Winning ugly

[monkeyisland90]

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

 

[pc1]

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

I don't think you crossed the line by pushing the ball back. That's the name of the game, isn't it, to get the ball back. If he can't handle it, well that's his tough luck.

You normally don't play that way anyway so the next time you play you can go back to your normally style. Frankly if I was your opponent, I would want you to do whatever you can to win outside of cheating of course. I would feel insulted otherwise.

 

[monkeyisland90]

I don't think you crossed the line by pushing the ball back. That's the name of the game, isn't it, to get the ball back. If he can't handle it, well that's his tough luck.

You normally don't play that way anyway so the next time you play you can go back to your normally style. Frankly if I was your opponent, I would want you to do whatever you can to win outside of cheating of course. I would feel insulted otherwise.

That's a good point.. I think people who play this game more... they realize thats nature of the game is to get ball back but theres also handful of players who have been playing this game that still has a sour attitude towards this style of play ... guess i'll just have to keep moving on,...

 

[JavierLW]

That's a good point.. I think people who play this game more... they realize thats nature of the game is to get ball back but theres also handful of players who have been playing this game that still has a sour attitude towards this style of play ... guess i'll just have to keep moving on,...

The people that have a sour attitude just have a bad attitude in general.

They are probably not worth your time or effort to try to "impress" them, so go ahead and win if you can.

However playing pushing / garbage ball style tennis is actually not all that simple anyway, it's not like you do it and you magically win. Sometimes it's even outright risky if it's used too much. (just as risky if not more then just going for your best shots all the time)

 

[struggle]

lots, but not all, of those who hate pushers have no strategy at all, IMO.

every strategy has its' day.

 

[JavierLW]

lots, but not all, of those who hate pushers have no strategy at all, IMO.

every strategy has its' day.

I think you're right. Just because someone is trying to hit the ball hard doesn't mean their technique isnt any more ugly then someone who we call a "pusher".

I call them "hackers". People with poor technique who just try to hit the ball hard at all costs, and then they fall apart if they are not given pace because they can not provide their own. (probably because they are using too much arm, they are trying to hit flat, or whatever.....)

 

[Commando Tennis Shorts]

Pushing is quite effective at the 3.5 level and below, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

However, pushing just won't cut it in 4.0 or above. You will never become a 4.0 player by pushing (and if you do, there's something wrong with the ratings system in your area).

Instead, I've seen several open players in my area who are quite successful as junkballers---like pushing, except with a clear strategy and varying speeds and spins. If you enjoy winning ugly, this style of play is for you

(think Fabrice Santoro)

 

[Commando Tennis Shorts]

BTW, easiest way to beat a pusher:

1) NEVER push back

2) Bring them in to the net.

 

[Mick]

BTW, easiest way to beat a pusher:

1) NEVER push back

2) Bring them in to the net.

3) don't make more unforced errors than winners

 

[PushyPushster]

Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ...

There are sore losers everywhere. I had this same thing happen in a league match - the guy claimed merely playing me had lowered his overall game. I arched an eyebrow and looked at the soreboard. Wasn't willing to fight with him, but I hope the look conveyed the following: "Yes, I do have a 30mph serve. Yes, my forehand is travelling over the net at the speed of smell. And yes, I do suck. But guess what? The scoreboard says you suck even more."

Btw, I've got to ask - what exactly did he say? It's funny to me when the loser of a match is ballsy enough to complain about the manner in which they've been beaten.

You will never become a 4.0 player by pushing (and if you do, there's something wrong with the ratings system in your area).

I'm 4.0 as of The Great Bump. It's a brave new world.

 

[monkeyisland90]

you quoted
Originally Posted by Commando
You will never become a 4.0 player by pushing (and if you do, there's something wrong with the ratings system in your area).


I've seen lot of pushers who are beating 4.5 and 4.0 players (i don't know there rating is but some of the 4.5 player quotes in there home page is ... "learning to defeat pushers!" I was thinking to myself that pushing style gets you pretty far in tennis with minimum effort (less physical and mental).. I can hit deep with direction and relax for long time.. but my ego really can't stand it as it seems like a cheap way to play so i guess there is something wrong with the ntrp system but theres alwyas loopholes in life so pushing your way to top is kind of like someone who knows how to "work the system".

