Would Nadal have tied or broken Federer's slam record without Djokovic 2.0

Would Nadal have tied or broken Federer's slam record without Djokovic of 2011-2012

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
R

rosewallGOAT

Banned
It looks unlikely now Nadal will break or even tie Federer's slam record. It isnt totally impossible but I would give him only 20% to tie and 15% to break at this point. However do you think had the 2011-early 2012 Djokovic not emerged he would have done it. He lost to Djokovic in 3 slam finals. Had Djokovic not been there he would have had to beat Federer or Murray in all 3 finals, but given that during this stretch he beat Murray in 3 of those 4 slam semis (Federer in the 4th), and he hasnt lost to Federer in a slam since 2007, the likelihood is he would have won all 3 of those and been sitting on atleast 14 majors right now. At most 13 if we give Federer or Murray an upset in 1 of those 3. There is also the chance Nadal would not have pushed himself so hard to finally overcome the new and improved Djokovic and not droven himself to the point of injury by mid 2012, and maybe even had more than 14 majors right now.

So in conclusion do you think Nadal would have ended up eventually broken Federer's slam record without the emergence of the new and improved Djokovic, especialy the beast one of 2011-early 2012.
 
R

rosewallGOAT

Banned
Sitting on even 13 he would be looking great to atleast tie it now IMO. Anything more than 13 and he would be looking great to break it at this point. Sitting at only 11 he doesnt look so good to even tie it, and will be difficult to tie or pass.
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
Federer would have probably won AO 2011 without Djokovic 2.0, he also had a chance at the USO that year. I also think at the AO 2012 Murray may have had a chance if he played like he did in the semi in the final(lol). So I think Nadal would have possibly been on 13 majors but Federer may be on 18 himself so there's no much difference.
 
R

rosewallGOAT

Banned
NatF said:
Federer would have probably won AO 2011 without Djokovic 2.0, he also had a chance at the USO that year. I also think at the AO 2012 Murray may have had a chance if he played like he did in the semi in the final(lol). So I think Nadal would have possibly been on 13 majors but Federer may be on 18 himself so there's no much difference.
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Good point, I had not thought about the 2011 Australian. I dont think Murray would have beaten Nadal at the 2012 Australian Open though coming off 3 straight losses to Nadal in slams. Also considering the final was equally close or closer when Djokovic is a far worse matchup for Nadal than he is for Murray, indicates Nadal was playing even better than Muray at that event.

So I would say Federer maybe on 18 and Nadal probably on 14 which would still give him a good shot. Unless Nadal also didnt push himself to injury in which case he might have had a good shot at U.S Open 2012 given that nobody was playing great there.
 
Bender

Bender

G.O.A.T.
  1. Wimbledon - pretty sure he would've won it; hell he should've won it vs Djokovic too tbh. I remember his groundstrokes, especially his backhand was rather off in the final, but he served very well
  2. USO - would've been vs Federer; given Federer's record v Nadal at the slams, I think Nadal could've narrowly won this one, taking into account the fact that the surface would've suited Federer more than it would've suited Nadal
  3. AO - Murray has a good shot, but Nadal also played very well against almost-peak/peak Djokovic and almost beat him
  4. IW, Miami, Madrid, Rome may well all have been Nadal's had Djokovic not showed up at those finals (I really wish he won Miami)

I'm pretty sure we would've won at least two of the three slam finals he lost, so he'd be sitting with 13 slams, 14 at most. Don't know where or how it's possible for Nadal to equalise and be poised to surpass Federer.

As for Federer, I think Djokovic may well have still beaten Federer even in v1.0, provided the USO 2010 or AO 2008 version of Djokovic showed up. The surface favouring Djokovic over Federer is probably why I feel that way.

Maybe people are taking into account the wear and tear Nadal would've avoided had he not met the Serbinator?
 
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V

VPhuc tennis fan

Professional
rosewallGOAT said:
Good point, I had not thought about the 2011 Australian. I dont think Murray would have beaten Nadal at the 2012 Australian Open though coming off 3 straight losses to Nadal in slams. Also considering the final was equally close or closer when Djokovic is a far worse matchup for Nadal than he is for Murray, indicates Nadal was playing even better than Muray at that event.

