Wrist snap on serve

[Silentgunz]

I was wondering are you suppose to snap your wrist on a flat serve ? My tennis couch told me to snap my wrist if im not getting the ball down on my serve or what ever. But my pops said that I could hurt my wrist and arm doing that because I'm using so much power to hit the ball.

 

[herosol]

pete sampras perfect example of a snap.

injuring is possible
just dont make it tooo extreme.
i use a wrist snap as well

 

[The Ripper]

According to Vic Braden and many others, it is not the wrist that should or needs to be "snapped," but rather the pronation and snap of the forearm. Better to have a good knee bend, rotate in sequence the hips and shoulders and let the arm feel like spaghetti (totally relaxed with a relaxed grip) keeping the head up and the tossing arm up. I promise you with a little practice you will be hitting the ball harder than you would believe!

As far as different types of serves, i.e., flat, topspin or sidespin, the mechanics stay basically the same, with changes in the direction the racket face brushes the ball. Getting the ball "down" into the box requires hitting up on the ball so the topspin brings it down, not hitting "down", which usually puts the ball in the net.

 

[tricky]

According to Vic Braden and many others, it is not the wrist that should or needs to be "snapped," but rather the pronation and snap of the forearm.

Like a violent "thumbs down" onto the ball.

 

[YonexDude]

these guys are right. you shouldn't be concentrating on TRYING to snap your wrist, but instead LET it flick the racquet at the ball during your swing. the key to a good wrist snap is keeping your arm as loose as possible. it seems strange, but you can generate serious power by not trying to muscle the ball, but instead just keeping loose and generating racquet head speed with your entire body, not just your arm or wrist. the wrist snap should be because you are pronating your forearm

 

[Bagumbawalla]

YonexDude is correct.

If your service motion is correct, your wrist will accelerate through whe ball with a slight whippy/snappy motion that shoulsdcome as a consequence of proper form/technique and not from consciously trying to "snap the wrist" through the ball.

Go with your father's intuition on this one. Trying to muscle the ball during the serve can cause injuries of various sorts.

Good luck,

B

So, relax through the service motion. Let it be smooth and free-flowing. At the critical contact point (if your timing is good) there will be a brief hesitation in forward momentum that cause the wrist to bend into the ball.

This wrist motion is less than you would expect (possibly a half inch of play)and any attempt to force it or control it only lessens the effect.

 

[Silentgunz]

so its like letting ur arm loose and free and when u hit it the arm should snap right ? not so much of the wrist ?

 

[The Ripper]

Tricky stated it very practically - big "thumbs down" just contacting the ball which is not snapping the wrist down, but more turning the entire forearm with the thumb going down toward the ground (or you might think of it as palm down). That definitely helps to get the proper motion with the forearm and it's easy to remember. Most important though is a relaxed arm and body (nothing tight) and the proper biomechanical chain - legs, hips, torso, shoulder, arm, forearm pronation (thumbs down!). And one small addition, bring the non-dominant hand across the chest just before contact to "stop" the rotation thus snapping the entire body and further increasing racket head speed. Do these things and you will be blasting the ball into the service box!

Good luck!

 

[WildVolley]

A lot of what people call wrist snap is pronation. Watch the best servers in the world (Roddick, Sampras, etc). The racquet head develops massive speed as the hand and wrist pronate through the shot. But recognize that most of this action is a result of proper form and timing, not something they are trying to force using a huge amount of effort.

The movement on the wrist needs to be driven by the body, shoulder and upper arm. If your form is correct, you should naturally pronate through the shot. I see people cause rotator cuff injuries when they try to force a serve when their mechanics and timing is off.

 

[tricky]

so its like letting ur arm loose and free and when u hit it the arm should snap right ? not so much of the wrist ?

You can kinda visualize it like this:

1) When you pull the racquet handle up from the back, imagine that the back fence is close to you. This keeps the arm loose and does a bunch of other stuff for you.

2) When you've reached the top of the swing, make a "thumbs down" motion with your hand into the ball. This is forearm pronation.

 

[GuyClinch]

I still haven't resolved the question though - should you think about this pronation or not? Sometimes I seem to get better results emphasizing it in my mind - but my serve sucks so maybe it should be "natural." Still I have to think that you actually fire those muscles when you serve..so on some level it's sometihng you should be able to control.

Pete

 

[C_Urala]

I always wonder, if the hitting arm can be TOO loose during the serve. Even at the contact with the ball? If yes, then how to control the direction of the serve?

 

[JCo872]

I was wondering are you suppose to snap your wrist on a flat serve ? My tennis couch told me to snap my wrist if im not getting the ball down on my serve or what ever. But my pops said that I could hurt my wrist and arm doing that because I'm using so much power to hit the ball.

