williams sisters' technical deficiencies

Jack Romeo

Professional
we all know about the lack of preparation, the unfocused mentality, the suboptimal physical conditioning and the general decline in confidence. but i'd like to point out some technical flaws that have creeped in to the williamses' games lately, especially serena's.

venus techniques especially on the serve and forehand have always been prone to breaking down even during her glory days of 2000-2001. but now, even her backhand seems unreliable. wasn't it 2 consecutive backhand errors that ultimately cost her that first round match against pironkova?

the sisters, serena in particular, are just not serving and returning like before. it is said that the serve and the return are 80% of the game. no wonder she is so far from her dominating form from 2002-2003. serena always had, and still has, a nice smooth service motion. in fact, both williams sisters still serve the hardest first serves on tour. but both have failed to back up those big first serves with reliable second serves. and if the saying that "you're only as good as your second serve" is true, then it's no wonder why the sisters are so far from where they should be.

i recall that when serena was dominating the tour, her second serve was considered the best on tour. she hit it around 90-105mph and with heavy spin (both kick and slice) and was always brave enough to go for the lines. but now, she lacks racket head speed and many of her second serves are sitting ducks for her opponents to attack. the stats from the hantuchova match are typical of serena's matches of late: she averaged only 85mph on her second serve and won only 31% of those points when she had to hit a second serve.

lastly, both sisters have been far less effective with their returns recently. they used to possess some of the most punishing returns. they'd plant themselves inside the baseline - a'la monica seles - and step in to whack the ball to the lines. they still try to do that but they've been missing a lot now. from the hantuchova match again: serena won only 33% of recieving points (compared to 45% for daniela).

2 of the more successful power players of recent times have been lindsay davenport and mary pierce. both have awesome serves and returns. while both are in peak shape, i still submit that the williams sisters, at their current physical state, can still at least match the footspeed of either pierce or davenport, due to their overabundance of natural athleticism. that is, even if serena is packing a few extra pounds or venus hampered by some new injury, they'd still be at least as good movers as lindsay or mary. so if only the sisters could work on their declining serves (especially second serves) and returns, they should still be top 5 players, and serious threats to win any tournament they enter.
 

chess9

Hall of Fame
You have to want to play competitively. If you don't want it, it will show.

Serena obviously doesn't want it. Her problem is at the training table as well. If she sorted out how she felt about playing the WTA, she'd get her body into shape.

If Serena gets back into shape that means she really cares about playing. If that moment comes, I don't think many women could beat her regularly. She should be top 3 as long as she wants it.


-Robert
________
Cerebral Palsy Advice
 
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8PAQ

Banned
chess9 said:
You have to want to play competitively. If you don't want it, it will show.

Serena obviously doesn't want it. Her problem is at the training table as well. If she sorted out how she felt about playing the WTA, she'd get her body into shape.

If Serena gets back into shape that means she really cares about playing. If that moment comes, I don't think many women could beat her regularly. She should be top 3 as long as she wants it.


-Robert

I doubt she will ever beat Sharapova even if she wants it bad. Young players like Sharapova are still getting into their prime while Serena is already moving past hers. It will only get worse as the years go by. Won't matter how much she wants it.

I know Serena is only 24 now. But Sharapova is only 18 and if at 18 she is better than Serena at 24 then at 21 the distance will be even greater. Not to mention by then Vaidisova will be 19 and she will be probably better than both Sharapova or Serena.

Davenport being #1 while being so old, seems to me a fluke due to injuries of Belgians. So I doubt that will happen to Serena in the future.

Conclusion: Serena is out of Top 3 forever no matter how much she trains because the young guns like Sharapova, Vaidisova and Ivanovic will take over.
 

gmc

New User
The Details are in the Clothing

chess9 said:
You have to want to play competitively. If you don't want it, it will show.

Serena obviously doesn't want it. Her problem is at the training table as well. If she sorted out how she felt about playing the WTA, she'd get her body into shape.

If Serena gets back into shape that means she really cares about playing. If that moment comes, I don't think many women could beat her regularly. She should be top 3 as long as she wants it.


-Robert

I would have to agree - you can almost rate her chances by the clothes she wears - when she's fit and feeling good about herself she shows up with the outrageous wardrobes. When she's out of shape and not feeling confident she wears the more traditional outfits. She can get back into the top 3 if she dedicates herself but she has to start right now - her window of opportunity is shrinking by the day.
 

simi

Hall of Fame
Jack Romeo said:
we all know about the lack of preparation...

Nice, well thought out post, Jack. You didn't put down the sisters, nor did you build them up. It was a well balanced, neutral opinion of your observations that show the reality of their situations. I hope they find peace and happiness in whatever they choose to do. They certainly are not finding it the WTA.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
8PAQ said:
I doubt she will ever beat Sharapova even if she wants it bad. Young players like Sharapova are still getting into their prime while Serena is already moving past hers. It will only get worse as the years go by. Won't matter how much she wants it.