So I would say Federer maybe on 18 and Nadal probably on 14 which would still give him a good shot. Unless Nadal also didnt push himself to injury in which case he might have had a good shot at U.S Open 2012 given that nobody was playing great there.
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The 2011 year that Djoker had certainly put a big stop or slowed down a lot Rafa's quest of GS titles. Other factors should also be considered: 1) Djoker now relishes to be #1 and certainly doesn't want to yield any ground to anyone in particular GS titles, 2) Emergence of Murray, it's still a work in progress IMO, but Murray seems to mature more and will certainly take on the challenge, and finally, the state of Rafa's knees. All combined together push me think that Rafa has AT BEST a slim chance to equal Fed's GS titles, and almost NONE to break it.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
no, federer would've won AO 2011 without djokovic and would have a pretty good shot in USO 2011 as well considering he was in better form than nadal was. murray would also have a pretty good shot at AO 2012.
 
Z

zam88

Professional
I would give 2012 AO, 2011 Wimbledon to Nadal for certain without Djoker 2.0.

I give 2011 AO to Federer

So then it comes down to how i feel 2011 USO would've gone down..

That is one match I really wanted to see... in 2010 I think Rafa was playing unreal at the USO and probably would've beaten Federer.. but in '11 Roger was really playing well at that tournament and I think would've had an excellent shot at Nadal.

So it's either 19-13 or 18-14.. that's the impact if you subtract djoker 2.0.

So either no difference than the 6 slam difference now.. or possibly 2 slams closer.

Really depends on how you see Fedal 2011 USO would've gone.

It's probably the #1 match that didn't happen that i wanted to see... and it was SOOO close to happening.

of course.. maybe as a fed fan the God's blessed me by not making it happen because fed would've lost, nadal is one major closer and rafa then beats him in all 4 major finals.. which blows.
 
W

wy2sl0

Hall of Fame
Fed takes USO 10 and 11. Nadals change in style at the US Open in 2010 plays exactly into Feds wheelhouse. Furthermore Fed wouldn't have gone five probably in the semi's and probably would have taken Rafa the next year. Nadal would definitely have one more Wimbledon and Australian.
 
P

papertank

Hall of Fame
Nadal would have definitely picked up Wimbledon 2011 and AO 2013, about a 50/50 chance of getting that USO 2011. Nadal would definitely be a threat to Fed at this point.
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
The_Order said:
LOL Fed is Rafa's b*tch in majors especially since the courts were slower in USO2011, Rafa would've won in 4 sets as usual.

And Murray would've lost AO12 as well, first of all he has a history of playing bad in AO finals and second of all, Nadal normally whips Murray's arse too in the majors.

The way you word things is rubbish. If you think Fed or Murray would've won, just say they would've won, don't say crap like pretty good shot LOL you're saying that a top 4 player would have a pretty good shot at winning a HC major against Rafa well duh, obviously they would have a pretty good shot. The facts remain that Rafa has not lost to Federer in a major for 6 years and he beat Murray in every major in 2011 bar the AO where they didn't play and had they played, Rafa would've beat him there too.

Nadal pushed Novak to the limit in that AO12 final, further than Fed ever has at AO since it went plexicushion, and you want to imply that Murray (who plays a similar style to Novak but is a FAR bigger head case) would've won? LOL. Just more defensive ******* crap from you as usual hahahahahaha....
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murray pushed novak even further than nadal did at that AO. he was no headcase in that semi or the wimbledon final that year or at the USO final that year. even this year's final, his problem was blisters , not being a 'headcase'.

anyways novak should've closed out the final in 4 sets . He missed a sitter FH at the net at 5-3 in the 4th set breaker, if he'd made that he'd have 3 MPs and would've closed it out.

regarding USO 2011, given rafa was struggling to win a set vs djokovic and djokovic struggled to beat federer, its obvious federer's form was clearly better, that makes up for quite a bit of the mental edge that rafa had.

My choice of words is not rubbish at all. you are just clueless enough not to get reality. I don't think its too much in favour of any player, that's why I said what I did.

If you asked me, who'd win b/w federer of USO 2004 final and nadal of US 2010 final , for instance, I'd straight away say that federer would win .
 
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winstonplum

winstonplum

Hall of Fame
Who knows? But he'd be sitting at 14 right now instead of 11. But then again, Fed would be probably sitting at about 25 without Rafa.
 
Gonzo_style

Gonzo_style

Hall of Fame
I see that you guys gave AO 2011 to Federer and Wimbledon 2011 to Nadal.

I think Tomas Berdych and Jo Wilfried Tsonga would have some chances...
 
R

rickyvaldez

Banned
Probably would. He would be at 14 slams as he definitely would have won the 3 he lost to Novak. No people Federer and Murray werent beating him at any of those. As for Federer even Djokovic pre 2.0 is good enough to beat Federer at the Australian so it wouldnt help Federer any. 3 away would be enough that with Nadal's hunger and drive he would get it. Who knows though he might still have a shot at the record.
 