Here is what the mechanics of pronation looks like into contact:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/nalbandian_l.php

You can also see an example in the lower right corner of my homepage:
http://www.hi-techtennis.com

Jeff

 

[GuyClinch]

So you think about the pronating part right? At least when your learning the motion?

Pete

 

[JCo872]

So you think about the pronating part right? At least when your learning the motion?

Pete

Absolutely. Proper pronation will not "happen on its own". It has to be learned.

When I teach this to people I start with the overhead. I have them get into the "Big L" position (that I demonstrate in the top link) and then have them turn the forearm and hand and racket into the ball. This piece of the serve is the most important part of the stroke. You can have a great toss, great leg bend, etc, but if it doesn't end in pronation, you are wasting your time.

Pronation is also the core of any throwing motion. There is a video about the Williams sisters that shows them throwing old wood rackets over a high fence. This throwing motion will force you to pronate.

 

[emmanuel]

Very, very interesting.
Does The pronation aply to slice, kick and flat serves? or only for flat serves?
E.

 

[JCo872]

Very, very interesting.
Does The pronation aply to slice, kick and flat serves? or only for flat serves?
E.

Pronation on the slice serve is exactly like pronation on a flat serve. The only difference is that the racket face is at a slight angle on contact, rather than flat on the ball. The racket angle causes the slice - pronation is the same.

The kick serve doesn't work quite the same way. Check out my link on kick serve to see for yourself:

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/develop_kicker.php

Jeff

 

[emmanuel]

Thank you very much, Jeff!
Again, very interesting!
E.

 

[emmanuel]

As I see, the pronation is a esential key for all kind of serves...

 

[emmanuel]

I was watching the James Jensen video again.
He talks about the snap for the serves.
Is he wrong?
Is "old" technique?
Thanks in advance.
E.

 

[JohnYandell]

It's an illusion based on observation of the wrist well after contact in the deceleration phase.

Doesn't happen all the time, but the angle of the wrist can "break" forward from the neutral position on the way down.

The eye doesn't film fast enough to see what is happening around the contact. When you look closely in high speed video you see all the complex movements described above.

 

[The Ripper]

I was watching the Jimmy Connor's "serve" video the other day with John Lloyd teaching, and he said it was important to make a good "wrist snap." I think this is just a misperception of the actual movement, the "snap" being a result of everything else working properly. I think reducing it to the wrist snap could cause injury because it puts so much pressure on a rather delicate part of the body (the wrist). Using a full arm swing with the body behind it gives all the power one needs!

 

[iambt21]

I was wondering are you suppose to snap your wrist on a flat serve ? My tennis couch told me to snap my wrist if im not getting the ball down on my serve or what ever. But my pops said that I could hurt my wrist and arm doing that because I'm using so much power to hit the ball.

you gotta snap... but you gotta use the rest of your body and motion too.. .the snap is part of it ... not all of it.... not snapping is like eating food chewing it and not swallowing.. its not gonna work real welll.

 

[fuzz nation]

I was wondering are you suppose to snap your wrist on a flat serve ? My tennis couch told me to snap my wrist if im not getting the ball down on my serve or what ever. But my pops said that I could hurt my wrist and arm doing that because I'm using so much power to hit the ball.

I almost can't believe that your coach told you that - your dad it right on. Your wrist doesn't contribute to your serving power; it should be almost completely passive. If you need to get your serve down onto the court, try making contact a little further out in front of you where the arc of your serve is pointing more down into the service box than at the back fence. Otherwise, your first serve may just need a little more spin.

I was at a discussion/demo put on by Nick Saviano a couple of months ago and the overall topic was the serve, but he was also covering safe habits to teach developing kids. On the issues of pronation and wrist snap, our final consensus was that they should happen as a result of the basic positioning, timing, and swingpath of a serve. In other words, they happen when you're doing basic things correctly - concentrate on those basic things instead of trying to actively manipulate the relatively weak muscles in your forearm.

Velocity or spin in a serve requires energy that is generated by your legs and your core. The little muscles in your wrist can't compete with those big engines, so remember to use them effectively in the same way as you'd throw a ball... just don't let go of your racquet!

 

[Grizvok]

I feel like the best pro to watch to see one of the best loose arm techniques is Federer. You can really see how loose his arm is throughout the entire motion.

 

[NamRanger]

The wrist snap is a result of a natural serve. It's the last part of the chain of the serve, right before pronation. The arm unfolds, and then as your racquet accelerates foward due to your body weight moving foward and up, your arm is unfolding, then the wrist and racquet follows the arm after.