I know Serena is only 24 now. But Sharapova is only 18 and if at 18 she is better than Serena at 24 then at 21 the distance will be even greater. Not to mention by then Vaidisova will be 19 and she will be probably better than both Sharapova or Serena.

Davenport being #1 while being so old, seems to me a fluke due to injuries of Belgians. So I doubt that will happen to Serena in the future.

Conclusion: Serena is out of Top 3 forever no matter how much she trains because the young guns like Sharapova, Vaidisova and Ivanovic will take over.

Serena has more natural talent than thoses ovas combined. But she doesn't have the mental strength and the will to do everything that is necessary to be successful. And that excludes her from the small group of great players.
A pity ....
 

bcslice

Rookie
8PAQ said:
I doubt she will ever beat Sharapova even if she wants it bad. Young players like Sharapova are still getting into their prime while Serena is already moving past hers. It will only get worse as the years go by. Won't matter how much she wants it.

I know Serena is only 24 now. But Sharapova is only 18 and if at 18 she is better than Serena at 24 then at 21 the distance will be even greater. Not to mention by then Vaidisova will be 19 and she will be probably better than both Sharapova or Serena.

Davenport being #1 while being so old, seems to me a fluke due to injuries of Belgians. So I doubt that will happen to Serena in the future.

Conclusion: Serena is out of Top 3 forever no matter how much she trains because the young guns like Sharapova, Vaidisova and Ivanovic will take over.

Interesting points 8PAQ, although I disagree with you about two things. First of all, hinting that Sharapova and Serena's careers are comparable is unfair. Sharapova just exploded at such an early age while it took Serena a bit more time to mature. I seriously doubt we'll ever see Sharapova win a non-calendar year Grand Slam like we did with Serena. In fact, you have to admit that Sharapova's mental folding in each of the four Slam tournaments last year was pretty unimpressive for someone who is "going into [her] prime". I'm sure that Sharapova will win a handful of Slam titles and have a very successful and lucrative career, but I do not think that she'll have a better career than Serena. My second point of contention with your statement is that Serena will never beat Sharapova again. I do think that Sharapova is troublesome for Serena because Maria's game is typically very clean, unlike Serena's with lots of errors. You've got to agree that Maria is less mentally sound than Serena, even if she's in better shape physically. If Serena can get her act together and hit the gym on a daily basis, she could definitely defeat Sharapova, especially at Wimbledon, if she serves well.

I agree with you that Serena's likely not to be in the top 3 because of a limited playing schedule, but if she starts playing regularly and wins a Slam this year, it's certainly possible. It's not as if the top 10 is stacked with a powerhouse of players. Dementieva, Petrova, Schnyder, and Pierce are all players that Serena should be beating without any problems if she's in good shape. I guess we'll see...just don't count her out until the end of the year.
 

Pancho

Semi-Pro
Also, williams's sisters racquets - ncode 3 and ncode 4 have little control and are meant for beginners and intermediates. I think they need heavier/better racquets. I have tried the ncode 3, 4 and 1 and I think it is way too light and I get so many errors (goes long) just like the Williams sisters hit it.

The williams sisters need get out of theit hollywood glamour circle and start practising!
 

8PAQ

Banned
bcslice said:
Interesting points 8PAQ, although I disagree with you about two things. First of all, hinting that Sharapova and Serena's careers are comparable is unfair. Sharapova just exploded at such an early age while it took Serena a bit more time to mature. I seriously doubt we'll ever see Sharapova win a non-calendar year Grand Slam like we did with Serena. In fact, you have to admit that Sharapova's mental folding in each of the four Slam tournaments last year was pretty unimpressive for someone who is "going into [her] prime". I'm sure that Sharapova will win a handful of Slam titles and have a very successful and lucrative career, but I do not think that she'll have a better career than Serena. My second point of contention with your statement is that Serena will never beat Sharapova again. I do think that Sharapova is troublesome for Serena because Maria's game is typically very clean, unlike Serena's with lots of errors. You've got to agree that Maria is less mentally sound than Serena, even if she's in better shape physically. If Serena can get her act together and hit the gym on a daily basis, she could definitely defeat Sharapova, especially at Wimbledon, if she serves well.

I agree with you that Serena's likely not to be in the top 3 because of a limited playing schedule, but if she starts playing regularly and wins a Slam this year, it's certainly possible. It's not as if the top 10 is stacked with a powerhouse of players. Dementieva, Petrova, Schnyder, and Pierce are all players that Serena should be beating without any problems if she's in good shape. I guess we'll see...just don't count her out until the end of the year.