 

[OrangePower]

you quoted
Originally Posted by Commando
You will never become a 4.0 player by pushing (and if you do, there's something wrong with the ratings system in your area).


I've seen lot of pushers who are beating 4.5 and 4.0 players (i don't know there rating is but some of the 4.5 player quotes in there home page is ... "learning to defeat pushers!" I was thinking to myself that pushing style gets you pretty far in tennis with minimum effort (less physical and mental).. I can hit deep with direction and relax for long time.. but my ego really can't stand it as it seems like a cheap way to play so i guess there is something wrong with the ntrp system but theres alwyas loopholes in life so pushing your way to top is kind of like someone who knows how to "work the system".

Ok, so I actually like playing pushers because I know they have no weapons that can hurt me and I can dictate the match on my terms. But give pushers some respect. When you say pushing is easy and requires minimum effort - you're just wrong. Winning with pusher style at 4.0+ requires great physical fitness as the pusher will be doing *a lot* of running and retrieving. And it requires mental patience and discipline as well, which is not easy. So you might not the way pushers play, but give credit where it's due.

 

[monkeyisland90]

Ok, so I actually like playing pushers because I know they have no weapons that can hurt me and I can dictate the match on my terms. But give pushers some respect. When you say pushing is easy and requires minimum effort - you're just wrong. Winning with pusher style at 4.0+ requires great physical fitness as the pusher will be doing *a lot* of running and retrieving. And it requires mental patience and discipline as well, which is not easy. So you might not the way pushers play, but give credit where it's due.

Actually it is easy because I'm a grinder counterpuncher so getting to the ball and hitting deep is easy but my ego tells me to stop which is why i goof.. but if i was desperate and winning was that important then it is easy. I give credit to pushers in terms of there mental toughness but that's about it..

 

[pc1]

Actually it is easy because I'm a grinder counterpuncher so getting to the ball and hitting deep is easy but my ego tells me to stop which is why i goof.. but if i was desperate and winning was that important then it is easy. I give credit to pushers in terms of there mental toughness but that's about it..

Like Orangepower wrote, in general you would tend to think of a pusher as a player who can ONLY hit the ball back with little pace but can't volley and cannot hurt you. As you wrote, your game is more than that.

Everyone who plays tennis at times is a pusher. You can't drive every shot with tremendous force so sometimes you resort to just pushing the ball back. There have been some great players in the past who may have fit the definition of a pusher, Bitsy Grant in the 1930's and later, Bobby Riggs, who was a former World Champion before he played Billie Jean King, Harold Solomon who on clay would drive other players crazy with his ability to push the ball back.

If just pushing the ball back is the best way to win, I think most of us would do that.

Hey Arthur Ashe beat Jimmy Connors at Wimbledon in 1975 by using a lot of junk and isn't that in some ways the definition of a pusher in tennis? Of course Arthur had the power too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcLBve-fZhE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMF1eP_yB2Y&feature=related

 

[tennis tom]

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

Of course I wouldn't but others may:

"It's 3-4 in the last set, and I'm going to hack and grub", I told myself. "Just do anything to get the ball over the net. It doesn't matter how you look. Form won't win this one."

You learn to hack, as we call it, when you join the pros. Get balls back, and the hell with trying to slap a winning shot that doesn't have too much chance. It looks great if you make it, but at this stage you can't give away points.

A big shot may look lovely, but anything that now goes over the net looks lovely. You still win matches by getting the ball over the net one more time than your opponent.

You face up to that when you leave the amateurs. You settle down. You can slam away when your opponent isn't too sound, or you clearly dominate him, but it was Tony Roche in the decisive set, and it was no time for pride and flamboyance. I was going to scratch and dig and bloop the ball over any way I could.

Rod Laver, "THE EDUCATION OF A TENNIS PLAYER", page 50, 2009 edition.

