TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Look at Hsieh. Textbook.
Pusher runs opponent around like a yo-yo
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Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
And yet she never wins a tournament. Creates problems but always loses by the 4th round.
You can only do so much with no weapons in tennis. Hsieh does more than anyone because she has such precise racquet control.
You can only do so much with no weapons in tennis. Hsieh does more than anyone because she has such precise racquet control.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Yes, you can only do so much.
She only has earned $7,000,000 playing tennis as a pro.
She will be forever stuck in the pathetic UTR 13 level.
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/10479
I am so glad I have big weapons!
She only has earned $7,000,000 playing tennis as a pro.
She will be forever stuck in the pathetic UTR 13 level.
https://www.myutr.com/profiles/10479
I am so glad I have big weapons!
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TimeToPlaySets
Legend
The point I posted speaks for itself.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Only problem is the pusher lost the point as well as the match in your example. I don’t think that was the intent and goal of the pusher.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, pros like Hsieh aren’t “pushers”. Hsieh has incredible disguise, variety, range and precision in her shots. She looks to win the point outright with drop shots and crazy angle winners. Pushers at the rec level don’t typically have much variety and range. Their goal is to just to get the ball back anywhere in the court to make their opponent hit another shot.
You’re right. TTPS is clueless because according to him, Fed is a pusher, too.
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Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Most of her power is just redirecting opponents pace. She hits flat and gets that redirected power into the corners well. She doesn't create a lot of power. But her incredible racquet control and touch get her wins. She'll never blow anyone off the court but she will make life hard for anyone. I'm sure all people that play against her want to poke their eyes out after the match. I tend to just giggle a lot watching her frustrate stronger opponents.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
She's more the junk baller/ chop shotter mold of player rather than paceless all defense pusher. She goes into every corner. Pushers rarely hit within 6 feet of a line.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
A 4.0 pusher can paint the lines like an artist.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
Definitely not a pusher. In fact, I would say that she is one of the few WTA players who attempts to take control and dictate the point. Every opportunity she gets, she is attempting to change direction + pace, create angles and make the point uncomfortable for her opponent. How's that pushing? How many WTA players ball bash neutral shots down the middle of the court?
She doesn't have a whole lot of pace or power so she's working with what she has and putting her ball bashing WTA opponents in uncomfortable positions. Watch her matches more carefully and one can note that in many cases, she's the one attempting to take control of the point. She just happens to play the higher percentages and not bash a winner every time.
And yes... I liked watching Radwanska, BMS (the S&V version before her injury), and now Hsieh + Barty. Anything but baseline ball bashing please.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Anyone that paints lines is not a pusher. Pushers are low risk players that wait for you to make a mistake. Painting lines is a high risk shot. Pushers don't hit within 6 feet of a line except by accident. You've broadened your definition of pusher too far, methinks.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I don't think she plays high percentages. I think she has amazing ball control. If any cookie cutter WTA pro tried some of the shots Hsieh hits, they'd fail most of the time. Angles, droppers, skidding cut shots down the line or into your feet. That's tough to execute compared to just moonballing a topspin shot down the middle.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
Agree... Painting lines may work 1 day but not another. The guys who are really good have their tennis computers wired to calculate where they need to hit the ball based on court conditions, opponent movement/speed, the quality of the ball they are returning + hitting, how well they are playing, etc, etc, to hit with enough margin towards the edges/corners but far enough away from their opponent for a winner/set up a winner. We've all played those guys... the ones who just manages to hit it well in the court but out of your reach.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
Not generically high percentages, but given her skills, they are indeed high percentage shots. She's able to do it every match day in /day out.
There are the classic, old time players at my club who manage to hit hard flat shots within inches of the net all the time. Just their game. Not low percentage for them.
Also, because of her doubles experience, Hsieh can volley and is proficient at the net. How many WTA singles players are actually comfortable coming to the net?
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Watched Karolina Pliskova lose today at Wimbledon. #3 seed and she was awful at the net. Everytime she was brought in by her opponent her volleys were awful. Its sad in todays tennis world a top seed at Wimbledon can be a futile volleyer. Used to be you couldn't get out of the first round if you couldn't volley on grass.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Well, top seeds are also awful at underhanded serves.
King Kyrgios needs to take lessons from this MASTER
King Kyrgios needs to take lessons from this MASTER
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
The underhand serve will make a huge comeback if baseline grinders continue to hang back 30 feet behind the baseline. In the past the answer to that kind of depth was to serve and volley. Now it seems the safest option is to dink serve. Kyrgios is only the leading edge of a revolution.
As I like to say in tennis, for every tactic there is a counter. And right now the big counter for a deep returner is an underhand serve and more guys better learn it.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Stats look solid to me. 69% is a pretty good conversion rate, specially on 51 total net approaches.
But when you don't come to the net on your own terms (e.g.: opponent hit a drop shot and you barely get the ball over the net), you are probably not in a very good position to win the point anyway
What let Pliskova down today weren't her volleys, but her serve specially in crucial moments. Broken twice serving for the match, and then broken again to lose the match. I don't recall her net play being a big factor in any of those pivotal games
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J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Exactly. Get ready to be lobbed like a yo-yo !