I doubt as well that Sharapova will win more Slams than Serena. Her game seems to one dimensional for that. However, I do believe she is not at her peek yet while Serena is most likely past her prime. So even if Serena gets back into shape I think she will still fall behind Sharapova and other young players like Vaidisova or Ivanovic who will no doubt improve significantly over next couple of years.

Serena dominated when she was able to overpower other players on the WTA. She will never be able to that with the new breed of WTA players. They are tall, fast and very fit. And most of all they are not intimidated by Serena.
 

morgan102

New User
8PAQ said:
I doubt she will ever beat Sharapova even if she wants it bad. Young players like Sharapova are still getting into their prime while Serena is already moving past hers. It will only get worse as the years go by. Won't matter how much she wants it.

I know Serena is only 24 now. But Sharapova is only 18 and if at 18 she is better than Serena at 24 then at 21 the distance will be even greater. Not to mention by then Vaidisova will be 19 and she will be probably better than both Sharapova or Serena.

Davenport being #1 while being so old, seems to me a fluke due to injuries of Belgians. So I doubt that will happen to Serena in the future.

Conclusion: Serena is out of Top 3 forever no matter how much she trains because the young guns like Sharapova, Vaidisova and Ivanovic will take over.

Sorry, but you shouldn't base your conclusions on a player's age or 'prime.' Graf, Navratilova, Evert, etc all regularly beat players younger than them, players 'supposedly' in their prime. Athletes peak at different times, and it goes in cycles, so that's a pretty daft statement saying Serena will never be in the top 3 again. How about, Serena will stay out of the top three if she so chooses? Now that's what seems doubtful, that she will ever want the number 1 position again after having been there and done that. I mean, Davenport has been year end #1 for a number of years and the Belgians haven't been injured during every single one. Not to mention that Davenport hasn't supported her #1 ranking with a slam since 2000. Should Serena ever win two again in a year, which isn't entirely out of the question, that would do it.
 

dmastous

Professional
Serena's in her prime now, but decline due to her lack of focus and not working as hard as it is neccessary to stay there. She needs do ab work to improve consistancy on her second serve. She needs to hit thousands of balls, forehands, backhands, volleys. It's a full time job maintaining that peak. She's doing it part time.
Truely I don't know what her or Venus' training habits are, but there's enough talk floating around to indicate it's not up to par.
To me when she's got the outrageous outfits going it means she's spending too much time on the package and not enough time on the product.
The same would be true for any professional athelete in any sport.
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
Some of you hate her so much that you can't assess her objectively. I hate her game, but the Serena of '02/'03 would blow away everyone today. There hasn't been some amazing improvement in power in athlericism/power in the new WTA players, just Serena getting injured/having surgery in '03, missing 9 months, coming back in bad shape, suffering minor injuries, not putting in the work to get back.

Look at who she owned in '02/'03: davenport, mauresmo, henin, clijsters.
Guess what, these players are still ranked near the top of the rankings. they haven't gotten better, serena has gotten worse.
and check out her stats from '02/'03. she served harder, 1 & 2nd serves by a wide margin over any player today inc. Sharapova. She made far more winners per match than anyone today.

the wta hasn't changed much in the last couple years. when hingis makes the final, maybe some of will realize that.
 

arnz

Professional
I wonder how many times I've heard the statement before He/she "has the talent, but not the drive to fulfill it"

If they keep losing, they'll be less famous, less people talkin about them,less endorsements, less money, etc. etc. Without tennis, what would they be famous for???

Unless they are already way too rich that they never need to work another day in their lives, I'd say they are wasting their most productive years making money. Maybe that will be motivation enough, unless, like I said they have more than enough already ;)

As famous as Andre Agassi was/is, he still had to show that he can play. The only one who didnt need to win anything and still be famous is Kournikova, but everyone knows that she has something beyond her tennis (which was non existent pretty much anyway) in which people (guys!!) are interested in
 

dmastous

Professional
arnz said:
I wonder how many times I've heard the statement before He/she "has the talent, but not the drive to fulfill it"
If they keep losing, they'll be less famous, less people talkin about them,less endorsements, less money, etc. etc. Without tennis, what would they be famous for???
Perhaps "less" famous, but not forgotten. Their reputation is secured. They have enough grand-slams and dominated enough that they will always find an audience.
I would not hesitate to bet, no guarrentee they will both be in the Tennis Hall of Fame in the not too distant future.
 

dmastous

Professional
Moose Malloy said:
Some of you hate her so much that you can't assess her objectively.
I don't personally hate either sister, but I don't like how they came on the tour and talked openly about how they will dominate and be 1 & 2 before they'd even won a tournament. They were arrogent, and had a massive chip on their collective shoulder (probably given to them by their father).
I also wish they hadn't wasted so much talent by, once achieving the success, putting tennis on the back burner for so much of their later careers.
 

