W 04 Roddick and W 15 Djokovic

[ForehandRF]

The reason I say four and not five is because 2015 Fed took a big drop in form after set 2. Set 3 was ok from him and set 4 was pretty bad. 2015 Fed just couldn’t keep it up for longer than two sets of high intensity. Roddick was much better in the second half of the match than Fed, and if he starts the 2015 match with the same confidence he had in 2004, the first set is probably his as well. That gives Roddick the advantage at the beginning and end of the match. That’s my reasoning.

I think that Roddick loses to Djokovic in 4/5, likely 5.

Still, it's a mammoth task to defeat Fed in less that 5 sets in a Wimbledon Final and ,as we know, this has happened only one time and that when he faced a peaking ATG who played probably his best final at SW19.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Still, it's a mammoth task to defeat Fed in less that 5 sets in a Wimbledon Final and ,as we know, this has happened only one time and that when he faced a peaking ATG who played probably his best final at SW19.

Roddick in 2004/2009 in the final loses to every pre 2014 final Federer and is probably a 50-50 or slightly more than 50-50 favourite with 2014-2015 Federer in the final at SW19.

 

[ForehandRF]

Roddick in 2004/2009 in the final loses to every pre 2014 final Federer and is probably a 50-50 or slightly more than 50-50 favourite with 2014-2015 Federer in the final at SW19.

It means that he loses to 2010-2011 Fed too and I don't see things this way, especially against 2010 Fed.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

It means that he loses to 2010-2011 Fed too and I don't see things this way, especially against 2010 Fed.

I meant every time he reached a final so not counting 2010-11 Federer.

 

[NatF]

The point was that if people don't believe Roddick is a better returner/baseliner than Djokovic (which I assume pretty much everyone doesn't) then they are logically forced to accept that Federer was better on serve in 2015 than he was in 2004 which is not something I would think many Fed fans would want to accept. This thread was meant to illustrate that Fed was better at what constitutes half of tennis (holding serve) while in his post prime which indicates how much he declined is not all that much at all which is in stark contradiction to what you and most Fed fans claim. I did not intend to make any points about Roddick and Djokovic (at least not directly) and I do agree that most rate 15ovic higher. No one has refuted my logic at all and has just resorted to insulting me and the worthiness of the argument which indicates to me that I've hit on something here. The only refutation with any merit is that one match is too small of a sample size and that Roddick could have been a better returner/baseliner in just this match to which I would say it's held as both of their best W matches so I think that's a ridiculous argument.

Meh, Roddick had a bunch of purple patches early on when he clustered return points well and the second set wasn't great on serve from either. Federer did serve better in 2015 but I ala0 think the colder conditions in 2004 helped Roddick out - he played a low percentage game on return and it paid off in the first three sets. The returns themselves were obviously generally worse than Djokovic's but I don't see why he couldn't have been doing better in the rallies on the whole. He was going big and taking initiative early in the rallies, and most were going in. Different style to the 2015 final which was more controlled aggression and controlling the centre of the court.

There's a big difference between 04 and 15 Fed as well, maybe it's smaller comparing the two finals but it's still there.

 

[zagor]

2015 Novak would have been the favourite but 2004 Roddick would have a puncher's chance on grass against anyone the way he played at Wimbledon that year (the final especially).

Poll options are just usual TTW stupid baiting. Is Stan a better returner/baseliner than peak Novak? Does Krajicek do anything better than Sampras on the whole?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

2015 Novak would have been the favourite but 2004 Roddick would have a puncher's chance on grass against anyone the way he played at Wimbledon that year (the final especially).

Poll options are just usual TTW stupid baiting. Is Stan a better returner/baseliner against Novak? Does Krajicek do anything better than Sampras on the whole?