R

-RF-

Hall of Fame
The argument just doesn't work.
You can't just take Djokovic out of the equation and assume how many slams Rafa/Rog would win... Yes Djoko helped deny Rafa, but then Fed could have gotten more
 
R

rickyvaldez

Banned
-RF- said:
The argument just doesn't work.
You can't just take Djokovic out of the equation and assume how many slams Rafa/Rog would win... Yes Djoko helped deny Rafa, but then Fed could have gotten more
Click to expand...

Take away the peak version of Djokovic and Federer is playing Nadal for big titles (and a bit of times Murray) and everyone knows who that matchup favors.
 
R

rickyvaldez

Banned
-RF- said:
On the red dust
Click to expand...

One could speculate prime to prime between the two on non clay courts, which we never really see much of so it is purely a guess, but for sure against an old Federer Nadal is favored any place except for indoor courts. Unfortunately for Federer there are no slams on indoor courts.
 
DRII

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Nole 2.0 has far less to do with it than Nadal's 2.0 (out of 10) health of his knees (and feet for that matter)...

Nadal's competitors are extremely fortunate he was born with foot disabilities that eventually wrecked his knees!
 
R

rickyvaldez

Banned
DRII said:
Nole 2.0 has far less to do with it than Nadal's 2.0 (out of 10) health of his knees (and feet for that matter)...

Nadal's competitors are extremely fortunate he was born with foot disabilities that eventually wrecked his knees!
Click to expand...

Maybe if he had a smarter coach he would have less problems. I think he is an underachiever in many ways. He handicapts himself by playing so far behind the baseline, returning so far back, and just generally not taking advantage of his amazing physical talent to play a more domineering style.
 
MichaelNadal

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
He definitely hurt Rafa's chances. That's the way the game is though so it is what it is, but it had to sting a little. Rafa would 2 USO's, 3 Wimbys and 2 Australians and be seen as a much more rounded player. (even though he already is, he'll never get as much credit as he deserves since he didn't win the extra titles).
 
DRII

DRII

G.O.A.T.
rickyvaldez said:
Maybe if he had a smarter coach he would have less problems. I think he is an underachiever in many ways. He handicapts himself by playing so far behind the baseline, returning so far back, and just generally not taking advantage of his amazing physical talent to play a more domineering style.
Click to expand...

i agree to a degree, but he has already achieved so much, your basically calling him the undisputed GOAT (skill wise) by a long ways.

no amount of coaching can overcome birth defects completely.

however, Nadal's magic is in his margin! the fact that his game is so safe yet so effective...
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
DRII said:
Nole 2.0 has far less to do with it than Nadal's 2.0 (out of 10) health of his knees (and feet for that matter)...

Nadal's competitors are extremely fortunate he was born with foot disabilities that eventually wrecked his knees!
Click to expand...

bullsh*t. nadal was perfectly fine from IW 2011 till USO 2011 healthwise. was physically fit in AO 2012 as well.

djoker 2.0 >> peak nadal on HC.

though inferior on clay and grass, he was still able to get in his head and get wins there as well
 
abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
DRII said:
i agree to a degree, but he has already achieved so much, your basically calling him the undisputed GOAT (skill wise) by a long ways.

no amount of coaching can overcome birth defects completely.

however, Nadal's magic is in his margin! the fact that his game is so safe yet so effective...
Click to expand...

@ the bold part , haven't had such a big laugh recently. :lol:
 
smoledman

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
DRII said:
Nole 2.0 has far less to do with it than Nadal's 2.0 (out of 10) health of his knees (and feet for that matter)...

Nadal's competitors are extremely fortunate he was born with foot disabilities that eventually wrecked his knees!
Click to expand...

Sorry but Nole 2.0 wrecked Nadal's knees in 2011 to early 2012. That's a fact that Nad-***** don't want to OWN up to.
 
Feddy Kruegerer

Feddy Kruegerer

Banned
Without Djoker's rise in form, I think Nadal would now have around 14 slams. And I do think he would have broken Fed's record. But it doesn't matter, the discussion is pointless. Things are what they are. Now Rafa will have to wait longer to break Fed's record, if he can even achieve that.
 
M

MTF07

Semi-Pro
Why is this even a discussion topic? Take away Nadal and Federer has well over 20 majors and his record is unbreakable.
 