Bones08

Professional
Moose Malloy said:
Some of you hate her so much that you can't assess her objectively. I hate her game, but the Serena of '02/'03 would blow away everyone today. There hasn't been some amazing improvement in power in athlericism/power in the new WTA players, just Serena getting injured/having surgery in '03, missing 9 months, coming back in bad shape, suffering minor injuries, not putting in the work to get back.

Look at who she owned in '02/'03: davenport, mauresmo, henin, clijsters.
Guess what, these players are still ranked near the top of the rankings. they haven't gotten better, serena has gotten worse.
and check out her stats from '02/'03. she served harder, 1 & 2nd serves by a wide margin over any player today inc. Sharapova. She made far more winners per match than anyone today.

the wta hasn't changed much in the last couple years. when hingis makes the final, maybe some of will realize that.

If that is not the truth, then I have no clue what is. That Serena would kill these players.
 

BjornBorg

Banned
Moose Malloy said:
Some of you hate her so much that you can't assess her objectively. I hate her game, but the Serena of '02/'03 would blow away everyone today. There hasn't been some amazing improvement in power in athlericism/power in the new WTA players, just Serena getting injured/having surgery in '03, missing 9 months, coming back in bad shape, suffering minor injuries, not putting in the work to get back.

Look at who she owned in '02/'03: davenport, mauresmo, henin, clijsters.
Guess what, these players are still ranked near the top of the rankings. they haven't gotten better, serena has gotten worse.
and check out her stats from '02/'03. she served harder, 1 & 2nd serves by a wide margin over any player today inc. Sharapova. She made far more winners per match than anyone today.

the wta hasn't changed much in the last couple years. when hingis makes the final, maybe some of will realize that.




Dude, she wasn't blowing anyone away. You so overstate it. She won a lot of very close matches --rmember her 6-4 in the third set win over Capriati?
Serena of '02 and '03 would be very tough--but Clijsters is better and more experienced now--as is Sharapova--as is Henin (when healthy). And several other young ladies would be playing Serena of '02 and '03 virtually even. Regarding Davenport, Serena won some very, very close matches against Lindsay--some of which Lindsay choked in--which Lindsay does in slams.

Serena of '02 and '03 was very, very overpowering--BUT THE SLOPPY ERRORS WERE STILL THERE DUDE. THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN THERE!!!!!!! You are overrating her ability. She got on a nice role there and was using her power and mental toughness to win matches. But she wasn't blowing top players away. And those ladies are better and older and more experienced now. Serena at her very best loses in straight sets to Graf, Martina, Seles and Evert in their primes. That's the fact. Too much consistency for Serena. Too much game and too much mental toughness to match Serena's.
 

devila

Banned
The Williams had success playing slow players or physically weaker competition, but recently, physically powerful, and better volleyers became successful.

1) Those folks who are good enough to make the pros start playing tennis at a very young age. At the tender age they start playing tennis, they are not strong enough to wield a one handed back hand. Serve and volley needs a one handed back hand at big moments. When you approach the net, you need to be able to cover a large section of the net. A two handed player loses a few inches on the back hand side because both hands have to be on the racquet and one of them has to cross the body. At the pro level it is very hard to give up those few inches and still hit winning volleys.

2) The big serve has been beaten to death for all the "bad" things it has done to tennis. One of the casualties of the big serve is serve and volley. To make an effective volley, you have to get to or preferably in front of the service line. When you serve a very fast serve, and if the opponent gets the serve back, you have very little time to get into position. If the opponent doesn't get the serve back or returns it weakly, you don't have to be a super player to win the point.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Pancho said:
Also, williams's sisters racquets - ncode 3 and ncode 4 have little control and are meant for beginners and intermediates. I think they need heavier/better racquets. I have tried the ncode 3, 4 and 1 and I think it is way too light and I get so many errors (goes long) just like the Williams sisters hit it.

The williams sisters need get out of theit hollywood glamour circle and start practising!

I thought of that several times watching them play last week. Even if they are using pjs, the racquets are still big and powerful and IMO, cause of several balls going out. At least increase the tension by a couple of pounds!
 

iscottius

Professional
8PAQ said:
Conclusion: Serena is out of Top 3 forever no matter how much she trains because the young guns like Sharapova, Vaidisova and Ivanovic will take over.

Don't under estimate Serena's Competetiveness. She needs to get back in shape, but if she does she is more physically gifted than all the players on the wta and has a great toughness. In addition, I am not that impressed witrh the rest of the WTA players. Letting Lindsay and Mary compete for slams, no wonder why Martina is back. The wta is very inconsistent, the young players need to step up.
 
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