Djokovic's return game and baseline game at Wimbledon was at an all time highest

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

Djokovic created 100 BP opportunities during the course of the tournament. Wich is 2nd highest number since 1992, and only the 2nd to hit triple digits. Djokovic's previous record was 96 BPs and that was in 2013. The leader is Hewitt with 110 BPs created wich was in 2002.

Djokovic's BPs in 2018 Wimbledon:

7/19 vs Sandgren (37% conversion)

6/13 vs Zeballos (46% conversion)

4/17 vs Edmund (24 % conversion)

7/14 vs Khachanov (50% conversion)

7/14 vs Nishikori (50% conversion)

4/19 vs Nadal (21% conversion)

4/4 vs Anderson (100% conversion)

In total: 39/100 (39%)
---

His conversion rate isn't too good,but when you create so many opportunities, you are going to have alot of breaks.

------------

Further, if you compare the amount of BPs Djokovic created vs his peers, there is a big difference.

The 2nd player who created the most BP opportunities in the tournament after Djokovic was Nadal, with 68 BP chances. So Djokovic was on a whole other planet with his 100.

Also If we check his return stats in this years Wimby and compare that to his other winning years at Wimbledon, we get these numbers

Return games won %

2015: 24%
2014: 23%
2011: 31%

2018: 34%

Lets check other return stats:

1st serve return % won

2015: 29%
2014: 28%
2011: 33 %

2018: 36%

2nd serve return % won

2015: 52%
2014: 55%
2011: 55%

2018: 56%

Return points won %

2015: 38%
2014: 38%
2011: 41%

2018: 43%

--------

Also, Baseline points won %

2015: 53.7%
2014: 48.6%
2011: 55.7%

2018: 55.9%

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

We might have just seen peak returnovic at this years Wimbledon.

Plamen1234 · Jul 23, 2018

His break conversion against Nadal is almost as bad as Federer BP conversion was against Djokovic at US Open final 2015.

Jonas78 · Jul 23, 2018

Plamen1234 said:
His break conversion against Nadal is almost as bad as Federer BP conversion was against Djokovic at US Open final 2015.

I think its a combination of Rafa being amazing at saving BP's and Djokovic still lacking some confidence vs top players on the big stage. I fear Ultron will be back for the upcoming slams

Plamen1234 · Jul 23, 2018

Jonas78 said:
I think its a combination of Rafa being amazing at saving BP's and Djokovic still lacking some confidence vs top players on the big stage. I fear Ultron will be back for the uocoming slams

I dont think Djokovic will reach his 2011/2015 form again but he will be contender for the next Slams for sure.US Open this year will be very interesting.

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

Jonas78 said:
I think its a combination of Rafa being amazing at saving BP's and Djokovic still lacking some confidence vs top players on the big stage. I fear Ultron will be back for the upcoming slams

If Djokovic produces these kind of numbers, there are no limits for what he could do.

Jonas78 · Jul 23, 2018

Plamen1234 said:
I dont think Djokovic will reach his 2011/2015 form again but he will be contender for the next Slams for sure.US Open this year will be very interesting.

Yeah i agree, i was mostly thinking about the BP convertion.

Sport · Jul 23, 2018

@RF-18 Nice! I knew Djokovic is the man who overall broke more the serve of his rivals. Do you have Nadal stats at the return this Wimbledon? Where did you get these stats?

Sport · Jul 23, 2018

Double post.

Sport · Jul 23, 2018

Triple post.

Sport · Jul 23, 2018

Jonas78 said:
I think its a combination of Rafa being amazing at saving BP's and Djokovic still lacking some confidence vs top players on the big stage. I fear Ultron will be back for the upcoming slams

Nah... it was just Nadal played great the BP he faced. It has nothing to do with psychology or confidence, if Nadal was serving well and crushing the line with the forehand Djokovic did not have time to arrive. Djokovic broke more frequently Nadal in 2011/2012 because Nadal was playing far more defensive. Since 2017/2018 Nadal is a far more offensive player than in 2011/2012.