 

[JoelDali]

Of course I wouldn't but others may:

"It's 3-4 in the last set, and I'm going to hack and grub", I told myself. "Just do anything to get the ball over the net. It doesn't matter how you look. Form won't win this one."

You learn to hack, as we call it, when you join the pros. Get balls back, and the hell with trying to slap a winning shot that doesn't have too much chance. It looks great if you make it, but at this stage you can't give away points.

A big shot may look lovely, but anything that now goes over the net looks lovely. You still win matches by getting the ball over the net one more time than your opponent.

You face up to that when you leave the amateurs. You settle down. You can slam away when your opponent isn't too sound, or you clearly dominate him, but it was Tony Roche in the decisive set, and it was no time for pride and flamboyance. I was going to scratch and dig and bloop the ball over any way I could.

Rod Laver, "THE EDUCATION OF A TENNIS PLAYER", page 50, 2009 edition.

Watch the Lendl VS Borg French final for a great example of this.

 

[dcdoorknob]

3) don't make more unforced errors than winners

This is so true. Sounds so easy, and yet for some of us it can be such a hard thing to accomplish.* That's the power of the pusher in a nutshell.

*By us, of course, I don't mean myself or any of you fine players on here. We are all superstars who would never have any problem hitting winner after winner against a pusher. Especially not me. I'm infallible on the court as far as any of you know. What I meant by us was, you know, those other poor souls out there who aren't so gifted or disciplened as we.

 

[PushyPushster]

When you say pushing is easy and requires minimum effort - you're just wrong. Winning with pusher style at 4.0+ requires great physical fitness as the pusher will be doing *a lot* of running and retrieving.

What he said.

 

[chatt_town]

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

Let me tell you something. I've been accused of the same thing. I think people forget the object of the game which is "get the ball back over the net". I haven't read anywhere where it said you had to drive backhands up the line or hit aces galore to be considered the greatest of all time. I love the big servers. It looks good when you are playing people that can't return. I take pride in spinning the first serve in(as my serve is very average at best on a good day) and returning the "Roddic" wannabes serves. It really chaps their @$$ but what I've learned is this. People with huge serves many times can't hit more than 3 ground strokes. So I play to just get the ball back mostly in the middle of the court and take chances only when I'm up if the match up calls for that. People that won't kill themselves I'm a little more offensive and people that I pretty much know that are way better than me I'm all offense. One of my favorite matches of all time was one where I played a guy in the playoffs and he served up get this 18 aces in two sets and lost 1 and 2. He'd serve ace after ace after ace on the duece side of the court but couldn't get it done on the ad side. I'd block it back short and he'd hit it in the net. We'd do that til he missed on the duece side. I was told he was telling everyone that I was just getting the ball back and I told them he was right and asked what was I supposed to do. So screw what they are saying. Keep kicking their butts and giving them slow death.

 

[chatt_town]

I think you're right. Just because someone is trying to hit the ball hard doesn't mean their technique isnt any more ugly then someone who we call a "pusher".

I call them "hackers". People with poor technique who just try to hit the ball hard at all costs, and then they fall apart if they are not given pace because they can not provide their own. (probably because they are using too much arm, they are trying to hit flat, or whatever.....)

That's a good point and I liking it to the Baseball. I never saw a pitcher yell in and ask Barry Bonds what kind of pitch he wanted before pitching. They throw everything they think you can't hit so why should this sport be any different. Quarterbacks threw away from Deon Sanders and basketball teams with great big men threw the ball down low. You didn't see 5'4 inch guards hailing up balls from 25 feet with two 7 footers in the lane. What makes these fools think you are supposed to feed them pace because that's what they want to hit. That's one of the dumbest things(I have to play with pace) I've heard in Tennis.

 

[chatt_town]

Of course I wouldn't but others may:

"It's 3-4 in the last set, and I'm going to hack and grub", I told myself. "Just do anything to get the ball over the net. It doesn't matter how you look. Form won't win this one."

You learn to hack, as we call it, when you join the pros. Get balls back, and the hell with trying to slap a winning shot that doesn't have too much chance. It looks great if you make it, but at this stage you can't give away points.

