Wrist snap in Kick/Slice serve?

[vamos_rafa0113]

Hay guys,

We all know that in a good serve, no matter it's a flat or a spin, the wrist will pronate automatically. The "wrist snap" is just a fact that adding more racket head speed during pronation. This tip works pretty well on a flat serve but the same story in a spin serve?

In my service motion, I personally love to swing my racket as a whip which my entire upper body through wrist is totally relaxed and that allows me to produce both great feel and racket head speed.

But is it a good idea to introduce wrist snap motion into kick/slice serve?
Anybody have experienced this before? What kind of results you get?
Or please share your thoughts with me.
(IMO I think the wrist snap will "interrupt" the whipping motion during the swing. Kinda like breaking the energy chain in the serve and also muscled the forearm a bit due to the snap. If the wrist snap is introduced into the serve correctly, it should be the least contribution of either the speed or power. The majority is still the core muscle and rotational energy.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

What do you mean by "wrist snap"? Wrist flexion?

Do you mean wrist snap at anytime during the service motion, during the follow through, or only before ball impact?

Do you believe that high speed video shows what you mean? When?

Serve type unknown. Leading to impact I would not call anything on this serve a 'wrist snap'. By 'snap' I mean an undefined conversational term for wrist joint motion(s).
https://vimeo.com/65434652

Kick serve -
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Slice serve -
https://vimeo.com/27528347

 

[vamos_rafa0113]

Wrist snap I meant was "pronate consciously" rather than happened itself.
If pronate consciously with the right timing, it's more like using your own power to pronate or you can say "more pronation" and that's why some people will serve faster than they don't. By that I meant snapping when impact.
About the hi-speed vid, I already did watched lots of those but just can't tell whether those who have a great spin serve snapping/pronate consciously/pronates more during impact.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I would say that English usage of 'wrist snap' for tennis is poorly defined. I'd interpret that term to usually mean wrist flexion . I think that wrist flexion before impact is not deliberate or driven by forearm muscles on a high level serve.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481 See Table 2. -

The term 'pronation' is incorrectly used in tennis discussions. Most important for the serve is internal shoulder rotation.

What I do is try to confirm my views with high speed videos.

I don't trust what I or others feel or think that they are doing. How things feel or the muscle forces are not shown in the videos. Positions are shown in the videos much better than in text descriptions.

In the 240 fps high speed videos that I presented to show the wrist positions well, I can't say that I see any evidence of what I would call 'wrist snap' prior to impact. Do you see any evidence of wrist 'snap' in the videos I linked? (There might be an inconsistency with the Biomechanics and Tennis link above for wrist flexion.) Could you link one of the videos that you think might show 'wrist snap' around impact?

Things are moving very fast around impact, a few milliseconds matters. I'll point out that if you look at a slower video or don't look at high speed video stop-action single-frame but just play it, then for wrist motions you may not be able to tell when wrist motions are occurring.

Can you take some videos of your serve?

 

[Lance L]

I find those videos fascinating. The motion on both serves is very, similar. What he varies is where in the swing he contacts the ball.

What do you mean by "wrist snap"? Wrist flexion?

Do you mean wrist snap at anytime during the service motion, during the follow through, or only before ball impact?

Do you believe that high speed video shows what you mean? When?

Serve type unknown. Leading to impact I would not call anything on this serve a 'wrist snap'. By 'snap' I mean an undefined conversational term for wrist joint motion(s).
https://vimeo.com/65434652

Kick serve -
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Slice serve -
https://vimeo.com/27528347

 

[torpantennis]

I find those videos fascinating. The motion on both serves is very, similar. What he varies is where in the swing he contacts the ball.

There's one huge difference. On the slice serve the shoulders have fully rotated before the racquet swings to the ball, but the shoulder rotation is at a much more limited level on the kick serve.

 

[Lance L]

There's one huge difference. On the slice serve the shoulders have fully rotated before the racquet swings to the ball, but the shoulder rotation is at a much more limited level on the kick serve.

But that is exactly my point. The actual motions are almost exactly the same, but on the kick serve the shoulders aren't as turned, and the ball is more to the left, and the racquet is lower, at contact. On the kick serve, the shoulders do eventually turn through, its just that the ball is already gone.

I had never thought of a kick serve like this. I've thought of it as a noticably different motion, and for some it may be, but not this guy. I like the idea one one basic motion for different serves, it simplifies things.

 

[torpantennis]

IMO the greatest asset of the Federer serve is the great disguise, exactly due to a very similar motion, but even more importantly due to an exact same ball toss! Note how he does NOT toss the ball to the right on the slice serve, he uses the kick serve toss on the slice serve!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Pronation is not a wrist articulation. It is a rotation of the forearm. There is some wrist action along with pronation and ISR (shoulder rotation) on the upward swing. However, I would not characterize the wrist action as a wrist snap.

 

[GuyClinch]

There is some upward 'snap' but its not really pronation - its ulnar deviation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUwxiqFUi58

So the wrist is moving from somewhat radial deviated to ulnar deviation..

Do you have to worry much about this - I don't think so. You just have to make sure you position the racquet such that you can have the top side edge moving up towards the ball.

The ISR gives you a lot of the forward thrust whereas this deviation helps you go up over the back of the ball..


This guy explains it if you really want to know - but you don't have to think about it like I said..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLN22FwaqVw

A lot of the 'too cool for school guys' we have on this forum hate on this guy - but he can hit pretty decent serves..