Raining hopes · Jul 23, 2018

That is why I believe in Eye test Djokovic 2015 was a level better.

pikku05 · Jul 23, 2018

But his overall level of play was nothing close to his best

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

Sport said:
@RF-18 Nice! I knew Djokovic is the man who overall broke more the serve of his rivals. Do you have Nadal stats at the return this Wimbledon? Where did you get these stats?

Nadal:

Return games won %

27%

First serve return won %

31%

2nd Serve return won %

53%

Return points won %

39%

This site is where I get the stats. It's really good. You can see for all years and all surfaces and competitions.

http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4742

MatsPhilander · Jul 23, 2018

AnOctorokForDinner · Jul 23, 2018

Except mentally, which is a big factor and wasting so many BPs almost cost him the tournament in the Nadal semi. This Djokovic with peak mental strength may have rivalled 2011ovic, really.

Sport · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
Nadal:

Return games won %

27%

First serve return won %

31%

2nd Serve return won %

53%

Return points won %

39%

This site is where I get the stats. It's really good. You can see for all years and all surfaces and competitions.

http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/playerProfile?playerId=4742

Wow! Nadal this Wimbledon won more return points (39%) than Djokovic at Wimbledon in 2014 (38%) and 2015 (38%). But Djokovic this Wimbledon won 43% of his return points! So statistically Wimbledon 2018 is Djokovic's best return season at Wimbledon!

BeatlesFan · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
If Djokovic produces these kind of numbers, there are no limits for what he could do.

He will easily win all slams until 2026. No limits to his dominance!

upchuck · Jul 23, 2018

I find the idea that given those statistics one could just look at Djokovic and tell he wasn't playing as well as he did in a prior year to be laughable.

pikku05 said:
But his overall level of play was nothing close to his best

You can't point to anything that would back up this notion. No statistic.

AnOctorokForDinner said:
Except mentally, which is a big factor and wasting so many BPs almost cost him the tournament in the Nadal semi. This Djokovic with peak mental strength may have rivalled 2011ovic, really.

He won an extremely tight match against Nadal and prevented Anderson from winning the third set of their match. Djokovic showed tremendous mental strength at this year's Wimbledon.

Federev · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
Djokovic created 100 BP opportunities during the course of the tournament. Wich is 2nd highest number since 1992, and only the 2nd to hit triple digits. Djokovic's previous record was 96 BPs and that was in 2013. The leader is Hewitt with 110 BPs created wich was in 2002.

Djokovic's BPs in 2018 Wimbledon:

7/19 vs Sandgren (37% conversion)

6/13 vs Zeballos (46% conversion)

4/17 vs Edmund (24 % conversion)

7/14 vs Khachanov (50% conversion)

7/14 vs Nishikori (50% conversion)

4/19 vs Nadal (21% conversion)

4/4 vs Anderson (100% conversion)

In total: 39/100 (39%)
---

His conversion rate isn't too good,but when you create so many opportunities, you are going to have alot of breaks.

------------

Further, if you compare the amount of BPs Djokovic created vs his peers, there is a big difference.

The 2nd player who created the most BP opportunities in the tournament after Djokovic was Nadal, with 68 BP chances. So Djokovic was on a whole other planet with his 100.

Also If we check his return stats in this years Wimby and compare that to his other winning years at Wimbledon, we get these numbers

Return games won %

2015: 24%
2014: 23%
2011: 31%

2018: 34%

Lets check other return stats:

1st serve return % won

2015: 29%
2014: 28%
2011: 33 %

2018: 36%

2nd serve return % won

2015: 52%
2014: 55%
2011: 55%

2018: 56%

Return points won %

2015: 38%
2014: 38%
2011: 41%

2018: 43%

--------

Also, Baseline points won %

2015: 53.7%
2014: 48.6%
2011: 55.7%

2018: 55.9%

Breakpoints are a really unreliable standard of performance. (Of course overall Novak did awesome. Who can argue?)