 

[Tennis_Ace]

It is all about the Pronation - The idea of trying to snap the wrist is not so good.

Check it out.

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/130/Nadal_Serve__Slow_Motion/

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/131/Maria_Sharapova__Serve/

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/153/Alicia_Molik__Slow_Motion_Topspin_Serve/

 

[Grizvok]

It is all about the Pronation - The idea of trying to snap the wrist is not so good.

Check it out.

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/130/Nadal_Serve__Slow_Motion/

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/131/Maria_Sharapova__Serve/

http://www.tennisclip.com/media/153/Alicia_Molik__Slow_Motion_Topspin_Serve/

I agree to an extent. You should never really focus on "snapping your wrist as hard as possible when you are near the ball" however it is a natural motion that results from the acceleration in the final part of your service motion and keeping a loose wrist because fluid motions are better than muscling the ball in play.

 

[Nero_S]

Like a violent "thumbs down" onto the ball.

Tricky, you are the master JEDI. This is the type of advice I've been searching for. I was trying to pronate with my forearm, but now you give me perspective of a sholder pronation, am I right?

Nero

 

[BrianGordon]

for what it is worth

The role of the wrist on the serve is a hotly debated issue. I'll provide what I know.

Through 3-D measurement it is possible to determine with a high degree of accuracy motion of the wrist joint. From this, the contribution to racquet speed from motion of the wrist can be determined. Further, the cause of the motion (active muscle contraction or motion of other segments) can also be calculated. I have done this as have other Tennis Biomechanists. The results of these research studies lead to the following observations from the peer reviewed literature:

1. The motion of the wrist for high level servers is pervasive.

2. It is ulnar deviation through much of the upward swing, transitioning to flexion near contact.

3. Near contact the flexion contributes around 30% (or more) of the speed of the racquet face center.

4. Forearm pronation, on the other hand, appears not to be a major contributor to racquet head speed (between 5 - 10 %) at or near contact.

5. Most of the forearm rotation one sees on video can be traced to upper arm internal rotation which is another major contributor to racquet head speed near contact.

6. The independent forearm pronation acts mainly to position the joints and segments, to include the wrist, hand, and racquet.

The cause of the wrist motion has not been widely reported as far as I know. I have calculated it for many high level players and intend to talk about my findings on an online tennis site this fall. I will also give the information to readers of this forum if people are interested. For now I'll only say that based on what I've read in this thread, I'd keep an open mind as to whether this joint action is active or passive.

I don't really expect or desire to alter the opinion of those passionate about this debate. I've been around tennis long enough to know theories are held close to the heart. I simply want to provide information, that may not be widely known, as another piece of the serving decision puzzle.

 

[WildVolley]

The role of the wrist on the serve is a hotly debated issue. I'll provide what I know.

Through 3-D measurement it is possible to determine with a high degree of accuracy motion of the wrist joint. From this, the contribution to racquet speed from motion of the wrist can be determined. Further, the cause of the motion (active muscle contraction or motion of other segments) can also be calculated. I have done this as have other Tennis Biomechanists. The results of these research studies lead to the following observations from the peer reviewed literature:

1. The motion of the wrist for high level servers is pervasive.

2. It is ulnar deviation through much of the upward swing, transitioning to flexion near contact.

3. Near contact the flexion contributes around 30% (or more) of the speed of the racquet face center.

4. Forearm pronation, on the other hand, appears not to be a major contributor to racquet head speed (between 5 - 10 %) at or near contact.

Very interesting. So those who say to snap the wrist forward in serving are right, if it is contributing 30% of the racquet head speed!

I think this would imply that training very strong forearms would help someone serve harder regardless if the flexion is consciously occurring or is simply a reflex from all the loading on the muscles as the racquet is pulled from behind the back.

Thanks for your information.

 

[JCo872]

Very interesting. So those who say to snap the wrist forward in serving are right, if it is contributing 30% of the racquet head speed!

I think this would imply that training very strong forearms would help someone serve harder regardless if the flexion is consciously occurring or is simply a reflex from all the loading on the muscles as the racquet is pulled from behind the back.

Thanks for your information.

I don't think Brian used the word "snap". Brian, can you define these two terms for us?

"ulnar deviation"
"flexion"

Thanks!

 

[JCo872]

I don't think Brian used the word "snap". Brian, can you define these two terms for us?

"ulnar deviation"
"flexion"

Thanks!

Also, Brian - is "ulnar deviation" used for a flat serve? It looks to me like the left to right movement of the wrist would be used for spin serves.