A big shot may look lovely, but anything that now goes over the net looks lovely. You still win matches by getting the ball over the net one more time than your opponent.

You face up to that when you leave the amateurs. You settle down. You can slam away when your opponent isn't too sound, or you clearly dominate him, but it was Tony Roche in the decisive set, and it was no time for pride and flamboyance. I was going to scratch and dig and bloop the ball over any way I could.

Rod Laver, "THE EDUCATION OF A TENNIS PLAYER", page 50, 2009 edition.

Fed to me is the greatest of all time but has anyone ever really paid attention to what he does at times. I've seen him push more balls back into play when someone else is serving. He moves better than most but I swear I've seen him just slice so many returns back and then go to work off the ground and to me that's how he wins. He makes sure he gets back as many returns as possible and many barely go pass the service box.

 

[PushyPushster]

People with huge serves many times can't hit more than 3 ground strokes. So I play to just get the ball back mostly in the middle of the court

Yeah, I'm not sure why this is considered a more legitimate or "pretty" style of tennis. The guy who serves Big Heat but can't play an actual point if the ball gets returned.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

Well the way I look at it, I never deliberately try to push or dink balls. But there's no way you can follow through on every ball you hit, watch any pro match and you'll see they don't even do that.

But I've played some players that seemingly play the whole match as pushers. It's a little frustrating, but hey if I can't beat a pusher, that's on me, not them them using cheap tactics or however you want to spin it. I'm never really thrilled with a loss, but I can't say I'd blame it on my opponent being a pusher. I look at it like a challenge, like okay how do I beat this guy with out stooping to his level.

 

[JediMindTrick]

I give credit to pushers in terms of there mental toughness but that's about it..

You sound more like the guy who lost to a pusher, instead of the pusher himself. Do you have something to confess?

 

[pc1]

I have a question for all of you, assuming the level of play was good either way, would you rather win ugly or lose beautifully?

Another question, how do you guys define pushing the ball? I've seen some great players push the ball back with soft slices but they have won by drop shotting, lobbing, some passing shots and the consistent game. Is that considered pushing? I kind of like watching that type of touch play.

 

[Ronaldo]

Win, by any means necessary, even if it is plan Z from Planet X, just get the ball back. It's a hard knock life, just win, baby.

 

[tennis tom]

A Win's A Win !

 

[PushyPushster]

I'd rather have an ugly win than a pretty loss any day. My definition of a pusher is someone who wins more than 90% of his points off an opponent's Unforced Errors.

 

[heninfan99]

No offense but you're talking out yer ***. A real pusher would never post this statement you made.

So i've had wins under the category "winning ugly" on more then I wanted and although I got the job done.. it really was ugly... everything feeling stiff, pushing shots like a granny, and having no strategy other the get the ball back. Pretty much being cheap. Opponent obviously is very upset and verbally attacks this style ... Although I don't let it bother me... after match is over and drive off.. i get this sunken feeling that I really don't enjoy playing like this and feel bad that i was playing cheap against someone I know or don't know.. And I always wonder if I will be able to play them again (either they will for rematch or not because they see me as cheap)

This pushing style of play usually is my last resort when my shots aren't not feeling it or the opponent is playing such great defense that I need to throw there rythm off.

Anyone here will do whatever it takes to get the job done? or theres a threshold that you won't cross (like pushing the ball)..

 

[West Coast Ace]

Fed...I've seen him push more balls back into play when someone else is serving....

You don't know what pushing is. Slicing a serve back is not pushing. It means either you didn't have time to make any turn and produce a drive swing or you guessed wrong on which side the serve was coming to.

I have a question for all of you, assuming the level of play was good either way, would you rather win ugly or lose beautifully?

If you mean play your best and lose then that's my vote.

Another question, how do you guys define pushing the ball? I've seen some great players push the ball back with soft slices but they have won by drop shotting, lobbing, some passing shots and the consistent game. Is that considered pushing? I kind of like watching that type of touch play.