But Fed fans know that well from the USO ‘15 final. Fed had an amazing BP creation performance. But it just highlighted how poor he was at converting.

The real question isn’t how many breakpoints but the efficieny of conversion and their impact on a set.

I’d take just 3 successful breakpoints evenly spaced over 3 sets of best of 5 - for the match win - as better than any 4-5 set epic with 23 BPs.

Red Rick · Jul 23, 2018

7 matches is a terrible sample size, especially considering he didn't play any big server who played well, and he played a bunch of small serving baseliners.

AnOctorokForDinner · Jul 23, 2018

upchuck said:
He won an extremely tight match against Nadal and prevented Anderson from winning the third set of their match. Djokovic showed tremendous mental strength at this year's Wimbledon.

Winning a close match doesn't always indicate mental strength. Sometimes a better player makes the match closer than it should've been because of mental lapses. Happened to Federer a lot in BO3, for example (he still wins most of those and nobody cares if it's 7-6 6-4 instead of 6-3 6-3 it could've been, so).
Djokovic was better than Nadal in the semifinal by a bigger margin than the scoreline indicates (not much better, but the scoreline literally has them equal until the very end), so that match could have been less tight had Djokovic been in peak mental form.

nolefam_2024 · Jul 23, 2018

I felt that way even in Queens. That's why I was hoping he will clash with Fed. His return game vs Fed's serve would matchup good and then Fed's groundstrokes would not match up with his game. Would have been good contest though.

nolefam_2024 · Jul 23, 2018

Who had more breakpoint chances than 100 though? Was it Nadal, Agassi, Hewitt?

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

Red Rick said:
7 matches is a terrible sample size, especially considering he didn't play any big server who played well, and he played a bunch of small serving baseliners.

What? He played 7 matches at the other edition too. Thats all im comparing with.

Statistically this was peak returnovic. Those numbers are sick

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

nachiket nolefam said:
Who had more breakpoint chances than 100 though? Was it Nadal, Agassi, Hewitt?

Hewitt. He had 110

nolefam_2024 · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
Hewitt. He had 110

Was there another heat wave in 2002? From stats, its clear that Novak is back at his best on return, but the ground being firm this year has helped his numbers.

Hewitt having even 10 more BPs than him, looks like ground was even more firm that year.

Checkmate · Jul 23, 2018

I was quite amazed by his composure while returning in the 3rd set TB against Anderson. That gave the vibes of 2011 Djokovic.

Honestly he was amazingly consistent from the Baseline This year and you could tell that as he progressed further in the tournament.

NatF · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
What? He played 7 matches at the other edition too. Thats all im comparing with.

Statistically this was peak returnovic. Those numbers are sick

It's a small sample size for both and in such a small sample size the draw and how the opponents played can make a big difference. For the BP's created we'd need to see how many return games and return points were played as well, longer matches will have more BP chances obviously.

Deleted member 756486 · Jul 23, 2018

BeatlesFan said:
He will easily win all slams until 2026. No limits to his dominance!

No Novak fan has ever claimed that.

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

Red Rick said:
7 matches is a terrible sample size, especially considering he didn't play any big server who played well, and he played a bunch of small serving baseliners.

pretty much this.

was clearly better in 2011. better in 2014 and 2015 as well.

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

oh and its a bit hilarious to put in no of BPs btw.

If you are at 0-40 and convert at the first, you have only 1 BP.
If you are 0-40 and convert on the 3rd, you have 3 BPs.

logic says 1st one is better. No of BPs has 2nd one as better, which is LOLworthy.

BrokenGears · Jul 23, 2018

And at @abmk comes to annoy once again.

