rookie
A lot of great points here. It's threads like this that make this forum so enjoyable. Thanks for the insight fellas. It's nice to see earlier generations (in all sports) get their due. I only wish I could have seen more of Laver & others (I was too young then) than just the occasional video highlights.
 

Jonny S&V

Hall of Fame
Laver was a God. He could win on any surface, ice included. Unfortunately his era was a long time ago so most people don't even know he existed. Same thing is happening with Borg (5 slams on grass, 5 slams on clay). Hell, a lot of Fed fans around here don't know much about Sampras either.

6, but who's counting.
 

CyBorg

Legend
Mid-80s lawn tennis is probably my favorite grass court tennis to watch.

85-90 in particular. I loved watching Becker and when Edberg established himself it was beautiful. Power and finesse.

I watched a number of matches from this period a few months ago and it was a great feeling. So much so that I even wondered if I was watching the peak of grass court tennis.

Of course it wasn't the peak, but it felt like it at times. What we had was a marvellous combination of the past and the present coming together. Wood was on the outs in the early 80s but many of these guys still grew up playing a style mimicked after the Borgs and McEnroes, so wood had a great impact on their lives. However there was also this added power element which was not there before. Note the fact that the generation was by and large very young at this time and it was exciting, energetic tennis - probably unmatched since.

After a while the rackets became even more powerful and tennis became increasingly one-dimensional. Rallies on grass became annoyingly short because of the advances in racket technology. Guys also started covering less of the court, not moving their feet as much. Grass court tennis has been unexceptional to watch since.
 

cknobman

Legend
A good part of lavers career had major events with club players in them. Your overrating his "greatness".
 
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