Young ATG v Older ATG as it relates to current tennis

Hold the front pages lads!

Tennis Hands has an exclusive!

What's that? Laver being 18 years older than Borg had an effect on the result!!!!

Incredible! Quick! Print it guys! I feel the Pulitzer for Sports Journalism coming!!!

Hold on just a little longer, lads!

Breaking news: It also applies for the guys that are some 4 years 10 months older and such.

It is not the only thing that matters, but I have done a thread especially for the Spencer Gores of this world, so that they educate themselves what are the other things that influence those.

#mourningnews

:cool:
 
Hold on just a little longer, lads!

Breaking news: It also applies for the guys that are some 4 years 10 months older and such.

:cool:

The 17 year 10 month age difference between Borg and Laver resulted in the older player losing the last four matches between the players.

The 4 year 10 month age difference between Federer and Nadal resulted in the older player winning the last five matches between the players.

What's the link?
 
The 17 year 10 month age difference between Borg and Laver resulted in the older player losing the last four matches between the players.

The 4 year 10 month age difference between Federer and Nadal resulted in the older player winning the last five matches between the players.

What's the link?

The link is that H2Hs are a result of more complex interactions than JUST age.

Let's see: would Federer have won "the last 5 matches", if, say, 4 of them were on clay, and he didn't change his racquet prior to that?

:cool:
 
The link is that H2Hs are a result of more complex interactions than JUST age.

Let's see: would Federer have won "the last 5 matches", if, say, 4 of them were on clay, and he didn't change his racquet prior to that?

:cool:
Which "complex interaction"-other than a 17 year 10 month age gap-contributed to Laver losing four times in a row to Borg?

Which racquet or court would have led to Laver winning five in a row?
 
Which "complex interaction"-other than a 17 year 10 month age gap-contributed to Laver losing four times in a row to Borg?

Which racquet or court would have led to Laver winning five in a row?

The complex interactions caused by match-ups, age, external factors (independent from the player like technology, advancements of training and medicine, surface changes) etc, etc.

Sometimes one of these factors dominates the rest, sometimes they all play equal part in influencing the results of matches between two players. Obviously, as great as Laver was, the age difference was too much to allow for other factors to play significant role in their H2Hs, the way you ask for.

Now, may I ask you to answer my question?

:cool:
 
Are you sure you understood what I wrote? Fed made so many clay finals from 2004-2010. Had he not made those finals his H2H would have been much better against Nadal and those losses would have been distributed amongst many other players thus diluting their effect. Kinda like Nadal's consecutive losses at Wimbledon from 2012 onwards.

Yes probably.

But as the stats show us, if they had met more often at the AO & Wimbledon, Rafa would most likely have won the matchups more often than not. This is why we don't deal in hypotheticals.
 
Yes probably.

But as the stats show us, if they had met more often at the AO & Wimbledon, Rafa would most likely have won the matchups more often than not. This is why we don't deal in hypotheticals.

Huh? Met more at Wimbledon and won that matchup is completely non-sensical. First of all Fed leads on grass 2-1. Secondly the one time Nadal won was playing at his all time peak against a Fed who was horribly shattered in confidence from the FO loss and lack of preparation due to mono earlier in the year. Fed didn't really show up in that match till the 3rd set, he said something along these lines himself. On top of that, all time peak Nadal vs. horrible Fed in 2008 and yet he still only wins by the skin of his teeth. No way that translates to Nadal winning more often than not on grass, lol :).

And once again you are comparing apples and oranges. You are speculated on what WOULD happen had they met more at Wimbledon and HC, and it's a crazy speculation at that, but hey you can have your speculation.

I am not speculating about FO meetings with Nadal. Had Fed lost earlier, it is a FACT the H2H would have been better. There is no comparison.
 
Huh? Met more at Wimbledon and won that matchup is completely non-sensical. First of all Fed leads on grass 2-1. .

Nice try to twist my words. I said if they met more often at AO & Wimby (as a combination - I didn't include USO because they've never met there), according to the stats, Rafa would have won more often than not. The H2H combined is 4-3 outside of RG. So yes, going by this Rafa wins 57% of the time and Fed wins 43% of the time at slams outside of RG. That by definition is more often than not.