“ Hurr dur, Fedr lost to Anderson, so let’s just bash Novak “

jm1980 · Jul 23, 2018

Jonas78 said:
I think its a combination of Rafa being amazing at saving BP's and Djokovic still lacking some confidence vs top players on the big stage. I fear Ultron will be back for the upcoming slams

Djokovic missed a lot of makable returns against Nadal

It was pretty frustrating to watch

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

NatF said:
It's a small sample size for both and in such a small sample size the draw and how the opponents played can make a big difference. For the BP's created we'd need to see how many return games and return points were played as well, longer matches will have more BP chances obviously.

So what do you wanna say? These stats are bad? Overrated?

NoleFam · Jul 23, 2018

I'm surprised at these numbers except for the baseline play because he was rock solid on the baseline this Wimbledon. The return numbers surprised me because it didn't feel like he was returning that well but his return did get better with every match. The way he returned Anderson's serve reminded of how he just dismantled Raonic's in the IW final. He was returning those 130 mph bombs deep into the court and forcing him into a rally where he would gain the upper hand. His game has been getting better every tournament and I would like to see his level in the US hardcourt season.

Red Rick · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
What? He played 7 matches at the other edition too. Thats all im comparing with.

Statistically this was peak returnovic. Those numbers are sick

Statistically we can't say **** because samples are tiny and not comparable

NatF · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
So what do you wanna say? These stats are bad? Overrated?

You're still a pissy little thing aren't you?

It's not straight forward to compare is what I'm saying.

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

BrokenGears said:
And at @abmk comes to annoy once again.

“ Hurr dur, Fedr lost to Anderson, so let’s just bash Novak “

I'm just bashing the crappy analysis done over here.

Saying Novak was better in Wim 11/14/15 is not bashing Novak. But then that went above your head, didn't it ?

BrokenGears · Jul 23, 2018

abmk said:
I'm just bashing the crappy analysis done over here.

Saying Novak was better in Wim 11/14/15 is not bashing Novak. But then that went above your head, didn't it ?

I agree that 18 Novak was not as strong

But creating that many BPs opportunities is a good thing

Jonas78 · Jul 23, 2018

jm1980 said:
Djokovic missed a lot of makable returns against Nadal

It was pretty frustrating to watch

Yeah as a Federer-fan i fear Djokovic will have a lot more confidence the next slam, he will be a tough task for Fedal in the time to come

jm1980 · Jul 23, 2018

abmk said:
oh and its a bit hilarious to put in no of BPs btw.

If you are at 0-40 and convert at the first, you have only 1 BP.
If you are 0-40 and convert on the 3rd, you have 3 BPs.

logic says 1st one is better. No of BPs has 2nd one as better, which is LOLworthy.

Yeah, but these other stats seem to indicate he returned better in 2018, no?

RF-18 said:
Return games won %

2015: 24%
2014: 23%
2011: 31%

2018: 34%

Lets check other return stats:

1st serve return % won

2015: 29%
2014: 28%
2011: 33 %

2018: 36%

2nd serve return % won

2015: 52%
2014: 55%
2011: 55%

2018: 56%

Return points won %

2015: 38%
2014: 38%
2011: 41%

2018: 43%

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

jm1980 said:
Yeah, but these other stats seem to indicate he returned better in 2018, no?

what NatF said :

"It's a small sample size for both and in such a small sample size the draw and how the opponents played can make a big difference. "

in 2011, he faced one big server playing atleast some good tennis - Tsonga.
no one in 2018 that fits the bill. Anderson played sh*t for the first 2 sets. When he did pick up his level in the 3rd set, Djoko didn't get a single BP.

Djoko broke Nadal 5 times in 16 return games in 2011
only 4 times in 30 return games in 2018.

of course Nadal was playing clearly better in 2018, but that's still too big of a difference. and djokovic's return+ground game played a big part in dragging Nadal down in 2011.

in 2014, he faced Stepanek SnVing well in 2R, Tsonga in 4R, Cilic in QF and fed in the final. even dimitrov in the semi was not a pushover.
much tougher to get good return stats than his 2018 draw, no ?