DRII

DRII

G.O.A.T.
abmk said:
bullsh*t. nadal was perfectly fine from IW 2011 till USO 2011 healthwise. was physically fit in AO 2012 as well.

djoker 2.0 >> peak nadal on HC.

though inferior on clay and grass, he was still able to get in his head and get wins there as well
Click to expand...

guess you missed the 2010 USO final :rolleyes:
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Without Djoko, Nadal would have won 3 slams in 2011 and maybe 2 in 2012, that would mean 14 slam titles now. Yes amazingly, it is safe to say that without Djoko, Nadal would have tied 17 slam titles easily during his career. Then again, not so surprising since he's already way over Fed's count in masters (especially at same age).
 
T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
veroniquem said:
Without Djoko, Nadal would have won 3 slams in 2011 and maybe 2 in 2012, that would mean 14 slam titles now. Yes amazingly, it is safe to say that without Djoko, Nadal would have tied 17 slam titles easily during his career. Then again, not so surprising since he's already way over Fed's count in masters (especially at same age).
Click to expand...

Have you forgotten that without Nole he still has to win 7 straight matches ?
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
veroniquem said:
Without Djoko, Nadal would have won 3 slams in 2011 and maybe 2 in 2012, that would mean 14 slam titles now. Yes amazingly, it is safe to say that without Djoko, Nadal would have tied 17 slam titles easily during his career. Then again, not so surprising since he's already way over Fed's count in masters (especially at same age).
Click to expand...

That's debatable. Federer would have an extra slams without Djokovic too. USO 11 was no guarantee and Federer would have taken the AO in 11 without Djokovic. Maybe Nadal would have reached 17 without Djokovic, but the target could have been 19 ;)
 
M

monfed

Guest
Fed takes AO 2011, Ralph wins Wimby 11. Comes down to USO 2011 and Fed may have beaten Ralph had they met in the final. AO 2012 could have gone to Murray as well since he'd be superconfident going into the final beating the favourite Djokovic in the semis.
 
Feddy Kruegerer

Feddy Kruegerer

Banned
monfed said:
Fed takes AO 2011, Ralph wins Wimby 11. Comes down to USO 2011 and Fed may have beaten Ralph had they met in the final. AO 2012 could have gone to Murray as well since he'd be superconfident going into the final beating the favourite Djokovic in the semis.
Click to expand...
Since he'd be superconfident? What state of mind do you think Nadal is everytime he plays Federer? One more argument for Nadal.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I don't think Fed would have beaten Nadal at USO 2011. I agree with Murray in AO 2012, not that it was likely but that it was possible.
 
M

monfed

Guest
Feddy Kruegerer said:
Since he'd be superconfident? What state of mind do you think Nadal is everytime he plays Federer? One more argument for Nadal.
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In 2012, Djokovic was the man to beat at AO, not Federer. Besides for Ralph,Djokovic has been the more difficult opponent especially on slow HC. Cmon, Wolfy stop clutching on straws now. :lol:
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
veroniquem said:
I don't think Fed would have beaten Nadal at USO 2011. I agree with Murray in AO 2012, not that it was likely but that it was possible.
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Ofcourse you don't. But even a slower USO favours Federer more than any other slam surface against Nadal, he was more in form than Rafa and he also pushed Djokovic much harder. He had a shot.
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Federer takes 2011 AO and 2012 Wimbledon, still. Has a decent chance to beat Nadal in the 2011 US Open final. So that's 2-3 Slams since 2010 which would put him at 18-19 now.

Nadal takes 2011 Wimbledon and a decent chance for 2011 US Open. 2012 AO - 55/45 between him and Murray.

So that's another 2-3 Slams since 2010 which would put him at 13-14 currently.

The only question is - would Nadal still get "injured" after the FO and miss 8 months of tennis if it wasn't for Djokovic who forced him to his maximum in so many matches?
 
F

Ferrerfight

Banned
He for sure would have won the 3 slams he lost to Djokovic. It depends alot on whether Federer would have won the Australian Open of 2011 or not. I think Nadal still has a chance to reach the record even now though, so probably with more help yeah he would have for sure.
 
Fiji

Fiji

Legend
Without Djokovic:

Federer would have won AO 2008 and AO 2011.

Nadal would have won Wimbledon 2011, USO 2011 and AO 2012.

Murray would have won AO 2013.

Federer would have 19 slams and Nadal 14 slams.

I doubt Nadal would end up with 20 slams(to overtake Federer's 19) when all is said and done, plus Federer might win one more slam and end up with 20 slams which would make it even tougher for Nadal to reach 21 slams.

Answer to the op is no.
 
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