 

[JCo872]

Let me summarize my questions in one post:

I don't think "snap" refers to what Brian mentions. He uses two terms:

"ulnar deviation": movement of the hand and wrist left to right
"flexion": bringing the wrist forward.

When we think of snap, we think of the wrist coming forward and down towards the forearm. Like when you dribble a basketball, the hand breaks down towards the forearm.

If you look at top servers, however, you don't see the wrist break down on a flat serve. Check out the clip of Johannson on my homepage (scroll all the way down, lower right corner):

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

I definitely see his wrist flex (it comes forward to line up with the forearm), but the wrist doesn't ever move farther forward than being perfectly inline with the forearm. After contact, the wrist and hand and forearm are in line. This, interestingly, is what I see with groundstrokes as well. The wrist "catches up" to the rest of the arm on some balls, but doesn't then break past the arm. If you look on my homepage, check out the Nalbandian wiper clip. You can see how his wrist doesn't break forward of the forearm. That's why the tip of the racket never points towards the net in this clip.

From my experience, this is the big difference between top servers and lower level servers. I see people "snap their wrist" on the serve, the wrist breaks forward towards the forearm, and the shot just isn't very good. All the pro first serves I study show the forearm, hand and wrist in line on and after contact.

So to conclude - I don't think "snap" is a good word - but I think it is fine to say that "wrist flexion" is a contributor to the overall motion (which invovles the entire arm).

I'd be interested to hear Brian's thoughts on the term "snap", and if he sees flexion and deviation as being different from a wrist "snap".

 

[BrianGordon]

Very interesting. So those who say to snap the wrist forward in serving are right, if it is contributing 30% of the racquet head speed!

I think this would imply that training very strong forearms would help someone serve harder regardless if the flexion is consciously occurring or is simply a reflex from all the loading on the muscles as the racquet is pulled from behind the back.

Thanks for your information.

Not necessarily - the core of the debate (for many) is not if it contributes but rather how the contribution is accomplished. Wrist flexion can be accomplished through active "snapping the wrist", or "passively" due to motion of other body segments, or both.

If the former were true, training wrist flexors would be wise (however rate of force production would be more important than strength). If passively was the case, training should focus on other muscle groups as any active muscle contraction would at best not help, and at worst possibly hamper the speed of flexion.

I'm addressing serve mechanics systematically on another site in a series of articles - when I get to contact I will discuss this issue, and at some point later, give this forum my results as to the source of the wrist motion if I determine enough people are interesred.

 

[BrianGordon]

Let me summarize my questions in one post:

I don't think "snap" refers to what Brian mentions. He uses two terms:

"ulnar deviation": movement of the hand and wrist left to right
"flexion": bringing the wrist forward.

When we think of snap, we think of the wrist coming forward and down towards the forearm. Like when you dribble a basketball, the hand breaks down towards the forearm.

If you look at top servers, however, you don't see the wrist break down on a flat serve. Check out the clip of Johannson on my homepage (scroll all the way down, lower right corner):

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

I definitely see his wrist flex (it comes forward to line up with the forearm), but the wrist doesn't ever move farther forward than being perfectly inline with the forearm. After contact, the wrist and hand and forearm are in line. This, interestingly, is what I see with groundstrokes as well. The wrist "catches up" to the rest of the arm on some balls, but doesn't then break past the arm. If you look on my homepage, check out the Nalbandian wiper clip. You can see how his wrist doesn't break forward of the forearm. That's why the tip of the racket never points towards the net in this clip.

From my experience, this is the big difference between top servers and lower level servers. I see people "snap their wrist" on the serve, the wrist breaks forward towards the forearm, and the shot just isn't very good. All the pro first serves I study show the forearm, hand and wrist in line on and after contact.

So to conclude - I don't think "snap" is a good word - but I think it is fine to say that "wrist flexion" is a contributor to the overall motion (which invovles the entire arm).

I'd be interested to hear Brian's thoughts on the term "snap", and if he sees flexion and deviation as being different from a wrist "snap".

"Snap" to me means any muscle driven action of the wrist - conscious or derived (reflex or proprioceptive) neuromuscular activity.

Any wrist motion (flexion, extension, ulnar deviation, or radial deviation) then could result from a "snap".

It could also result from motion of other segments which can cause a force to be applied to the base of the hand and cause it to rotate accordingly.

Ulnar deviation is present on all serve permutations (flat, slice, kick), flexion occurs only on the flat serve given conventional gripping schemes.

The transition from ulnar deviation to flexion as the primary contributing axis of rotation on a flat serve is a function of, and the main task of forearm pronation (forearm rotation independent from upper arm internal rotation).