2015 again, Anderson who actually played well enough in 4 sets out of 5, Cilic and then Federer.
much tougher to get good return stats than his 2018 draw, no ?

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
So what do you wanna say? These stats are bad? Overrated?

they are misleading.

See post #39.

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

NatF said:
You're still a pissy little thing aren't you?

It's not straight forward to compare is what I'm saying.

No I'm not was just asking why you were looking into it so deeply

We might aswell just scrap all statistics if we are gonna be so picky about it.

These stats tell us this was the best returning performance by Djokovic on grass. Take it however you want. I just posted stats

metsman · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
We might aswell just scrap all statistics if we are gonna be so picky about it.

so if a statistic agrees with you, we ignore all context and throw hissy fit if someone calls you out on it. ROFLMAO, I mean, lol.

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

metsman said:
so if a statistic agrees with you, we ignore all context and throw hissy fit if someone calls you out on it. ROFLMAO, I mean, lol.

I'm not throwing a hissy fit. I just posted some stats. Do whatever you want with it.

But still these numbers are crazy good.

metsman · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
I'm not throwing a hissy fit. I just posted some stats. Do whatever you want with it.

But still these numbers are crazy good.

So 2018 peak Djokovic?

abmk · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
I'm not throwing a hissy fit. I just posted some stats. Do whatever you want with it.

But still these numbers are crazy good.

yeah, if we ignore the context that Khachanov played sh*t, so did Anderson for the 1st 2 sets, Nishi couldn't protect his serve well (even more so in the last 2 sets), zebballos, sandgren were sort of walkovers.

When you actually saw the Djokovic return being put to test, he was inconsistent. returned well vs Nadal for a set and half, but went down after that.When Anderson actually served+played well in the 3rd set, djoko didn't have a single BP in that set.

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

metsman said:
So 2018 peak Djokovic?

abmk said:
yeah, if we ignore the context that Khachanov played sh*t, so did Anderson for the 1st 2 sets, Nishi couldn't protect his serve well (even more so in the last 2 sets), zebballos, sandgren were sort of walkovers.

When you actually saw the Djokovic return being put to test, he was inconsistent. returned well vs Nadal for a set and half, but went down after that.When Anderson actually served+played well in the 3rd set, djoko didn't have a single BP in that set.

According to my eye test I thought Novak 2015/2011 was more impressive but these stats surprised me and I think we should give credit for this performance instead of throwing it in the bin by saying other players played **** and that's why these stats are looking like this.

Let's stop that nonsense.

NatF · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
No I'm not was just asking why you were looking into it so deeply

We might aswell just scrap all statistics if we are gonna be so picky about it.

These stats tell us this was the best returning performance by Djokovic on grass. Take it however you want. I just posted stats

So what you're saying is we should ignore context when looking at stats?

Shangri La · Jul 23, 2018

Total number of BP created can be misleading. You are more likely to create more BP in a 5set match than in a 3 set match. A better stat would be BP created per set.

metsman · Jul 23, 2018

RF-18 said:
According to my eye test I thought Novak 2015/2011 was more impressive but these stats surprised me and I think we should give credit for this performance instead of throwing it in the bin by saying other players played **** and that's why these stats are looking like this.

Let's stop that nonsense.

So djokovic with 3 more years of experience and career best stats is not peak Djokovic because common sense, eye test, and the slightest bit of context dictate that it's a ridiculous opinion. Funny how that works.

RF-18 · Jul 23, 2018

metsman said:
So djokovic with 3 more years of experience and career best stats is not peak Djokovic because common sense, eye test, and the slightest bit of context dictates that it's a ridiculous opinion. Funny how that works.

According to the stats it was the best returning performance from Djokovic on GRASS in his career. This wasn't about him as a player or all surfaces. You must keep up here and not wander around on other things.

While at it, I should say his serving stats was not on par with his previous serving performances here, but couldn't these return numbers make up for that slight regress in serving?

Djokovic's return game and baseline game at Wimbledon was at an all time highest

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