Certainly there are some individuals who profess Stanislas was a more capable baseliner than Federer at his peak, at least on slow courts. Roflmao indeed.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Meh, Roddick had a bunch of purple patches early on when he clustered return points well and the second set wasn't great on serve from either. Federer did serve better in 2015 but I ala0 think the colder conditions in 2004 helped Roddick out - he played a low percentage game on return and it paid off in the first three sets. The returns themselves were obviously generally worse than Djokovic's but I don't see why he couldn't have been doing better in the rallies on the whole. He was going big and taking initiative early in the rallies, and most were going in. Different style to the 2015 final which was more controlled aggression and controlling the centre of the court.

There's a big difference between 04 and 15 Fed as well, maybe it's smaller comparing the two finals but it's still there.

2015 is like in the bottom 3 Federer W finals while with 2004 it is very hard to claim it is lower than top 4.

 

[NatF]

2015 is like in the bottom 3 Federer W finals while with 2004 it is very hard to claim it is lower than top 4.

The Wimbledon final was one of the weaker matches Fed played on grass in 2004, however 2004 was arguably his best year on grass. Hence there being a big difference but maybe slightly smaller final to final. Obviously 2015 is a bottom three or four final anyway, I wasn't saying they were comparable.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

The Wimbledon final was one of the weaker matches Fed played on grass in 2004, however 2004 was arguably his best year on grass. Hence their being a difference but maybe slightly smaller final to final. Obviously 2015 is a bottom three or four final anyway, I wasn't saying they were comparable.

I know you never said it i was just adding it in for some context. Very little if anything to choose between 2003-2006 Federer at WI in general.

I have seen a few comments like that on 2004 Federer in the final vs Roddick i has been a long time since i saw the match but by eye it looked like Federer was at least close to his best.

 

[NatF]

I know you never said it i was just adding it in for some context. Very little if anything to choose between 2003-2006 Federer at WI in general.

I have seen a few comments like that on 2004 Federer in the final vs Roddick i has been a long time since i saw the match but by eye it look like Federer was at least close to his best.

He was good, especially in sets 3 & 4, I think Arod robbed him of rhythm a bit. I think the biggest mark against him is that he didn't get his serve clicking until a bit into the match.

 

[ForehandRF]

I know you never said it i was just adding it in for some context. Very little if anything to choose between 2003-2006 Federer at WI in general.

I have seen a few comments like that on 2004 Federer in the final vs Roddick i has been a long time since i saw the match but by eye it looked like Federer was at least close to his best.

If I would have to choose, I would pick 2006 Fed for the whole tournament.

 

[Druss]

I generally think that the decline of all Big 3 members has been greatly exaggerated by all fanbases. They are less consistent and physical now. That's the main difference but they can still bring it or at least very close to it for big matches. I think 04 is better than 15 but while a lot of people would say oh Fed was like 50% of himself or something absurd like that I'm more in the camp of nah he was like 95% of himself. That goes for 18-21 Djokr and 17-20 Nadal too.

You’re really pushing it by saying 95%. Also those saying Fed was at 50% are probably trolling. I think it‘S closer to 80%, 85% tops. The same goes for 18-21 Djokr and 17-20 Nads, with the exception of AO 19 and RG17 respectively.

 

[zagor]

Certainly there are some individuals who profess Stanislas was a more capable baseliner than Federer at his peak, at least on slow courts. Roflmao indeed.

Even if they do, they still wouldn't agree with him being a better slow court player than Novak. Following their logic, Wawrinka should have been routined in all of his slam meetings with Novak.

Acting like it's disrespectful to Novak to suggest 2004 Roddick would have a legit shot is just plain ridiculous, and the poll options are garbage.

 

[RS]

If I would have to choose, I would pick 2006 Fed for the whole tournament.

I was going to make a thread posting the 2006 full match but Nadal lost.