 

[JCo872]

"Snap" to me means any muscle driven action of the wrist - conscious or derived (reflex or proprioceptive) neuromuscular activity.

Any wrist motion (flexion, extension, ulnar deviation, or radial deviation) then could result from a "snap".

It could also result from motion of other segments which can cause a force to be applied to the base of the hand and cause it to rotate accordingly.

Ulnar deviation is present on all serve permutations (flat, slice, kick), flexion occurs only on the flat serve given conventional gripping schemes.

The transition from ulnar deviation to flexion as the primary contributing axis of rotation on a flat serve is a function of, and the main task of forearm pronation (forearm rotation independent from upper arm internal rotation).

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[predrag]

[snip]
So to conclude - I don't think "snap" is a good word - but I think it is fine to say that "wrist flexion" is a contributor to the overall motion (which invovles the entire arm).
[snip]

Exactly right.
Snap would mean something purposeful.

What BB said it should be educated wrist release.

Regards, Predrag

 

[JesseT]

serve conditioning

Something I don't see mentioned much in serve discussions is conditioning.

For many club players, a full motion serve like you see in the pros is *tiring*. You use a lot of muscles that you haven't used before or don't use a lot. You may practice practice practice to get this right and then run into a brick wall in a match as you're exhausted by the middle of the second set.

A lot of injuries happen not just because of poor technique, but because the muscles get too tired, stop holding joints well and let you hyperextend.

This is one thing I definitely have run in to since getting back into the game. I'm working on my conditioning, but all the muscle memory from when I was 16-20 doesn't mean squat to my 32yo body.

 

[Narcissist]

I've recently been working very hard to get my wrist to come through properly on serve. You will know when you have done it right because the ball absolutely flies off the strings

 

[tricky]

I was trying to pronate with my forearm, but now you give me perspective of a sholder pronation, am I right?

Pretty much. It works in all throwing motions. That's why I keep bringing up the thumb in that Federer backswing thread.

Thumbs down = pronation
Thumbs up = supination

Technically, your shoulder doesn't pronate, but your arm muscles work together in order to smoothly rotate the forearm. Thumbing down the ball is really the serve equivalent of really hitting through a ball (i.e. rotating shoulder) with your FH.

So, for example, using Gordon's example, when you do the massive thumbs-down:

1) Ulnar deviation or wrist adduction will continue through contact. That is, you continue "thumbing down" through the ball.

2) Your arm will continue to rotate internally. Wrist flexion seem to cause inhibition of internal rotation. When you transition from adduction toward flexion, it's like applying a brake to your arm movement. Same can be said if you try to "snap" (really, flex the wrist) in a FH stroke.

3) I think Roddick prestretches his wrist adductors by "unrolling" his wrist when he pulls on the racquet. He kinda pronates his forearm a little before at the beginning of his takeback.

 

[ipodtennispro]

Wrist snap on serve?

The role of the wrist on the serve is a hotly debated issue. I'll provide what I know.

Through 3-D measurement it is possible to determine with a high degree of accuracy motion of the wrist joint. From this, the contribution to racquet speed from motion of the wrist can be determined. Further, the cause of the motion (active muscle contraction or motion of other segments) can also be calculated. I have done this as have other Tennis Biomechanists. The results of these research studies lead to the following observations from the peer reviewed literature:

Brian,

Thanks for sharing this information. I have made a print out for my
records. I look forward to your future posts.

Your comments about the convictions of many of the people
on these threads is also interesting. It's like the war in Iraq, they
have already made their mind up. And as you say, you must keep an open
mind.

I am not an expert so I have taken the ‘wrist snap’ (and a a few others) arguments to our physics teachers and I they said, "EVERTHING is PROPORTIONAL!” Our physics teachers will challenge anyone on the importance of the backswing/follow-through as it relates to the contact point. For anyone to say that, "What happens after the
ball leaves the strings doesn't matter" is a fool. It has EVERYTHING
to do with what the ball does and where the shot is going. As it was
explained to me, (one of our physics teachers works with high speed
photography) "one second is an eternity when watching slow motion". But in the end, it is all proportional.

Therefore, there is manipulation of the release point at contact, just like a baseball pitcher. How much? I don't know. We need more research.

Thanks for sharing. This helps.

 

[gh65721]

Good stuff, thank you!!

 

[joesixtoe]

Why doesn't anyone just ask a pro how he hits the ball??? There are so many boards and questions of how a pro does this or that. How do the pro's learn to hit the ball?? Someone besides them must know the answeres!!!! But who could it be?? We all must rise up and find these people!!! My knee hurts so I can't go anywhere. Let me know when you find em.