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Stats look solid to me. 69% is a pretty good conversion rate, specially on 51 total net approaches.
But when you don't come to the net on your own terms (e.g.: opponent hit a drop shot and you barely get the ball over the net), you are probably not in a very good position to win the point anyway
What let Pliskova down today weren't her volleys, but her serve specially in crucial moments. Broken twice serving for the match, and then broken again to lose the match. I don't recall her net play being a big factor in any of those pivotal games
I don't think it was pivotal. I just thought the qualities of her volleys were poor. I agree that she lost because of critical failures serving. The stats indicate a close match which it was, and it came down to blowing it on the crucial points.
But my point was merely that I've been unimpressed with so many of the current generations volley abilities. Maybe this match stood out because the players were at the net more than usual so they had more opportunity to display weak net play.
The other sad part of wimbledon is that most matches have players getting to the net under 20 times.
Anyone who paints the lines like an artist has incredible skills.
Certainly not pushers.
If they decide to kill you with moonballs, it's because of your weakness, not theirs.
Try to give them some short balls, I'm sure they won't moonball them back, but rather go for at least well placed approach shots, or perhaps for winners.
Powderwombat
Semi-Pro
Hey TC can you post some video footage of yourself playing please?
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Wait...what's with all the split steps though!? WTA women never split step!
These women never got the memo either, but all kinds of versitility there, not just pushing.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I know some 4.5 players that are very good about painting lines and moving people around. We don't call them pushers. We just say they have an excellent "soft" game. They are talented to compete at those levels but they do so with variety, great placement, avoiding your wheelhouse. Very similar to Hsieh. That's so much different than the "pusher" who never challenges the lines or the net cord. These guys will hit incredibly difficult shots but just lower paced than the guy that thinks tennis has to be won by plowing the ball as hard as you can.
Look at that beautiful footwork. she moves like a cat.
WestboroChe
Hall of Fame
But she loses the point!
dominikk1985
Legend
She isn't a hard hitter but not really a defensive player as she tries to dictate the action with angles, taking it on the rise, deep corner shots and some junk. There are limits to her game of course but she isn't a classic retriever
Vox Rationis
Professional
@TimeToPlaySets I feel like you would "enjoy" this video of men's 4.0 sectionals from a few years ago. The guy in Gray on the right court is straight from your nightmares.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
The grey guy on the right actually has polished perfect strokes compared to what I've seen at 4.0
He does lob a bunch on his BH (love it!), but he is a fairly vanilla topspin player otherwise.
He has a nice serve as well, not a dink tap 4.0 serve
He does lob a bunch on his BH (love it!), but he is a fairly vanilla topspin player otherwise.
He has a nice serve as well, not a dink tap 4.0 serve
Vox Rationis
Professional
I honestly don't have the slightest clue of what you mean by pusher because you've often just been describing good, crafty players.
Pro Kenneth
Rookie
That explains why (by forum lore) everyone in Usta leagues is a pusher or sandbagger: they either have more precision or power than me. They could not possibly have ever fairly beat me, because I am the best (at 3,0 level at my local courts). They must be one of those two categories. That explains it ... Whew, still the best! (Despite my 1-20 record)
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Guy with ugly choppy hacky bunty strokes
crushing a guy with smooth natural looking correct strokes.
This to me is why tennis is the most incredible sport of them all.
crushing a guy with smooth natural looking correct strokes.
This to me is why tennis is the most incredible sport of them all.
eelhc
Hall of Fame
Not sure what argument this is making but doing some cursory analysis...
$7M in prize money since turning pro in 2001 (18 years) + whatever sponsorship money she earns which I don't think is all that much for her but let's say the total she's earned in 18 years is $10M minus expenses for travel, coaches, PT, taxes in multiple jurisdictions, etc, etc...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...becoming-the-world-s-631st-best-tennis-player
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnis...tennis-vs-basketball-comparison/#22374c5ef440
I think Hseih's earnings allowed her to remain on the tour and maybe collect a bit of a nest egg but she certainly ain't rich. After she retires she'll probably make a decent living running clinics or coaching in Taiwan.
As someone who has a graduate degree in STEM and having had a decent career in tech, there's maybe several dozen Tennis pros I would trade places with FINANCIALLY over an entire 40+ year career (from Juniors through retirement). After 18 years, as I was entering my 40s, I was probably much wealthier than Hseih as I suspect most of my peers were. Professional tennis is a glamorous career but not a lucrative one outside the top players.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
You're missing the point.
This should be in everyone’s signature block. TTPS truly has no life or clue. Just posts to have something to do
Powderwombat
Semi-Pro
Unless you hit the snot out of the ball every single time and absolutely cream it with 1 inch of net clearance you're a pusher according to TTPS.
TimeToPlaySets
Legend
Not true. Also, I have a lot of respect for pushers. They know how to win tennis.
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