 

[The Guru]

Meh, Roddick had a bunch of purple patches early on when he clustered return points well and the second set wasn't great on serve from either. Federer did serve better in 2015 but I ala0 think the colder conditions in 2004 helped Roddick out - he played a low percentage game on return and it paid off in the first three sets. The returns themselves were obviously generally worse than Djokovic's but I don't see why he couldn't have been doing better in the rallies on the whole. He was going big and taking initiative early in the rallies, and most were going in. Different style to the 2015 final which was more controlled aggression and controlling the centre of the court.

There's a big difference between 04 and 15 Fed as well, maybe it's smaller comparing the two finals but it's still there.

I don't get what you're going for here. Is this an argument that Roddick baselined better than Djokovic in this match and that made up for the differing quality of return? If so fair enough that's one way of getting out of saying that Fed was better at half of what constitutes tennis in 2015 Final, I think that it's complete ludicrous but hey what do I know?

There's a difference sure but it ain't big.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

I don't get what you're going for here. Is this an argument that Roddick baselined better than Djokovic in this match and that made up for the differing quality of return? If so fair enough that's one way of getting out of saying that Fed was better at half of what constitutes tennis in 2015 Final, I think that it's complete ludicrous but hey what do I know?

There's a difference sure but it ain't big.

I think you are understating the difference at least a bit.

The difference in return and ablity to keep it up for long in 2004 was even bigger than the serve difference in 2015 in those finals.

 

[The Guru]

I think you are understating the difference at least a bit.

The difference in return and ablity to keep it up for long in 2004 was even bigger than the serve difference in 2015 in those finals.

Agreed but the overall difference in level is being greatly exaggerated by you and others

 

[NatF]

I don't get what you're going for here. Is this an argument that Roddick baselined better than Djokovic in this match and that made up for the differing quality of return? If so fair enough that's one way of getting out of saying that Fed was better at half of what constitutes tennis in 2015 Final, I think that it's complete ludicrous but hey what do I know?

There's a difference sure but it ain't big.

Probably your definition of baselining needs adjusting. Roddick obviously played well enough from the back to take the advantage over Federer for good chunks of the match. This against a clearly better Federer from the back as well. Roddick's effectiveness off the ground shouldn't be in dispute here, its told in the scoreboard. I don't see how that's any more ludicrous than your position that Federer was only slightly better in 2004...Clarifying Roddick wasn't better per say, just different. Players go for and execute low percentage plays all the time, but its not their usual level hence why its low percentage. Like when Fed served like he was channelling the spirit of Sampras in the 2015 SF, generally Fed ain't a top 10 server but when he's getting that many in and placing it so well he nearly looks like it for a match.

I already said Federer served better in 2015 as well btw. Roddick also executed his gameplan off the ground in excellent fashion for much of the match. The stats are a combined of the two.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Agreed but the overall difference in level is being greatly exaggerated by you and others

The same could be said about all fanbases in topics in general.

 

[BGod]

2015 Fed at Wimbledon was indeed a sight. And Novak crushed him.

I take that Fed over Roddick in 04 so yes, Novak in this.

 

[RS]

2015 Fed at Wimbledon was indeed a sight. And Novak crushed him.

I take that Fed over Roddick in 04 so yes, Novak in this.

Rare Federer fan opinion to take 2015 Federer over 2004 Roddick on grass.

 

[mike danny]

2015 Fed at Wimbledon was indeed a sight. And Novak crushed him.

I take that Fed over Roddick in 04 so yes, Novak in this.

Nah, in their respective finals 2004 Roddick was better and it's not particularly close.

 

[The Guru]

Nah, in their respective finals 2004 Roddick was better and it's not particularly close.

bruh

 

[Deleted member 779124]

bruh

Not a huge difference like some make it sound but you could make a good case Roddick played better.

 

[The Guru]

Not a huge difference like some make it sound but you could make a good case Roddick played better.

Sure but that's a totally different claim. Not even close is insane.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Sure but that's a totally different claim. Not even close is insane.

Depends on what you consider not close. Certainly not a blowout i agree on that.