Secondly the one time Nadal won was playing at his all time peak against a Fed who was horribly shattered in confidence from the FO loss and lack of preparation due to mono earlier in the year. Fed didn't really show up in that match till the 3rd set, he said something along these lines himself. On top of that, all time peak Nadal vs. horrible Fed in 2008 and yet he still only wins by the skin of his teeth. No way that translates to Nadal winning more often than not on grass, lol :).

Excuses much? If Fed was healthy enough to go deep into the 5th at Wimby, he was healthy enough to win the match, he didn't - Rafa gave him a beat-down at RG and backed it up by taking the grass GOATs crown at Wimby. He then backed that up in their next slam meeting at AO 2009 by taking Fed out there too. Oh and as per my above comment, I didn't say he would win more often than not on grass - that was you clutching at straws once you realised that you were wrong.

So basically no, Rafa owned the rivalry in slams between 2008 and 2014 winning three times at the AO, twice at RG and once at Wimby. Like I said, it is probably better for Fed that they didn't meet more often during that period ;)
 

AceSalvo

Legend
Huh? Met more at Wimbledon and won that matchup is completely non-sensical. First of all Fed leads on grass 2-1. Secondly the one time Nadal won was playing at his all time peak against a Fed who was horribly shattered in confidence from the FO loss and lack of preparation due to mono earlier in the year. Fed didn't really show up in that match till the 3rd set, he said something along these lines himself. On top of that, all time peak Nadal vs. horrible Fed in 2008 and yet he still only wins by the skin of his teeth. No way that translates to Nadal winning more often than not on grass, lol :).

And once again you are comparing apples and oranges. You are speculated on what WOULD happen had they met more at Wimbledon and HC, and it's a crazy speculation at that, but hey you can have your speculation.

I am not speculating about FO meetings with Nadal. Had Fed lost earlier, it is a FACT the H2H would have been better. There is no comparison.

GS Finals H2H

Clay 4-0 Nadal
HC 1-1
Grass 1-2 Fed

Not too bad for an ATG fives years older than his opponent.
 
Nice try to twist my words. I said if they met more often at AO & Wimby (as a combination - I didn't include USO because they've never met there), according to the stats, Rafa would have won more often than not. The H2H combined is 4-3 outside of RG. So yes, going by this Rafa wins 57% of the time and Fed wins 43% of the time at slams outside of RG. That by definition is more often than not.




Excuses much? If Fed was healthy enough to go deep into the 5th at Wimby, he was healthy enough to win the match, he didn't - Rafa gave him a beat-down at RG and backed it up by taking the grass GOATs crown at Wimby. He then backed that up in their next slam meeting at AO 2009 by taking Fed out there too. Oh and as per my above comment, I didn't say he would win more often than not on grass - that was you clutching at straws once you realised that you were wrong.

So basically no, Rafa owned the rivalry in slams between 2008 and 2014 winning three times at the AO, twice at RG and once at Wimby. Like I said, it is probably better for Fed that they didn't meet more often during that period ;)

Why would you combine AO and Wimby? lol. Doesn't make sense to combine them, they are completely different events and slams at that. Completely ridiculous. It's like if Player A leads 10-0 on clay and player B leads 11-0 on grass, then player B is more likely to win over player A even on clay because overall it's 11-10. That's completely stupid and asinine.

My excuses??? It's you people that make the excuses, do you remember 2011? Hilarious. Nada is not peak in 2011, he is playing passive, he's just not at his best. :). Or even 2019, Nadal destroys the field and then all of a sudden he didn't prepare well enough defensively. :). Wow, the hypocrisy.

If you didn't say he would beat Fed more often than not on grass, then there is no point in combining AO and Wimby, to make an overall conclusion. It's completely idiotic and serves no purpose. Rafa owned the overall rivalry mainly because of clay. The H2h would be a lot more different now if fed was a worse player on clay which proves H2H is relatively meaningless when evaluating overall greatness. To many circumstances skew H2Hs.
 