Only if that's all they do. Fed - see above - and all smart players employ those plays occasionally to throw off their opponent. Pushing is using those devices exclusively. A pusher does not go for a winner (unless his opponent falls down) with a FH or BH drive or come to the net to try to win with a volley. Hitting a few groundstrokes at ~70% to get your feel back after missing a lot of shots isn't pushing.

 

[jc4.0]

Well I could never play that way, because I'm always trying to improve my game. I prefer to lose playing my best than win by pushing the ball or hitting weird junky shots. Winning is good, but can only be enjoyed in my world if you played well, and hit strong shots. This gets into a psychological area where winning is too important and is somehow tied to your self-esteem.

 

[Ronaldo]

Win if u can, lose if u must, but always push, push, push. In fact, push it real good.

 

[jc4.0]

Winning should be pretty

I know that for some people, winning is everything in tennis. To me, a win isn't just a score. If I play well and aggressively, if I'm satisfied with the way I played in the match, then I win - that's all that matters. I don't want to win by throwing junk balls. My pet peeve is a player who can't beat me by any other means, so they toss up a thousand lobs in a row until I get so frustrated with the slow pace that I really don't care whether I win or lose, I just want off the court. I wish everyone would just play their best, go for smart, good shots as much as they can; and play with some variety. I think from your post that at some level you agree with me - winning ugly, winning by dumbing down your own game, isn't worth it unless you're a pro and there's money on the line!

 

[jmnk]

I know that for some people, winning is everything in tennis. To me, a win isn't just a score. If I play well and aggressively, if I'm satisfied with the way I played in the match, then I win - that's all that matters. I don't want to win by throwing junk balls. My pet peeve is a player who can't beat me by any other means, so they toss up a thousand lobs in a row until I get so frustrated with the slow pace that I really don't care whether I win or lose, I just want off the court. I wish everyone would just play their best, go for smart, good shots as much as they can; and play with some variety. I think from your post that at some level you agree with me - winning ugly, winning by dumbing down your own game, isn't worth it unless you're a pro and there's money on the line!

see, but the 'pushers' do exactly just that. They do go for smart, good shots - apparently a lob is exactly that shot against you, so why wouldn't they use it? Also, saying 'a player who can't beat me by any other means [but feeding me slow high balls]' is just nonsense. What do you mean by 'other means'? What other means does he need besides those that bring him a win?

 

[nickarnold2000]

I know that for some people, winning is everything in tennis. To me, a win isn't just a score. If I play well and aggressively, if I'm satisfied with the way I played in the match, then I win - that's all that matters. I don't want to win by throwing junk balls. My pet peeve is a player who can't beat me by any other means, so they toss up a thousand lobs in a row until I get so frustrated with the slow pace that I really don't care whether I win or lose, I just want off the court. I wish everyone would just play their best, go for smart, good shots as much as they can; and play with some variety. I think from your post that at some level you agree with me - winning ugly, winning by dumbing down your own game, isn't worth it unless you're a pro and there's money on the line!

Or maybe you should improve your overhead.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I know that for some people, winning is everything in tennis. To me, a win isn't just a score. If I play well and aggressively, if I'm satisfied with the way I played in the match, then I win - that's all that matters. I don't want to win by throwing junk balls. My pet peeve is a player who can't beat me by any other means, so they toss up a thousand lobs in a row until I get so frustrated with the slow pace that I really don't care whether I win or lose, I just want off the court. I wish everyone would just play their best, go for smart, good shots as much as they can; and play with some variety. I think from your post that at some level you agree with me - winning ugly, winning by dumbing down your own game, isn't worth it unless you're a pro and there's money on the line!

Exactly! Like would a baseball pitcher throw lots of change-ups and curves if he knew the batter wasn't good at them? Would a football team run alot just because the opposing team can't stop the run, or pass against one that can't stop the pass? Um, never mind,...actually they would.

 

[tennis tom]

Or maybe you should improve your overhead.

GOOD ONE!

Tennis is a competition, you keep score.
Ballet is a performance, you applaud the pretty moves.