 

[The Guru]

Depends on what you consider not close. Certainly not a blowout i agree on that.

It really doesn't depend. I think Fed was better but I'm not going to pretend there's a significant difference.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

It really doesn't depend. I think Fed was better but I'm not going to pretend there's a significant difference.

Not close could be considered a medium margin but fair enough on your view Federer was better.

 

[Third Serve]

It really doesn't depend. I think Fed was better but I'm not going to pretend there's a significant difference.

Yeah, I agree. I don’t think it’d be 6-0 6-0 6-0, people are being too harsh on Djokovic there. It’s closer to 6-0 6-0 6-3 imo

 

[mike danny]

It really doesn't depend. I think Fed was better but I'm not going to pretend there's a significant difference.

Well, maybe I exaggerated, but Fed wasn't better. After the first 2 sets he was done.

 

[NatF]

Well, maybe I exaggerated, but Fed wasn't better. After the first 2 sets he was done.

Roddick better first, Federer better second, Roddick better in the third and fourth.

 

[RS]

It really doesn't depend. I think Fed was better but I'm not going to pretend there's a significant difference.

Didn’t you comment on my ratings thread you rate Federer of the W15 final as a 8.75-9/10?

 

[mike danny]

Roddick better first, Federer better second, Roddick better in the third and fourth.

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Deleted member 779124]

Roddick better first, Federer better second, Roddick better in the third and fourth.

I believe Roddick was like 0.5-1 rating better.

 

[zagor]

Rare Federer fan opinion to take 2015 Federer over 2004 Roddick on grass.

He's a Fed fan?

 

[zagor]

Probably your definition of baselining needs adjusting. Roddick obviously played well enough from the back to take the advantage over Federer for good chunks of the match. This against a clearly better Federer from the back as well. Roddick's effectiveness off the ground shouldn't be in dispute here, its told in the scoreboard. I don't see how that's any more ludicrous than your position that Federer was only slightly better in 2004...Clarifying Roddick wasn't better per say, just different. Players go for and execute low percentage plays all the time, but its not their usual level hence why its low percentage. Like when Fed served like he was channelling the spirit of Sampras in the 2015 SF, generally Fed ain't a top 10 server but when he's getting that many in and placing it so well he nearly looks like it for a match.

I already said Federer served better in 2015 as well btw. Roddick also executed his gameplan off the ground in excellent fashion for much of the match. The stats are a combined of the two.

It's just the usual stats! and names over form/level of play argument without any deeper analysis of point by point play in the match (yes, the dreaded eye-test).

Anderson had best Wimbledon Novak on the ropes and he's nowhere near the baseliner/returner/anything on grass even compared to Fed in his 30s, ditto for a guy like Soderling who's still the only one to ever beat an in-form Nadal at the FO, would anyone argue that a guy with no slam titles is a better baseliner than Novak or Fed? Aggressive players can zone in and take the racquet out of opponent's hands, even if said opponent will otherwise out-steady them on a regular basis.

Heck I'm pretty sure Ivanisevic won more return points against Sampras in some of their Wimbledon matches than Agassi did in '99, doesn't mean anyone claims they're in the same class when it comes to ROS.

 

[RS]

Roddick better first, Federer better second, Roddick better in the third and fourth.

Roddick stayed a threat in set 4 so yeah NID.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

Roddick.

 

[T007]

Once again agreed. However it's also a bit more than that. Fed fans can concede his serve got better while trashing every other part of his game but he also backs up his improved serve well enough that his service games in general improved. His drop off on return and defending from the back outweighs that improvement of course but he was still a great player in 2015.

His serve used to more flat in his younger years. I mean both his serve and FH were flat with very less amount of spin and variations. As he grew old he couldn't generate that pace on serve and FH so he started to add more spin & angles to compensate that lost pace on his serve.

Bigger racket helped him to improve some part of his game in 2014 but it also produced more amount of UFE and the sweet timing of his FH was missing