Why would you combine AO and Wimby? lol. Doesn't make sense to combine them, they are completely different events and slams at that. Completely ridiculous. It's like if Player A leads 10-0 on clay and player B leads 11-0 on grass, then player B is more likely to win over player A even on clay because overall it's 11-10. That's completely stupid and asinine.

Pay attention, I wasn't combining AO & Wimby, I was giving you the ''outside of RG stats'' obviously that doesn't include the USO because they've never met there.

My excuses??? It's you people that make the excuses, do you remember 2011? Hilarious. Nada is not peak in 2011, he is playing passive, he's just not at his best. :). Or even 2019, Nadal destroys the field and then all of a sudden he didn't prepare well enough defensively. :). Wow, the hypocrisy.

I haven't made any of those claims

If you didn't say he would beat Fed more often than not on grass

I didn't make that claim either. Can you read or do you struggle with comprehention?

Rafa owned the overall rivalry mainly because of clay. The H2h would be a lot more different now if fed was a worse player on clay which proves H2H is relatively meaningless when evaluating overall greatness. To many circumstances skew H2Hs.

If you actually read my previous posts to you you will see that you are incorrect. If you take out RG, Rafa still leads the slam H2H in the rivalry 4-3. That means that outside of RG Rafa beats Fed 57% of the time. So, based on that, no, the H2H would not have improved if they met more often outside of RG.
 
Pay attention, I wasn't combining AO & Wimby, I was giving you the ''outside of RG stats'' obviously that doesn't include the USO because they've never met there.



I haven't made any of those claims



I didn't make that claim either. Can you read or do you struggle with comprehention?



If you actually read my previous posts to you you will see that you are incorrect. If you take out RG, Rafa still leads the slam H2H in the rivalry 4-3. That means that outside of RG Rafa beats Fed 57% of the time. So, based on that, no, the H2H would not have improved if they met more often outside of RG.

outside RG finals IS combining AO and Wimby, lol. I can read much better than you can pal. Your claim was Nadal would win more often than not had they met more often outside of RG. Outside of RG where they met = Wimby AND AO. Therefore you claimed Nadal would win more often than not at both AO and Wimb since Wimbledon is part of the set of 'outside of Rg'. Therefore you claimed Nadal would win more often than not at Wimby, where Fed leads 2-1, and the one time Nadal won was at his absolute best barely scraping by in the 5th, lol. Yes I can read very and comprehend! It's you who seems to be having trouble with your words.

LOL, you Nadal fans are so sneaky. I said H2H is skewed by clay, not slam H2H, and then you discreetly slip in the word 'slam'. You guys are so oily. Then in your last sentence you switch back to 'H2H' from 'slam H2H'. Hilarious.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Wins over top-5 ranked Big3

Djokovic 48 out of 53 (90.6%)
Nadal 42 out of 48 (87.5%)
Federer 28 out of 37 (75.7%)

Who was in better form when they met? :unsure:
 
Wins over top-5 ranked Big3

Djokovic 48 out of 53 (90.6%)
Nadal 42 out of 48 (87.5%)
Federer 28 out of 37 (75.7%)

Who was in better form when they met? :unsure:

The cold, hard evidence keeps piling up. But when people have got religion they don't listen to reason.
 
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mightyjeditribble

Hall of Fame
I'd like to point out the biggest hole in this that grabs my attention.

5/7 are smaller gaps than Djokovic while Nadal is a matchup issue anyways.

Good point; there are so many gaps though. Clearly there is no interest here in making a serious analysis (which could be interesting), but rather in cherry-picking stats to fit a particular agenda.

I mean the only "examples" that would actually be in support of the poster's assertion would be Lendl-Wilander and McEnroe-Wilander. Are we meant to think of Nadal and Djokovic as a Wilander in this comparison?

Yawn.
 

mightyjeditribble

Hall of Fame
Djokovic-era Djokovic was also in better form than Gonzalez-era Federer.
That's debatable to say the least. And something you can't really prove/disprove with numbers. However, I will say this: Djokovic-era Federer was still able to push Djokovic-era Djokovic pretty hard. I believe peak-Federer-era Federer would have done even better.

But we can't know for sure, and in some sense it's irrelevant.

(Sent from my mobile phone.)
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
The truth has been exposed. Brilliant thread.

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